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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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S

Snake

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
He was halfway around the world and grew out a long beard, and only wielded a staff. Not really that hard to imagine.
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Yeah, Basileus' point was that Barristan's secret identity wasn't hard to believe.

Whereas the theory of Euron=Daario would require him going back and forth between the Iron Islands and Slaver's Bay/Qarth multiple times within a short period of time, not to mention using magic to hide his Crow's Eye. Plus a hundred other deceptions and Batman levels of planning.

edit: though I agree it's more plausible than Benjen=Daario, :lol.
 
A

apana

Member
Louis Cypher said:
It's not teleportation. Just enhanced sailing.

Also what purpose does Darrio possibly serve. GRRM said he has a role coming so what is it?
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profile_picture_by_peterwagen-d4m3ett.png


Something like that? Anyways Euron being Daario may sound crazy but I think we will have to prepare ourselves for more than a few nutty plot points involving magic in the coming books. Maybe Euron was the one who stole Snape's polyjuice potion?
 
D

devilhawk

Member
Euron isn't just sitting on his hands and waiting for Victarion to come back with Dany. Knowing that he has a plan or is doing something else is what makes these theories exist.
 
W

Wh0 N0se

Member
If GRRM read any of these theories on the internet he'd realise that we've all gone crazy and he needs to get his book out as soon as possible before someone suggests that Hodor is Kaiser Soze.
 
D

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
I have finished the book and can now join the cool people thread.

So thoughts.

I don't really get the hate for AFFC and ADWD overall. I thought they were good and I liked most the story lines. Exceptions would be the overall ending to ADWD, which seemed very sloppy. In the other books, it seems to end with some finality about some things, where outside Roasted Dorne, it just ended on a series of cliffhangers. Dany was the only one who I thought had a good ending in the story.

The Dorne plot ended up going nowhere, which is too bad. The last Asha chapter kind of ruined the tension from the Jon chapter for me, because it shows that Ramsay is lying about defeating Stannis. I don't think for a moment that Jon is really dead. While Martin likes to kill people off, there always seems to be a reason for it. To kill the guy trying to reconcile the Wildlings and really their only ally seems silly and would just make Jon's entire story pointless. Even Martell's story seems like it might have just been a lead in to his friends becoming bigger players.

I didn't really feel for Kevin at the end. He seemed like a cool enough character, but he wasn't in it enough for me to really care that he died, and I was more happy to see Varys again.

Still happy to be done, and now I can wait and discuss with the rest of you.
 
J

Jayof9s

Member
DrForester said:
I have finished the book and can now join the cool people thread.

So thoughts.

I don't really get the hate for AFFC and ADWD overall. I thought they were good and I liked most the story lines. Exceptions would be the overall ending to ADWD, which seemed very sloppy. In the other books, it seems to end with some finality about some things, where outside Roasted Dorne, it just ended on a series of cliffhangers. Dany was the only one who I thought had a good ending in the story.

The Dorne plot ended up going nowhere, which is too bad. The last Asha chapter kind of ruined the tension from the Jon chapter for me, because it shows that Ramsay is lying about defeating Stannis. I don't think for a moment that Jon is really dead. While Martin likes to kill people off, there always seems to be a reason for it. To kill the guy trying to reconcile the Wildlings and really their only ally seems silly and would just make Jon's entire story pointless. Even Martell's story seems like it might have just been a lead in to his friends becoming bigger players.

I didn't really feel for Kevin at the end. He seemed like a cool enough character, but he wasn't in it enough for me to really care that he died, and I was more happy to see Varys again.

Still happy to be done, and now I can wait and discuss with the rest of you.
Click to expand...

Bolded a few of the things you already mentioned that result in the dislike. Plus, for me I thought the chapter split was really awkward and an awful idea in general but I still don't hate AFFC/ADWD. Annnd there's all the fake-out POV deaths that just make any 'deaths' circumspect or lack all impact. And he added a bunch of new characters that seemed to only tangentially affect the plot, if at all, and then only when they actually did anything, which they usually did not.

That said, the problems with the books don't make them awful alone (and they'll probably be fine as part of the complete series someday) but I believe the main source of hate is from the poor wretches that had to wait 5 years to read AFFC after ASOS and then 6 years after that for ADWD for it to end in more cliffhangers.

I think TWOW will have to be interesting, at least the first half, assuming we get some action from all that build-up.
 
A

apana

Member
I don't think there is hate for those two books. The quality of the writing didn't go down, it is just that a lot of us feel that the story got a bit out of control. I honestly wouldn't mind as much if he was a young man. I would tell him to just keep writing but at this point he needs to start finishing the story. With the number of characters he has even two books is not much space to conclude their story arcs. To be fair though I understand why he does it. Some very beautiful moments in the story have come from him going off the beaten path, like the story about Brienne travelling with the priest.

