Support NeoGAF

[Burli]

Well I finished ADWD last night.

I feel strange, deflated almost. I was lucky enough to discover these books late so this is the first book where I've finished without the next book waiting for me (only had to wait a couple of months for ADWD after finishing AFFC). Either way it's a horrible feeling knowing I could have to wait up to 5 years to continue the story.

The book was brilliant, as expected. Not only was it brilliant itself but it also made AFFC a better book. I remember feeling like AFFC was the weakest book in the series, now I don't feel like there is a weaker book at all.

So many cliff-hangers. Jon of course being the biggest one, he won't be dead, but all matter of things could have happened to him, most likely the possibility that he's skin-changed into Ghost and will be trapped there. Jaime is being led into a trap, Tyrion, well I'm not really sure what's happening there. Daenerys going back to her Dothraki roots - it's all too much to handle.

Loved this book.

 

[apana]

I'm not 100% sure, but I *think* it was after Jon's wolf dream that Bran said he remembered speaking to Jon in a dream. I just have a big problem with the implications of cross-time communication, more-so than even prophecies, so I hope this isn't the case.

Does Bran say what the content of that dream was? Is it possible that Bloodraven can somehow use Bran's mind and send messages to people? George is a tricky dude, he gives a lot of clues but also leaves things open to interpretation. One thing is for sure, by the time he was writing Clash of Kings he already knew what Bran's story arc was going to be for the future books.

 

[jon bones]

There is always the Trunks/DBZ theory, meaning that it is Bran from another dimension talking to Jon. Bran is attempting to change the past but the past wont change for him, he can however create alternate timelines by messing with the past. The story we are reading may actually be an alternate timeline. Maybe the original timeline ends with all the Starks dead and the Others conquering Westeros, Bran is trying to change that.

that and your wizard duel ideas are both pretty sketchy... i hope we steer clear from both of those. even the time travel bran speaking to jon thing kind of sucks.

 

[apana]

that and your wizard duel ideas are both pretty sketchy... i hope we steer clear from both of those. even the time travel bran speaking to jon thing kind of sucks.

Ha ha, I just like idea of wizards dueling, I'm pretty sure nothing like that will happen. Though I do think we will see some impressive magic in the future books. I don't really like time travel either, just cause it creates all kinds of confusion.

 

[levious]

I just had assumed it was Bran then talking to Jon, not future Bran. In his early dreams he always seemed very capable in his abilities, like that first big one where he basically viewed the entirety of Westeros.

 

[apana]

I just had assumed it was Bran then talking to Jon, not future Bran. In his early dreams he always seemed very capable in his abilities, like that first big one where he basically viewed the entirety of Westeros.

That wasn't his dream alone. The three eyed crow was communicating with him.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

If Bran remembers speaking to Jon in a dream it would have to be in the last chapter of ACOK. So that would be the place to look if anyone has the book handy (although in that chapter I think he really just talks about warging into Summer). I vaguely remember something like that, but I could just be remembering Bran talking about how he and Summer help Jon in ASOS.

 

[Griffith]

If Bran remembers speaking to Jon in a dream it would have to be in the last chapter of ACOK. So that would be the place to look if anyone has the book handy. I vaguely remember something like that, but I could just be remembering Bran talking about how he and Summer help Jon in ASOS.

Yep, it's from his last ACOK chapter.

Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Yep, it's from his last ACOK chapter.

Ahh, there we go.

 

[tokkun]

I don't know. If it is really future Bran, that opens up a lot of questions.

-Why don't we have future Bran talking to people constantly throughout the series?
-Why talk to Jon in this seemingly meaningless way and not to anyone else in any of the much more important scenarios?

It seems to make more sense if it is just Jon having some kind of green dream and connecting with present Bran.

 

[levious]

during that sequence when he was viewing past times, wasn't the point made that he could not communicate to people in the past?

 

[jon bones]

during that sequence when he was viewing past times, wasn't the point made that he could not communicate to people in the past?

yes

 

[apana]

Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that.

I think that basically rules out time travel then. Still there are a lot of questions in the dream Jon saw. In Jon's dream that tree had Bran's face but also red eyes which were staring at him. Bran doesn't have red eyes. How could Bran get powers to awaken Jon's third eye and why would he choose the form of a weirwood? Why would the tree say I like living in the dark, from what I remember Bran didn't enjoy hiding out in the crypts at Winterfell. If time travel is ruled out then there are only two options:

Bloodraven is using Bran's mind somehow or

Jon is having a greendream. Maybe Jon and Bran are sharing a greendream.

