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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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Hasphat'sAnts
Member
I said it before this I started this book and I want to say it again.
It'd break my heart if Tommen and Ser Pounce were killed off. He's a good boy.
But with Martin doing the Rhaenys parallel and Kevan dead, it looks like the most love-able character in the whole series is going to die in some horribly gruesome fashion.
It'd break my heart if Tommen and Ser Pounce were killed off. He's a good boy.
But with Martin doing the Rhaenys parallel and Kevan dead, it looks like the most love-able character in the whole series is going to die in some horribly gruesome fashion.
Basileus777
Member
You can also add Maggie the Frog's prophecy. Ugh, what an awful plot device that is.Hasphat'sAnts said:
Basileus777 said:
Indeed. I hate that Maggie the Frog's prophecy is so goddamn accurate. Now way around it. It sucks.
As for Ramsay's last letter theories... If the message is actually Melisandre's work, how does she know about Reek? She couldn't see that much in her fire...
There are two things I unambiguously hate from all of GRRM's novels - his insistence on having every character dream some roll-eye worthy symbolic tripe before something happens, and the prophecy shit right there. I think every goddamn POV has a fucking dude dreaming some shit.
A blemish on an otherwise astounding series so far. I can live with it since the books are so dense, there's bound to be something in there everyone don't like... but shit GRRM. Get it done.
A blemish on an otherwise astounding series so far. I can live with it since the books are so dense, there's bound to be something in there everyone don't like... but shit GRRM. Get it done.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
think ramsay was probably just taking the piss. Stannis is a horrible jerk, so he will live a long and prosperous life in GRRM land.SoulPlaya said:
catfish said:
Stannis isn't a jerk. He's just stubborn. He believes he is the rightful heir and Stannis honor won't allow him to suffer anything else but that.
Even Eddard said Stannis had a kind of honor, even if he felt he erred on the harsh end. Harsh but fair.
Stannis problem is that he turned to Melisandre, which has now let him do a lot of dishonorable shit to try to win the throne. But he feels the ends justify the mean since it his HIS throne.
Still, as we know, Stannis dog-headed determination to keep to certain rules and standards is what marks him clearly for death. I don't know if he died yet - I'm guessing not - but he will.
Because anyone with even a LITTLE honor is killed.
It is known.
Basileus777
Member
Stannis is fucked because he's not Azor Ahai and is one of the lies Dany has to slay.
Stannis isn't a jerk. He's not likable, but that doesn't make him a bad person. I always see him as the hard-ass uncle who says it as it is, and isn't any nicer to anyone just because they're family, and no one really likes him, but he's usually always right. But when it comes to the crunch, he will do the right thing and help out with whatever he can.
You know who's a jerk? Victorian. Now that guy is a fucker. He's a lot like Stannis, except he's even MORE superstitious and a bigot to boot. What he did in Dance alone is enough for me to hope he never gets to return to the Seven Kingdoms. >_<
You know who's a jerk? Victorian. Now that guy is a fucker. He's a lot like Stannis, except he's even MORE superstitious and a bigot to boot. What he did in Dance alone is enough for me to hope he never gets to return to the Seven Kingdoms. >_<
Basileus777
Member
Other than the Stallion that mounts the world, what has turned out false? I'm sure many of them will be fulfilled in unexpected ways, but the blue eyed king with no shadow in Dany's vision is pretty obviously Stannis.Amir0x said:
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
he cut off his mates fingers. that's jerk behaviour.Amir0x said:
plus he's not that honorable, he sacrifices people to flames. He's just got a twisted view of 'honor' and isn't flexible at all. he's a monster.
GRRM has shown repeatedly that if the characters fail to ignore blatant warning signs around them and adapt they are toast. See well... everyone that died so far it was pretty telegraphed. Jons mates were all muttering for half the book
catfish said:
I think you misunderstand justice for honor. Ned is "honorable" because he does what he himself feels to be the right moral thing to do. Stannis is one who follows the law instead of his heart. It's not twisted at all. Mel sacrifices people to flames, not Stannis. Stannis merely allows her to do so, using people who would be sentenced to die anyway.
duckroll said:
I agree with you almost 100%, although I would still say that utilizing Melisandre has been the one true warped blow to his honor - he clearly has done things through her that have been more than a little messed up. Renly's death was as dishonorable as things go.
