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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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Realizing how agonizing this wait is going to be makes me wish I didn't start the series until it was finished.
The reason the lack of progression in DWD didn't both me so much was because of how awesome stuff in the north was, and how I had just read four books in a row with tyrion/dany plot movement so it's not as if I had waited 5+ years like everyone else.
The reason the lack of progression in DWD didn't both me so much was because of how awesome stuff in the north was, and how I had just read four books in a row with tyrion/dany plot movement so it's not as if I had waited 5+ years like everyone else.
pr0cs
Member
That's a stretch. More like it wasn't used because she had been trying to read the fires. She also had not eaten either.Man said:
I believe that Mance is actually captured by Ramsay, the note did give too much info regarding the fake 'sacrifice' at the wall, unless Mance told all the spearwives I suspect Ramsay 'flayed' the information out of Mance.
I do suspect that Stannis is still alive and what remains of his army is stuck 3 miles from Winterfell due to the storm, there are some lies in the Bastard of Bolton's letter but some truths.
Overall I like the series, I hadn't read a fantasy story in a long time, certainly not something this large since the Dragonlance books from Hicks and Weiss and this is a lot more complicated and interesting.
I can't believe that we'll have to wait years to get the next book, I just hope that there was enough cut from ADWD to have a good head start in the next book.
platypotamus
Member
pr0cs said:
It's not a stretch at all. It's clear way back in ACOK that Stannis is banging Melisandre. It's pretty much explicitly stated that the shadow she uses to murder Renly is offspring from this coupling.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Finished it this past weekend, great, great book. Definitely has an odd pacing because it starts with Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Tyrion ... then for the climax we get a lot of random new POV's, but as far as "stuff that happened" Im pretty pleased.
I dont think Jon is dead. Whenever GRMM kills a character he goes into the details for a while, especially if its an important character like Ned or Robb .. and Jon is more important than both of those and he barely got into describing how he was attacked, so from a narrative standpoint I dont think he killed him. Story and logic wise, the Wildlings numbers are 5:1 in relation to how many members of the Nightswatch are present there, so I dont think they justs tood there and watched Jon get killed, I think they interfered and Wun Wun especially, since he was the closest
I dont think Jon is dead. Whenever GRMM kills a character he goes into the details for a while, especially if its an important character like Ned or Robb .. and Jon is more important than both of those and he barely got into describing how he was attacked, so from a narrative standpoint I dont think he killed him. Story and logic wise, the Wildlings numbers are 5:1 in relation to how many members of the Nightswatch are present there, so I dont think they justs tood there and watched Jon get killed, I think they interfered and Wun Wun especially, since he was the closest
pr0cs
Member
Heh, I didn't get that at all but I suppose you're right. This thread seems to elaborate on it.platypotamus said:
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/51146-melisandre-and-stannis/
I guess I missed the innuendo there.
elrechazado
Banned
Yeah, there was tons of insinuation that Stannis was being "comforted" by mel, that she shared/warmed his bed, shadow babies, and tons of other little things. About the only thing that isn't said is "he had his cock in her red ass".
Man said:
All I know is that for Jon to die would be pretty pointless to the story.
Eddard's death was the first real symbol of the 'You win or you die' tagline and a massive slap around the face for the readers expecting the norm when it came to their heroes.
The red wedding was a massive shock and completely turned everything on it's head.
If Jon is dead however, I just don't get it. To be honest when I read the chapter I just felt kind of nothing-ness at the end of it, I had an almost 'well John won't die, because it would be too stupid' feeling going on. What would his death teach us, don't trust the men in black? Don't trust anyone? We've been told that a million times. Also, how would it effect or change the story?
On another note, it would kind of make the first chapter pointless, finding out about the wilding skin changing into the wolf that eventually becomes Summer's bitch. Surely that chapter is a set up for Jon's skin-change?
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
platypotamus said:
Yeah. ACOK made it pretty clear Stannis was hitting that. She used him up and was trying to move on to Davos.
I took my time with DWD and finally finished it tonight. There is much and more I can say about the story but ill just drop a few notes
I wish the Bran chapters didn't end so early in the book. It gets a little kooky and I'd love to have just one more chapter with Bran in the trees.
Everything with Jon was great. His last chapter is a hell of a ride. But if he is indeed inside Ghost, then I'd still say he was "dead". At least as a character that we can identify with. What would we read about in a future book? Ghosts hunting trips?
