Incandenza
Banned
Also Dangerous Women for "The Princess and the Queen" and Rogues for "The Rogue Prince," if you want those too.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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PhoenixDark
Banned
I'd wait for the anthology which will have all three novellas, unless you can find cheap used copies of the Legends and Warriors anthologies. I think it's coming out next year (it's already out in Germany iirc).
I don't think anyone thinks the letter is 100% legit, but there's no real agreement on what it actually is. Some people think Mance wrote it because of the way it refers to the Watch as "crows", but Mance's motivations are so mysterious at this point it's not really clear what that would even mean if true. I've heard some people say that Stannis wrote it as a way to fake his death and to lure Jon into the conflict, but that seems very un-Stannis. I've heard some people say that Melisandre wrote it to trick Jon into getting himself killed so that she could res him as a way to earn his loyalty. And then some people say that Ramsay did write it, but that he's bluffing, hoping he can trick Jon into handing over Stannis' family so that he can use them as leverage against Stannis. Or that Ramsay wrote it, but he's being tricked by Manderly into thinking the battle is already over when really Manderly has defected and plans to sack the castle when the Boltons open the gates for him.
butzopower
proud of his butz
Littlefinger wrote the letter to eliminate Jon, because he found out about Rob's letter, and needs to get rid of Jon for Sansa.
Littlefinger knows all the deets cuz little birds.
Littlefinger knows all the deets cuz little birds.
They've already published the first three Dunk & Egg tales in one single book here in Brazil. I have it in two different sizes, haha. Love the characters.
That's what I meant
I guess I can see Jaime finishing his redemption path by assuming the position of Valonqar and killing Cersei, but I can't say I see how Brienne's POV could end in anything that isn't a senseless death.
That's what I meant
I guess I can see Jaime finishing his redemption path by assuming the position of Valonqar and killing Cersei, but I can't say I see how Brienne's POV could end in anything that isn't a senseless death.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I like that. It's such a bad move to change things just because people figured out whatever it is. Especially if the clues and hints are clever and it was well thought out. Of course you should execute on your vision.
Basileus777
Member
I must have been confused what thread I was in when I posted that.They've already published the first three Dunk & Egg tales in one single book here in Brazil. I have it in two different sizes, haha. Love the characters.
That's what I meant
I guess I can see Jaime finishing his redemption path by assuming the position of Valonqar and killing Cersei, but I can't say I see how Brienne's POV could end in anything that isn't a senseless death.
I find his attitude toward science fiction a bit disingenuous given his outspoken criticism of fan fiction. As fan fiction is treated about as seriously as pulpy science fiction was in the 1950s, he ought to have far more empathy for fan fiction writers. He needs to realize than fanfic hurts nobody and can make a work of published fiction much more enjoyable.
His claims that people make money off of fanfic or that fanfic writers accuse published authors of plagiarism is ludicrous. One writer's poor reaction to a douchey fan is absolutely not enough to disregard an entire category of fiction. It's just as ridiculous to act like fan fiction writers are doing it for any reason other than their own practice and enjoyment. While I don't read much fanfic myself, a huge amount is of a very high quality.
Often, fanfic can lead people to discover a work. I'm absolutely positive that some fans of BBC's Sherlock only became interested after reading sexy Cumberbatch stories. Other fanfic (for instance, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality) can lead to intriguing discussion between fans about the original work.
I'm curious if his derision of fanfic is his way of speaking ill of J.K. Rowling by proxy, as she's very vocal about her encouragement of the art. He's very bitter about the Hugo award she won, and rightfully peeved about a few patronizing comments she made about the genre of fantasy.
Basileus777
Member
A lot of writing work actually involves using characters or settings you didn't originally create.
Obviously, but not with the same names and appearances.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Pretty sure GRRM has been opposing fan fiction long before JK Rowling was a thing.
I don't blame him, I wouldn't want people to play with my creation either. If some authors allow it, then that's one thing, but if someone knows the author is opposed and still goes through with it, s/he's kind of a disrespectful ass.I'm not too fond of fan fiction either, but mainly because I'm addicted to the whole canon thing. I really like to enter the worlds the creators come up with and live there for a while, so reading/watching non-canon stuff always feels like a waste of time.
It's weird, I know.
It's weird, I know.
Basileus777
Member
I don't understand this response, of course writers working with pre-existing characters and settings use the same names and appearances.
I don't mind fanfiction on a theoretical level, my problem with it is that it's mostly just poorly written and bad. GRRM's stance is really paranoid though, and I'm not sure anyone who wants to create fanfiction should really care what he says about it. It's not something he really has the power to control in any case, and I'm glad that's how it is, as long as people aren't making money off of it, they should write whatever fanfiction they want to.
