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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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CrunchyB

Member
So in your opinion (or the opinion of anyone else reading this), would it be better to read the two books merged into one, or read them each separately? If spoilers aren't an issue, then the only problem would be how it affects pacing.

It's probably not worth the trouble. Just read the books separately.

Man, I wonder how much of the stuff that fans pick up on GRRM actually intended. If it was just one or two posts like those, I'd believe it, but there are so many posts that go so deeply into themes and character arcs and relationships that it just seems impossible that this story is just THAT thought out.

Because of internet forums a lot of people are piecing together secrets that Martin only intended 1/100 people to get. Remember, back in '96 when GoT first came out this was a non-issue and he could throw out tonnes of hints and be confident almost nobody would "get" it.

In order to counter this development, in ADWD he added tons of obfuscation and red herrings. The Pink Letter is something of a masterpiece, it's obviously not entirely true, but makes just enough sense to make you wonder what is going on. Marvelous :)
 
Because of internet forums a lot of people are piecing together secrets that Martin only intended 1/100 people to get. Remember, back in '96 when GoT first came out this was a non-issue and he could throw out tonnes of hints and be confident almost nobody would "get" it.

You say this like it's a new development and people on the internet haven't been doing it from the beginning. I only joined in after ACOK was released, and the internet had already broken down and analyzed these these books.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
Question: Why did that Darkstar guy fuck over Arianne and Arys while they were trying to take Mycerlla wherever? Why did he try to kill her? I never understood his motivation or what he was doing. It seemed like he just committed a random act of dickery for the hell of it then rode off into the sunset.
 
Question: Why did that Darkstar guy fuck over Arianne and Arys while they were trying to take Mycerlla wherever? Why did he try to kill her? I never understood his motivation or what he was doing. It seemed like he just committed a random act of dickery for the hell of it then rode off into the sunset.

He believed (probably correctly), that the way to provoke the iron throne (the lannisters) to invade dorne (his goal - war) was to not crown myrcella, but to kill her. Read his exchanges with arianne on their journey. His actions make total sense when you read what he says.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
He believed (probably correctly), that the way to provoke the iron throne (the lannisters) to invade dorne (his goal - war) was to not crown myrcella, but to kill her. Read his exchanges with arianne on their journey. His actions make total sense when you read what he says.

Interesting. I'll have to read that part again. I may have glazed over while reading some parts of AFFC.
 
Interesting. I'll have to read that part again. I may have glazed over while reading some parts of AFFC.

It took me a reread. Think of darkstar as sharing some of the ideas first shared by the sand snakes. All of the dornish we meet seem to want various things but many of them seem to share this sense of pride in dorne's ability to stand up to anyone. Doran is realistic - see his comments about the young dragon (targaryen conqueror of dorne) overstating the prowess of the dornish armies.
 

Veelk

Banned
DNW more incest even if it was considered "normal" back in that time. lol.

It's considered normal now in many places in the world, including some parts in the US. Well, maybe not normal, but it's perfectly legal. It'd just be weird because they were raised together as brother and sister.
 

suzu

Member
Yeah, you're right. My problem with it is that they were raised as siblings. I'd still feel that way even if they weren't blood related.

It's why it would irk more than if Jon and Dany were to get together, haha.
 
Or mostly anything outside of the Literature sub-forum.

I like a lot of the discussion/theories actually, it's just that everything Jon or Sansa related exposes people who seem to want the series to be the most generic fantasy possible (Jon is gonna be the king and kill the Others, then bring the realm together as the true heir of Rhaegar with his queen Dany at his side uguuuu).

Lately I've been reading over the various theories surrounding the battle for Winterfell, which is definitely what I'm anticipating the most about TWOW. This one especially has been on my mind

The northmen inside and outside Winterfell. Conspiration?
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.ph...n-inside-and-outside-winterfell-conspiration/

The basic idea is that the North is gearing up to betray the Boltons, and the possibility of a second Northern army outside of Winterfell somewhere (problematic given the weather of course). I definitely think the Northerners will betray Bolton, the question is how. Perhaps Manderly brought Stannis' sword back to Winterfell as a ruse, and Ramsay wrote that manic letter as a means of threat and boast. Meanwhile Stannis waits to be let into the castle.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.ph...n-entrance-to-winterfell-and-sack-the-castle/
 

Cromat

Member
I like a lot of the discussion/theories actually, it's just that everything Jon or Sansa related exposes people who seem to want the series to be the most generic fantasy possible (Jon is gonna be the king and kill the Others, then bring the realm together as the true heir of Rhaegar with his queen Dany at his side uguuuu).

