Support NeoGAF

[A Human Becoming]

I hope it'll just be a side story that references the main plot, but doesn't revolve around it.

"You chose to throw Bran from the window.
He'll remember that."

That will never happen, but it would be great if it did.

 

[Pollux]

Arya may die, but if she does I have a feeling its going to be in a blaze of vengeful glory.

Considering Martin has a fetish for torturing his characters, I would say it's a mortal lock to bet that Arya is going to die - but it probably won't be until the last book.

 

[Dresden]

The story of Willas Tyrell, the real mastermind behind the game.

 

[Fuzzy]

The story of Willas Tyrell, the real mastermind behind the game.

How could a game based on the show be about someone who doesn't exist in the show?

 

[Dresden]

are you really trying to get in the way of my fantasizing

 

[Fuzzy]

are you really trying to get in the way of my fantasizing

Will I be banned if I do?

 

[Pollux]

How could a game based on the show be about someone who doesn't exist in the show?

The best way to make a game about the show would be to have someone who doesn't exist in the show as the main character - allows them to tell their own story.

 

[PhoenixDark]

The story of Willas Tyrell, the real mastermind behind the game.

I'm actually kinda bummed we haven't seen him yet, and now it seems like the only way we'll see him is if he's in trouble - for instance, Ironborn attacking Highgarden in a prologue, or Dorne attacking in an epilogue.

He's apparently pretty capable and smart, and like Doran Martell has an ailment that leads to him focusing more on intellect than being physical.

 

[ZeroRay]

Also the other Tyrell brother, Garlan is one of the best swordsmen in Westeros. Might just have him be Margery's champion instead of Loras like what a lot of people are expecting.

 

[hemtae]

Also the other Tyrell brother, Garlan is one of the best swordsmen in Westeros. Might just have him be Margery's champion instead of Loras like what a lot of people are expecting.

She tried I thought but only kingsguard people can champion her.

 

[SamVimes]

Also the other Tyrell brother, Garlan is one of the best swordsmen in Westeros. Might just have him be Margery's champion instead of Loras like what a lot of people are expecting.

They said in the show that Loras is the Tyrells only son. Which i don't understand at all, why even close that window? Until (if) you introduce his brothers the audience would have just thought exactly that anyway. They could make them cousins or something but it's still a really silly choice to me.

edit: i thought i was in the GOT book readers thread so i assumed that's what we were talking about. meh

 

[You Know Nothing]

Wasn't Margaergy planning on having a normal trial because the evidence against her is so flimsy?

She had to have a member of the kingsgaurd champion her and the ones left were all awful fighters. And I believe Kevan tells Cersei that Margaery decided to have a normal trial instead because there isn't any solid evidence against her.

I don't think it'll come to a trial by combat for her.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Yup she decided to have a normal trial. I'm guessing she's going to be fine. And unless someone proves Robert Strong isn't alive, Cersei will certain win her trial by combat.

Also there's an interesting part in one of Cersei's ADWD chapters where two septas are cleaning her. One septa begins to mention some news about Loras, when the other tells her to hush.

 

[You Know Nothing]

Whoa, I don't believe I ever caught that bit about Loras. It makes sense that some larger plot is at play.

In fact, Margaery blabbing to Pycelle who is widely known to be Cersei's creature about the moon tea makes it all just seem like an elaborate trap to snare Cersei anyway.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

It would be interesting to see Margaery be found guilty. I wonder how everything would unfold? The Tyrells would certainly go against the throne and the Lannisters, but would they try to overthrow Tommen or maybe side with Stannis?

 

[hemtae]

It would be interesting to see Margaery be found guilty. I wonder how everything would unfold? The Tyrells would certainly go against the throne and the Lannisters, but would they try to overthrow Tommen or maybe side with Stannis?

Probably Aegon.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Whoa, I don't believe I ever caught that bit about Loras. It makes sense that some larger plot is at play.

In fact, Margaery blabbing to Pycelle who is widely known to be Cersei's creature about the moon tea makes it all just seem like an elaborate trap to snare Cersei anyway.

There's a theory about that:

Fate at Dragonstone
According to this theory, Loras Tyrell's severe injuries at the Siege of Dragonstone are not as they seem.

