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[DForce]

I thought I heard that it was the Christians who hated the gays in this story?

It's from an old 4chan rumor. Those are turning out to be fake.

 

[Clear]

That christians shit was proven wrong weeks ago to anyone actually paying attention. The new leaks just covered it's grave with dirt.

Well if you watch the PGW trailer that first showed the Abby character, you'll get that she was originally with the Seraphites (Lev explicitly warns that she is "one of them" before cutting her down) but fell foul of them for apostasy or such and was marked for execution by hanging/disembowelment.

The Seraphites seem to be all dressed similarly which marks them out as not being the group Abby is with at the point of Joel's ambush.

 

[Kamina]

I thought I heard that it was the Christians who hated the gays in this story?

That can were the so called “tales from the ass”.

 

[Jon Neu]

If they were true, then they wouldn't spend so much time developing their story before he died.

Dignity is defined as being worth of respect or honor, this is something Ellie does throughout her journey.

They developed the story 10 years ago, now they are going full SJW.

And dignity isn't being the protagonist of a game and then come back in the sequel just to be utterly humiliated and murdered, so your murderer can literally replace you in the game.

That's the poster child definition of being thrown away with absolutely no dignity.

I also think *some things* Anita says are true.

Please, stop shocking me so much.

Do you think she's a big influence or i'm driven by the SJW movement

You haven't claimed her to be a big influence on your works. Sometimes that clarifies the matter a lot.

But yes, you are undoubtedly a force in favour of SJW ideology and tropes, seeing how much damage control you are capable to do in their favour every time someone dares to point out a game is pushing some SJW tropes.

If there wasn't for the fact that Cuckmann already recognised that Anita influences his works, you would still be here playing the old disingenuous “you don't have any proof any of this is politically motivated” while trying to discredit everyone who sees it.

You are not the first to do that type of intellectually dishonest damage control.

 

[Jon Neu]

Do you understand how emotionally fragile and triggered you sound?

Oh, here comes the ad hominem attacks.

How cute.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

"NO MY HECKING FAVORITE DUDE JOELERINO ISN'T BEING GIVEN DIGNITERINO!! YOU CAN'T HECKIN' KILL MY JOELERINO AND MAKE ME PLAY AS HIS KILLERINO!"

 

[Jon Neu]

The argumentation of the SJW defense force it's becoming better by the minute

I haven't even played one The Last Of Us game and yet they are giving me this so much fun.

Thank you, Neil Cuckmann. I love you.

 

[cormack12]

One thing that doesn't make sense - when Abby twatting Joel, then Ellie bursts in. Why doesn't Abby kill Ellie then instead of the boss fight we see later? If Abby lets her go then Ellie must do something afterwards to cause the beatdown.

If Abby already wanted Ellie & Joel dead she had the chance there to kill both of them.

 

[Jon Neu]

One thing that doesn't make sense - when Abby twatting Joel, then Ellie bursts in. Why doesn't Abby kill Ellie then instead of the boss fight we see later? If Abby lets her go then Ellie must do something afterwards to cause the beatdown.

If Abby already wanted Ellie & Joel dead she had the chance there to kill both of them.

Abby didn't want Ellie dead at first, so she captures her instead. But Ellie breaks free and kills Abby's friends in the process.

Then Abby's have the moral motivation to hunt down Ellie.

That's the logic they are following, at least.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

The argumentation of the SJW defense force it's becoming better by the minute

I haven't even played one The Last Of Us game and yet they are giving me this so much fun.

Thank you, Neil Cuckmann. I love you.

That must be why you're spending so much time in this thread, totally makes sense.

 

[Clear]

Oh, here comes the ad hominem attacks.

How cute.

Nope, just an observation based on your own words. I could switch a few adjectives and get the exact sort of hysterical reaction we've grown accustomed to mocking from Resetera. Not see a problem with that?

 

[DForce]

They developed the story 10 years ago, now they are going full SJW.

And dignity isn't being the protagonist of a game and then come back in the sequel just to be utterly humiliated and murdered, so your murderer can literally replace you in the game.

That's the poster child definition of being thrown away with absolutely no dignity.



Please, stop shocking me so much.



You haven't claimed her to be a big influence on your works. Sometimes that clarifies the matter a lot.

But yes, you are undoubtedly a force in favour of SJW ideology and tropes, seeing how much damage control you are capable to do in their favour every time someone dares to point out a game is pushing some SJW tropes.

If there wasn't for the fact that Cuckmann already recognised that Anita influences his works, you would still be here playing the old disingenuos “you don't have any proof any of this is politically motivated” while trying to discredit everyone who sees it.

You are not the first to do that type of intellectually dishonest damage control.