After Mass Effect 3, I think it's reasonable to want a predictable but satisfying conclusion instead of some convoluted 'twist'.
 

John Dunbar

correct about everything
Question: Why did that Darkstar guy fuck over Arianne and Arys while they were trying to take Mycerlla wherever? Why did he try to kill her? I never understood his motivation or what he was doing. It seemed like he just committed a random act of dickery for the hell of it then rode off into the sunset.

because he is of the night.
 

bluemax

Banned
Man, I wonder how much of the stuff that fans pick up on GRRM actually intended. If it was just one or two posts like those, I'd believe it, but there are so many posts that go so deeply into themes and character arcs and relationships that it just seems impossible that this story is just THAT thought out.

Probably very little since George is a terrible planner and has been mostly making this story up as he goes along. If he was more apt to plan and make notes then I'd believe it, but a lot of this is just incidental.


It's best to ignore all discussion on Westeros.org

Fixed. Those people are grade A nutjobs.
 

Frost_Ace

Member
Probably very little since George is a terrible planner and has been mostly making this story up as he goes along. If he was more apt to plan and make notes then I'd believe it, but a lot of this is just incidental.




Fixed. Those people are grade A nutjobs.

WUT.
 

bengraven

Member
Probably very little since George is a terrible planner and has been mostly making this story up as he goes along. If he was more apt to plan and make notes then I'd believe it, but a lot of this is just incidental.
.


You're fucking kidding me about planning right?

These are some of the most dense novels I've ever read with hundreds of plotlines, histories, bloodlines, cameos, seemingly trivial but important small moments...

Reading these books and trying to piece together everything is like trying to 100% a videogame and always finding one more thing you thought you grabbed.

You can't tell me he doesn't plan at least 75% of this shit.

Besides, he has said he knows all the major and some of the secondary characters fates and has since the very beginning.
 
GRRM is a discovery writer that doesn't outline or plan in detail, he himself has said it a thousand times. He knows the destination, but not all of the journey to get there. Calling him a terrible planner is too harsh, though the major structural issues he's run into after ASOS show the dangers of discovering writing epic fantasy novels. If he had mapped things out and had more than a vague notion of a 5 year gap, the series may have been done by now. But that's not how GRRM writes.

These are some of the most dense novels I've ever read with hundreds of plotlines, histories, bloodlines, cameos, seemingly trivial but important small moments...
And he's invented that stuff as he's gone along. He's been writing ASOIAF for almost 2 decades now so he's built up a bunch of stuff like that, but he didn't do that before he started writing the books or while writing AGOT. There was no masterplan or outline, he started with a scene about direwolves and kept on going.
 

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Did George ever actually write any "5 year gap" material, or was it always just a vague plan? If he did write it, I think it would be cool if he eventually released some of it. I'm curious to see how that would have worked out.
 
Did George ever actually write any "5 year gap" material, or was it always just a vague plan? If he did write it, I think it would be cool if he eventually released some of it. I'm curious to see how that would have worked out.

He did write some material, it wasn't until a few years post ASOS that he scrapped the 5 year gap.
 

Tacitus_

Member
You're fucking kidding me about planning right?

These are some of the most dense novels I've ever read with hundreds of plotlines, histories, bloodlines, cameos, seemingly trivial but important small moments...

Reading these books and trying to piece together everything is like trying to 100% a videogame and always finding one more thing you thought you grabbed.

You can't tell me he doesn't plan at least 75% of this shit.

Besides, he has said he knows all the major and some of the secondary characters fates and has since the very beginning.

He calls his writing style a 'gardening style'. Basically he plants the plotlines and has a vague idea how they're going to happen and then makes it up as he goes along. That's why ADWD took so long since he had no idea how he could get the characters in position for the next book.
 

Veelk

Banned
You know, just because he doesn't plan stuff out doesn't necessarily mean he isn't aware of all these very subtle characterizations and whatnot. We cannot possibly know he made sansa and just thought "She's going to be the stereotypical princess that later goes with littlefinger and then *does whatever she is going to do in the next two books here*" and then built the character from there, fully aware of each thing that he is adding to her. Or if he thought out all her relationships with every character out and then began writing the story, but didn't literally think out the exact dialouge and mannerisms of how the relationship will play out. That'd still be winging it, imo.

