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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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Salvadora

Member
The Telegraph interviewed GRRM.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...-Thrones-Interview-with-George-RR-Martin.html
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He lives much more modestly than I would have assumed.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Shireen.

After that, it gets tricky. If you consider the Stannis line, the next would probably be one of the Estermonts, since they're his cousins from his maternal side, and I suppose Arianne and Trystane would have a claim through being Aegon's cousins, but we're getting into people who are pretty far removed from actual royal lines at this point.

I still say it goes to the Martells since they are the only other Nobel Family known to have Targaryen ancestors. Doran's Great Grandmother was the first Daenerys Targaryen, daughter of Ageon IV.
 

lingiii

Banned
ya'll still talking about laws like being Targaryen is a thing that matters. You gotta pay the Iron Price for the Iron Throne. Robert's Targaryen blood didn't give him claim to the throne, winning a war did. Tywin would've taken it right then except that Robert had more strength of arms.

I could see Littlefinger pulling enough strings to get himself seated, but I also and just WAITING for him to fly too close to the sun and come crashing down.
 
I am going for Jon Snow for Iron Throne!

Nobody will set on it. The Others will run wild, everybody will be dead. The Seven Kingdoms will cease to exist thrown into turmoil
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Shireen?

And Patchface as her husband

That probably is right, isn't it, although I'm not sure about what the 'rules' are for giving a woman the Iron Throne in Westeros.

Whoever takes it and has the biggest army to hold it.

I'm not asking who would just take it if they had a huge army, I just mean technically if there wasn't actively a war, someone would inherit it, right?

ya'll still talking about laws like being Targaryen is a thing that matters. You gotta pay the Iron Price for the Iron Throne. Robert's Targaryen blood didn't give him claim to the throne, winning a war did. Tywin would've taken it right then except that Robert had more strength of arms.

I could see Littlefinger pulling enough strings to get himself seated, but I also and just WAITING for him to fly too close to the sun and come crashing down.

It probably....helped that Robert had a clear claim to the Iron Throne of the people known to be alive at the time.

He doesn't spend any time at home ;b

I like seeing GRRM's blog posts that say he's in Santa Fe.
 
Was reading through some old GRRM posts from his livejournal and came across his big ADWD process explanation, from 2011. We've all read this before but it's more interesting now IMO.
The earliest partial in my files dates from January 2006. At that point I had 542 finished pages. Now, recall, it was June 2005 when I divided A FEAST FOR CROWS into two parallel books, and wrote my infamous (and, in retrospect, ill-considered) afterword "Meanwhile, Back at the Wall..." A FEAST FOR CROWS, as delivered, was 1063 pages in manuscript. At the time of the split, looking at all the Tyrion and Daenerys material that I'd removed, I figured I only had another 400 odd pages to go to have another book of equal length, which was likely what prompted me to say the next book would be along in a year. Famous last words, those. Never again.

Obviously, it took a lot longer than that. After I wrote that, I ended up spending much of the rest of 2005 doing promotion for FEAST. An American book tour. A Canadian book tour. A British book tour. A visit to Italy for the Lucca Games Show. All great, but all exhausting. I did get back home in between, and got some writing done, but probably not much. That page count of 542 finished pages in January 2006 could not have been much different from what I'd had in June 2005, when I split the books.

And the year or so that followed proved the folly of my prediction. The next partial I sent to Bantam is dated October 2007, and it is 472 pages long. Yes, in the year and a half between the two partials, I had managed to UNwrite some seventy pages. I was doing a lot more revision and rewriting -- and restructuring -- during this period than I was making forward progress.

But then I hit a good spell. In March 2008 I delivered another partial, and this one was 596 pages long. In May 2008, another: 684 pages this time. In December 2008, 774 pages, After that progress remained slow, but fairly steady. I won't say I wasn't still tearing things out, rewriting, restructuring, changing my mind... I was... but I was forging ahead as well, as the partials I sent to my editors testify. In September 2009, I sent them 998 pages. In January 2010 I passed the 1000 pages mark, and delivered 1038 pages. Now I was picking up some steam again. June of 2010, a partial of 1028 pages. August of 2010, 1332 pages, December of 2010, 1412 pages. By March of 2011, Kong was screeching and the biplanes were in the air, and I sent in the final partial, which weighed in at 1571 pages... but I still had some incomplete chapters, some that remained very rough, some that I didn't know whether to include or not. It was those that pushed the final count over 1600 and up near 1700 before the editorial changes and final sweat that I've detailed up above.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html

The entire thing could be bolded but the first reminds me of our current situation. I think it's safe to say Martin got very little done in the last half of 2011 due to the ADWD tour, which mirrors what happened in late 2005. Early 2012 was also pretty stacked with promotion, but Martin did note he was working on the book in a June 2012 post. I remember him not doing a late 2012 Europe visit due to being too busy writing as well.

