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[Spukc]

I tried a fully updated one.
Holy shit..

It's like being bull in a china shop

 

[Topher]

Precisely.
I can use any device i want on my own console i paid for and that i own, and manufacturers can kiss my ass.
If that's a problem with your game, solve it inside your own game.

Tend to agree. I don't see how Activision can claim damages here. Cheating in a video game isn't illegal. Folks seem to be talking about this as if it were on the same level of piracy. I don't get it.

 

[DR3AM]

Ban all the cheaters and brick their systems
Good stuff Activision

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Tend to agree. I don't see how Activision can claim damages here. Cheating in a video game isn't illegal. Folks seem to be talking about this as if it were on the same level of piracy. I don't get it.

The stance they should have taken all along was just banning accounts if they deemed it cheating

But that would take work with their anti cheat which they do not want to put in

 

[kevboard]

hell yeah! fuck them

 

[Jetpac]

They plug in between your controller and console and lets you run scripts

You can greatly increase things like aim assist and greatly reduce recoil

At one point they had paid scripts that were straight up cheating but I don't know how those work now

Things like giving single shot higher powered rifles in COD full auto with next to zero recoil

Even watched a guy landing in PUBG that could see ground loot while floating down

Cronus doesn't have paid scripts only idiots buy those.

Cronus doesn't allow you to see loot on the ground in PUBG

It's most anti recoil and sticky aim.

 

[MayauMiao]

I hope either of them lose as I hate cheaters, both of them.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Cronus doesn't have paid scripts only idiots buy those.

Cronus doesn't allow you to see loot on the ground in PUBG

It's most anti recoil and sticky aim.

They used to have paid scripts if they don't anymore, I think (and could be wrong) you can pay monthly or yearly and get the latest

And I 100% saw someone using one of those Collective Minds devices on his PS4 and could see ground loot in PUBG before he ever landed

Maybe he also had some sort of jailbroken PS4 and running something else but I saw it in action and he claimed it was just that plug in device on his controller though it may have been the strike pack from the same company, its been too long

 

[splattered]

Fuck yeah i actually do hope they win this and set a huge example with it so others don't try and fill the void. I legit wish they could send full on pc cheat makers to jail if they refuse to shut down operations or move to another country etc. They do that shit for console chip modding companies already.

 

[splattered]

Tend to agree. I don't see how Activision can claim damages here. Cheating in a video game isn't illegal. Folks seem to be talking about this as if it were on the same level of piracy. I don't get it.

Its like a billion dollar franchise being completely ruined by third party software interference... they definitely have damages to claim here. They are losing big money now.

Like Heisenberg said Activision could see the devices but didn't do anything about it. It's possible they didn't do anything about it at first because people used it to make content and gain attention of younger or gullible audience that didn't realize all these huge kill count matches weren't legit. But now the hacking is majorly negatively affecting their playerbase and they are losing customers over it. Time to finally do something about it.

 

[KenaiPhoenix]

Impossible, I was told that hackers and cheaters only exists on PC.

On all seriousness, even if it is not going to stop cheating, it is a good thing. Yes, people will just scramble and start a new company, but not supporting this is like oppossing to cheater bans because they will just create a new account.

Yes it is a sisyphuys task, but is something that companies have to do (sadly) to at least fight hackers/cheaters

 

[ReasonBeing]

"Helps you control recoil a little bit"

Damn, it's not even the same game anymore with these things. At least in comparison to someone playing without such a device.

Precisely.
I can use any device i want on my own console i paid for and that i own, and manufacturers can kiss my ass.
If that's a problem with your game, solve it inside your own game.

Yes, it's your device that you own, but you don't own the software you are using it with. You "own" a license to execute the software within the confines of the ToS.

 

[Topher]

Its like a billion dollar franchise being completely ruined by third party software interference... they definitely have damages to claim here. They are losing big money now.