Potential reasons

• To weaken Cersei Lannister's reign as Queen Regent, and the status of House Lannister more broadly.
• To free up the Redwyne fleet to deal with the Ironborn invasion of the Shield Islands, as Loras initially argued.
• Kevan Lannister states that Loras and his forces searched Dragonstone for dragon eggs or other priceless artifacts, but found nothing. It is possible that Loras found, if not those specific things, something else that could be used to benefit House Tyrell.

Evidence for

• As far as the reader knows, the only evidence given as to Loras's injuries is what Aurane Waters tells Cersei Lannister, and as Aurane later quickly abandons Cersei, his loyalty to her is certainly questionable.
• In A Feast for Crows, Myranda Royce tells Sansa Stark that Riverrun has been taken by the forces of the Iron Throne, and that Dragonstone will soon follow. However, Waters tells Cersei that Dragonstone was taken before Riverrun.
• According to Waters, during the battle Loras was first hit with a quarrel in the thigh, then one through the shoulder, then had his ribs broken by a mace, but kept fighting at the front of the assault until he was hit with boiling water. This seems an excessive amount of injuries to sustain while continuing to fight in the vanguard of an intense assault, even for Loras.
• It was the belief that Loras was out of the picture that led Cersei to begin to move against Margaery Tyrell, which set in motion the events of Cersei's own downfall.
• Loras's leadership during the siege resulted in the death of one thousand of the Iron Throne's soldiers. Whether they actually died or defected along with Loras, it would be a large blow to the forces of the Iron Throne and House Lannister.
• When taking Dragonstone, Waters says that Loras offered single combat to its commander, Rolland Storm, but Storm declined. This would seem to be out of character for Storm and his belief in the Warrior. Further, Stannis only left a token force on Dragonstone, which would seem less likely to inflict such large-scale casualties on the Iron Throne's forces.
• In A Dance with Dragons, none of Stannis Baratheon's followers mention having lost Dragonstone, which would have been a major defeat for them.
• Kevan Lannister notes that, despite his injuries, Loras has been personally searching Dragonstone. This would seem rather difficult to do for someone who had sustained the injuries described by Waters.
• According to The Winds of Winter,
  Spoiler

  Waters has apparently established himself as a pirate chief in the Stepstones off of Dorne. If Waters and Loras were conspiring, this would allow Waters to harass the forces of House Martell, the longtime enemies of House Tyrell.

Evidence against

• It would presumably be difficult to keep the non-capture of Dragonstone a secret for long, given how many ships pass through Blackwater Bay en route to King's Landing.
• If the Siege of Dragonstone was a complete fabrication, it would require House Tyrell to conspire with Stannis Baratheon, something which would seem unlikely given how Stannis's claim to the throne would not benefit Margaery's desire to be Queen, which is contingent on her marriage to Tommen Baratheon and his status as King, not to mention Stannis's dislike of House Tyrell for their part in the Siege of Storm's End.

 

[flippedb]

I finally bought the 5 books thanks to a Kindle sale ($10 for the 5 of them was too good to pass on). I finished reading the first on and I loved it, however, I can't understand why would HBO turn the books into a semi-porn tv series. I know there are sexual scenes sprinkled here and there on the books, but on the TV series it was a little too much. The fact they even took the time to create new characters (Ros I'm looking at you) just to justify more sex scenes is quite dumb.

Anyway, I'm starting with a Clash of Kings now, wish me luck.

 

[Pkaz01]

Considering Martin has a fetish for torturing his characters, I would say it's a mortal lock to bet that Arya is going to die - but it probably won't be until the last book.

But he does play favorites.. and Arya is definitely one of those. Do I think she will die, yea probably. Would I bet on it? Hell no GRRM hasn't killed a non epilogue or prologue POV since the red wedding and he just ended up bringing her back.

Tyrion and Arya have already fake died a bunch of times in the series part of me really just thinks he can't do it.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Tyrion and Arya have already fake died a bunch of times in the series part of me really just thinks he can't do it.

He's psyching us out. No one is safe.

 

[Pkaz01]

He's psyching us out. No one is safe.