Bottom line: if his progress on TWOW mirrors ADWD we're all fucked. But so far there's no reason to believe he's struggling with this book as he did with AFFC/ADWD thanks to the Mereenese Knot being cut. I'm sure he'll be rewriting shit due to being a perfectionist but I won't be worried until he suggests he's stuck.

I'd love to know how many pages of ADWD he moved to TWOW. He had 1700 pages of ADWD, removed 80 through editing, leaving 1620. So if you subtract the final ms total of ADWD (1510) you get 110 pages that I'm assuming were moved to TWOW (including the battles for Winterfell/Mereen); so he's starting out the gate with significantly fewer pages than the 542 he started ADWD with, assuming my calculations are right.
 
The raw amount of pages probably isn't as important as how much material GRRM chooses to scrap and rewrite over and over through the process of writing this book. 110 manuscript pages is pretty insignificant in the larger scheme of things, this is going to have to be another 400k+ word doorstopper if he's aiming to finish the series in two more books.
 

FootballFan

Member
I just hope the books are out before the show does catch up. Realistically, 2014 for The Winds of Winter and then he has to give us the ending of the series and give us the final book in 2017. Unless of course....he needs more books to finish the series.

Season 1 - 2011 A Game of Thrones
Season 2 - 2012 A Clash of Kings
Season 3 - 2013 A Storm of Swords 1
Season 4 - 2014 A Storm of Swords 2
Season 5 - 2015 A Feast for Crows
Season 6 - 2016 A Dance with Dragons
Season 7 - 2017 The Winds of Winter
Season 8 - 2018 'A Time for Wolves' aka the inferior 'A Dream of Spring'

The show can not possibly expand Feast and Dance into more than a single season each.

P.S.
The King in the North
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Plot twist, as Aemon lays there dying, he goes on telling the entity of the Tales of Dunk and Egg for a whole season.
 

ZeroRay

Member
Seems like the pressure of the show catching up finally got to George. Hopefully that means the next one comes out quicker. I'm positive TWoW will be another two season's worth of material. Though I don't know if the show can sustain that level of popularity for another 4 years to get to that point.
 
Martin is going to have to significantly change his approach to...work, if he wants to keep up. Right now he's working on what, 5 different projects? Plus talking to HBO about other shows, plus doing a bunch of speeches/appearances (most of which were scheduled years in advance).
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/appearances/

He gets away with it since all the various anthologies he works on wouldn't sell as well without his name on the cover, and while I respect the fact that he hasn't "sold out" and keeps his promises...at some point you have to learn how to say "no thanks." Looking at his 2013 schedule it's hard to find a decent period where he can get stuff done, outside of June-August; everything else is booked to crazy levels where he barely has time to rest before heading out again.

Let's assume he started with 110 pages at the beginning of 2012. By the end of that year let's be generous and say he wrote...300 pages in 2012. Say he writes 200 in 2013. That's 610 ms going into January 2014. I think 2014 is doable but jeez, I just depressed myself lol
 

Dresden

Member
2014 isn't happening, optimistically, I can see it squeezing into the end of 2015.

Still think the next two books (if they remain two) are going to hit 2016 and 2020.
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
2014 isn't happening, optimistically, I can see it squeezing into the end of 2015.

Still think the next two books (if they remain two) are going to hit 2016 and 2020.

I would be interesting if he just "happened" to stumble across the ending whilst writting tWoW and decided to just split his manuscript into tWoW and aDoS for something like a 2016/2017 release.
 

RaidenZR

Member
I'd love to know how many pages of ADWD he moved to TWOW. He had 1700 pages of ADWD, removed 80 through editing, leaving 1620. So if you subtract the final ms total of ADWD (1510) you get 110 pages that I'm assuming were moved to TWOW (including the battles for Winterfell/Mereen); so he's starting out the gate with significantly fewer pages than the 542 he started ADWD with, assuming my calculations are right.

There is a number floating out there. He said as much and I remember reading it... I don't think it was an earth-shatteringly large number, but my brain is telling me it was around the 200-350 range.

I just hope the books are out before the show does catch up. Realistically, 2014 for The Winds of Winter and then he has to give us the ending of the series and give us the final book in 2017. Unless of course....he needs more books to finish the series.

