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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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I find it hard to believe Martin would feel rushed to properly close all the major story beats within the confines of at least 2000 pages. (assuming at least 1000 for the next to books)

Given the pacing of and amount of filler in AFFC and ADWD, the next two books would need to be drastically different than those two to complete the series. It's possible of course, but given the turns his writing style has taken over the past decade, I don't see it happening.
 
Given the pacing of and amount of filler in AFFC and ADWD, the next two books would need to be drastically different than those two to complete the series. It's possible of course, but given the turns his writing style has taken over the past decade, I don't see it happening.

Well, the way I see it, AFFC (and ADWD to a lesser extent) was bloated because of all the new characters being introduced. There was a lot that needed to be set up for these new characters. My expectations i guess are that we won't get any new POVs from here on out, or if we do, they will be with already well established characters (I think it is about time we get a Littlefinger/Varys POV) in unfamiliar territory. (No more Martells in Dorne... No more Asha King's Moot)

If Martin does decide to start bloating Winds with new POVs, than yeah I could definitely see at least the need for 3000 pages, but hopefully his editors, his publisher and of course he himself realized the fans don't need any more random POVs of uninteresting characters (not to say the Dorne stuff was completely uninteresting, but the Kings Moot certainly was). Full speed ahead from this point on is my hope. Give us the remaining starks, give us Tyrion, give us Brienne and Jaime, Give us Littlefinger and Varys, and Ill even take Connington again. But we don't need a Tommen POV, or a Margeary POV, or Milk Sucking Robin POVs...
 

daripad

Member
We need a Loras POV when he gets memories of Renly, and we would now where the fuck he is and what is he doing, maybe letting Willas tyrell appear to see what he is up to. And of course Olena could reappear with more bitching
 

Monocle

Member
Given the pacing of and amount of filler in AFFC and ADWD, the next two books would need to be drastically different than those two to complete the series. It's possible of course, but given the turns his writing style has taken over the past decade, I don't see it happening.
If he can resist the temptation to get distracted by extraneous nonsense like the Dorne and Ironborn stuff, it's perfectly possible. He should save that sort of material for offshoots from the main series.
 

daripad

Member
I think I'm the only one who liked the dorne and ironborn stuff, but I hated the Brienne nonsense, it was stretched to hell with nothing interesting on it; same goes to Quentyn, his POV was just completely unnecessary and he didn't do anything of importance
 
It's not just things like the Ironborn or Dorne, the size of individual chapters has ballooned and almost every chapter has plenty of unnecessary words. Look at Tyrion or Quentyn's ADWD chapters if want to see poorly edited bloat. And that's the type of stuff that I'm worried about.
 

Dysun

Member
I could have done without any Aeron or Brienne chapters, those are the only ones I really didn't like reading.

Dorne I thought was done pretty well except for Quentyn, but it was only 4 chapters so it wasn't really that bad
 

daripad

Member
I could have done without any Aeron or Brienne chapters, those are the only ones I really didn't like reading.

Dorne I thought was done pretty well except for Quentyn, but it was only 4 chapters so it wasn't really that bad
Yeah, 4 long and boring chapters of a guy no one cared about, with 0 personality
 
Quentyn's last chapter is the only one that served any purpose. It felt like his POV was a relic from before GRRM figured out the knot and just was never cut for some reason.
 

daripad

Member
Quentyn's last chapter is the only one that served any purpose. It felt like his POV was a relic from before GRRM figured out the knot and just was never cut for some reason.
Freeing the dragons? It could have been told by Barristan, like saying "the dragons are unchained by that dornishman" or something like that when he sees his body
 

Fiftyeight

Neo Member
I couldn't help but laugh at the end of his last chapter. The entire passage was building up to be something profound and heroic...

Nope, you're on fire, brah.
 