Like Heisenberg said Activision could see the devices but didn't do anything about it. It's possible they didn't do anything about it at first because people used it to make content and gain attention of younger or gullible audience that didn't realize all these huge kill count matches weren't legit. But now the hacking is majorly negatively affecting their playerbase and they are losing customers over it. Time to finally do something about it.

Why don't they just prevent the device from working within their software?

The stance they should have taken all along was just banning accounts if they deemed it cheating

But that would take work with their anti cheat which they do not want to put in

Then Activision is just as responsible for any damages they have incurred.

 

[Haint]

They need to be suing Sony and themselves (i.e. MS) for not blocking this shit at the console/OS level. The console manufacturers obviously have the means to detect and disable these kind of devices and more than enough resources to keep track of whatever kind of spoofing and hardware revisions a handful of ultra small cap companies try to pull to get around it.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Damn, it's not even the same game anymore with these things. At least in comparison to someone playing without such a device.

Totally an unfair advantage

 

[Sophist]

why don't they use a system of public/private keys to encrypt the input/ouput between the console and official devices to avoid a middle man?

 

[Jetpac]

They used to have paid scripts if they don't anymore, I think (and could be wrong) you can pay monthly or yearly and get the latest

And I 100% saw someone using one of those Collective Minds devices on his PS4 and could see ground loot in PUBG before he ever landed

Maybe he also had some sort of jailbroken PS4 and running something else but I saw it in action and he claimed it was just that plug in device on his controller though it may have been the strike pack from the same company, its been too long

They never had paid scripts. They advocate for users to NOT pay for scripts

Def a jail broken PS4

 

[cireza]

No video game is that fucking serious.

This.

Last football match I went too, one team suddenly picked shotguns from the side of field. People were outraged, but I was like : "Come on it's only sport, it's not that fucking serious."

 

[PlayStaytion]

COD will still look COD, I don't care.

 

[StueyDuck]

Why don't they just prevent the device from working within their software?

They'll just work around it, it'll be a constant game of cat and mouse (and resource waste on Activision's side).

The only solution in that scenario would be to outright ban all third-party support outside of "partnered" manufacturers by the Console makers. (It doesn't fix the PC situation either, Zens are also used on PC, 0 recoil on a mouse is basically a laser pointer.)

but can you imagine the above scenario, people will lose their shit.

There isn't really an easy win situation here.

So either Chronus has to go, or significant development time and resources would have to be moved away from game development just to combat script kiddies who don't know how to play a game properly.

But this court case is gonna be null and void, it's gonna be extremely impossible for activision to prove their bottom line is being hurt when they are making hand over fist more money from Seth Rogan shoop shoop dances now than they ever use to back in the "good old days".

 

[Black_Stride]

why don't they use a system of public/private keys to encrypt the input/ouput between the console and official devices to avoid a middle man?

Mouse, Keyboards and Webcams would be kicked out.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

They never had paid scripts. They advocate for users to NOT pay for scripts

Def a jail broken PS4

So I wanted to find out what he was running and he said it was the Strike Pack and not the Zen but its made by the same people Collective Minds

Also said when he was updating it it took him straight to a site called Mod Pass and he was indeed paying a monthly sub

Said Mod Pass is still an active site for Strike Packs but Collective Minds and that site do not seem to be tied to each other now

 

[Mattyp]

Ban the cunts, the streamers as well, famous or not.

Anytime Acti gets them out for launch parties the footage is hilarious and they would all get their shit kicked in against any moderately skilled Sunday dad player.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Fuck Activision. Hope the jury see through their nonsense.

I have never played a Call of Duty game, but trying to fuck over someone for life for supposed cheating? Disgusting. No video game is that fucking serious.

They're fucking over the cheating source not the cheaters. Also, when you can bet and gamble on something there tends to be less leniency for cheaters. What you're saying is like also saying oh we should just let a football player cheat for a soccer player or a baseball player. Cheating is cheating..

 

[wolffy66]

They need to be suing Sony and themselves (i.e. MS) for not blocking this shit at the console/OS level. The console manufacturers obviously have the means to detect and disable these kind of devices and more than enough resources to keep track of whatever kind of spoofing and hardware revisions a handful of ultra small cap companies try to pull to get around it.