Season 1 - 2011 A Game of Thrones
Season 2 - 2012 A Clash of Kings
Season 3 - 2013 A Storm of Swords 1
Season 4 - 2014 A Storm of Swords 2
Season 5 - 2015 A Feast for Crows
Season 6 - 2016 A Dance with Dragons
Season 7 - 2017 The Winds of Winter
Season 8 - 2018 'A Time for Wolves' aka the inferior 'A Dream of Spring'

The show can not possibly expand Feast and Dance into more than a single season each.

P.S.
The King in the North

This is folly. Yes it can. There's plenty that actually does happen and there's plenty there to expand on in the TV show as well.
 
This is folly. Yes it can. There's plenty that actually does happen and there's plenty there to expand on in the TV show as well.

They could do it, it would just be bad television.


But really, AFFC/ADWD are almost structureless to begin with, it makes no sense to structure TV seasons after a specific book after season 3.
 

RaidenZR

Member
They could do it, it would just be bad television.


But really, AFFC/ADWD are almost structureless to begin with, it makes no sense to structure TV seasons after a specific book after season 3.

And they probably won't adapt it literally. They've been taking liberties here and there anyways, so there's no reason to suspect that won't continue to escalate. Structure is one thing but people who say nothing happened in those books are being sensationally dismissive.

I'm going through the two books a second time right now with this arrangement: http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a

Only a little ways in but so far it's very interesting and the pacing is obviously much different than it was just going from ASOS->AFFC. I feel like that was the big cold-water shock for people. The pacing is radically slower than Book 3... that AND the major excising and transporting of key characters out of one book and into the other, of course. That didn't help.
 
I'm pretty sure [AFFC+ADWD] can make three seasons in total, with some of the material from the beginning of TWOW (especially the stuff that chronologically overlaps with the final chapters) creeping in at the end.
 

Salvadora

Member
Martin is going to have to significantly change his approach to...work, if he wants to keep up. Right now he's working on what, 5 different projects? Plus talking to HBO about other shows, plus doing a bunch of speeches/appearances (most of which were scheduled years in advance).
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/appearances/

He gets away with it since all the various anthologies he works on wouldn't sell as well without his name on the cover, and while I respect the fact that he hasn't "sold out" and keeps his promises...at some point you have to learn how to say "no thanks." Looking at his 2013 schedule it's hard to find a decent period where he can get stuff done, outside of June-August; everything else is booked to crazy levels where he barely has time to rest before heading out again.

Let's assume he started with 110 pages at the beginning of 2012. By the end of that year let's be generous and say he wrote...300 pages in 2012. Say he writes 200 in 2013. That's 610 ms going into January 2014. I think 2014 is doable but jeez, I just depressed myself lol

It was depressing reading about his writing process.
When he writes, he starts by reading the previous day’s work, rewriting as he goes. He has files on his computer and scraps of paper around his study to remind him of characters’ biographies, historical events and places, but not as many as you might think. ‘It’s mostly in my head,’ he says. He has archival support from a superfan, Elio Garcia, who, with his wife, Linda, runs the fan site westeros.org. Martin emails Garcia in Sweden if he can’t remember a fact about his imagined world. ‘It’s amazing,’ Martin says. ‘He has a photographic memory. I think that he lives in that world more than I do.’
There is no omnipresent narrator in the books, which are written from the points of view of different characters – currently 16 – each with a distinctive voice (‘I’m going to have to kill some off, it’s too many’). ‘There’s always a bit of a roadblock when I change character. If I’m moving from Tyrion [a sharp-tongued dwarf, played in the HBO series by Peter Dinklage] to Arya [a nine-year-old tomboy played by Maisie Williams], then the first thing I do is re-read all the Arya chapters in the book, or the previous book, to get her voice back in my head.’
Sounds like even when he finds time to write he moves at a snail's pace.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
There is not enough in Feast and Dragon for two seasons of interesting television. Let's not even try to push 3. I still figure they'll have some of feast in the 2nd half of Storms, and Dance and Feast will be intertwined, duh.

I'm still expecting a big decline in the show after Storms finishes up, where I could see HBO cancelling the series. But he isn't finishing the series by the time the show ends. We'll be lucky if he has Winds of Winter out by then. If he hasn't decided that its impossible to finish the series in 2 books, and decides to make it 3.

Yeah, I'm a cynical cunt but hence a fan!
 

Aiii

So not worth it
It was depressing reading about his writing process.

Sounds like even when he finds time to write he moves at a snail's pace.

Hate to break this to you, but how else do you expect him to write an epic? You don't want the thing full of plot holes and incosistencies, do you?
 