However, what I'm asking is if he is a doing all these subtle things intentionally. Like, even if he didn't plan it out, is he aware of how he made the relationship between Sansa and Jon or is this just coincidence and nothing will come of it? For a guy who claims to not plan things out, he puts in all these prophecies and the hundreds of scattered hints about things like the Red Wedding. This proves that he does have a certain amount planned out, but I can't help but marvel at the sheer number of predictions that fans have made by picking up what seem to be subtle but believable hints. It's just...there's so much of this stuff, it's almost unbelievable that one person can keep track of all this stuff without writing it down or anything. So when I'm looking at this Jon and Sansa analysis, what the person is saying really does make sense, but with the hundreds of other things that GRRM has hinted at, I'm beginning to think that either a good deal of them must be completely off base or looking too much into the text...or GRRM is some kind of superhuman, in which case I wish to kill him and eat him so I may gain his power.
 

bluemax

Banned
You're fucking kidding me about planning right?

These are some of the most dense novels I've ever read with hundreds of plotlines, histories, bloodlines, cameos, seemingly trivial but important small moments...

Reading these books and trying to piece together everything is like trying to 100% a videogame and always finding one more thing you thought you grabbed.

You can't tell me he doesn't plan at least 75% of this shit.

Besides, he has said he knows all the major and some of the secondary characters fates and has since the very beginning.

This is a guy who took a 3 book series and has somehow turned it into 5 books than need upwards of 8 to possibly finish in a coherent manner. So no, I'm not kidding. The guy has repeatedly said he doesn't have notes or outlines, that the reason he takes so long is because he is basically thinking this shit up as he writes it and sometimes he works his way into corners and has to start over.

He's incredibly disorganized and unprofessional and likely got really lucky with his first 3 books and probably won't ever recreate that magic.
 

Veelk

Banned
This is a guy who took a 3 book series and has somehow turned it into 5 books than need upwards of 8 to possibly finish in a coherent manner. So no, I'm not kidding. The guy has repeatedly said he doesn't have notes or outlines, that the reason he takes so long is because he is basically thinking this shit up as he writes it and sometimes he works his way into corners and has to start over.

He's incredibly disorganized and unprofessional and likely got really lucky with his first 3 books and probably won't ever recreate that magic.

Tolkien originally intended Lord of the Rings to be shorter than The Hobbit. Was he disorganized as well?
 

NawidA

Banned
Let me let yall in a little secret:
Writing fiction IS winging it. There are different ways to wing it, but you're still winging it.
 

gdt

Member
This is a guy who took a 3 book series and has somehow turned it into 5 books than need upwards of 8 to possibly finish in a coherent manner. So no, I'm not kidding. The guy has repeatedly said he doesn't have notes or outlines, that the reason he takes so long is because he is basically thinking this shit up as he writes it and sometimes he works his way into corners and has to start over.

He's incredibly disorganized and unprofessional and likely got really lucky with his first 3 books and probably won't ever recreate that magic.

Jesus christo.

Planning the whole thing out isn't inherently better than making it up as you go along. Which Martin clearly didn't do.
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
This is a guy who took a 3 book series and has somehow turned it into 5 books than need upwards of 8 to possibly finish in a coherent manner. So no, I'm not kidding. The guy has repeatedly said he doesn't have notes or outlines, that the reason he takes so long is because he is basically thinking this shit up as he writes it and sometimes he works his way into corners and has to start over.

He's incredibly disorganized and unprofessional and likely got really lucky with his first 3 books and probably won't ever recreate that magic.

Except this series would never have worked as a trilogy. In that original reckoning he says the first book would have ended with the Red Wedding. Absolutely impossible.

He didn't take a 3 book story and bungle it into 7 or 8. He made a story that was perhaps inherently cumbersome from the getgo.
 

Randdalf

Member
With this kind of story you have to make it up as you go along really, it's difficult to have some really detailed plan of what's going to happen along the way as you might have different ideas or want to change things. In any case, he's not entirely making it up, he knows how it ends and the major plotlines occur, it's the minor character storylines he does on the fly.
 

Atolm

Member
If I'm not mistaken, lately GRRM has a few assistants, who started as great fans of ASOIAF, and they help him with hints, subtle clues, to fix incoherences and so on.
 

CassSept

Member
It is known.

It is known.

(Elio and Linda of westeros.org, right?)


Did George ever actually write any "5 year gap" material, or was it always just a vague plan? If he did write it, I think it would be cool if he eventually released some of it. I'm curious to see how that would have worked out.

He did write some material, it wasn't until a few years post ASOS that he scrapped the 5 year gap.