I do expect the bodies to hit the floor in TWOW. two wars? it better be a bloodbath

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

I do expect the bodies to hit the floor in TWOW. two wars? it better be a bloodbath

He needs a good character POV death. We haven't gotten one since the RW (I hardly count Jon because it's so uncertain). I predict Cersei or Sansa.

 

[PhoenixDark]

It would be interesting to see Margaery be found guilty. I wonder how everything would unfold? The Tyrells would certainly go against the throne and the Lannisters, but would they try to overthrow Tommen or maybe side with Stannis?

I don't think the Tyrells will go against the throne. Whoever has the king has the kingdom, so it makes more sense to get rid of Cersei and then use Tommen as a puppet. With Kevan dead and Jaime missing, there aren't any formidable obstacles in the way of the Tyrells taking over King's Landing.

However I think Randyl Tarly will betray the Tyrells. In the ADWD prologue he is very vocal about doubting Connington is alive. He fought alongside Connington during Robert's Rebellion and was a Targ loyalist. I think he'll join Aegon. That alone would greatly reduce the Tyrell forces.

 

[A Human Becoming]

I finally bought the 5 books thanks to a Kindle sale ($10 for the 5 of them was too good to pass on). I finished reading the first on and I loved it, however, I can't understand why would HBO turn the books into a semi-porn tv series. I know there are sexual scenes sprinkled here and there on the books, but on the TV series it was a little too much. The fact they even took the time to create new characters (Ros I'm looking at you) just to justify more sex scenes is quite dumb.

Anyway, I'm starting with a Clash of Kings now, wish me luck.

I agree there's too much sex as well. Series would be better if the sex was toned down and more details from the books was included. And yeah, Ros the traveling whore was stupid. It was a lazy way to get more information about other characters.

Clash of Kings is great. I liked it even more than GoT. Storm of Swords has been the best so far IMO.

He needs a good character POV death. We haven't gotten one since the RW (I hardly count Jon because it's so uncertain). I predict Cersei or Sansa.

Quentyns was pretty much a POV death. Did he even say anything after his chapter ended?

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Quentyns was pretty much a POV death. Did he even say anything after his chapter ended?

Oh I totally forgot about Quentyn. In that case I mean like the "main" POV characters that have been there from the beginning.

 

[RedShift]

He needs a good character POV death. We haven't gotten one since the RW (I hardly count Jon because it's so uncertain). I predict Cersei or Sansa.

I predict Dany.

Everyone talks about her plot armour until she gets to Westeros, but really it's the dragons that have to get there, not her. There are plenty of people those dragons will follow west if she dies in Essos.

 

[Pkaz01]

I predict Dany.

Everyone talks about her plot armour until she gets to Westeros, but really it's the dragons that have to get there, not her. There are plenty of people those dragons will follow west if she dies in Essos.

I don't think so. Quentyn already released the dragons I think anyone who is going to get the other dragons is already in Essos. Tyrion will end up with one for sure, Victarion might temporarily own one with the horn long enough for Bran to warg it or Arya to steal it. Most of the people who I could see with a dragon are already near them. I don't see Jon ever riding one that would be kind of lame imo.

And I didn't read all this Dany bullshit for her just to be in the story for her dragons, Quentyn pretty much covered the dragon plot movement character necessity. I wonder how much time the show wastes on him knowing he is a walking plot device and all we really need to know is that he is the son of Doran, is asking for Dany's hand in marriage,and then gets denied by dany and dies releasing the dragons. They can hit the main points of his entire arc in like three scenes.

 

[Basileus777]

Quentyn was a glorified guest POV. He was ADWD's Arys Oakheart. Ned and Cat are only real POVs to be killed off. GRRM hasn't shown an inclination to kill off POV characters. Sansa certainly isn't going to get the axe anytime soon. There is no other character who could replace her in terms of story telling, she's probably one of the most safe characters as it is right now. Dany isn't going to die in Essos either.