John Dunbar

correct about everything
Stretching AFFC and ADWD to two or more seasons just seems like a terrible idea. Just one problem is the Others. If 6th or 7th season is the end of ADWD, that would mean that the viewers after watching the show for 6-7 years would still know shit about the Others or what they're doing, even though they appeared in the very first scene of the first episode of season one. I can see interest waning greatly long before that. Also, I recall the producers saying that 9 seasons is pretty much the absolute max the show will last, so to use 3 seasons for those two books and then finish the rest where something might actually happen in just 2 is pretty crazy.

Also, most of the actors have 6 season contracts, so costs will go up a lot if the show is still popular then, since they will want to get paid.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Stretching AFFC and ADWD to two or more seasons just seems like a terrible idea. Just one problem is the Others. If 6th or 7th season is the end of ADWD, that would mean that the viewers after watching the show for 6-7 years would still know shit about the Others or what they're doing, even though they appeared in the very first scene of the first episode of season one. I can see interest waning greatly long before that. Also, I recall the producers saying that 9 seasons is pretty much the absolute max the show will last, so to use 3 seasons for those two books and then finish the rest where something might actually happen in just 2 is pretty crazy.

Don't even need that.

Imagine three seasons for those two books.

"Why the fuck isn't Dany in Westros yet? YOU MEAN I HAVE TO WAIT THREE YEARS FOR THE BITCH TO GET THERE? FUCK THIS SHIT!"

I think they can pull one season off one season from where she ends in Storms to where she is in Dance.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
Don't even need that.

Imagine three seasons for those two books.

"Why the fuck isn't Dany in Westros yet? YOU MEAN I HAVE TO WAIT THREE YEARS FOR THE BITCH TO GET THERE? FUCK THIS SHIT!"

I think they can pull one season off one season from where she ends in Storms to where she is in Dance.

Yeah, and even then I can't see this season stacking up well against the ones that will have come before it.
 
Books 4 and 5 will probably work just fine (and be more exciting) if they intercut them in real time as opposed to doing one and then the other. And that's easily 2 seasons of material, if not three.
 
I just hope the books are out before the show does catch up. Realistically, 2014 for The Winds of Winter and then he has to give us the ending of the series and give us the final book in 2017. Unless of course....he needs more books to finish the series.

Season 1 - 2011 A Game of Thrones
Season 2 - 2012 A Clash of Kings
Season 3 - 2013 A Storm of Swords 1
Season 4 - 2014 A Storm of Swords 2
Season 5 - 2015 A Feast for Crows
Season 6 - 2016 A Dance with Dragons
Season 7 - 2017 The Winds of Winter
Season 8 - 2018 'A Time for Wolves' aka the inferior 'A Dream of Spring'

The show can not possibly expand Feast and Dance into more than a single season each.

P.S.
The King in the North

You're aware that Dance with Dragons is longer by page count than Storm of Swords, yes?

They could spend 3 seasons on each book and still make it compelling as hell, but of course budgets, actor commitments, and all that other stuff would get in the way.

Either way, the show has split from the story of the books to some degree at this point where I don't really think the meat of the books matters to them that much. It's like The Walking Dead, the general path is still the same, but the stuff that happens along the way keeps getting adjusted, changed, and reconfigured.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Yeah, and even then I can't see this season stacking up well against the ones that will have come before it.

If Winds is like Storms, and this is on a very big "if". I think the idea situation would be

Season 3 - All Storms
Season 4 - Rest of Storms, Beginning of Feast and Beginning of Dragons.
Season 5 - Rest of Feast and Dance, with some bits of Winds.
Season 6- Winds.

Books 4 and 5 will probably work just fine (and be more exciting) if they intercut them in real time as opposed to doing one and then the other. And that's easily 2 seasons of material, if not three.
Oh, they have to do that either way. LOL. You're not going to have a season without Tyrion and Dany. 2 of your 3 most popular characters.
 
You're aware that Dance with Dragons is longer by page count than Storm of Swords, yes?

They could spend 3 seasons on each book and still make it compelling as hell, but of course budgets, actor commitments, and all that other stuff would get in the way.

Either way, the show has split from the story of the books to some degree at this point where I don't really think the meat of the books matters to them that much. It's like The Walking Dead, the general path is still the same, but the stuff that happens along the way keeps getting adjusted, changed, and reconfigured.
Raw word count isn't telling in this case, not only due to the amount of filler and unnecessary words in ADWD, but also because the book will have to radically altered to be filmable on a TV budget.
 

TCRS

Banned
Why did they even start a TV show based on a story that isn't finished, knowing that the author takes a long time to finish his books? As much as I was excited about Season 1, I knew back then that that's a bad idea.
 