 

[Tacitus_]

I think that basically rules out time travel then. Still there are a lot of questions in the dream Jon saw. In Jon's dream that tree had Bran's face but also red eyes which were staring at him. Bran doesn't have red eyes. How could Bran get powers to awaken Jon's third eye and why would he choose the form of a weirwood? Why would the tree say I like living in the dark, from what I remember Bran didn't enjoy hiding out in the crypts at Winterfell. If time travel is ruled out then there are only two options:

Bloodraven is using Bran's mind somehow or

Jon is having a greendream. Maybe Jon and Bran are sharing a greendream.

The carved weirwood trees have red features, no? The simplest answer is that he just saw the trees face.

 

[apana]

The carved weirwood trees have red features, no? The simplest answer is that he just saw the trees face.

Alright then it's possible I led everyone on a wild goose chase. Still there is stuff about that passage that is awfully curious to me. Also the way Bran describes his dream, he "touched" Jon, but doesn't describe what happened in the dream seems strange to me. I can see George as the type of person who was planning this out years ahead and made sure certain things were open to interpretation. I get the feeling that Bran's story arc was one of the first he had written out when the books were originally planned as a trilogy and that may also be the reason we have so few Bran chapters.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Well I finished ADWD last night.

I feel strange, deflated almost. I was lucky enough to discover these books late so this is the first book where I've finished without the next book waiting for me (only had to wait a couple of months for ADWD after finishing AFFC). Either way it's a horrible feeling knowing I could have to wait up to 5 years to continue the story.

The book was brilliant, as expected. Not only was it brilliant itself but it also made AFFC a better book. I remember feeling like AFFC was the weakest book in the series, now I don't feel like there is a weaker book at all.

So many cliff-hangers. Jon of course being the biggest one, he won't be dead, but all matter of things could have happened to him, most likely the possibility that he's skin-changed into Ghost and will be trapped there. Jaime is being led into a trap, Tyrion, well I'm not really sure what's happening there. Daenerys going back to her Dothraki roots - it's all too much to handle.

Loved this book.

That's absolutely the best part about ADWD, if you pay attention to what it's doing, it makes AFFC a lot better than people think it is.

 

[IamMattFox]

So I was looking at the cast of new season 2 characters in the TV thread and Wiki'd Jaqen H'ghar for a bit of a refresh.

He gives Arya the coin and:

"Then he announced that 'Jaqen H'ghar' must die, and passed a hand over his face. His entire face magically reshaped into that of a hook-nosed man with a gold tooth."

Visit Daario Naharis' page and you'll see him described as having "a large, curving nose" and, of course, his much maligned gold tooth is there too.

So is Daario really Arya's old bro?

I really need to re-read the earlier books at some point.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

So I was looking at the cast of new season 2 characters in the TV thread and Wiki'd Jaqen H'ghar for a bit of a refresh.

He gives Arya the coin and:

"Then he announced that 'Jaqen H'ghar' must die, and passed a hand over his face. His entire face magically reshaped into that of a hook-nosed man with a gold tooth."

Visit Daario Naharis' page and you'll see him described as having "a large, curving nose" and, of course, his much maligned gold tooth is there too.

So is Daario really Arya's old bro?

I really need to re-read the earlier books at some point.

Pretty sure Jaqen is now Pate the pig boy.

 

[sazabirules]

The Alchemist is Arya's old bro.

 

[KingGondo]

So I was looking at the cast of new season 2 characters in the TV thread and Wiki'd Jaqen H'ghar for a bit of a refresh.

He gives Arya the coin and:

"Then he announced that 'Jaqen H'ghar' must die, and passed a hand over his face. His entire face magically reshaped into that of a hook-nosed man with a gold tooth."

Visit Daario Naharis' page and you'll see him described as having "a large, curving nose" and, of course, his much maligned gold tooth is there too.

So is Daario really Arya's old bro?

I really need to re-read the earlier books at some point.

I feel like Daario is introduced before Jaqen gives Arya the coin, but I honestly can't remember.

Very interesting theory.

 

[IamMattFox]

Pretty sure Jaqen is now Pate the pig boy.

