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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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ultron87

Member
The only stupider thing that could've happened than Jon truly dying at the end of this book would have been Dany actually getting eaten by Drogon in that fighting pit.

Even if it is "gritty and realistic" following characters for this long just to arbitrarily kill them off would be terrible terrible writing.
 

Dresden

Member
At this point if we don't see them die they're not actually dead. (Almost) inviolate rule.

Hell, even Quentyn didn't technically die at the end of his chapter. :p
 

TTG

Member
Seanspeed said:
His death wouldn't have to 'teach us' anything. I dont understand why it has to matter so much.

But to humor you:

The Night's Watch falls apart, the Others come and the wildlings run, and all hell breaks loose in Westeros.

If Jon is dead, then he's dead and things will change. Just roll with it rather than try and understand how everything is supposed to play out in the future.

That seems to be the most plausible explanation. Devastation and suffering in the North is gonna reach the level of the Riverlands, but this time due to the "Others" or whatever force they represent. As far as people questioning his death, I think it's fairly certain. It would be a real stretch for Hormund to carry him off and nurse him back to health after 4 stab wounds. The foreshadowing was there, the motives for the Night Watch as well(he announced he was leaving after all). It doesn't say "and Jon was dead. Really, really dead", but that's not the way the other deaths have been handled either. He comes back in some form, but not human. Something connected to Benjen Stark seems likely(maybe Benjen is the "cold hands" that escorted Bran and they find each other somehow).

Anyway, I was looking at that list everyone is quoting... I thought one thing that was missing(maybe too obvious, I don't know) was when Melisandre is explaining the way she conjures up her "glamors", she specifically mentions a bag of finger bones as an object to build a glamor around. And we all know that Davos is missing his. That's one of the story lines I'm looking forward to the most, Davos going after Rickon.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
apana said:
If Jon had died permanently then George would have made it clear. He is an important main character, it would be sort of stupid cliff hanger bullshit to wait 5 years from now to assure that he is dead. It serves no purpose.
Get out of this 'it has to serve a purpose' line of thought, guys. It'd be a shame if things were that predictable.
 

apana

Member
Seanspeed said:
Get out of this 'it has to serve a purpose' line of thought, guys. It'd be a shame if things were that predictable.

I'm not saying that Jon's death has to serve a purpose, simply that delaying the revelation of whether or not he died for four to five years seems pointless. It's pretty clear that Jon will return in some form.
 
TTG said:
That seems to be the most plausible explanation. Devastation and suffering in the North is gonna reach the level of the Riverlands, but this time due to the "Others" or whatever force they represent. As far as people questioning his death, I think it's fairly certain. It would be a real stretch for Hormund to carry him off and nurse him back to health after 4 stab wounds. The foreshadowing was there, the motives for the Night Watch as well(he announced he was leaving after all). It doesn't say "and Jon was dead. Really, really dead", but that's not the way the other deaths have been handled either. He comes back in some form, but not human. Something connected to Benjen Stark seems likely(maybe Benjen is the "cold hands" that escorted Bran and they find each other somehow).

Anyway, I was looking at that list everyone is quoting... I thought one thing that was missing(maybe too obvious, I don't know) was when Melisandre is explaining the way she conjures up her "glamors", she specifically mentions a bag of finger bones as an object to build a glamor around. And we all know that Davos is missing his. That's one of the story lines I'm looking forward to the most, Davos going after Rickon.
Don't forget mel's glamors on herself!
 

braves01

Banned
What are the odds Martin finishes the next book within a couple years? I just read through the series for the first time this past month, and I don't know what I'm gonna do if I have to wait 5+ years for my next ASOIAF fix.
 
Seanspeed said:
Get out of this 'it has to serve a purpose' line of thought, guys. It'd be a shame if things were that predictable.

Agreed. By that logic, no major character can die from this point. I hope Dany dies, and killing off Tyrion could be an impressive feat for Martin. I'd like him to go out heroically, but I have a feeling Martin would rather him die nameless.
 

tokkun

Member
What do you guys think about Jon Connington? One-off character for ADWD or will he be a recurring POV?

It would be nice to get another capable, pragmatic, and serious character. Especially one with neutral alignment.
 

siddx

Magnificent Eager Mighty Brilliantly Erect Registereduser
I've gotten the feeling throughout the series that at the end of the day, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Rickon and (at least I thought so at one point) Jon would be the last ones standing when everything ends. Tyrion's just too good a character to kill off, he's far and away the most entertaining.
 
siddx said:
I've gotten the feeling throughout the series that at the end of the day, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Rickon and (at least I thought so at one point) Jon would be the last ones standing when everything ends. Tyrion's just too good a character to kill off, he's far and away the most entertaining.