Dany had a few too many repetitive chapters for my taste but it picked up a bit before the wedding takes place.
I've never been able to feel engaged by any Dorne characters or chapters. This was no exception.
I don't think I like Penny as a companion for Tyrion. It just seems a bit too convenient as a story device to pair him up with someone so naive and opposite him in temperament.
Looking forward to more of arya the assassin.
I wish the Bran chapters didn't end so early in the book. It gets a little kooky and I'd love to have just one more chapter with Bran in the trees.
Everything with Jon was great. His last chapter is a hell of a ride. But if he is indeed inside Ghost, then I'd still say he was "dead". At least as a character that we can identify with. What would we read about in a future book? Ghosts hunting trips?
Dany had a few too many repetitive chapters for my taste but it picked up a bit before the wedding takes place.
I've never been able to feel engaged by any Dorne characters or chapters. This was no exception.
I don't think I like Penny as a companion for Tyrion. It just seems a bit too convenient as a story device to pair him up with someone so naive and opposite him in temperament.
Looking forward to more of arya the assassin.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
LCfiner said:
ON NO YOU DI'INT!
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
I think the biggest and most pleasant surprise for me were the Barristan Selmy chapters, what a fucking badass.
TerminalDogma
Member
What was with the random one-off Mel chapter? She had her name in the actual chapter too, as opposed to most other one off characters having some title as the name of their chapter. In fact, what is with that? Why didn't Barristan just have his name? He had more chapters then Mel. Almost if not as much as Davos.
I know it's a tired joke at this point but I couldn't help it.dabig2 said:
I really don't get how people who read the books didn't see the Renly/Loras relationship. He beats you over the head with references throughout then it culminates with Jaime telling Loras that he'll shove his sword up his ass into areas where Renly would have only dreamed reaching. I swear some people must skim/speed read or something.
Something I didn't understand, why were Mance's spearwives so protective of Eddard's memory? When they got offended/mad at Theon when he said "winter is coming"...
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
TerminalDogma said:
To set up Jon's probable future revival and the whole Azor Ahai thing I guess.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Jon isn't dead, but... I think some are maybe a bit too optimistic with all that "yeah, now Jon is free to leave the Wall and he'll travell all around Seven Kingdoms and learn about his roots and being a Targaryen and everything." I think Jon really won't survive so unharmed from this that he could do all those things. Even if the stabs weren't deadly (four stabbings is bad, but it's survivable if they didn't hit any vital organs and he got help asap) or there's some magic involved in keeping him alive (or as a Catelyn-like zombie), there will be consequences for it. He might be crippled or somehow otherwise "changed" for the worse.Burli said:
IamMattFox
Member
You have to have someone tell the story of the wall in the next book. With the Jonster likely dead (for a bit, at least), I guess it'll be her.TerminalDogma said:
IamMattFox said:
good point. I, too, was wondering why there was one lone Mel chapter. seemed very odd. this makes a lot of sense
I liked her chapter for the insight in her character. he definitely believes in what she's doing, but is aware of how theatrics helps her win the confidence of others.
TerminalDogma
Member
Yes thats true, with Jon gone she's how we will see the Wall. I understood the point of the chapter as a look into her mind (and to also show that she really isn't BSing. She does believe Stannis is Azor Azhai and has quite the bit of powerful magic.) but it seemed weird to me that it was only one chapter. Still seems a bit weird, but it makes sense now as introducing her as the new Wall POV.
Pokielhl said:
Yeah, that was previously the pattern, but it's not so clear anymore. Theon, for example, has several non-named chapters in ADWD. Even excluding "Reek", there's A Ghost in Winterfell and Prince of Winterfell, but he also has named chapters in the same book. All of Arya's chapters were unnamed in ADWD as well.
I wonder if Jon Connington would be a named character but for the fact that we already have a "Jon".