This is why you shouldn't draw conclusions with no facts.

I'm in my 30's and I've been drawing and writing characters ever since I was 10 years old. Diversity has been something that I like because fighting games, and they feature characters from across the world. This is also the reason why I make a lot of female characters, too.

If you've read my post, then you would realize that I said I agree with Antia on *some* things." And what are those? There's a specific way you can represent women in video games and it doesn't have to be sexualized. She also says that women fighting in high heels is not realistic. And guess what? That's pretty much everything I can agree with her on at this point. Other than that, the other stuff she says is complete BS. These things don't have ot be mandatory, but it's some thing I would consider when designing a character.

You have to understand that Neil is not completely influenced by Anita, it's was mostly his daughter. If his daughter wants to appreciate his work one day, then I don't think he would feel comfortable creating characters that he originally designed when he was first working on the last of us.


This is why is funny when people are so quick to assume and cry SJW propaganda whenever someone decides they want to create a female lead character.

 

[RokkanStoned]

He goes on a murderous rampage, you have the option to not kill two of the surgeons, that's it.

No he doesn't. You don't have to kill anyone except that surgeon threatening you and Marlene, who's also threatening you. Hardly a murderous rampage. Your game, your choice.

Yeah, I'm not sure your narrative literacy is great here. The entire game is built up to this moment, it's making you connect with the one person who can save the human race so when it's decided they will be sacrificed for the good of the human race you don't just look at it from a raw numbers point of view which is 1 life vs many the 1 life loses you instead have such an emotional connection to the character you're able to feel what Joel feels in that moment. The entire point of the game is to get you to see the importance of one life when it's weighed against many and then question that choice you made when that one life you saved is that of someone who would have willingly given up their life for others. That's the selfish aspect of Joel, he isn't considering Ellie's wishes or the world at large's ability to continue to thrive.

Nice sarcasm, but sarcasm isn't an argument. So I'll meet your criticism of my "narrative literacy", by focusing on aspects that are done in literary analysis.
Theme? Is the theme "one vs the many"? No. It's not at all a contention through the whole story until the end, when a dilemma is proposed. Nor does it ponder much upon it.
Conflict? Is the conflict regarding the issue of saving many vs the one? Nope. Again, end of the game is the only point such a conflict appears.
Climax? Here you actually can say that the subject of "one vs many" is represented as the climax of the story, but that's from a structural point of view, so the claim that it's the "central idea", is just the biggest hogwash I've heard.
You clearly don't understand that the story is one of Joel, Joel and Ellie. It's not a philosophical pondering, that's only what the players themselves created in response.
It's about dealing with loss, it's about humans during crisis, it's about human connections and opening your heart. It's not about "should we kill one to save many?". How do we know it? Because it's not a dilemma presented during the game and it doesn't show in the dialogue.
We follow Joel losing someone in the prologue. We see him disgruntled and bitter, living a dubious lifestyle, in contrast to his pre-cordyceps self. He's given a mission he doesn't want, to escort Ellie. Through their interactions they both fight and grow closer, leading to Joel changing his priorities and eventually opening up. Same with Ellie. In the end they barely make it to the hospital and the fireflies take an unconscious Ellie to the operating table to kill her "for the greater good". What did you say about "Ellie's wishes" again?

You absolutely can help make an antagonist more three dimensional by viewing things from their point of view, this isn't even up for debate.

It's totally up for debate, because it's merely a point of view. It's a lense. It isn't the same as dimensionality. It's merely one of the narrative ways of presenting the information and giving . It's not an important thing for dimensionality (again, WHAT KIND OF DIMENSIONALITY, I asked you. Define what you mean.)

You don't need their inner thoughts, you empathize with people when you're made to play as them, that's how games have always worked. I didn't say multi-dimensional characters require you to use their point of view, I said it's a good way to do that, not the only way.

It's not a "good way", because that entails that there's a perspective that's bad for it, but there's really not. It is merely a way to present the information. It's often also the laziest way, because you can just rant out without a care of subtlety. Does it make it a good way? I wouldn't say so. I don't think it makes it a bad way either, but it has nothing to do with dimensionality itself.

If you choose to kill the other doctors Joel takes clear pleasure in it. Your argument seems to be it's morally okay to kill people who are performing a surgery that has a high chance of killing the patient, even if you know that surgery could lead to millions of lives saved, it's not a strong argument. Especially when you know Ellie would have volunteered her life to save others.