I find it hard to believe Martin would feel rushed to properly close all the major story beats within the confines of at least 2000 pages. (assuming at least 1000 for the next to books)

That sounds like a lot of pages. But then you consider the actual story:

You have Sam in Oldtown with Jaqen and Sarella Sanda. You have to have the whole story with what Jaqen/the Faceless Men are doing there, why Sarella is in Oldtown, the whole storyline with Marwyn's group and their conspiracy, the actual main faction of the maesters (and the last chapter in Feast plus Lady Dustin's comments in Dance make it sound like there will be some plots and conspiracies with the Archmaesters to learn about), and learning more about the idea that most historical records in Westeros are fake, not to mention Sam actually studying and becoming a Maester. Plus, at some point you're probably going to have Sam learning about Jon's death and the situation on the Wall, more stuff with Gilly, dealing with his family situation, and eventually probably returning to the Wall/playing a role in the final battle.

Arya has all of her training with the Faceless Men to undergo, and judging by where her story ended in Dance, that will probably be pretty significant. During this time, there's also going to be more information about what the Faceless Men's goals are, and what role they've played in historical events. Then Arya is going to have to eventually have something happen with Needle and Nymeria, her skinchanging abilities, and reunite with the rest of the storyline in some way. (She doesn't necessarily have to reunite with Sansa/Bran/Rickon/Jon, but she has to eventually connect with some plot point)

The Meeren storyline has a lot going on, but at the very least, we have the upcoming battle with all of the various forces from Volantis etc, the situation with the Pale Mare, Barristan trying to deal with stuff in the city, finding out the truth behind the Harpy situation and who was responsible for the poisoning attempt, etc. You also have Tyrion and Jorah with the Second Sons and how they're going to get them to change sides. Eventually, they'll have to cross paths with Dany (and probably Aegon for Tyrion, at least), and Tyrion has to return to Westeros, deal with Casterly Rock, meet back up with Bronn in some way. There's probably a lot more going on with the Second Sons, too, given how much time they've gotten. Then you have Victarion's incoming arrival, Moqorro's presence with him and what his goals are, the purpose the Dusky Woman, the use of the dragonbinding horn, and an eventual showdown between Victarion and Euron. Plus, there's been too much teasing not to have some meeting between Victarion and Dany at some point. Dany herself has to deal with the Dothraki in some way, likely by fulfilling the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy about uniting all the Dothraki (it was probably always about her and was simply erroneously read by the crones as being her son), and then return to Mereen in whatever shape it is in. Given that Martin said that Maggo would play a significant role in the book, and we've heard enough mentions of Khal Pono to think he'll show up again, I think uniting all the Dothraki won't just be a two chapter thing.

Oh, and even after all of that stuff in Mereen is resolved, Barristan has already promised the Windblown to help them capture Pentos (and we're probably going to find out more about the Tattered Prince's past via this), and there's a lot of discussion in Volantis about an impending slave revolt that has the nobility worried and slaves waiting for Dany to come and free them.

In the south, you have Dorne's eventual learning about Quentyn's death, plus how they'll react to Aegon and deal with him. Arianne's storyline has a lot of ways it could go, but she's probably going to marry eventually and also have to take over from her father, because I can't see Doran surviving the series with his health. There's still the mystery about why Darkstar tried to kill Myrcella, and why Doran considers him the most dangerous man in Dorne. There has to be more than meets the eyes here. There's a lot going on with Connington and Aegon as well. You have questions of Aegon's past that will eventually come up, as well as him learning how to rule and maturing. Plus, there's that impending outbreak of greyscale Jon is sure to cause, and we hear a lot about greyscale in both the Tyrion/Connington chapters as well as from Val.

Brienne/Jaime/Stoneheart have to have their current situation resolved, and then proceed on in some manner. I'm not really sure where any of these characters are ultimately headed, and there's probably the least difficulty in terms of resolving their stories in a timely fashion here. The Brotherhood probably still have a significant role to play, especially with Tom stationed in Riverrun. I would guess that Gendry has some further role to play, and we'll probably hear about Ned Dayne and his splinter group at some point in the future. The eventual changing of hands of Riverrun, the whereabouts of the Blackfish, and what happens to Edmure in his captivity (and inevitable release) all sort of fit in here.