That is why i think he will die, actually. Some kind of sacrifice is in his future. One that will help remove the horrible stain on his name
 

KingK

Member
tokkun said:
What do you guys think about Jon Connington? One-off character for ADWD or will he be a recurring POV?

It would be nice to get another capable, pragmatic, and serious character. Especially one with neutral alignment.

I like Connington, but there's too many POV characters already. He's already at the point where he has to start killing off a lot of these characters next book (or simply stop POV's from them) if he wants it to be manageable.

I think Davos already fits the role of pragmatic neutral alignment character.
 

rando14

Member
tokkun said:
What do you guys think about Jon Connington? One-off character for ADWD or will he be a recurring POV?

It would be nice to get another capable, pragmatic, and serious character. Especially one with neutral alignment.

Good question. At the moment, Connington serves as the perspective for Aegon and his battles for the throne. So, with that in mind, I can imagine he'll stick around.
 
I hope Connington returns. It might depend on what happens with TWOW spoiler:
Arianne.

We'll most likely see Connington through her POV when she visits Storm's End; she could end up being our primary look at Aegon/Connington. Still, I really hope we get to see the events through Connington's eyes instead, as this is one of the more interesting, upcoming plotlines. Having taken Storm's End, Aegon has proven himself to be a credible threat regardless of whether he's a fraud or not; the Lannisters/Tyrells may doubt his claim, but with each victory the people of Westeros will fall in line, as will smaller houses.

Connington wants Aegon to marry Dany, but considering she might not make it to Westeros it would make sense to start looking for marriage alliances. One with Dorne makes a shit ton of sense, so I can't wait to see what Connington thinks about that.
 

JDSN

Banned
tokkun said:
What do you guys think about Jon Connington? One-off character for ADWD or will he be a recurring POV?

It would be nice to get another capable, pragmatic, and serious character. Especially one with neutral alignment.
He is already dead
 

ultron87

Member
Seanspeed said:
Get out of this 'it has to serve a purpose' line of thought, guys. It'd be a shame if things were that predictable.

If we've followed any of these characters for five books just to have them get randomly killed off George is a terrible writer.

People can die, but they need to impact the plot in some way or die for a reason.

If Jon's only purpose in the story was to give us a viewpoint at the Wall and get the Wall slightly more fortified than this whole thing is a giant pile of bullshit.
 

Dresden

Member
It's weird and not that likely to happen but a Aegon-Sansa matchup could happen. Littlefinger will get news of the dragon boy soon enough, if he hasn't already, and there's something charmingly opportunistic about that scenario.
 
I wonder if Littlefinger will be able to guess Varys is behind Aegon's ruse. Plus Littlefinger will soon have definitive confirmation that dragons exist and might be on their way to Westeros with Dany. At that point I can't really see what his plan will be. He can't offer his service to Aegon without fearing revenge from Varys, and offering Sansa might not appeal to Aegon, who wants his aunt and her dragons (which will make conquering the north rather easy).

He might be fucked
 

TTG

Member
apana said:
I'm not saying that Jon's death has to serve a purpose, simply that delaying the revelation of whether or not he died for four to five years seems pointless. It's pretty clear that Jon will return in some form.

Agreed on the last part. It's not something I thought of before, but there hasn't been a clear answer for who Jon's mother was/is and obviously that will be important at some point. Answering that with him completely out of the picture would just be... bad timing. Almost as bad as some miraculous recovery back to normal. I don't know why people consider it a cliffhanger though, Brienne with a noose around her neck was a cliffhanger, that's not the case here.

It would really suck to kill off Tyrion, he's the only character who has some perspective. The books don't follow Varys or Illyrio or even Littlefinger. Everyone else is caught up in their own shit without really seeing the big picture. Tyrion has a good grasp on everything that's going on, plus his story has been entertaining the whole way through. He's always waist deep in some shit and has the best dialogue. Try and find a boring time for Tyrion like Dany sitting around in Quarth, there are none.

Speaking of which, I hope Dany gets back to Mereene relatively quickly. Another long ass derailment with the Dothraki she meets at the end of ADWD wouldn't be fun, there's been too many already.
 

siddx

Magnificent Eager Mighty Brilliantly Erect Registereduser
PhoenixDark said:
I wonder if Littlefinger will be able to guess Varys is behind Aegon's ruse. Plus Littlefinger will soon have definitive confirmation that dragons exist and might be on their way to Westeros with Dany. At that point I can't really see what his plan will be. He can't offer his service to Aegon without fearing revenge from Varys, and offering Sansa might not appeal to Aegon, who wants his aunt and her dragons (which will make conquering the north rather easy).

