Basileus777
Member
The whole thing with the wardens in AGOT feels outdated considering how unimportant those titles are in the rest of the series.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
- Start date
- Status
So does being a Warden mean you get the military power of that region as well?
Moff
Member
no? he talks specifically about agot, where tywin was still alive.
but I'd like to see those passages, too. thats really odd.
East, not West. I looked over one early Ned chapter synopsis on Tower of the Hand and came upon that. For the first two books Jaime Lannister was Warden of the East
You could definitely be Kingsguard and a Warden.
Suppose you could retcon Ned and Robert talking about Jaime as an indication of their assessment of his oathkeeping ability. Definitely weird though, seems Robert would take personal pleasure in denying Tywin an heir, doesn't seem like something Robert would lose track of.
Suppose you could retcon Ned and Robert talking about Jaime as an indication of their assessment of his oathkeeping ability. Definitely weird though, seems Robert would take personal pleasure in denying Tywin an heir, doesn't seem like something Robert would lose track of.
Moff
Member
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
East. Jaime got it after Jon Arryn died because his son was too young for the role and Robert was incapable of giving it to someone else from the Vale, or rather someone who wasn't a Lannister.
I think it's more of a General position whereas full control/loyalty goes to the Lord in charge (Stark, Arryn etc...). Obviously Jaime wouldn't have been able to rally the Vale to him after he attacked Ned, but if none of that happened and Robert was still King and the Dothraki attacked (for example) Jaime would be put in military command of any forces the Vale raised.
Basileus777
Member
Ned and Robert make that assumption, the rest of the series doesn't support it being more than an honorary title. GRRM probably originally intended for the wardenships to be more important.
I'm trying to remember if the Kingsguard being taken out of the line of succession was in AGOT. GRRM might just not have thought of that yet.
It seems quite important. Warden of the North is the title Bolton got for eradicating the Starks. It is just that the Warden title usually belongs to the strongest house in the region anyway, which is the house that would be followed during a war.
Warden of the North = Stark
Warden of the East = Arryn
Warden of the West = Lannister
Warden of the South = Tyrell
The title was also enough to appease Lysa and keep her aligned to the throne. Both Tyrion and Tywin held it in high importance during their tenures as hand of the king. It is supposed to be the ultimate power for a region so the high lords don't fight amongst each other in an invasion.
Basileus777
Member
Warden of the North is used interchangeably with Lord Paramount of the North for the Boltons/Starks, but as we see with the Arryns, the wardenships aren't necessarily tied to a specific lordship. The important title that the Boltons got was lordship of Winterfell, it's why Fake Arya is important.
The wardenships are supposedly an empty title in peace that in war gives one command of the military of a certain region, but we never see the titles actually used this way. The Wardens only command their own vassals, and Jaime certainly never has any practical authority over the Vale or Stormlands.
Edit: The Blackfish might actually be the best example. Robb names him Warden of the Southern Marches when he heads North, but Edmure is obviously still the political leader of the Riverlands, the Blackfish's wardenship is just a military title. Same with Daven Lannister being named Warden of the West, but not Lord of Casterly Rock. But even they only command their own families direct vassals. Daven certainly isn't expected to fight off the Ironborn invasion of the Reach.
It is just that. The title doesn't have to be tied to any political claim; so in a serious military situation there would be no need for political struggles when someone needs to take control of the troops.
That is true, but on the other hand we never saw an actual war situation with an outside source. The only big war we have seen so far was an internal revolution, which is probably why he never took control. But even there we saw Tywin take control of his troops, Robb of his and Tyrell of his parts. Three wardens lead their troops.
The Reach = Tyrell/Tarly who are actually leading the military. Same for the Blackfish who had control over the troops despite Edmure's political power. It is a military title so it is not strange for it to only have political implications. Robert Arynn was still Lord of the Vale when Jaimie was the warden.
Basileus777
Member
I think we're actually mostly in agreement. It would be interesting to see more of how the wardenships were used during the Targ days, because as you said, with a divided realm there aren't so many practical uses for these titles. In the current times, they are mostly honorary, especially since they already belong to the overlord of a region.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Perhaps Ned and Robert are assuming that Jamie will be released from his vows to become heir? A stretch perhaps, but could work.
Last Hearth
Member
I think the Wardens have the authority to call the banners in the name of the King apart from the various Lord Paramounts.