Don't the devices have some non cheating use technically?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Don't the devices have some non cheating use technically?

I know whenever Ybarra and I talked about those devices years ago one of the reasons they never wanted to take a stance on them was a lot of people do use them to actually help them in offline play

I don't remember the exact scenario but he said something like they would never want to ban someone that did not have good motor control skills and they were using those things to play games like NBA 2K or now even MLB The Show to just help them actually have fun

Now I would venture to guess way more people are using them to get assistance in MP games and Ybarra said a few times Xbox could see them in use for each game

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I will also add from someone who wants to remain nameless on this comment (which everyone would know who it is) Acti has had these discussions before internally and they went no where because they did not care if people used these things in campaigns and deep down they don't think they make much of a difference in MP

This lawsuit, according to him, sounds like a lot of posturing that they know they wont win but they can act like they tried to do something

But that is just his feeling

 

[Mephisto40]

I'm guessing banning the people who use these devices is starting to cost Activision money

 

[Alebrije]

PvP should be called Pv Wizard o the name of they device, they reason a Lot of people left multiayer are those devices....but developers don't care because tons of people still buys their games.

 

[StereoVsn]

I know whenever Ybarra and I talked about those devices years ago one of the reasons they never wanted to take a stance on them was a lot of people do use them to actually help them in offline play

I don't remember the exact scenario but he said something like they would never want to ban someone that did not have good motor control skills and they were using those things to play games like NBA 2K or now even MLB The Show to just help them actually have fun

Now I would venture to guess way more people are using them to get assistance in MP games and Ybarra said a few times Xbox could see them in use for each game

So if they see people using devices to cheat in game they should ban them in game. Suing a hardware company for providing a legal device that "may" negatively affect Activision is BS. I really hope AKB and MS lose and at least get taken for lawyer fees.

Personally, I use similar devices all the time because I am not buying Wheels, Arcade sticks, Flight Sticks and Pedals for separate consoles since MS and Sony can't agree on a common protocol.

I also use same hardware to use KBM in console shooters as I am simply terrible with controllers in FPS especially.

And there are folks like you mention, with motor skills issues who need to use variety of devices to enjoy gaming.

 

[StereoVsn]

Don't the devices have some non cheating use technically?

Yes, absolutely. Let's you use KBM in games that dont support it. Or lets you use say PS5 controllers on XSX and vice-versa or lets you use PS4/5 arcade stick or wheels on XSX and so on. There are a variety of devices that support these options.

And of course there are items that help people with motor skill issues, etc. There is a ton of legitimate use for the hardware.

 

[Aaron Olive]

When PlayStation secured the Call of Duty marketing rights, the esport switched over to the PS4 platform, and they had to use Cronuses at these LAN events as it was the only viable way to disable and bypass Bluetooth in the DS4 controllers at the time. They learned of the Bluetooth problem at a tournament where the players experienced significant input lag caused by interference. The usage of Cronuses ended with the release of MW2019 when the esport moved to PC (controller only, still), where the players then started using programs to "overclock" their DS4 controllers by raising the polling rate.

Just a bit of history to show that Activision (who had purchased MLG, therefore becoming the league owner), essentially, funded the Cronus business to maintain competitive integrity at their live tournaments for 4 years.

Which is weird because the PS4 has a wired only protocol for connected controllers in settings. Smells fishy

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

So if they see people using devices to cheat in game they should ban them in game. Suing a hardware company for providing a legal device that "may" negatively affect Activision is BS. I really hope AKB and MS lose and at least get taken for lawyer fees.

Personally, I use similar devices all the time because I am not buying Wheels, Arcade sticks, Flight Sticks and Pedals for separate consoles since MS and Sony can't agree on a common protocol.

I also use same hardware to use KBM in console shooters as I am simply terrible with controllers in FPS especially.

And there are folks like you mention, with motor skills issues who need to use variety of devices to enjoy gaming.