Ah, yes. Forgot about that guy...

 

[apana]

So I was looking at the cast of new season 2 characters in the TV thread and Wiki'd Jaqen H'ghar for a bit of a refresh.

He gives Arya the coin and:

"Then he announced that 'Jaqen H'ghar' must die, and passed a hand over his face. His entire face magically reshaped into that of a hook-nosed man with a gold tooth."

Visit Daario Naharis' page and you'll see him described as having "a large, curving nose" and, of course, his much maligned gold tooth is there too.

So is Daario really Arya's old bro?

I really need to re-read the earlier books at some point.

I don't think so but I feel that Arya is going to be given a mission to assassinate Dany at some point. The faceless men will assassinate anyone for money right? I have a feeling some of the slavers will want Dany assassinated.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

I don't think so but I feel that Arya is going to be given a mission to assassinate Dany at some point.

The Iron Bank is a player in the story now. They have a representative in the 7 kingdoms now. I'm betting they send her to kill Cersei.

I doubt anyone needs to spend tons of gold to get someone to kill Dany. There are people in her city that are killing her own guards.

 

[sooperkool]

I think that basically rules out time travel then. Still there are a lot of questions in the dream Jon saw. In Jon's dream that tree had Bran's face but also red eyes which were staring at him. Bran doesn't have red eyes. How could Bran get powers to awaken Jon's third eye and why would he choose the form of a weirwood? Why would the tree say I like living in the dark, from what I remember Bran didn't enjoy hiding out in the crypts at Winterfell. If time travel is ruled out then there are only two options:
Bloodraven is using Bran's mind somehow or
Jon is having a greendream. Maybe Jon and Bran are sharing a greendream.

Where are you getting these crazy ass theories from? Wizard duels, Alternate dimensions? Mind control? None of that has ever been i any of the books in any form... are you reading the same series we are? any f those things would utterly destroy what these books are about.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

At least the time travel part is in the books. Bran sees Ned's sister and brother fighting in the woods as kids.

 

[Aselith]

At least the time travel part is in the books. Bran sees Ned's sister and brother fighting in the woods as kids.

Think of it more like racial memory through the trees. He's seeing what the trees saw. He's not actually there.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below.

Then all at once he was back home again.

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the gods wood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man’s gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard’s lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

“Winterfell,” Bran whispered.

His father looked up. “Who’s there?” he asked, turning … … and Bran, frightened, pulled away



Though I don't think there's going to be any time travel. That would be pretty dumb in the story.

 

[elrechazado]

Think of it more like racial memory through the trees. He's seeing what the trees saw. He's not actually there.

yeah, this

 

[apana]

Where are you getting these crazy ass theories from? Wizard duels, Alternate dimensions? Mind control? None of that has ever been i any of the books in any form... are you reading the same series we are? any f those things would utterly destroy what these books are about.

The bolded stuff was said kind of jokingly from me. I've put out a lot of different possiblities without saying any of them was right, so obviously you can pick out the stranger ones and act like I'm going nuts. You are seriously exaggerating though if you think mind control will destroy the books. I think what Bran's powers will turn out to be and how he will use them is up in the air at this point.

 

[exarkun]

I'm re-reading the books, since I finished all of the earlier released what like 4 years ago? Im doing it so I can know whats going on in the new book.

I just hit the Red Wedding. Completely forgot about it, I don't know how I could. First moment that I felt genuinely bad about a character dying, other than maybe Ned. But Ned was much too honorable for his own good which took a little away from his death. Robb on the other hand, I feel terrible about. Especially about the way it was done. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

The other thing I always feel bad about is Arya. Her eventually going blind (end of book 4? or is it 3?) kinda made me a little sad. Her treatment is awful and she is intelligent and fierce. Her path is an interesting one, but sometimes the ill things that happens to her feel like Martin is just kicking a person when they are down just for shock. Maybe thats why I feel like Robb's death was terrible.

Worst thing about re-reading is that I remember bits and pieces and of the earlier books but I can remember most of Feast so...the day to day chapters are new but the end result I can remember. Weird feeling.

 

[sooperkool]

The bolded stuff was said kind of jokingly from me. I've put out a lot of different possiblities without saying any of them was right, so obviously you can pick out the stranger ones and act like I'm going nuts. You are seriously exaggerating though if you think mind control will destroy the books. I think what Bran's powers will turn out to be and how he will use them is up in the air at this point.