If I recall correctly he only scrapped the 5 year gap after a year or so of writing, then started doing AFFC, rewriting and rewriting everything, splitting books, rewriting, moving plotlines between books, that's why it took so long.
 
in the past few days i have been watching the show on hbo go. its pretty good and broadly similar to the books, but i have a few sorta general questions since i have only read the books once and dont remember them perfectly.

are many of the secondary characters composites? some of the characters seem to take more actions than they did in the book. like they are getting some other characters stuff as well.

i dont remember ros from the books but i know there are several whores so it could just be that i am forgetting. guess the question is: is she in the books at all? does she eventually become a composite of someone else, like shae?

is stuff that was subtle in the books more obvious? i feel like some of the stuff we were supposed to figure out on our own has been made more apparent. one example of this is theon. in the books i dont remember them making it quite as apparent that he is a hostage and excluded from the family. like we obviously know he is a hostage in the books, but he seems to be more or less by the starks kids sides, while in the show he is called a pariah or whatever in pretty much every scene. there are other times i have gotten this feeling, but this is the first that springs to mind.

i do plan to do a reread, but probably not immediately. definitely before the next book, but i guess i have plenty of time for that.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
It is known.

(Elio and Linda of westeros.org, right?)






If I recall correctly he only scrapped the 5 year gap after a year or so of writing, then started doing AFFC, rewriting and rewriting everything, splitting books, rewriting, moving plotlines between books, that's why it took so long.

I believe there are also several rewrites of the DwD Meereenese plot based on Quentyn arriving to the city at different times in the plot. He supposedly rewrites a lot, so there's a ton of discarded material.
in the past few days i have been watching the show on hbo go.  its pretty good and broadly similar to the books, but i have a few sorta general questions since i have only read the books once and dont remember them perfectly.




are many of the secondary characters composites? some of the characters seem to take more actions than they did in the book.  like they are getting some other characters stuff as well.




i dont remember ros from the books but i know there are several whores so it could just be that i am forgetting.  guess the question is: is she in the books at all?  does she eventually become a composite of someone else, like shae?




is stuff that was subtle in the books more obvious?  i feel like some of the stuff we were supposed to figure out on our own has been made more apparent.  one example of this is theon.  in the books i dont remember them making it quite as apparent that he is a hostage and excluded from the family.  like we obviously know he is a hostage in the books, but he seems to be more or less by the starks kids sides, while in the show he is called a pariah or whatever in pretty much every scene.  there are other times i have gotten this feeling, but this is the first that springs to mind.




i do plan to do a reread, but probably not immediately.  definitely before the next book, but i guess i have plenty of time for that.




Yes, the show has lots of composites and Ros is entirely made up. As for the comments on Theon, I wouldn't say stuff is made obvious with him, just that he's given more of a focus in the show. His ostracization is made more apparent, but at the same time they also flesh out his friendship with Robb more and in season 2 delve more into his decision to betray him.
 

hemtae

Member
i dont remember ros from the books but i know there are several whores so it could just be that i am forgetting. guess the question is: is she in the books at all? does she eventually become a composite of someone else, like shae?

is stuff that was subtle in the books more obvious? i feel like some of the stuff we were supposed to figure out on our own has been made more apparent. one example of this is theon. in the books i dont remember them making it quite as apparent that he is a hostage and excluded from the family. like we obviously know he is a hostage in the books, but he seems to be more or less by the starks kids sides, while in the show he is called a pariah or whatever in pretty much every scene. there are other times i have gotten this feeling, but this is the first that springs to mind.

Ros was not in the books.

I think that the whole not subtle thing from the TV show comes from them showing scenes where no POV characters are present like Renly and Loras and the scenes with Varys and Littlefinger talking.
 
Yes, the show has lots of composites and Ros is entirely made up. As for the comments on Theon, I wouldn't say stuff is made obvious with him, just that he's given more of a focus in the show. His ostracization is made more apparent, but at the same time they also flesh out his friendship with Robb more and in season 2 delve more into his decision to betray him.

Ros was not in the books.

I think that the whole not subtle thing from the TV show comes from them showing scenes where no POV characters are present like Renly and Loras and the scenes with Varys and Littlefinger talking.

thanks guys. renly and loras is another thing they made more obvious. i dont think i picked up on that in the books myself and if i did, it was much later than it is made obvious in the show.

i am midway through the first season, so i guess ill see what you mean about the second season. in the first it just seems so much more obvious that he is pining for the iron islands and that thats where his allegiances are than it was to me in the book. then again maybe i am just dense and have the advantage of hindsight at this point.

since you mentioned littlefinger, do we know his endgame yet? his ultimate plan? i know it is it to have sansa and harry the heir marry. then he will be their hand or whatever of the vale and the north and since the vale has the only army left march on the rest of the world?
 