I have a feeling you may draw this into an endless loop. What I meant was that yes, all writers of fiction take attributes and characteristics from pre-existing characters, and mesh them together to create their own, new characters. That's a given. But if some fan-fiction writers are genuinely good and creative writers, then why waste time messing around in someone else's universe? Especially if the owner/creator of said universe is outspoken against fan-fiction?
And yes, the comic book card may be coming next, in that comic writers utilise pre-existing characters down to the letter. I know that. But that's clearly not the same thing.
Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread with this nonsense. My bottom line is, I don't like the concept of fan-fiction, and respect Martin's outspoken views on the matter.
Basileus777
Member
I'm not sure where all this hostility is coming from, but I wouldn't worry about endless loops.
I'm not opposed to fanfic, per se. I mean, half of what we consider classic art is just Greco-Roman mythology and Bible fanfiction. I think it's definitely disrespectful to write fanfic of a still-living author who has specifically asked people not to, but outside of that situation, I don't think there's anything morally wrong with it. I don't read any of it since it's not really my thing, but I can see how especially in genre's based on world building, people are going to want more stories based on that world than one author can ever offer. 99% of it is crap of course, but there are always exceptions. Sherlock Holmes has basically been kept alive for decades by the fact that there's a professional industry around writing adaptations of that material.
Pretty sure GRRM has been opposing fan fiction long before JK Rowling was a thing.
Is there any harm done by fan fiction, though? It's the literary equivalent of drawing a picture of your favorite comic book characters fighting each other. I'm not sure why the author's opinion on fanfic is relevant. Fans should be able to express their appreciation for a work in any way that pleases them, as long as nobody is being hurt.
Purple Cheeto
Member
GURM is just mad that 50 Shades of Gray got popular with sex scenes that are even more poorly written and debauched than his own.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It's about having control over your creation.
Then again, I consider the TV series to be terrible fan-fiction at times, and he allows that, so... xD
The authors opinion, or shall we say, stance, on the matter is relevant to themselves because obviously they have to maintain the integrity and copyright of their work. Its just the way it works. Not sure why you are getting all up in arms about it though. Seems to me that someone writing and publishing fanfics will do so either way with little care of the authors opinions, if they are even aware them to begin with.
So GRRM doesn't embrace with a warm hug those pure-hearted souls who genuinely wish to express their appreciation by distributing ( without consent ) derivative work of his livelihood across the webs. Boo fucking hoo. I am sure they'll manage.
Wrong on what? Is he wrong trying to protect the copyright of his creation? Somehow I think not. As for homages, thinly veiled or not, I am sure GRRM support those as much as the next author.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Exactly.
Yes. You said it better than I could.
butzopower
proud of his butz
He has the legal right to protect his copyright, sure. American copyright law is pretty damn broad, he could probably go after fanfic authors in court if he really felt like it. That's a different thing from it actually being wise for him to do that. People's little online stories aren't competing with his work. There's no one out there reading fanfiction that hasn't also read the source material. And the line between what's officially published, canonical text and what's fan-made is pretty clear, so I don't think any real damage is being done to the integrity of the work. If people were trying to pass it off as official that'd be a different matter.
I totally understand his personal aversion to having to see his characters used in ways he never intended them, and he's totally within his rights to voice that opinion and ask people not to do it, and really any fan who cares at all about the author of something they care about so much should oblige him on that and refrain from writing stories set in Westeros, but I can't go as far as he does in condemning the whole idea of fanfic outright.
You have no idea how quickly I googled that hoping to crack up if it were real.
Incandenza
Banned
While I can't imagine that fanfiction has ever actually hurt the strength of a copyright (and certainly can't imagine that it's ever hurt sales of a series), copyright/trademark law is pretty crazy, especially in the U.S.. Fantasy authors like Martin and Robin Hobb, for whom the world of the story can be just as big of a deal as the story itself, probably have to take a real hardline public stance with this stuff to avoid potentially getting fucked in court if some guy decided to make a profit off unofficial material. Even more so for Martin now that Westeros is a Big Ticket Item with Big Ticket Lawyers attached to it.
There's probably some interesting legal territory you could get into if you really wanted. Can you trademark a fictional family? A fictional city? A fictional castle?
There's probably some interesting legal territory you could get into if you really wanted. Can you trademark a fictional family? A fictional city? A fictional castle?
lololol I wish. Sonic's name being shit now is sort of an interesting case here. But I'd take one Sanic 06 over a hundred "canon" Sonic games any day of the week.
In any case, copyright protects the distribution of what you write, you don't get to control the way people view or interpret your works. Authorial intent is dead long since. Nobody has ever not once had any "control over their creation". All fanfics are satire on at least some post-modern level. They're all transformative. Fanfic is the fairest of use.