No, he doesn't. Stop pulling shit from your ass. I just looked up a video of someone killing them. Are you projecting?
Nice strawman as well. No, my position isn't that "it's okay to kill people who are performing a surgery that has a high chance of killing the patient, even if it can lead to millions saved". My position is that taking an unconscious 14 year old girl and do a surgical operation that will kill her "for the greater good" is wrong. My position is also that if said doctor tries to bring forth a weapon and threaten to use it if I get close, that it's reasonable grounds for self-defense. I don't care about whether your consequentialist point of view sees it as a "not strong argument", but you're not really managing at attacking it either.
Ellie never got the choice to sacrifice her life (which is a point that's a big topic regarding the end with Joel) and even if she did she's 14 and under severe survivor's guilt and pressure. Hell no is she able to make an informed and voluntary and pressure free decision.

I'm dismissing your arguments because you're placing limitations on how a narrative can be told and unfold and you're wrong to do so. What do you mean has nothing to do with a happy ending or not at all?

You're dismissing my arguments because I'm placing limitations on how narratives are structured? Despite that you can narrate things however you want, that doesn't mean that is a good way to narrate them. That's because stories have specific structures and dramaturgy to them. That's why you have "good writing classes", because there are patterns in what makes writing a good story. With enough craft and skill one can even sometimes break them in experimental ways, but will still generally follow most principles of the original means of structuring certain stories. Just because you can write a story that jumps between 20 people in 20 different locations every 5 sentence, that doesn't mean it's conductive to good story or a pleasent reading experience.

How does it waste Ellie?

Because giving her a revenge story is the opposite of giving her growth and wide representation. As said, compare God of War (PS4) vs the other God of War games. You can even see this point in many of the reviews I've seen, whether Gameinformer or Polygon. It's also a perfect comparison, because GoW (PS4) capitalizes on a lot of what made The Last of Us so good, more specifically its choice of not going for a revenge story and instead focusing on a paternal story of a journey.

God of War 2018 was embraced for a lot of reasons, also you need to stop with God of War, it's like it's the only media involving revenge you've ever consumed in your life and you base everything around it like it set up the rules for how that works. It's kind of sad.

It should be easy to find some data, since there are reviews. So "a lot of reasons" seem a little too broad. Why not just look it up?
I'm using God of War as an example because it's a _game_ that embodies the revenge trope, because it goes through numerous versions of it. There are tons of "revenge" media. Whether Kill Bill, Battle Royale 2 (and to a degree 1), Le Comte de Monte-Cristo, Chan-wook's Vengeance Trilogy, the Punisher, Deadpool, Kurapika of HxH, Sweeny Todd, Last House on the Left (the old one and it's a fucking bizarre movie), Berserk, John Wick and fuck probably much much more if I can go over my book and movie collection.

Okay this last section is beyond dumb, Abby doesn't need to know Joel's motives or understand them to want vengeance for him murdering her father. The cycle still exists because Abby's revenge on Joel leads to Ellie wanting revenge on Abby. Also I'm not sure you're all that well versed on what The Last of Us was about based on your comments. It doesn't matter, though, even with revenge not existing as a plot point in TLOU it can be what the second game is about... because the second game isn't bound by the themes of the first. However it does fit the themes of the first, stuff like how we're haunted by past violence, which is exactly what Abby is, Joel's violent past coming back to haunt him. Even from your deontological point of view why does Joel need to kill the surgeon after so easily disarming him?

It matters meta-narratively, regarding the presenting of a revenge cycle and in terms of connectivity to the previous story. If you kill some random guy, that's not enough for the next game to suddenly be about that random killing. You need more connections for it to work. Either by just switching perspective all the way, inversing things. Or by having that death be something meaningful in the original story or connected to a specific story beat of the original.
Since we know that Abby comes AFTER Ellie, this fucks everything up by making Abby, which should be the instigator, the latter PoV of the story. That means that it's set up as Ellie's revenge story, while originally being Abby's revenge story. Narrative order matters a lot in terms of presenting a good revenge story, otherwise they are out of causality, leading them to work against each other.
Once they made the decision to start with Ellie, to make her the establishing part of the game, probably for "shock" and thinking that they are more clever than Kojima, it already tied the base of the game to the first game. Then they tied a revenge of a insignificant character as the later backdrop. It just doesn't work well from a structural point.
And, no, the first game doesn't tell us "how we're haunted by our past violence", it really doesn't. Please point this out to me. There's walkthroughs on the internet. Point to the scene that shows it. The pivotal establishing scene of TLoU is Joel losing his daughter, not for violence done by him. Nor is the guy who killed her haunted by his violence.
From a deontological view (depending on which deontological view you take) Joel acted in self-defense. Just because he disarmed him in that instance, doesn't mean that he still wasn't in danger and the guy made a clear threat and Ellie was still there. Disarming someone in such circumstances and then backing off shouldn't be the only moral right choice.

 

[DForce]

They developed the story 10 years ago, now they are going full SJW.