 

[Pkaz01]

Well GRRM said he wanted to cut down the number of POV chapters. so he is either going to kill them off or put them together. My guess is the important ones get grouped up, like Tyrion, Victorian, Dany, and maybe barristan but he might die. Hotah will probably die maybe doran too leaving Arianne as the POV of Dorne. I can see Jon Connington dying as well if Arianne hooks up with Aegon we wouldn't need him either. Then we have Asha and Theon in the north together so those will either be combined or Theon will die. Brienne and Jaime will be combined. It will probably be Mel showing whats happening in the nights watch and then Jon will be revived and they will be combined as well.

Arya, Sansa, Bran, Cersei, and Sam will all probably still be the main eyes and ears of their POVs and settings.

 

[Basileus777]

Connington will probably die soon. Cersei is doomed. Davos and Barristan could become expendable soon enough. I suspect Victarion will die. Only one of Brienne/Jaime need survive. Hotah/Oakheart aren't real POVs, they don't need to die to be discontinued. There is plenty of room to pare down the POVs.

 

[Pkaz01]

Connington will probably die soon. Cersei is doomed. Davos and Barristan could become expendable soon enough. I suspect Victarion will die. Only one of Brienne/Jaime need survive. Hotah/Oakheart aren't real POVs, they don't need to die to be discontinued. There is plenty of room to pare down the POVs.

Lol I forgot Oakheart died to Hotah and got their names mixed up. I did forget Davos but i'd be pretty mad if he takes him out I don't feel like his story has payed off and I don't know where its going so he is probably dead once he delivers rickon. Its just a shame that the only payoff I can think of for him is probably getting together with what is left of his family and taking over whatever lands Stannis had once stannis dies.

 

[Basileus777]

Lol I forgot Oakheart died to Hotah and got their names mixed up. I did forget Davos but i'd be pretty mad if he takes him out I don't feel like his story has payed off and I don't know where its going so he is probably dead once he delivers rickon. Its just a shame that the only payoff I can think of for him is probably getting together with what is left of his family and taking over whatever lands Stannis had once stannis dies.

Some of these characters need not die, GRRM can simply chose to leave them aside and not write many chapters for them. Killing off characters can be convenient, but I think GRRM is capable of trimming down the relevant POVs without a bloodbath. Davos may yet survive!

 

[Pkaz01]

Some of these characters need not die, GRRM can simply chose to leave them aside and not write many chapters for them. Killing off characters can be convenient, but I think GRRM is capable of trimming down the relevant POVs without a bloodbath. Davos may yet survive!

Oh i'm sure he could do it I just don't know if thats his style. Its not tragic enough lol

 

[Exterminieren]

I'll be so fucking angry if he kills Davos.

Davos must sit the Iron Throne!

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

I'll be so fucking angry if he kills Davos.

Davos must sit the Iron Throne!

If he really did win it I would lol so hard

 

[Trojita]

The biggest groan I had was the cliff hanger at the end of a Tyrion chapter when he fell into the rock mummy water. It was obvious he didn't die.

Davos won't die anytime soon.

 

[DrForester]

Quentyn was a glorified guest POV. He was ADWD's Arys Oakheart. Ned and Cat are only real POVs to be killed off. GRRM hasn't shown an inclination to kill off POV characters. Sansa certainly isn't going to get the axe anytime soon. There is no other character who could replace her in terms of story telling, she's probably one of the most safe characters as it is right now. Dany isn't going to die in Essos either.

People really seem to forget that those are the only POV characters he's killed. Ned's death obviously helped set the tone for the series, and outside of a few (albeit significant) actions, Cat really was just an observer to events going on.

 

[keuja]

I'll be so fucking angry if he kills Davos.

Davos must sit the Iron Throne!

I'd be pissed off too. The guy has the 2 most badass chapters in ADWD.

 

[Pkaz01]

People really seem to forget that those are the only POV characters he's killed. Ned's death obviously helped set the tone for the series, and outside of a few (albeit significant) actions, Cat really was just an observer to events going on.

And she didn't even stay dead! He couldn't even finish the book without bringing her back

The biggest groan I had was the cliff hanger at the end of a Tyrion chapter when he fell into the rock mummy water. It was obvious he didn't die.

Davos won't die anytime soon.

My biggest was that shitty turtle chapter in ADWD. I was so excited for Tyrion chapters and then I was like what the hell am I reading right now

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Can I confess something?


















Tyrion's chapters have always kind of bored me.