Also, I don't think Quentyn got any named chapters.
platypotamus
Member
I think the named/non-named choice is a very deliberate one GRRM makes. Arya/Theon/Sansa are perfect examples of what I mean. Their chapter names change as their persona/identity changes. The fact that Theon's final chapter in ADWD is back to being Theon rather than something else reflect his own development as a character as well. It'll be a big and meaningful thing if/when Arya/Sansa have chapters named after them again as well (and a potentially super scary thing if there's an Arya chapter called "No One").
platypotamus
Member
pr0cs said:
Yes, plus we see Arya cheating in her training, and clearly holding on to her identity and hiding it from her instructors. While I do accept the possibility her story will have a tragic ending, I do not think she will become a full faceless one.
elrechazado
Banned
Arya's entire story has been about her putting on other faces but remaining a wolf, remaining arya. She'll do the same through the faceless men training.platypotamus said:
I'm still anticipating the re-introduction of Nymeria, who has been referenced far too often throughout the books to not be seen again. I imagine that Nymeria will meet with Arya sometime, most likely when/if Arya realizes her Warg powers and starts using Nym to traverse Westeros. If that is the case, it may be likely that Arya herself never returns to Westeros as Arya, but as a Faceless.
platypotamus
Member
elrechazao said:
Precisely!
Finally finished, read all 5 in succession. Very entertaining reading overall.
First of all, I don't see how Jon could come back as fully human. Striding alongside his uncle Benjen or like Catylin? Maybe. It would feel forced otherwise. Ghost growling(oh the wolves are ignored once again), Melisandre's warning and finally, Jon announcing he was going to Winterfell. The other shit had his underlings wringing their hands and arguing, but that clearly went against the "do not get involved" rules. Besides, how much clearer could have his death been laid out? There is no room to go back like there was with Davos or even Arya catching an axe to the back of the head. As for why it was done? There doesn't seem to be a clear motive other than descending the wall and the north into complete chaos. My guess is whatever "evil" is commanding the others and the whites really makes itself known in the next novel and without Jon it will meet little resistance. Actually, it could stay that was until Dany makes her way over to the 7 kingdoms.
I don't have much criticism of the books, but I was disappointed with Dany's story in ADWD. So much was hinted at in the Feast for Crows and early in ADWD and only Martell actually ended up reaching her. Not only that, but the two big battles never actually came to pass(Stannis for Winterfell and Dany against the slavers). It seems to me both of those events should have been in this book, not the next one. Tyrion is the only real highlight here. I know he has at least 7 books to play with, but the pacing has really stretched thin in these last 2 books and that was one of the strong points previously. Anytime a character sets out to do something the first thought that comes to mind is, "well let's he how this guy gets fucked over before he can even get close". Other than that, it's still very, very good.
First of all, I don't see how Jon could come back as fully human. Striding alongside his uncle Benjen or like Catylin? Maybe. It would feel forced otherwise. Ghost growling(oh the wolves are ignored once again), Melisandre's warning and finally, Jon announcing he was going to Winterfell. The other shit had his underlings wringing their hands and arguing, but that clearly went against the "do not get involved" rules. Besides, how much clearer could have his death been laid out? There is no room to go back like there was with Davos or even Arya catching an axe to the back of the head. As for why it was done? There doesn't seem to be a clear motive other than descending the wall and the north into complete chaos. My guess is whatever "evil" is commanding the others and the whites really makes itself known in the next novel and without Jon it will meet little resistance. Actually, it could stay that was until Dany makes her way over to the 7 kingdoms.
I don't have much criticism of the books, but I was disappointed with Dany's story in ADWD. So much was hinted at in the Feast for Crows and early in ADWD and only Martell actually ended up reaching her. Not only that, but the two big battles never actually came to pass(Stannis for Winterfell and Dany against the slavers). It seems to me both of those events should have been in this book, not the next one. Tyrion is the only real highlight here. I know he has at least 7 books to play with, but the pacing has really stretched thin in these last 2 books and that was one of the strong points previously. Anytime a character sets out to do something the first thought that comes to mind is, "well let's he how this guy gets fucked over before he can even get close". Other than that, it's still very, very good.
Seems to me that there is just as much room for "Jon wasn't really killed" as there was for Tyrion sinking to the bottom of a deep river, swallowing lungfuls of water, and blacking out, Asha getting brained with a mace, or the Hound being left alone by the side of the road dying of a severe infection.
His death wouldn't have to 'teach us' anything. I dont understand why it has to matter so much.Burli said:
But to humor you:
The Night's Watch falls apart, the Others come and the wildlings run, and all hell breaks loose in Westeros.
If Jon is dead, then he's dead and things will change. Just roll with it rather than try and understand how everything is supposed to play out in the future.
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