Yeah its for sure just posturing

They can see people using them internally yet go after the maker of the device, basically all one needs to know

I used to be hardcore against them but anymore I don't blame anyone for using them in casual MP games

I mean deep down who cares if someone has a little better aim assist in a match that has no bearing on anything?

I get not allowing these things in money earning competition but casual games so what

People have advantages already

I play on a Pro with a pro controller and a super fast monitor with amazing internet with crazy low latency

Have a buddy still playing on his regular PS4 on a TV with fairly crap internet

I am already ahead of him

 

[splattered]

Why don't they just prevent the device from working within their software?



Then Activision is just as responsible for any damages they have incurred.

Because there are legitimate uses for the device... they are trying to balance allowing the devices for legitimate accessibility uses versus being used to cheat. When it comes down to it though they will probably have to just block them yeah, esp if they can't win something like this in court.

 

[Hudo]

90% of the player base gone.

 

[splattered]

They DO ban hardware and users for cheating but the PC cheat software allows for hardware spoofing. Hackers are buying hacked accounts for pennies on the dollar with mid stats that look like they are legitimate accounts and not just something freshly created to cheat. Hackers have all sorts of ways around being banned both user and hardware bans.

As far as console cheaters using cronus goes... i would personally prefer they sue and win to get the scripting crap blocked from these cronus devices. If they don't play ball or for some reason can't do it then sure just completely block people's ability to use them at all. If after that happens and users go to different devices to try and continue cheating then ban them after a few warnings. Unfortunate but something major really needs to be done here.

 

[Topher]

I play on a Pro with a pro controller and a super fast monitor with amazing internet with crazy low latency

 

[Miles708]

If, as some are saying in the thread, they can indeed detect users using such devices, just place them in a dedicated playlist.
It isn't hard.

Of course that would also require Activision to be acting in good faith.

 

[realcool]

Which is weird because the PS4 has a wired only protocol for connected controllers in settings. Smells fishy

That doesn't work for v1 controllers, and the league used SCUFs (while a few used Battle Beavers, but they were not a sponsor), so unless those custom controllers were v2, they wouldn't be able to use the official wired connectivity mode.

I don't know if the league tested the latency difference between the Cronus and the official wired connectivity mode when it was introduced or any time afterward, but I know for a fact that they never used the official wired connectivity mode in any LAN tournaments. And because of that, the pros would purposefully scrim from home using the Cronus to simulate the latency they would experience on LAN, instead of practicing with a higher polling rate and a lower input latency by using wireless mode.

What smells fishy?

 

[wvnative]

I know whenever Ybarra and I talked about those devices years ago one of the reasons they never wanted to take a stance on them was a lot of people do use them to actually help them in offline play

I don't remember the exact scenario but he said something like they would never want to ban someone that did not have good motor control skills and they were using those things to play games like NBA 2K or now even MLB The Show to just help them actually have fun

Now I would venture to guess way more people are using them to get assistance in MP games and Ybarra said a few times Xbox could see them in use for each game

That's what makes it such a shitty situation. It's a godsend for disabled gamers like myself. But the dumbasses who make the device market it as a cheat device.

I wish someone would make a very similar device, just without the gamepacks.

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

Xbox can for sure see when people use them as its something Ybarra and I talked about often while he was still at Xbox

His reply whenever I would ask why not ban those people was they decided at Xbox to let each game studio decide what to do with those people using those devices

It sure doesn't seem like Xbox provided much in the way of detection to their devs... It's only relatively recently that anyone is detecting m+k. I think PUBG just does the bare minimum and detects the pretty obvious WASD inputs on the left stick. R6 Siege seems to be doing a lot more with their mousetrap, but it's still just a heuristics approach, as evidenced by early versions trapping Elite controller users using sensitivity curve presets. And also, if you're on the latest XIM and use appropriately aggressive "Simulate Analog Behavior" settings, you apparently won't get mouse trapped.

Absolutely pathetic display of incompetence from management and leadership, to avoid negative PR, and I'm not only talking about Ybarra here.