 

[Basileus777]

Can I confess something?

Tyrion's chapters have always kind of bored me.

Tyrion was the best POV until ADWD. It's a shame he became such a bore.

My biggest was that shitty turtle chapter in ADWD. I was so excited for Tyrion chapters and then I was like what the hell am I reading right now

The turtle chapter was probably was the worst thing GRRM has written in the series. Though I remain steadfast in my hate for Maggie the Frog.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Tyrion was the best POV until ADWD. It's a shame he became such a bore.

He was boring for the first half of GoT before he goes to the Eyrie, and his chapters in ACoK are basically him having a pissing contest with Cersei. He finally gets good in SoS but then falls off again during ADWD.

 

[Kilrogg]

The turtle chapter was probably was the worst thing GRRM has written in the series. Though I remain steadfast in my hate for Maggie the Frog.

That award belongs to any one Brienne chapter in AFoC. I stopped midway through AFoC and only resumed reading 6 months later because of those.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Dany won't die in Essos. She's going to reach the Trident according to prophesy, and likely the Wall too.

I liked Tyrion's ADWD chapters. People expected him to return to being a witty dwarf immediately but he was in a very dark place mentally after ASOS, and his drunken ugly state of mind was fascinating to me. I'm in the minority but I really liked Penny, largely because she brought Tyrion back to life. It was interesting seeing how disgusted he was at her slave mentality, and it's one of the things that convinced him not to drink himself to death.

I didn't expect him to die when he fell in the water but I thought he'd get greyscale for sure. He might have it internally. Also I liked how he sniffed out Aegon and so easily manipulated the so called perfect prince. Varys seems to have created a smart but very arrogant and brash king.

 

[Laurentius]

I hear a lot of hate for the Brienne chapters, but I actually loved those.

(I also liked pretty much every single Tyrion chapter. So there's that.)

 

[Kilrogg]

I hear a lot of hate for the Brienne chapters, but I actually loved those.

(I also liked pretty much every single Tyrion chapter. So there's that.)

And I didn't mind Dany's chapters in ADWD (or even AFOC, if there were any), so I know where you're coming from, but in each case we're in the minority. I think it's the discrepancy between how awesome the characters are (Brienne and Dany being both very interesting) and how little they get to do that makes those chapters disappointingly boring.

 

[CassSept]

The turtle chapter was probably was the worst thing GRRM has written in the series. Though I remain steadfast in my hate for Maggie the Frog.

Brienne in Duskendale was worse imo. But yeah, a lot of Tyrion's journey through Essos is simply forgettable.

Plus, it still blows my mind that Daenerys had so many chapters. I don't want battle, death, tits and gore every chapter, but her arc is the on that needed a lot of pruning. I get the point of her arc, but it goes on and on and on with a bunch of worst characters ever. Three chapters would had been enough, but instead it takes forever. It's basically GoT Season 2 in book form, imagine having 8 chapters of Dany walking around Qarth doing next to nothing in ACoK.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Dany's chapters honestly didn't bother me that much other than getting irritated at all of the Ghiscari names. All Oznoz Grawlazkadaz and Skahooshafaz Magooberaz.

Pretty much everything that happens to Tyrion past the pole boat was a bit of a drag for me and I hated that Martin got him literally outside the walls of Meereen before deciding that would be a dandy place to leave us hanging.

Reading Brienne's chapters the first time around was awful, knowing that she was always going in the wrong-assed direction and me generally not giving a shit about the people and places that passed her by. The second reading made me appreciate the stories of her ever-changing companions a little more, though.

They're really not bad books but like others have said, AFFC/ADWD is basically thousands of pages of the bluest balls in storytelling.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I feel like if Dany only had 8 chapters in ADWD her story could have been told without losing anything, and Martin could have potentially added the Barristan, Tyrion, and Victarion chapters from TWOW that begin the battle of Mereen. Views on ADWD would have been different if it ended with Barristan's second TWOW chapter.

 

[RedShift]

Does anyone have a link to the released TWOW chapters?

Still haven't read them, and I'm doing a re-read at the moment (with the combined vaguely chronological read of AFFC and ADWD), so I might as well tack them on the end.