Amir0x said:
I agree, his religion has made him a harder man to agree with, especially in the eyes of others who do not follow this "new" faith that he has so readily embraced. It will also very likely be his downfall. But as far as how he behaves based on who he is and in relation to the general laws of the land, I find it hard to feel that Stannis is a bad person.
Victorian on the other hand... ugh. I actually like Euron more, because as much as he is immoral and arrogant, he is an honest dude who says what he believes and he's an open-handed raider. Actually... Euron is a really interesting guy. I hope we learn more about him and his adventures in the past in the future.
So while on the topic of Stannis and his sense of justice... what would he make of Theon after what he did? I would be shocked if Stannis knows its theon and doesn't sentence him to death and he is not likely to give a shit what Asha or Jeyne have to say. his best bet is to lay low til he gets away from Stannis.
Pkaz01 said:
If Davos can actually recover Rickon and hence prove that Theon did not kill both Stark brothers, I can see Stannis allowing him to take the black, given the circumstances. If Stannis actually believes that Theon killed both Stark brothers and was solely responsible for killing everyone in the castle, he will be given to the flames.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
I can agree with this interpretation of stannis.Amir0x said:
Although, I think being this adherent to the law (religious crazyness not withstanding) IS jerk behaviour.
Also think that the fire woman is some sort of really elaborate fraud.
duckroll said:
I'm quasi-certain Theon will manage to escape during the battle of Winterfell. He's the only major Ironborn player who didn't get to participate in the Kingsmoot, and Asha clearly want to use that. She had that idea at Deepwood Motte (well, I assume that's what she thought), and it's clearly a hint of things to come.
Pollux
Member
I don't know if I agree with you about Renly, they were at war, and Stannis could claim ignorance. Theoretically the most dishonorable thing he could have done was sleep with Melisandre.Amir0x said:
She could have come to him, saying let me show you how potent my magic can be, but first you must sleep with me. Well, who would say no to that, married to what he's married to. It happens, and Renly dies. He was said to be haunted by what he'd done, but maybe he only found out the consequences of what he did later on.
If you read closely, he acts differently from that point forward, so I could see that having changed him. He lost some of his soul that night, and after that I feel like he went from being honorable, to having the warped sense of honor.
I just can't believe that before the shadow baby he would have stopped that low, knowingly.
PhoenixDark said:
That's precisely the reason I don't think it's Dany. She fits the prophecy too well, and it would be like GRRM to use her as misdirection. Further, if GRRM meant the wound to be steaming, he would've written it as such. But he deliberately chose to describe it as "smoking," which has been used twice to describe both Victarion's healing and Drogon's wounds. I highly doubt that's just coincidence.
Blue Ninja
Member
The fact that Ramsay says Stannis is dead, yet doesn't know Reek is with them, is telling enough.Dresden said:
I also think Jon's going to live. Martin just wanted to troll us because we were bitching about the long wait for Dance, I'm sure of it. He'll be alive and kicking during Winds of Winter. Maybe Melisandre will "revive" him, and because he "died" he's no longer bound to his vow to the Night's Watch.
Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell suplot incoming.
catfish said:
In some (not all) ways I respect that more than Ned's adherence to honor, because honor is vain and subjective. If you really want to do something, you can convince yourself that it is the honorable thing to do. There may be some leeway in how a law is interpreted, but at least it provides something of an objective framework to keep you honest.
hermitpurple
Member
how can you hate stannis he's the mannis
duckroll said:
I'm holding out hope that he spares Theon's life because he brought him "Arya." He won't let him go free (his sense of duty would prevent him from going that far) but he may decide to send him to the wall (also knowing Jon needs men), instead of feeding him to the flames.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Stannis is going to crown Theon king of the Iron Islands, then burn him. He'll award him for the good, then punish him for the bad. And he really likes the idea of burning king's blood.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
Stannis never recognized Balon as a king, though, nor would it be in his interest to recognize any king of the Iron Islands. And it's worth remembering that Stannis has not burned anyone for that reason yet. Edric Storm was taken away before Stannis made a decision, and he didn't really burn Mance Rayder.
I just hope that Theon and Asha don't return to the Iron Islands any time soon to try to get Theon crowned King. I really just don't give a shit who's "king" of that boring, horrible setting and culture.
Theon had some of the best chapters in Dance and has become one of the most interesting characters in the series (wow, never thought I'd be saying that before this book), and I don't want that ruined by having him return to the Iron Islands. I want him to stay in the North and continue towards some sort of redemption.