He might be fucked

I got the sense Littlefinger had something big up his sleeve. I wonder if he could possibly actually be in league with Varys.

TTG said:
Agreed on the last part. It's not something I thought of before, but there hasn't been a clear answer for who Jon's mother was/is and obviously that will be important at some point. Answering that with him completely out of the picture would just be... bad timing. Almost as bad as some miraculous recovery back to normal. I don't know why people consider it a cliffhanger though, Brienne with a noose around her neck was a cliffhanger, that's not the case here.

It would really suck to kill off Tyrion, he's the only character who has some perspective. The books don't follow Varys or Illyrio or even Littlefinger. Everyone else is caught up in their own shit without really seeing the big picture. Tyrion has a good grasp on everything that's going on, plus his story has been entertaining the whole way through. He's always waist deep in some shit and has the best dialogue. Try and find a boring time for Tyrion like Dany sitting around in Quarth, there are none.

Speaking of which, I hope Dany gets back to Mereene relatively quickly. Another long ass derailment with the Dothraki she meets at the end of ADWD wouldn't be fun, there's been too many already.

Dany's story getting so dragged the fuck out has been my number one complaint. I like the character, but her sitting around with her thumb up her ass has been really irritating. She should have been melting armies into piles of goo with dragons long ago.
 

apana

Member
I think all the Starks with the exception of Rickon and maybe Sansa are gonna be dead by the end. Jon will likely be permanently dead by the end of the sixth book or the middle of the last one. Bran will probably have one of the last chapters if not the last POV and will die in it after he fulfills his role, whatever that is. Arya is gonna be assassinated for sure.
 
I'm guessing Jon will rise in salt and smoke as the true Azor Azai in the next book. Melisandre saw him in her flames when she was asking for her savior. I agree that the series could do well with killing off a few more characters.
 

jon bones

hot hot hanuman-on-man action
apana said:
I think all the Starks with the exception of Rickon and maybe Sansa are gonna be dead by the end. Jon will likely be permanently dead by the end of the sixth book or the middle of the last one. Bran will probably have one of the last chapters if not the last POV and will die in it after he fulfills his role, whatever that is. Arya is gonna be assassinated for sure.
Arya will not die.
 

diunxx

Member
PhoenixDark said:
I wonder if Littlefinger will be able to guess Varys is behind Aegon's ruse. Plus Littlefinger will soon have definitive confirmation that dragons exist and might be on their way to Westeros with Dany. At that point I can't really see what his plan will be. He can't offer his service to Aegon without fearing revenge from Varys, and offering Sansa might not appeal to Aegon, who wants his aunt and her dragons (which will make conquering the north rather easy).

He might be fucked

Remember that Aegon is a teenage boy and Sansa is suppose to be some god tier hottie...
 
It was strongly foreshadowed that Bran would rebuild Winterfell in ACOK. He is the only Stark I am almost certain will make it through the series.
 
LegendofJoe said:
It was strongly foreshadowed that Bran would rebuild Winterfell in ACOK. He is the only Stark I am almost certain will make it through the series.
Bran will warg into a herd of trees and do a reverse-ents trashing isenguard from LOTR.
 
I still think that Bran will be the key to all of this - he will be the most powerful greenseer and will have the power to 'speak' to people throughout history.

He will start doing some crazy shit, like telling people through the tree's in times during history and it will change things so radically that he will go back as himself again and not say them just so that things don't become so fucked up.

But then, there will be one thing he goes to the tree and says - "don't be the kings hand" to Ned before he goes down to the Red Keep with King Robert, and it will avoid this whole shambles, and everything else will fall in line, the wars of the world will stop and everyone will live happily ever after.



Okay - well that's just a bunch of BS and will never happen, but hey - I just don't see the point of Bran. He's there, he's a greenseer now, but there is NO POINT TO HIM, he can't do shit. He can only watch through the trees, what can he do now? Is he actually able to physically do anything other than observe?

Arya won't die, and people who are saying she's "betraying her training to the faceless men" I don't think she is, everyone who gets their training has their own agenda, however their training teaches them to put aside their own cares and their own beliefs and learn to lie without showing it - lie without telling the lie on their face, so she is being taught how to lie and tell them that she is "no one" any more, thus when they ask her if she is a leal servant of the many faced god she will say "yes" and she will be lying, but she will be trained in the art of lying and even though she doesn't mean it, she will have lied correctly.

THAT is the power of the many faced god, and although everyone who serves him puts aside who they really are with a lie, they still remain who they are on the inside... that's how I see it anyway, and that's the truth of really becoming a servant of the many faced god. Knowing that you are who you are, and believing that fully so that you can lie about it deliberately.