Of course.
But we're conflating copyright and trademark. Fanfic obviously doesn't violate copyright because it's not a copy. Fanfic generally doesn't violate the spirit of trademark either. Trademark only matters in as far as protecting your brand from counterfeits. Ain't nobody in the world thinks fanfics so marked on the Internet are part of GRR Martin's Game of Thrones. Nobody ever bought a fanfic instead of Game of Thrones due to marketplace confusion.
Basileus777
Member
It's far from clear that GRRM has the legal right to stop fanfiction from being made. GRRM is benefiting here from being an author we like, I think the reactions would be much different if it were coming Disney or Square Enix. Fanfiction really should fall under fair use, and I can't support over-extension of copyright law regardless of if it's coming from a huge corporation or an author I like.
I've been re-reading AFFC and something struck my mind: Qyburn. I mean, I get that he wants to experiment and continue his studies, and what better way to do so that with limitless funds from stupid Cersei, but... he is there at the right time, at the right place and he wastes no time to get what he wants (I'm refering to when he makes the "pact" with Cersei after Tywin's death). It's all too convenient and he gets his way too easily. I get the impression that he has to have a secret agenda and that he is working for someone.
He went from almost a beggar at the service of the Goat to basically grand maester of the Kingdom in a flash. I'm guessing when Tarly arrives to put order there (I'm dying to see that) he will be of the first to go, and I want to see his reaction to that.
Is there any known theory as to what Qyburn might be or might want? Am I paranoid after too much ASOIAF?
He went from almost a beggar at the service of the Goat to basically grand maester of the Kingdom in a flash. I'm guessing when Tarly arrives to put order there (I'm dying to see that) he will be of the first to go, and I want to see his reaction to that.
Is there any known theory as to what Qyburn might be or might want? Am I paranoid after too much ASOIAF?
There's that theory about the Brave Companions being a sellswords company set up by Oberyn Martell...
PHOENIXZERO
Member
I think his dislike of fan fiction comes from the same place as people involved with TV/Movies/Books/Video games/Whatever who refuse to look at things written that don't go through agents or whatever other official channels. They don't want to get caught in the legal mess of being accused of stealing ideas by random people.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Copyright isn't just about financial protection, it's about creative control. If the author doesn't want someone to be touching their work in any way, that's their prerogative.
elrechazado
Banned
Furry blue mast.
Nope. That's why we have fair use, which I think most fanfic would fall under.
Nah, I think Qyburn is just a case of right place right time. He happened to be in the capital with the right set of skills exactly when someone crazy enough to actually utilize his services came to power with Cersei. He had previously treated Jaime, so he had an in with her. There's no way anyone could have plotted out attaching him to Jaime, Tywin dying, the Mountain suffering from rare poison, and Cersei taking power and deciding that saving the Mountain was worth going to every expense.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
How do you figure fanfic is fair use? The only time it might make sense is parody, and that's a stretch, since most parodies are fairly short in nature and aren't a full story.
Frank the Great
Banned
I guess fanfic is fair use in the sense that if a work isn't sold for a profit and doesn't really interfere with what the original author is doing, it probably isn't infringing on the copyright. People can write or say whatever they want.
George RR Martin is apparently considering releasing a canned but finished chapter from Dance as a short story.
I've heard he wrote two Arya chapters that never saw the light of day, but still liked them quite a bit.
I've heard he wrote two Arya chapters that never saw the light of day, but still liked them quite a bit.
PhoenixDark
Banned
He's referring to a Tyrion chapter he has mentioned many times. In the published chapter, Tyrion falls off the Shy Main during the stone men attack, and is later saved by Jon Connington. In the original chapter Tyrion falls off the ship and winds up stranded in the Sorrows, then is taken by stone men to meet the Shrouded Lord. Martin said it was a dead end because he couldn't figure out a decent, timely way to get Tyrion back into the overall story.
Fanfic can't always be considered fair use, true:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_with_fan_fiction
Still, sometimes it gets a pass depending on the nature of the work.
Note that I'm not some defender of fanfic or anything. I've never wrote or read any and have no intention of doing so in the future. I'm just not a big fan of copyright.
Huh. I was under the impression that the Shrouded Lord was a mythical character, like those of the Seven?
I'd love to see what that chapter would have entailed.
bengraven
Member
Something I was thinking about is how many loose ends we have and whether they're really loose ends or not. I feel like we need more than 3 books, but then again we have no idea how important or not certain things are going to be - I think Dance proved that. Was Quentyn going to become a formidable main character or did he die after four or so chapters? Look at Renly - we see him 2 or 3 times in Game, then we meet him again with his army and he's dead within two chapters. Aegon is on his way to accomplish more than Renly.