You don't think that mind control completely out of the blue injected into this somewhat gritty political drama set in medieval times would not destroy the milieu as it has been currently depicted? Why don't you add aliens and spaceships as well....

I don't understand you guys sometimes.

 

[QuiteWhittle]

Mind control? None of that has ever been i any of the books in any form... are you reading the same series we are? any f those things would utterly destroy what these books are about.

Skinchanging?

 

[John Harker]

Skinchanging?

Add warging, resurrection, zombies (Robert Strong), tree talking (and living as a tree, mind you), fire invulnerability, clairvoyance, wrights, etc etc etc, and 'political drama' kind of loses it's weight a bit, no?

 

[Dresden]

I don't think so but I feel that Arya is going to be given a mission to assassinate Dany at some point. The faceless men will assassinate anyone for money right? I have a feeling some of the slavers will want Dany assassinated.

More like the Faceless Men themselves would have reason to see a Valyrian+Dragon dead. I mean, think about where they came from.

 

[apana]

You don't think that mind control completely out of the blue injected into this somewhat gritty political drama set in medieval times would not destroy the milieu as it has been currently depicted? Why don't you add aliens and spaceships as well....

I don't understand you guys sometimes.

You are getting a little bit carried away. This is a series where Melisandre birthed shadow babies, can change people's appearances using her magic, and is planning on awakening a dragon through a sacrifice of royal blood. Ice demons are awakening from thousand plus year slumbers to destroy all of humanity using corpses that they can bring back to life, there is even the possiblity of ice spiders. Little girls can get training on how to be an assassin and have face transplants. There are giants, dragons, mammoths, and horns that can bring down gigantic walls of ice and others horns that can be used to mind fuck dragons. Old men that can extend their lives by fusing with trees and hang out with little people that live hundreds of years. A main character returned as a zombie bent on revenge and people regularly have visions of the future that turn out to be true.

Not to mention that in the first chapter of Dance with Dragons we have a dude who tried to take posession of a lady's whole body, that is way more than mind control. Oh and George is at the very least playing around with time as a concept, the idea that it is different depending on perspective: Weirwood vs human.

fake edit: beaten.

 

[Basileus777]

By the end of ADWD, ASOIAF is not just a "political drama set in medieval times." The fantasy elements have become omnipresent at this stage in the series.

I think Theon and Davos' chapters may have been the only plot line with multiple chapters in ADWD that didn't involve magic or the supernatural in some significant way.

 

[bluemax]

By the end of ADWD, ASOIAF is not merely a "political drama set in medieval times." The fantasy elements have become omnipresent at this stage in the series.

I think Theon and Davos' chapters may have been the only plot line with multiple chapters in ADWD that didn't involve magic or the supernatural in some significant way.

The gritty political drama died in book 3.

Now if only it would stop being a boring telenovela and get back to being the fantasy novel I was promised.

 

[Pkaz01]

I don't think so but I feel that Arya is going to be given a mission to assassinate Dany at some point. The faceless men will assassinate anyone for money right? I have a feeling some of the slavers will want Dany assassinated.

I agree with this. The facelessmen aren't dumb they know that Arya knows Cersei and that Cersei killed her dad. But Arya has no idea who Dany is and the Faceless man have no reason to like dragons.

 

[ZephyrFate]

The gritty political drama died in book 3.

Now if only it would stop being a boring telenovela and get back to being the fantasy novel I was promised.

AFFC/ADWD are the fantasy novel that was promised, though.

 

[Arcblade]

AFFC/ADWD are the fantasy novel that was promised, though.

I'm fairly certain he meant that AFFC and ADWD were telenovela material.

i.e. they read an awful lot like the scenes were set up for scenes in a T.V. series (imagine that).

I myself got that feeling on many occasions during ADWD in particular.

 

[ZephyrFate]

I'm fairly certain he meant that AFFC and ADWD were telenovela material.

i.e. they read an awful lot like the scenes were set up for scenes in a T.V. series (imagine that).

I myself got that feeling on many occasions during ADWD in particular.

But that's exactly what I disagree with. I know what he meant, but I found it to be total hogwash, swept down the stream like detritus down the Rhoyne river.

 

[Arcblade]

But that's exactly what I disagree with. I know what he meant, but I found it to be total hogwash, swept down the stream like detritus.