This doesn't really matter for someone like Ned since he is both. But for the West I'd assume you have to power to call the banners of both the Riverlands and the Westerlands, and for the East the Vale and the Stormlands, and in the South both the Reach and Dorne.
This doesn't really matter for someone like Ned since he is both. But for the West I'd assume you have to power to call the banners of both the Riverlands and the Westerlands, and for the East the Vale and the Stormlands, and in the South both the Reach and Dorne.
hemtae
Member
Doesn't that really have no precedent until the Cersei/Joffery does it with Selmy?
Aerys is crazy. He wouldn't be likely to let Jaimie get out of the Kingsguard because he has a terrible relation with the Lannisters. The Baratheon dynasty has tighter ties to the Lannister family; and both Ned and Robert are wary of the kingslayer. They would be easier to convince, especially once Tywin dies and they want a strong leader on the rock instead of Tyrion.
I assumed that Aerys would die anyway and Rhaegar was his heir, but I see Aerys was much younger than I remembered. Only 40 at the time of his death.
Edit: Oh hell, Jaime was 17 when he killed Aerys? That's ridiculous @_@
Basileus777
Member
It seems pretty clear cut. It was probably just an early series mistake from GRRM.
Incandenza
Banned
A Song of Ice and Fire Male Character Generator:
Hair Color:
__ Black
__ Grey
__ Brown
__ Golden curls (Lannister only!)
__ Beaten gold and strands of silver (Targ only!)
Hair Style:
__ Shock of hair
__ Mop of hair
__ Balding
__ Bald
Facial Hair:
__ Salt and pepper beard
__ Clean-shaven
Chest Shape:
__ Barrel
__ Keg
Shoulders:
__ Broad
Hair Color:
__ Black
__ Grey
__ Brown
__ Golden curls (Lannister only!)
__ Beaten gold and strands of silver (Targ only!)
Hair Style:
__ Shock of hair
__ Mop of hair
__ Balding
__ Bald
Facial Hair:
__ Salt and pepper beard
__ Clean-shaven
Chest Shape:
__ Barrel
__ Keg
Shoulders:
__ Broad
elrechazado
Banned
Agreed. For anyone wondering it's the got Ned chapter where he and Robert go riding in the barrow lands.
LOL!
The Mountain was only 17 when he went after Elia as well, it's pretty crazy how young some of the characters are across ASOIAF.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Season 4 show version of the Mountain would have probably been about 10.
Burn his brother's face first and walked straight to the palace and raped Elia.
Steelyuhas
Member
Whoa, did not know this.
I remember reading that part and thinking how cool that was and then immediately thinking how irrelevant that is considering he ends up captured by the end of the book.
Cornballer
Member
From the tv thread:
Discuss.
From the book threadiscuss.
I don't care what he says, I'll eat a horse heart if Dany gets to Westeros by the end of TWOW, or even ADOS.
That hint of more weddings pretty much confirms Red Wedding 2.0 at Riverrun for me though.
From the book thread
Nice to see at least it looks like Dany may finally be heading back to Westeros
about time
"he says a lot of stuff is happening at The Wall."
about time
"he says a lot of stuff is happening at The Wall."
From the book thread
I thought this was the book thread.
So we're almost there only 2 more years!
Definitely too many threads if even the mods can't keep track
Cornballer
Member
Oops. I meant the TV thread.
I was discussing in the TV thread thinking I was in the book thread. So confuse.
A third murder people at a wedding storyline? Doubtful. It made sense to kill Joffrey there for some revenge porn for the reader, but I don't see GRRM going there again.
It makes sense if it's in retaliation for the Red Wedding though. A lot of people believe that LS and BWB will be responsible for the carnage.
Incandenza
Banned
Shouldn't discussion about that article technically be spoiler tagged?
From a readers standpoint yes. But from a character standpoint the crimes of the RW have gone largely unpunished.
I will cry and throw my book out the window if he retreads this ground again.
yes please.
Basileus777
Member
From the tv thread
There's some exciting teases, but I'm not sure why the person who originally linked to this spoke about it sounding like he's almost done, there's no information about that.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Who would be getting married, I wonder? I hope it's not an insignificant wedding no one cares about like Alys Karstark. But I don't know who it could be. Sansa to Harry the Heir? Asha Greyjoy?
Basileus777
Member
Aegon.
I wonder if the Faith are going to play a big role in this book GRRM is obviously cooking up something big with High Sparrow. Jesus I only started reading the book series this spring an already the wait is killing me. I'm never gonna survive the wait for ADOS.
- Status