Then you have Sansa's storyline in the Vale with Littlefinger, and the possibility of her being crowned as Queen. We're going to meet Harry the Heir eventually, and Bronze Yohn's opposition to Littlefinger will come to a head. We also know from the end of Feast that Ser Shadrich, who was looking for Sansa, has found his way into Littlefinger's service. This would also be a logical place for the Blackfish to pop up, and there's the question of what Robert Arryn's fate will be, and how Sansa will come into her own as a player in the game of thrones (which seems the logic place her story is heading).

In the Iron Islands, you have the Damphair running around trying to raise up a rebellion against Euron. This is probably going to go somewhere, and the past between the two characters is going to be revealed in some way. The Iron Islands story is probably the least difficult one to resolve in two books, but some significant changes will almost certainly be coming to the islands. The Shield Islands situation will also probably be addressed at some point in Winds.

At Winterfell, we have the questions about the Pink Letter's legitimacy, and the upcoming battle between Stannis and the Boltons, as well as Manderly's plans. Eventually, we're going to see the deaths of the Boltons and Freys, and find out more information about Lady Dustin and her past. Stannis still has a lot of stuff left to do, and now he has Theon and Asha with them. Dance sets up the possibility that Theon could be used to contest the Kingsmoot, and his redemption storyline, hearing from Bran in the weirwood, and connection with Jeyne Poole will be developed some, as well as Asha's plans to reform the Iron Islands. Then you have Davos heading off to Skagos to find Rickon and Osha. That alone will probably take some time, and then you have Davos bringing him back, meeting back up with Stannis, continuing as the hand, probably having some further interactions with Melisandre, and having some sort of contact with his wife and younger sons again.

The situation at the wall with the wildlings, Jon's death (and possibly coming back), Melisandre's motivations, etc is also really complex. This could fall out in a number of different ways, before even getting to Others eventually attacking, and us finding out what their deal is. Beyond the wall, we also have Bran and Bloodraven, the fate of the Reeds, seeing where Bran's story goes and what further information he can find out through his new powers, and learning what Bloodraven's motivations are and what the Children of the Forest are up to. Plus, Coldhands identity and role in all of this.

And then you have the shitstorm about to drop in King's Landing, with the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle and the upcoming trials. Robert Strong's identity has to get revealed in some way, Tommen is almost certainly going to die, we're probably going to get close to an all out war between Cersei and Mace, which will also have Nymeria Sand showing up in the midst of it, and the High Septon scheming for some purpose that we'll have to find out about eventually. Plus, Varys is still running around up to something in the city, Qyburn's whole deal remains a mystery, Loras's fate is very much up in the air, as is Aurane Waters, and not too far from King's Landing we have Bronn gathering up an army of sellswords.

And that's not even touching on everything. There's tons of other things that will come up, which I might have forgotten or just not put on the same scale as these things. And this is even if Martin doesn't introduce a single new plot point in the final books. I simply don't see any way that all of this could be put in ~2000 pages without it being a complete rush job with things being barely more than outline at times.
 

Fiftyeight

Neo Member
Rob McEllhenney totally threw down a potential spoiler about the Red Wedding during the Game of Thrones panel. Wonder if anyone who hasn't read the books caught it while watching.
 

Fiftyeight

Neo Member
In his first question to the actress who plays Catelyn Stark, he prefaces it by telling her she has had to endure or is about to endure the biggest losses of any other character. It's a small detail, but it speaks volumes.
 

bluemax

Banned
If he can resist the temptation to get distracted by extraneous nonsense like the Dorne and Ironborn stuff, it's perfectly possible. He should save that sort of material for offshoots from the main series.