It's your fucking platform. Your consumers are being affected from exploiters and it's affecting the integrity of the product on offer. Grow a spine and take a fucking stance and block them all.

All console manufacturers are equally complicit in this, just waiting for someone else to make the first move and use that as an excuse to follow them (like the recent $80 markup from MS for their 1ST party releases, right after Nintendo did it), all to avoid bad PR, and the devs themselves are also equal pussies to not block these. The end consumer is the one being affected in this shitshow.

It doesn't really seem like anyone has solved 'anti-cheat' at least for FPS. But for consoles specifically... given the original sin of charging for "Xbox Live Gold" i.e. the premium online gaming experience... it seems pretty clear that they didn't for instance take 20% of their Gold revenues to overfund a team tasked with defeating online cheats... ya know.. as part of the premium service that lord GabeN somehow provides a superior version at zero extra cost to the consumer on PC.

Cronus doesn't allow you to see loot on the ground in PUBG

If I recall, the PUBG thing was kind of wild, you'd set up your Xbox wired through your PC or something and have an ethernet sniffer that would grab the data for players and loot and display it on your PC screen.

why don't they use a system of public/private keys to encrypt the input/ouput between the console and official devices to avoid a middle man?

Let's say you made your encrypted protocol and prevented the middle-man... well... problem is the user still has physical access to the controller. You'd just solder yourself in on the other side of the encryption and inject controller inputs there. Or just dump the keys. It'd be an extra hoop to hop through.

I'm guessing banning the people who use these devices is starting to cost Activision money

That idea never made a lot of sense to me. Cheaters certainly push some people out of the game. Ironically, my XIM journey started with MW2 PC Cheaters. For all the meme-worthiness of the BOYCOTT MW2 Steam group... the lack of dedicated servers and lack of timely cheat enforcement completely destroyed any long-term viability the PC multiplayer had. With earlier CODs I was happy to play PC solo, then occasionally hop on the console versions with my RL friends, despite myself being shitty on controller, they were pure casuals so it was still fun.

But I wanted to sweat a bit, and I wanted to play on mouse and keyboard, which led me directly to XIM for MW2 and beyond. Never had an issue. People would occasionally freak out in Xbox messages, some would call me out for using XIM, I'd never deny it. Never got banned. Had a lot of fun. Then cross-play became a thing. I could play with my Xbox friends without playing on Xbox, so I went back to PC. Then after a couple of years, not long after spending like $40 out of good faith on the Rambo/John McClain skins in BOCW/WZ... my BOCW account got permabanned. Never got a satisfactory reason. I wasn't cheating in any way. Like, if they had wanted to make XIM explicitly bannable on console during my run there that would have been fair enough.

I was mainly into Warzone and my account there wasn't banned but at that point I completely dropped COD and never spent another dollar. (did try the BO6 beta for a couple of nights).

Bit of a tangent there, but it's not clear how many players are lost due to frustration over cheaters both real and imagined or how many cheaters would still play the game if it were their only choice. I can't imagine the incentive for keeping cheaters would be big, even if it existed.

Also, if Xbox solved the issue at the platform level while Sony didn't... they could kill crossplay and hoover up the console multiplayer market. It'd be a feedback loop as more legit players switched to Xbox and leaving a higher proportion of cheaters on PlayStation.

That's what makes it such a shitty situation. It's a godsend for disabled gamers like myself. But the dumbasses who make the device market it as a cheat device.

I wish someone would make a very similar device, just without the gamepacks.

XIM used to always advertise as mouse+key (and I suppose using PC flight sticks/wheels and the like, though the support was never amazing) and accessibility only. Some people eventually figured out a sneaky way to do some rudimentary anti-recoil with some of the settings, but that sort of thing was frowned upon. Eventually it seems like they lost enough market share to Cronus as the XIM Matrix has "Smart Actions" (aka macros) and can be paired with XIM Nexus (a gamepad with gyro) for all sorts of shenanigans.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

It sure doesn't seem like Xbox provided much in the way of detection to their devs... It's only relatively recently that anyone is detecting m+k. I think PUBG just does the bare minimum and detects the pretty obvious WASD inputs on the left stick. R6 Siege seems to be doing a lot more with their mousetrap, but it's still just a heuristics approach, as evidenced by early versions trapping Elite controller users using sensitivity curve presets. And also, if you're on the latest XIM and use appropriately aggressive "Simulate Analog Behavior" settings, you apparently won't get mouse trapped.