Why did they even start a TV show based on a story that isn't finished, knowing that the author takes a long time to finish his books? As much as I was excited about Season 1, I knew back then that that's a bad idea.
The show is making them money. As long as it stays that way, it doesn't really matter how slow GRRM is, they can just go on without waiting for him.
 

Blatz

Member
It makes me laugh how you guys are speculating on how many seasons it'll take to film books that aren't written yet.

Also this:

They're as worried about when the remaining books come out as you are: Actually, "I guess we spend more time worrying than the fans," Benioff said. The two of them visited Martin at his home in Santa Fe back in February to pump him for information about where all the stories are going, so they can properly set them up in the world of the show, and "It was incredibly useful," according to Benioff.

"There's no question that this will be better for us if the books come out before the various seasons come out," Benioff added. "That said, we're not going to take a two-year hiatus (to wait for a book). The little kids are growing older, the show's got momentum now, and the show must go on. We're just hopeful that it will all time out."

Link to source:
http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/game-of-thrones-producers-say-season-3-as-big-as-were-going-to-get
 

Wh0 N0se

Member
If Winds is like Storms, and this is on a very big "if". I think the idea situation would be

Season 3 - All Storms
Season 4 - Rest of Storms, Beginning of Feast and Beginning of Dragons.
Season 5 - Rest of Feast and Dance, with some bits of Winds.
Season 6- Winds.


Oh, they have to do that either way. LOL. You're not going to have a season without Tyrion and Dany. 2 of your 3 most popular characters.
Season 3 will be just over half of Storm, then season 4 will be the rest, I can't see much of AFFC and maybe ADWD being in season 4, assuming there's not much of them in season 4 then it'll be seasons 5 and 6 with them and maybe a bit of TWOW
You gotta remember that Ep 9 of the TV show is usually the climax of the season and book so they won't be throwing much of the future books into the previous seasons.
They can always make new scenes up if they don't have enough plot to fill a season.

Then ideally, TWOW is epic and spans 2 seasons which is entirely possible considering the start will be 2 battles. And of course, all of this is assuming the show even makes it that far.
They've got plenty of time before they catch up to George.
The show is making them money. As long as it stays that way, it doesn't really matter how slow GRRM is, they can just go on without waiting for him.

You also don't generally go into the making of a TV show expecting to get upward of 5-6 seasons. They wanted to make it to the RW and they did.


EDIT: ^^^^ I wouldn't watch the show if they went ahead of GRRM, I'd wait for the books to come out before watching the remaining episodes. It would ruin the books if I watched the TV show first.
 
Don't even need that.

Imagine three seasons for those two books.

"Why the fuck isn't Dany in Westros yet? YOU MEAN I HAVE TO WAIT THREE YEARS FOR THE BITCH TO GET THERE? FUCK THIS SHIT!"

I think they can pull one season off one season from where she ends in Storms to where she is in Dance.

Yeah. And itt certainly doesn't help that much of her storyline in ADWD is dreadful. How many seasons can people take of Dany pining for Daario and being a shitty ruler.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Winds had better be pretty awesome in the first place if they're planning to actually get to the end. The show is just going to cost more and more to film.

Also, if you recall, Sopranos took like 18 month breaks in between seasons at times. I don't think they'd ever just start making stuff up without GRRM's consent.
 

Wh0 N0se

Member
Winds had better be pretty awesome in the first place if they're planning to actually get to the end. The show is just going to cost more and more to film.

Also, if you recall, Sopranos took like 18 month breaks in between seasons at times. I don't think they'd ever just start making stuff up without GRRM's consent.

Benioff's comment about 'the show must go on' seems to suggest that he'd be perfectly willing, hopefully it never gets to that situation, George has recently said how he realises that the show is catching up and he's going to need to make sure he keeps a decent pace up.
 

lingiii

Banned
Every time Sansa anything I sigh.

She does at least give a view on Littlefinger, who I wouldn't want to be a POV character, but who is a thug-ass-mofo.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
Every time Sansa anything I sigh.

She does at least give a view on Littlefinger, who I wouldn't want to be a POV character, but who is a thug-ass-mofo.

Really? I've kind of enjoyed the painfully slow adjustment Sansa is making to the real world after having her storybook fantasy misconceptions shattered.

RE: Martin's photos. That does not look like a healthy man...
 

Zoibie

Member
I think the only chapters I looked forward to in AFFC were Samwell's and Arya's, and even then barely anything happens in them. Good luck to D&D with Sam's story after season 4 because there's no way they can have him on a boat for an entire season. They could fill out his time in Braavos but, really, who wants to see that?
 
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