I'm still really keen to find out about Jon. Jon has always been said to look exactly like Ned, so those theories that he's Roberts bastard with a Targ is pretty abstract and while the evidence and clues are solid, it just sounds crazy... could it be Ned and a Targ? I sorta doubt it...

Overall, I'm really just keen to see what happens next, with Jon gone, there is going to be complete ANARCHY on the wall, there are more wildlings on this side of the wall than rangers now, and the others are coming, but I'm glad that they weren't going to go to seal bay and try and save all those other people...

What I don't understand is why Jon doesn't trust the wall - the Others can't pass by the wall, it keeps them out magically - he doesn't need to block the tunnels because they can't pass through so why the worry about them? Perhaps the Wights are the worry... and I suppose the thousands of dead wildlings that will become wights are the real worry upon the coming of winter (which is upon us now right?).

I really don't know what's going to happen though... none of us do, we can all speculate.

I'm really shocked that people didn't pick up on the fact that Arya poisoned a coin and put it in the dude's wallet so that when the other guy bit it he died of a heart attack, like that was so clear I just can't believe people didn't realise it.

I also can't wait to see if Davos finds Rickon. I wonder if we'll end up seeing any Rickon perspective chapters.

I was also surprised that George didn't give us any perspective of Sansa, just to catch us up as to what is happening in the Vale, just one itty bitty chapter to see what Littlefinger is up to, but alas we're all left to wondering.

I think we all know Stannis is still alive, and Ramsay only captured Mance. I don't think Mance would have given up the info though, the spearwives would have - he's bound to Melisandre, but she would have known everything because of the ruby on his wrist, so I'm surprised she didn't warn Jon. Overall I feel that Mel is just a complete failure in every way, everything she says and does is WRONG, she might be the most powerful at seeing the flames, but everything she see's and concludes from her visions is WRONG. Perhaps the fact that all she can see in her flames is Jon is something important, perhaps he was Azor Ahai and she let him die, and now the world is doomed... that'd be cool - no happy ending.

Arya the stealth assassin to the rescue, killing every Other and Wight single handedly and incest marrying Rickon. If Rickon is raised on the island of cannibals, he's gonna be one hard mother fucker.

Who is Bael?
 
ColonialRaptor said:
I just don't see the point of Bran. He's there, he's a greenseer now, but there is NO POINT TO HIM, he can't do shit.
Bran will warg into one of the dragons and tear shit up. YOU. WILL. FLY.
 
apana said:
I think all the Starks with the exception of Rickon and maybe Sansa are gonna be dead by the end. Jon will likely be permanently dead by the end of the sixth book or the middle of the last one. Bran will probably have one of the last chapters if not the last POV and will die in it after he fulfills his role, whatever that is. Arya is gonna be assassinated for sure.

Rickon is already dead I bet. Davos will get there and be introduced to Rickon, ie Shaggydog.
 
I was thinking today of what seems like a small hole in the story. Ramsay knows bran and rickon are alive, so I'm kind of surprised he never discussed any contingency with his father or anyone else about what they should do to hunt down bran and rickon, what to do if they show up, and show zero worry about any of these things happening. For all ramsay knows, Manderly has bran hiding in whiteharbor somewhere, or the umbers have rickon, etc.

I'm not saying they need to be agonizing about it, but even a small mention would have seemed very natural to me, and the lack of any concern for the possibility that bran or rickon might be out there is a bit odd to me.
 

TTG

Member
elrechazao said:
I'm not saying they need to be agonizing about it, but even a small mention would have seemed very natural to me, and the lack of any concern for the possibility that bran or rickon might be out there is a bit odd to me.

I thought Ramsay did mention it to daddy? Anyway, Rickon/Davos is gonna make for an interesting story for the next book. If any more Starks die, I'm guessing it would be him. Already going looney, his direwolf biting people and now he's on the cannibal island. More likely though, the Starks are done suffering. Someone(Bran?) is gonna have to put "lady stoneheart" out of her misery, but other than that, everyone is safe and tucked well out of the way of any danger for the moment.
 

apana

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
Bran is going to live forever.