Aegon may not even be a big deal. With the Martells on one side, Freys and Lannisters to the north, Dorne playing neutral to the south and the power of King's Landing to the north, he's effectively surrounded. Dany could be his savior, arriving on ships with her dragons and screaming dothraki and sellswords. Or maybe she wont make it and he'll be another person like Renly
I think we'll learn that a lot just isn't important in the end. We may cry "loose ends" but who knows if that's what Martin intended. For example Stoneheart: I don't see her playing a big role at all in the series - she already hasn't. She's a legend already, whispered about among the riverlands. She doesn't even need an ending. She'll eventually fade away, rot or be taken or just die when the spark leaves her, but people will always "see" her and tell stories about her. Unless the gods play a bigger part or there's some connection between her life and wights that we'll find out later, I don't see her being undead as anything more than just a side story that ends up becoming legend.
I think in this series it will all boil down to "who will sit on the throne?", "who will be Stark in Winterfell" and "what was the point of Dany?". I think those are the three key things set up in the first few chapters of Game. Maybe it will be multiple thrones - both Jon and Tyrion have been described ("prophesied") as being king-like or throwing a king's shadow. Maybe the Seven Kingdoms isn't just a quaint title in the end. Maybe a grey scale scarred, limping dwarf is king of the Rock, sending ravens to his friend the King in the North. He said we'd be surprised who sat on the throne. Maybe one of Dany's dragons are pregnant and her entire story was not to put on the throne but for her simply bring dragons back into our world - a Maia like figure, mother of dragons forever, anti-slavery advocate forsaking her birthright as something Viserys brainwashed her into needing to do.
Either way, I just need those three questions answered. Let the rest burn.
Aegon may not even be a big deal. With the Martells on one side, Freys and Lannisters to the north, Dorne playing neutral to the south and the power of King's Landing to the north, he's effectively surrounded. Dany could be his savior, arriving on ships with her dragons and screaming dothraki and sellswords. Or maybe she wont make it and he'll be another person like Renly
I think we'll learn that a lot just isn't important in the end. We may cry "loose ends" but who knows if that's what Martin intended. For example Stoneheart: I don't see her playing a big role at all in the series - she already hasn't. She's a legend already, whispered about among the riverlands. She doesn't even need an ending. She'll eventually fade away, rot or be taken or just die when the spark leaves her, but people will always "see" her and tell stories about her. Unless the gods play a bigger part or there's some connection between her life and wights that we'll find out later, I don't see her being undead as anything more than just a side story that ends up becoming legend.
I think in this series it will all boil down to "who will sit on the throne?", "who will be Stark in Winterfell" and "what was the point of Dany?". I think those are the three key things set up in the first few chapters of Game. Maybe it will be multiple thrones - both Jon and Tyrion have been described ("prophesied") as being king-like or throwing a king's shadow. Maybe the Seven Kingdoms isn't just a quaint title in the end. Maybe a grey scale scarred, limping dwarf is king of the Rock, sending ravens to his friend the King in the North. He said we'd be surprised who sat on the throne. Maybe one of Dany's dragons are pregnant and her entire story was not to put on the throne but for her simply bring dragons back into our world - a Maia like figure, mother of dragons forever, anti-slavery advocate forsaking her birthright as something Viserys brainwashed her into needing to do.
Either way, I just need those three questions answered. Let the rest burn.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I think the answer is in ADWD when Tyrion notes one of the rumors is that when one Shrouded Lord dies, another takes his position - thus making it seem to the outside world that he is immortal, but in reality it's not too different from someone else using the Hound's helm for instance.
I wonder if it was scrapped partly because of the plot armor implications. Tyrion fell into some pretty nasty water and apparently came out unscathed (although perhaps he could be turned gray on the inside of course), but that's at least somewhat acceptable; the entire crew probably should have gotten sick when you think about it, given the mist/air. But Tyrion not only falling into the water, but being dragged to the lair of the stone men and conversing with their leader? That would reach pretty high levels of plot armor nonsense. Still it would have been interesting.
And how would Tyrion escape and re-enter ADWD's story? Maybe he'd find some small boat and get away, all while being chased by shambling stone men, somehow get into the open sea...and then run across Victarion's fleet. That would be hilarious, just to get those two together earlier.
Interesting. Did not know that. I knew there was a lost Tyrion chapter somewhere, but I didn't know he had ever discussed what was in it. Sounds like it would be a good short story about some random sailor meeting the Shrouded Lord, but it would've been pretty bad in the book. Unless the stone men are somehow important later, it would be a pretty big diversion in a book already full of diversions, and any plot that would somehow get Tyrion from there to Meereen would be pretty convoluted.
I do hope at some point after it's all done we can see the cut and rewritten material. It would be interesting to see all the ideas that didn't work out.
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