More like if he can resist the temptation to work on Wild Cards, or go to conventions, or stand his fans up on Pizza Crawls, etc etc etc.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Does it bug anyone else that there are 8 Kingdoms in the "Seven Kingdoms"

  1. The North
  2. The Vale
  3. The Westerlands
  4. The Reach
  5. Stormlands
  6. Dorne
  7. Iron Islands
  8. Riverlands

Did they named their country before they took Dorne and never bothered to change the name? Or did they not consider the Riverlands a Kingdom?
 
Does it bug anyone else that there are 8 Kingdoms in the "Seven Kingdoms"

  1. The North
  2. The Vale
  3. The Westerlands
  4. The Reach
  5. Stormlands
  6. Dorne
  7. Iron Islands
  8. Riverlands

Did they named their country before they took Dorne and never bothered to change the name? Or did they not consider the Riverlands a Kingdom?
The Riverlands wasn't a kingdom, when Aegon landed it was ruled by the Ironborn (Harren the Black).
 

Crisco

Banned
Was watching episode 8 of season 2 last night, and noticed that they included that old warhorn in the cache of Dragonglass found at the fist. To me, that pretty much confirms that it must be the Horn of Winter, and it will play a pretty large role in the story. Of all the changes and oversights in season 2, to keep that one specific detail confirms it's significance to me.
 

TCRS

Banned
Yeah I wrote that in the other thread. It's a real shame. Their characters could have been a lot better, especially Cerseis imo. Peter Dinklage however already does a brilliant job with Tyrion.
 
We know the Mereen battle starts in Barriston's second chapter. Scope wise it seems like it'll be as big as Blackwater and span multiple POVs. The only question I have is how long will Dany be fucking around with the dothraki. Is she going back to the crones to unite all the khalasars, will she track down that khal she promised to kill...and time wise how will that effect Mereen. Will she return to the city by the middle of the books? I think so...

Likewise we know the Winterfell battle happens early too. Based on that, and the winter weather making a long battle/siege impossible, I think it's safe to say the confrontation will be resolved before the halfway mark. The aftermath: assuming Stannis wins the battle and deposes the Boltons, winter will pretty much slow everything to a crawl right? I want to see how Davos gets a ship through that weather...

Not everything will be resolved in TWOW but I think it's clear a lot of heavy lifting will be done. Cersei won't be on trial for the entire book, for instance.

Potential Cliff ends:
-Tommen dies, Cersei becomes queen and dies by the end
-Aegon becomes king, greyscale erupts. Connington dies
-Dany captures Pentos and sets off for Westeros or Asshai
-Arya returns to Westeros
-The Wall falls
-Tyrion...dunno, survives I guess. He'll meet Dany lol
 

RaidenZR

Member
Because Martin read it. I don't consider that a spoiler since it was supposed to be in ADWD.

We'll know who "won" the battle by the middle of the book IMO. I honestly believe Dany will torch it when she returns, due to greyscale.

The OP says anything that's not published yet in the actual, mainline books is supposed to be tagged. Dunno if it's enforced. A lot of us don't read or want to read the preview chapters. And those are also subject to change, so it's not without it's potential folly to assume they are 100% canon yet.
 
Can we expect Jaime to lose his hand during this season of Game of Thrones? I remember it happening in A Storm of Swords, but I can't remember in which half of the novel.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Must go east to go west?

But she already went East. She needs to Journey South to go North now, and find out the Summer Islands have the key to battling the Others, which turns out to be a combinations of really awesome bows and a huge ass supply of Vakarian Steal they traded for like a stone of Saffron 400 years ago.
 

Walshicus

Member
But she already went East. She needs to Journey South to go North now, and find out the Summer Islands have the key to battling the Others, which turns out to be a combinations of really awesome bows and a huge ass supply of Vakarian Steal they traded for like a stone of Saffron 400 years ago.

Vakarian Steel wouldn't work; it needs to be calibrated too often to be effective.
 
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