Theon had some of the best chapters in Dance and has become one of the most interesting characters in the series (wow, never thought I'd be saying that before this book), and I don't want that ruined by having him return to the Iron Islands. I want him to stay in the North and continue towards some sort of redemption.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I hope any return to the Iron Islands (and I'm sure there will be one) is a short one. I don't really care for their culture either. The story is always the strongest in mainland Westeros. Bring it all home George.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Anyone else notice the hints to a Rickard and Brandon Stark succession from the Seven Kingdoms? I don't quite remember the exact chapter but I remember the context suggested the reason to betrothing Brandon to Catelyn was an early effort to separate the kingdom with the Tully's as the front most boundary of the North's territory. I am surprised I haven't seen this mentioned in any fan theories over at Westeros (I would shine some spotlight on the idea myself but I can't post topics) so I figured I would get the discussion started here first. Any thoughts? Did anyone else get a hostile vibe from the North regarding the rest of the realm stemming from House Stark?
elrechazado
Banned
I think you mean secession. I didn't read that into the quote, I read it as stark wanting to marry his son to one of the other great houses, a high marriage, rather than to one of his vassals. This seems to happen all the time in the series, and not as a prelude to secession, but to an expansion of influence through marriage.shadowsdarknes said:
shadowsdarknes
Member
elrechazao said:
Of course they want to expand their influence further, however they are already recognized as one of the principle houses in the seven kingdoms (Lannister, Stark, Targaryen). A Tully marriage to the Starks seems to me more advantageous to the Tully's. Rickard and Brandon came off as recklessly ambitious in Dance, in my opinion, but I need to pinpoint the chapters they are mentioned in to find evidence to support my theory.
Basileus777
Member
shadowsdarknes said:
Rickard's network of alliances worked, it's what brought down the Targs. And if Lysa Arryn hadn't turned her back on her family, it would have probably resulted in Robb winning the war. His southron alliances turned out rather well, I don't think he could have predicted that Rhaegar would run off with his daughter and that Aerys would kill him and Brandon.
I really, really hope that Jon Snow isn't revived by Melisandre. I really, really hope that Martin throws everyone a curve ball and instead of being instantly revived, the Wildlings fight off Snow's attackers and Snow then has to heal from the wounds the good old fashion way (a lot of coughing, bed stricken time, blood, and agony).
shadowsdarknes
Member
Basileus777 said:
This can't be denied. It did work. If House Arryn had joined forces with the northern army, then yes they would have prevailed. Perhaps the hostility I read was towards the Targs rather than the entire realm. I need to find the passages that gave me the idea of Rickard and House Stark breaking away from Targ control.
Basileus777
Member
Brandon was engaged much earlier, IIRC it was when Cat was still 12 years old. Ned took Brandon's part to secure the alliance during the rebellion.tokkun said:
It's not said that Rickard want to secede or anything like that, just that he had "southron ambitions." It could just be a product of Barbrey Ryswell's bitterness, but I think GRRM was hinting at something there. It seems like Starks generally married into other northern houses, but Rickard had his son marry a Tully, his daughter marry a Baratheon, and had Ned raised in the vale as a ward of Jon Arryn together with Robert. That seems like a deliberate attempt to expand his family's influence.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
tokkun said:
Robert's rebellion didn't begin until after Brandon was dead. Rickard was probably going for something. Brandon to a Tully, Lyanna to a Baratheon, it would have been awesome if he'd tried to wed Ned to Cersei.
ShadyMilkman
Banned
greasy smoke
tokkun said:
Answered already, but that was Ned. In order for the Tully's to support the rebellion, both Ned and Jon Arryn had to marry his daughters hence the double wedding shortly after hostilities broke out. Of course it was easier with Ned as he was mainly following tradition.
It's not really apparent what Rickard was planning with the other lords here, but some assume it was to spark up some revolution. Though it's not supported in the books really. Though it is amusing how it's those houses that rose up in rebellion anyways with these marriage alliances (Stark, Baratheon, Tully, and Arryn).
shadowsdarknes said:
The chapter you're likely referring to is the one where Lady Dustin speaks with Theon in the crypts and questions the motives of the maesters and suggests it was Winterfell's maester who influenced Rickard Stark and planted the seed to foster alliances with the Tully. Whereas before, I think the Starks largely kept to themselves in the North and never really bothered to enter the political fray in the South. I got the sense from ADWD that the Tully marriage alliance was a break from the norm in Stark's traditional isolationism, along with sending away Ned to the Vale to be fostered with a Baratheon.
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