Yeah I sure don't know how much if any Xbox helped said devs in "seeing" these devices

I asked Ybarra more than once if devs like COD studios could see these devices and he always replied "absolutely"

Just not sure anymore its full on cheating, maybe bending the rules some but I don't feel increasing aim assist is actually cheating

I would actually hate to see it get removed from players like wvnative

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

Yeah I sure don't know how much if any Xbox helped said devs in "seeing" these devices

I asked Ybarra more than once if devs like COD studios could see these devices and he always replied "absolutely"

Just not sure anymore its full on cheating, maybe bending the rules some but I don't feel increasing aim assist is actually cheating

I would actually hate to see it get removed from players like wvnative

I always drew the line between input translation (where you're essentially playing the game normally) and things like rapid-fire and recoil control (where you are automating game mechanics away).

I'm not even sure what the aim assist manipulation is nowadays... At the very least it used to be that A) strafing would always give you some stickiness, so you'd always want to be moving, and B) you'd want to wiggle your aim left/right rapidly in kind of a zig zag (as you'd be pulling down to counter recoil) and that would really lock on. The same principles applied to controller input. I'm assuming Cronus and the like automate that sort of input and speed up how fast it 'wiggles'. Basically inputs that pull you off target are dampened by the aim assist whereas inputs that are putting you more on target are less dampened (there's still reticle friction), so if you average out the wiggle it ends up pulling you onto the target. So I'd put it more in the rapid-fire/recoil macro world and consider it a cheat. And if you're simply manipulating the aim assist mechanics with your own inputs I would not consider it cheating.

But a controller cheat really is a whole different world than aimbot/wallhack.

 

[Aaron Olive]

That doesn't work for v1 controllers, and the league used SCUFs (while a few used Battle Beavers, but they were not a sponsor), so unless those custom controllers were v2, they wouldn't be able to use the official wired connectivity mode.

I don't know if the league tested the latency difference between the Cronus and the official wired connectivity mode when it was introduced or any time afterward, but I know for a fact that they never used the official wired connectivity mode in any LAN tournaments. And because of that, the pros would purposefully scrim from home using the Cronus to simulate the latency they would experience on LAN, instead of practicing with a higher polling rate and a lower input latency by using wireless mode.

What smells fishy?

Well you,ve explained why they didn't go that route so nothing fishy here.

 

[Sophist]

Let's say you made your encrypted protocol and prevented the middle-man... well... problem is the user still has physical access to the controller. You'd just solder yourself in on the other side of the encryption and inject controller inputs there. Or just dump the keys. It'd be an extra hoop to hop through.

the unique controller key would be inside the controller cpu.

Mouse, Keyboards and Webcams would be kicked out.

you could still allow those but a game could allow input only from a crypted, verified device.

 

[Rocky_Balboa]

I don't think this is the way. Activision should focus on detecting the scripts. These devices have some legitimate use.

I have an old Cronus and a bit newer Titan One which is basically the same device. I basically use them as adapters for arcade controllers and Xbox controller for Nintendo Switch. The script function is useful too, but I haven't really used it much. I think I reconfigured some buttons for a game that didn't allow a certain setup.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

So picked one up at GameStop and used a free trial of Gamepass and made a new throwaway account and fired up the ole Xbox for the first time in quite awhile

I have to admit its not that big of a help to someone that can remotely control recoil to begin with and yeah aim assist seems a little stronger

Played some NBA 2k and it will make you shoot green every shot and I could see that being a major problem if used online

Overall its a big nothinburger imo