On the matter of Jon, of course he isn't dead. There will however probably be long term consequences for him, or at the very least, some serious short term difficulties. I don't see him returning to his body easily. I think he has to go beyond the wall as a wolf to regain his body for some reason. With Melisandre, Patchface, and the White Walkers all up north, my guess is we are going to see some creepy shit go down in his storyline. The wall is sure to crack by the end of Winds of Winter, my guess is Patchface will be responsible.
 
D

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
I figure he can go anywhere with Jon now. He's technically not part of the Watch anymore assuming he "died" and was raised by Millisandre.
 
R

radios shipping overview

Member
apana said:
With Melisandre, Patchface, and the White Walkers all up north, my guess is we are going to see some creepy shit go down in his storyline. The wall is sure to crack by the end of Winds of Winter, my guess is Patchface will be responsible.
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What evidence is there that Patchface has any importance other than his prophecies?

Too many crackpot theories in here these days.
 
C

curlyfriski

Banned
Kenak said:
Has this been discussed?: Oberyn Poisoned Tywin

Mind blowing if true.
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Meh I think Tywin Lannister would have been too careful around a guy with Oberyn's reputation to get poisoned that easily. Plus we've never heard of a poison that causes the body to rot after death, and the rotting corpse is really the only unusual aspect of Tywin's death. I'm not really a fan of Everything Has a Hidden Meaning conspiracies. Sometimes a shit is just a shit.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
curlyfriski said:
Meh I think Tywin Lannister would have been too careful around a guy with Oberyn's reputation to get poisoned that easily. Plus we've never heard of a poison that causes the body to rot after death, and the rotting corpse is really the only unusual aspect of Tywin's death. I'm not really a fan of Everything Has a Hidden Meaning conspiracies. Sometimes a shit is just a shit.
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Tywin took a crossbow bolt to the stomach and was left to rot for some time before anyone found him. it's not strange to think all sorts of bacteria found a home in him and created that smell. A corpse smelling is the only real evidence here, and that alone is not convincing.
 
Z

ZeroRay

Member
There was a lot of detail by GRRM regarding his decomposition. How rank compared to other corpses his was, all the white puss pouring out of him, etc. All those descriptions could be a literary commentary by George about Tywin's character, but I prefer to put on my crackpot hat.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
ZeroRay said:
There was a lot of detail by GRRM regarding his decomposition. How rank compared to other corpses his was, all the white puss pouring out of him, etc. All those descriptions could be a literary commentary by George about Tywin's character, but I prefer to put on my crackpot hat.
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I find it more likely that the rot was being used as a metaphor rather than evidence for an irrelevant murder attempt.
 
L

Louis Cypher

Banned
devilhawk said:
Euron isn't just sitting on his hands and waiting for Victarion to come back with Dany. Knowing that he has a plan or is doing something else is what makes these theories exist.
Click to expand...

Well there also is the merman conspiracy which has some good hints.

I just find it funny that there is resurrection and shadow babies but enhanced sailing is outrageous.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Louis Cypher said:
Well there also is the merman conspiracy which has some good hints.

I just find it funny that there is resurrection and shadow babies but enhanced sailing is outrageous.
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It would be incredibly out of character for GRRM to put in a plot device that enabled a character to effectively teleport 1000s of miles to pull of some silly and pointless caper. Even he wouldn't take his false identity trope that far! Maybe with some use of "enhanced sailing" he could have handled the Mereenese knot a bit easier, maybe he should have done it!
 
D

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
I always thought the biggest travel question was the magic horses that Catelyn uses to get herself and her party though the Lannister lines and back again to get to Storms End. Robb sends her. She's there. Renley is killed, and she's back again.

Telling you guys, magic horses.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
DrForester said:
I always thought the biggest travel question was the magic horses that Catelyn uses to get herself and her party though the Lannister lines and back again to get to Storms End. Robb sends her. She's there. Renley is killed, and she's back again.

Telling you guys, magic horses.
Click to expand...

There are no "iines" in this type of warfare. The Lannister host was based in Harrenhal, she could just ride south from Riverrun to Bitterbridge and as long as she didn't encounter a raiding party, she would be fine.
 
A

apana

Member
jiji said:
What evidence is there that Patchface has any importance other than his prophecies?

Too many crackpot theories in here these days.
Click to expand...

Remember what Melisandre said?

"That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood"

No way George just put this idea out there without intending to follow through. I am not sure what Patchface will do but lips red with blood suggest something violent. You can't deny Patchface is very creepy. Clowns and jesters in fantasy have traditionally been agents of chaos and trickery.

As for the wall cracking, I think I just expect that to happen because George wants to put the characters through a lot of adversity. It would be a great moment for the Wall to break as soon as everything seems to be going right. I expect it to be somewhere towards the end of Winds of Winter when Jon gets his body back. It's not really a theory, just something I expect will happen because it would be interesting. I don't know how it will happen, probably through the horn of winter if it still is out there. Tormund states that the one Melisandre burned was a fake.
 
W

Wh0 N0se

Member
apana said:
Remember what Melisandre said?