Pecan1

Banned
GRRM skipped the five year gap in the books and just waited that long after AFFC in the real world. More realistic

Prob be a similiar wait for WOW
 

Wh0 N0se

Member
Yay! Finally finished reading the whole topic!!!! Can now post here! I finished the books last year after buying them once I watched the pilot for the series but I decided to read the thread once I had finished just to see what had been discussed.

I've got a couple of questions, I don't know if some of these have been discussed before ADWD came out though:

Am I right in saying that the guy in AFFC who meets Brienne and is looking for Sansa ends up at the Vale at the end of the book? If so that could be important in the future, I think his name was Ser Creighton? Although looking through the Appendix I'm not sure now, they look like 2 different people.

Can someone explain the Maggie the Frog Prophecy to me and how it basically says that Tommen and Myrcella are going to die before Cersei, I know it says 'Golden their shrouds' but I don't understand how that means they'll die before her.

And on a final note, reading through the thread I noticed that there's a lot of hate for Littlefinger, he's one of my favourite characters and I was wondering if there were any characters that any of you like that most people don't. I.E people like Ramsay Bolton/Snow or Joffrey.
 

CassSept

Member
Can someone explain the Maggie the Frog Prophecy to me and how it basically says that Tommen and Myrcella are going to die before Cersei, I know it says 'Golden their shrouds' but I don't understand how that means they'll die before her.

I think it's believed that "gold their shrouds" = they will die as king/queen, as in the shroud covering the coffin.

Personally, I don't really buy it.
 

Rei_Toei

Fclvat sbe Pnanqn, ru?
Yay! Finally finished reading the whole topic!!!! Can now post here! I finished the books last year after buying them once I watched the pilot for the series but I decided to read the thread once I had finished just to see what had been discussed.

I've got a couple of questions, I don't know if some of these have been discussed before ADWD came out though:

Am I right in saying that the guy in AFFC who meets Brienne and is looking for Sansa ends up at the Vale at the end of the book? If so that could be important in the future, I think his name was Ser Creighton? Although looking through the Appendix I'm not sure now, they look like 2 different people.

Can someone explain the Maggie the Frog Prophecy to me and how it basically says that Tommen and Myrcella are going to die before Cersei, I know it says 'Golden their shrouds' but I don't understand how that means they'll die before her.

And on a final note, reading through the thread I noticed that there's a lot of hate for Littlefinger, he's one of my favourite characters and I was wondering if there were any characters that any of you like that most people don't. I.E people like Ramsay Bolton/Snow or Joffrey.

You read almost a 100 pages of this? Damn, son.
 
Am I right in saying that the guy in AFFC who meets Brienne and is looking for Sansa ends up at the Vale at the end of the book? If so that could be important in the future, I think his name was Ser Creighton? Although looking through the Appendix I'm not sure now, they look like 2 different people.

IIRC, his name was Ser Shadrich the Mouse (or something like that). I completely missed over him on my first read, but definitely picked up on my second. I'm sure he will be important in the future. He did seem to have a pretty good head on his shoulders when he talked to Brienne.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
Hah, I kind of forgot about Victarion and the Ironborn and apparently Martin almost did too until the end of ADWD.

I've never really cared about the shit going on with the Iron Islands. Outside of Theon they all mostly seem like one-dimensional caricatures of pirates/marauders. Everything about them seems over-the-top, like they're all trying too much to be hard asses. Just about everything about them and their culture was done better by the Dothraki.
 

suzu

Member
And on a final note, reading through the thread I noticed that there's a lot of hate for Littlefinger, he's one of my favourite characters and I was wondering if there were any characters that any of you like that most people don't. I.E people like Ramsay Bolton/Snow or Joffrey.

I like Theon and Littlefinger, haha. I don't browse many ASOIAF related discussions, so I don't really know about the hate for him.

I'm sure there are people out there that like Ramsay Bolton (boo this man!).
I have a feeling fangirls will jump on this when he shows up on the show because of Iwan Rheon playing him. Oh man, I can totally see the horrible shipping now. lol.
 

tmdorsey

Member
.
I have a feeling fangirls will jump on this when he shows up on the show because of Iwan Rheon playing him. Oh man, I can totally see the horrible shipping now. lol.

Well if they go into the "game" he uses to name his dogs, I'm sure that will immediately end any of that.
 
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