That's assuming everything with Bloodraven goes fine and Bran wants to be a tree for the rest of his life. Bran's story has been following a very typical fantasy path. He is a young hero with big problems and some superpowers who meets a wise old man who teaches him how to use these powers. We know that George likes to give a twist to these stories and tries to defy what we expect to happen to the characters: Jaime (swordsman) loses his arm, Sansa (dreamer) loses her innocence and is with Littlefinger, Ned and Robb (heroes and central characters) lose their lives. What we do know is that the ending will be bittersweet, I can see it being bittersweet if the main characters die but their purpose is fulfilled.
 
apana said:
That's assuming everything with Bloodraven goes fine and Bran wants to be a tree for the rest of his life. Bran's story has been following a very typical fantasy path. He is a young hero with big problems and some superpowers who meets a wise old man who teaches him how to use these powers. We know that George likes to give a twist to these stories and tries to defy what we expect to happen to the characters: Jaime (swordsman) loses his arm, Sansa (dreamer) loses her innocence and is with Littlefinger, Ned and Robb (heroes and central characters) lose their lives. What we do know is that the ending will be bittersweet, I can see it being bittersweet if the main characters die but their purpose is fulfilled.

That was mostly an off-the-cuff comment, but I do think he's intended for long life. But I suspect he's going to stop being "Bran" for all intents and purposes, perhaps not even being a help to his family/allies.
 

brentech

Member
elrechazao said:
Bran will warg into one of the dragons and tear shit up. YOU. WILL. FLY.
This was always my assumption as well.
Dany will likely get at least one of her dragons over to westeros, but I don't see any other likely riders at this point.
It just made sense that bran would eventually take control as one.
 
Here's my question. Is there any way GRRM is gonna wrap this up in just two books? Dany didn't move an inch toward Westeros. All the farting around in Meereen was frustrating. I was seriously hoping she was gonna take the ships offered to her. And now Tyrion is there as well. With Aegon declaring in Westeros, Tyrion/Dany need to start moving.

I just hope we're not in for another Wheel of Time. I lost interest around book 7 or 8 because things stopped happening.

I loved ADWD, much better than Feast, but there are a lot of plot lines going on if this is meant to be just seven books.
 

tokkun

Member
AngmarsKing701 said:
Here's my question. Is there any way GRRM is gonna wrap this up in just two books? Dany didn't move an inch toward Westeros. All the farting around in Meereen was frustrating. I was seriously hoping she was gonna take the ships offered to her. And now Tyrion is there as well. With Aegon declaring in Westeros, Tyrion/Dany need to start moving.

I just hope we're not in for another Wheel of Time. I lost interest around book 7 or 8 because things stopped happening.

I loved ADWD, much better than Feast, but there are a lot of plot lines going on if this is meant to be just seven books.

You know, I honestly feel like this series would be better if he didn't commit to an overarching storyline with the Others. Like if he just kept writing books in the world as long as he felt like it. I think he would find it easier to write and we wouldn't need to worry about the story being "unfinished" when he drops dead.
 

Snake

Member
AngmarsKing701 said:
Here's my question. Is there any way GRRM is gonna wrap this up in just two books?

My personal belief, one that is entirely unconvincing to most people probably, is that he will come out with the next two books significantly faster than AFfC/ADWD (maybe 3-4 years apiece instead of 5-6), motivated in order to complete things before HBO catches up. After which he will unveil the 8th and final book of the series: A Time For Wolves. This was the original title of the 7th book, and it is too good to simply disappear.

Or at least I want to believe!
 

braves01

Banned
tokkun said:
You know, I honestly feel like this series would be better if he didn't commit to an overarching storyline with the Others. Like if he just kept writing books in the world as long as he felt like it. I think he would find it easier to write and we wouldn't need to worry about the story being "unfinished" when he drops dead.

Although people have been frustrated with Dany dilly-dallying in Meeren, I'm most concerned about the Others plot, too. We know very little about them, which certainly adds some suspense to the plot, but makes it seem really unlikely that GRRM will be able to satisfactorily resolve all the ongoing plot threads in just two more books.
 

KingK

Member
AngmarsKing701 said:
Here's my question. Is there any way GRRM is gonna wrap this up in just two books?

I still think it's possible, if he kills off a lot of characters and plot points in rapid succession. Sort of like how Renly died, Stannis was defeated, Robb died, Balon Greyjoy died, and the Lannisters won the War of Five Kings all in 2 books. And the first half of ACoK was even pretty slow paced. If he cranks out two books with the pace and plot progression of Storm, then I think it's possible for it to end in two books.
 

apana

Member
I think he intends to end in seven books, everyone is now mostly setup for their final act. There are a few loose ends, primarily the Dany situation. I dont think Dany will do much in Westeros, her story might even end in Asshai somehwere, decent odds she may die in the next book. The whole story with the Others and the Wall has a good amount of space to resolve itself since both Jon and Bran POV will be dedicated to that. Also I just think that few authors get the oppurtunity to have their fantasy story get major mainstream recognition along with praise from the critics. He will want to end in seven instead of dragging it out partly because of legacy.
 
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