I guess he and I disagree with you, then.

Because there are tons of scenes in ADWD that smack so hard of made for T.V. scripting, that I found myself turning the other cheek and receiving the hamfisted back-swing I expected, time and time again.

 

[ZephyrFate]

I guess he and I disagree with you, then.

Because there are tons of scenes in ADWD that smack so hard of made for T.V. scripting, that I found myself turning the other cheek and receiving the hamfisted back-swing I expected, time and time again.

Dany's chapters, at least in the first half, come close to this level, but are nowhere near telenovela level and that is just straight hyperbole, like a lot (or all, really) of ADWD bashing has been.

 

[Arcblade]

Dany's chapters, at least in the first half, come close to this level, but are nowhere near telenovela level and that is just straight hyperbole, like a lot of ADWD bashing has been.

Nah - if anything, the downplaying by fans of the telenovela aspect is hyperbole of an exaggerated understatement.

Some scenes are so trasparently telenovella, that if you look hard enough, you can still see where Martin applied the whiteout for the setting notes.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Nah - if anything, the downplaying by fans of the telenovela aspect is hyperbole of an exaggerated understatement.

Some scenes are so trasparently telenovella, that if you look hard enough, you can still see where Martin applied the whiteout for the setting notes.

give me some examples and I'll attempt to agree with you. Right now it just really seems like you're a huge fan of telenovellas and want to compare ADWD to them.

 

[Arcblade]

give me some examples and I'll attempt to agree with you. Right now it just really seems like you're a huge fan of telenovellas and want to compare ADWD to them.

Actually, I'm a serious fan of AGoT, ACoK, and ASoS.

As to your request, you gave perfect voice to the most damning ones, yourself, earlier.

i.e. pick a Dany chapter.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Actually, I'm a serious fan of AGoT, ACoK, and ASoS.

As to your request, you gave perfect voice to the most damning ones, yourself, earlier.

i.e. pick a Dany chapter.

Drogon's scene is nothing like a telenova. Nor is her last one. Nor are ones that involve Barristan to some degree.

The only ones that even come close are her bitching about her lovers, but the amount of political intrigue and backstabbing wouldn't even close.

I say you're reaching.

I am a huge fan of the first three books as well, but ADWD/AFFC are exactly on their level if not better in some ways. So there.

 

[Arcblade]

Drogon's scene is nothing like a telenova. Nor is her last one. Nor are ones that involve Barristan to some degree.

The only ones that even come close are her bitching about her lovers, but the amount of political intrigue and backstabbing wouldn't even close.

I say you're reaching.

I am a huge fan of the first three books as well, but ADWD/AFFC are exactly on their level if not better in some ways. So there.

I say what with Dany turning into a whining, indecisive, and pining twit, isn't exactly reaching.

"Oh... my dragons must be chained - because of a little girl... *sniffle* it was LITTLE GIRL...

(forget about all of the little girls who died in her wars - they are irrelevant if not McDrackal's fastfood.)

"Oh Darrio!"

*insert drawn out pining over Dario, then insert Darrio in all three holes, per details.*

*Who is going to betray me... tune in tomorrow.*

*Let's drag this shit out another few hundred more pages... now how can Martin effectively write a lingering shot of my face conveying pure emotive turmoil for ten pages at a toss?*

Pretty much everything that happened in Mereen is antithetical to the badass, no nonsense "I am the blood of dragons, reborn of fire" queen she had become by the finsh of ASoS.

Very nearly everything in ADWD involving her was reduced to reality T.V. levels of "drama".

Lifetime Network ought to opt for the ADWD season.

 

[AcciDante]

I always feel like people that don't like Dany's chapters forget that she's young and decided to stay in Mereen to learn how to rule...I was planning on writing more to this post, but I think that sums up everything about where she is at this point. :/

 

[Sotha Sil]

I always feel like people that don't like Dany's chapters forget that she's young and decided to stay in Mereen to learn how to rule...I was planning on writing more to this post, but I think that sums up everything about where she is at this point. :/

I think the problem is that realism doesn't necessarily make for good literature. Are Dany's behavior and actions believable? Yes. Is it interesting? No - in my opinion. Staying in Mereen and falling for Daario are decisions/feelings that you would expect from Dany, but they are quite boring developments. Again, in my opinion.