"That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood"

No way George just put this idea out there without intending to follow through. I am not sure what Patchface will do but lips red with blood suggest something violent. You can't deny Patchface is very creepy. Clowns and jesters in fantasy have traditionally been agents of chaos and trickery.

As for the wall cracking, I think I just expect that to happen because George wants to put the characters through a lot of adversity. It would be a great moment for the Wall to break as soon as everything seems to be going right. I expect it to be somewhere towards the end of Winds of Winter when Jon gets his body back. It's not really a theory, just something I expect will happen because it would be interesting. I don't know how it will happen, probably through the horn of winter if it still is out there. Tormund states that the one Melisandre burned was a fake.
Click to expand...

Sam has the real one doesn't he?


Also, this: http://teamcoco.com/video/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-spoilers
No spoilers just funniness.
 
E

Eeikod

Member
apana said:
I don't think there is hate for those two books. The quality of the writing didn't go down, it is just that a lot of us feel that the story got a bit out of control. I honestly wouldn't mind as much if he was a young man. I would tell him to just keep writing but at this point he needs to start finishing the story. With the number of characters he has even two books is not much space to conclude their story arcs. To be fair though I understand why he does it. Some very beautiful moments in the story have come from him going off the beaten path, like the story about Brienne travelling with the priest.

On the matter of Jon, of course he isn't dead. There will however probably be long term consequences for him, or at the very least, some serious short term difficulties. I don't see him returning to his body easily. I think he has to go beyond the wall as a wolf to regain his body for some reason. With Melisandre, Patchface, and the White Walkers all up north, my guess is we are going to see some creepy shit go down in his storyline. The wall is sure to crack by the end of Winds of Winter, my guess is Patchface will be responsible.
Click to expand...

With blood in his lips. He'll probably blow the horn that takes the wall down
 
D

Dysun

Member
That Euron=Daario theory is pretty nuts, never seen that one before. It makes sense in a ridiculous sort of way lol
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
The biggest problem I have with the ADWD finale is that the Watch would have no qualms about murdering Jon instead of, say, just leading a mutiny and imprisoning him. Is that how they treat a brother?
 
T

tokkun

Member
Kenak said:
Has this been discussed?: Oberyn Poisoned Tywin

Mind blowing if true.
Click to expand...

It doesn't make sense. If the poison shuts down a person's bowel function, when why would shooting that person with an arrow miraculously reverse the effect?

cj_iwakura said:
The biggest problem I have with the ADWD finale is that the Watch would have no qualms about murdering Jon instead of, say, just leading a mutiny and imprisoning him. Is that how they treat a brother?
Click to expand...

There was a mutiny against the previous Lord Commander that turned out the same way.
 
ToyMachine228

ToyMachine228

Member
Am I the only one who thinks Benjen is alive, but is actually...Benjen? He's a man of the Night's Watch, meaning he could be up to something fighting against the White Walkers. The Starks are an honorable house and he was a big part of convincing Jon to join the Night's Watch. I don't see him doing anything to break his vows, no matter what the potential benefit or implications are for the realm. My thinking is we'll see him return when when the White Walkers really begin to threaten the realm.
 
D

Dysun

Member
I think he's been dead since his horse returned to Castle Black. I find it hard to believe he could survive out there alone versus wights and others, although him showing up as a prologue/epilogue in the Lands of Always Winter would be great.
 
C

CassSept

Member
ToyMachine228 said:
Am I the only one who thinks Benjen is alive, but is actually...Benjen? He's a man of the Night's Watch, meaning he could be up to something fighting against the White Walkers. The Starks are an honorable house and he was a big part of convincing Jon to join the Night's Watch. I don't see him doing anything to break his vows, no matter what the potential benefit or implications are for the realm. My thinking is we'll see him return when when the White Walkers really begin to threaten the realm.
Click to expand...

Nah, it's more probable that he is Daario rather than plain ol' Benjen.

I'm only half joking.
 
C

cashman

Banned
Dysun said:
I think he's been dead since his horse returned to Castle Black. I find it hard to believe he could survive out there alone versus wights and others, although him showing up as a prologue/epilogue in the Lands of Always Winter would be great.
Click to expand...

Speaking of, I can't wait for this part in TWOW. We'll finally get some backstory on Others and more stuff on the early history of Westeros.
 
A

aceface

Member
Seems like if Daario was Euron they wouldn't have cast such a pretty boy on the show. They would want to cast someone who looks somewhat like a Greyjoy so people could look back and say "Oh yeah!"

Unless he's using glamor/face changing magic, in that case anything is possible. I don't think I buy it though...

Also if it's NOT magic it would be given away the second Euron appears on the show.
 
R

rando14

Member
aceface said:
Seems like if Daario was Euron they wouldn't have cast such a pretty boy on the show. They would want to cast someone who looks somewhat like a Greyjoy so people could look back and say "Oh yeah!"

Unless he's using glamor/face changing magic, in that case anything is possible. I don't think I buy it though...
Click to expand...

lol if Euron was a Faceless
 
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