And dignity isn't being the protagonist of a game and then come back in the sequel just to be utterly humiliated and murdered, so your murderer can literally replace you in the game.

That's the poster child definition of being thrown away with absolutely no dignity.

Dignity is defined as being worthy of respect and honor.

I'm sure Ellie is doing that throughout the game, and so are developers for going deep in to his story. Killing him with no dignity would be allowing him to die when you first jump into the game, and that's clearly not happening.


Ellie bent on revenge is in large part of Joel.

 

[MayauMiao]

If you've read my post, then you would realize that I said I agree with Antia on *some* things." And what are those? There's a specific way you can represent women in video games and it doesn't have to be sexualized. She also says that women fighting in high heels is not realistic.

But women in fighting games, going up against men, is also not realistic.

 

[nemiroff]

Having watched the leaked footage one more time, I'm am now doubly sure this is going to disappoint so many people, and not because of what most here think.

The writing, the dialogue, it's just... bad... Like, just really really bad. Too much exposition, to much trying to be meaningful, thoughtful, deep. It's just drivel. It's serious characters looking serious spewing serious expository dialogue while at the same time leaving nothing for the player to dissect or to think about. The game does the thinking for you. Neill ''2 Deep 4 U'' Druckmann's editors should've done a way better job, that is, if they could actually do their job by, you know, leaving shit out that doesn't work. It feels like the writers (or, writer which is what I suspect) does not trust the player. It TELLS you how you SHOULD feel, with almost every single line. I felt like a moron watching it.

Dina looks to be a character that I just really can't give a fuck about, at all. That and the melodrama surrounding her and Jesse just makes my eyes roll at best. It's high school drama in a setting that is supposed to be serious. It should be about survival. Humanity. Instead it's about stupid feelings that don't even come across at all. It feels so completely out of place it's incredible. From what I've seen they try so fucking hard to make you care about this love triangle, but it just has no place in the universe they created in the first place. It feels forced for the feels, but it just fails miserably because it is shoved in your face how much you should feel bad for these characters that it feels the player gets no time to make up a mind of their own. That and it's just out of place. So completely out of place.

It's completely tone deaf to it's own universe.

The minimalism that made the first game so good is just... gone. It's all, ''he did this to her and then she did that to that other her but then he comes in and does this to her but she is secretly another person who was brought into it by him and then he turns out to be pregnant by her but he still has feelings for that person but that person has to leave and yet she wants love but that other person can't give her love because of him and yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda''.

It's absolutely fucking terrible. The first one tried to be minimalistic, thoughtful, slow moving, and while not as good as some journalists made it out to be, it at least partially succeeded by not treating the player like a moron and also by making people make up their own minds and ideas about things.

By comparison, these feels like a whole load of meaningless, hot air. Like no one dared stand up to Druckmann to tell him to maybe slim it down a little. Kill your darlings, as they say in the writing world.

Also, what I've seen wasn't just bad, it was insanely boring. That's right. Boring.

In the end, it's about a juvenile love triangle. And babies. And Chinese simps.

Love triangle. Babies. Simps.

Let that sink in after what the first one did, and then you'll realize how bad this is.

Less is more, Neill.

Good points. The developer should obviously leave the faux pas forced wokeness behind and instead take cues from great jazz singers (f.ex.) about the art of technique, timing and how to master negative space. Heck, it's even easier ways; Druckmann could just take a moment to ponder why the "Aliens" movie could have such an awesome strong female lead who everyone adore without anyone, including male chauvinists, ever question a possible hidden agenda.

 

[DForce]

But women in fighting games, going up against men, is also not realistic.

Sure it's not, but there's always a balance when it comes to realism.

Characters having super moves is not realistic.
Characters having a life bar is not realistic.

So this is having a woman who wants to fight in high keels while wearing a bra and panties in a tournament.

 

[Jon Neu]

That must be why you're spending so much time in this thread, totally makes sense.

Are you infering that I’m lying and therefore I have played The Last Of Us but I don't want people to know that I played The Last Of Us?

To be true, I did play The Last Of Us, you got me there. I played like 15 minutes on it, then I got bored of the controls and abandoned it forever. It happens to me sometimes, especially when I don't have much time. I did the same with God Of War to recently rediscover it and enjoy it a lot. Maybe I have to buy The Last Of Us again and play it for real this time.

And I’m so much in this thread because A) confinament, B) the crazy leaks of one of the biggsest franchises of the medium, C) SJWism discussions.

Nope, just an observation based on your own words. I could switch a few adjectives and get the exact sort of hysterical reaction we've grown accustomed to mocking from Resetera. Not see a problem with that?

The funny thing is that you are just projecting.

I’m by far the motherfucker who is enjoying the thread the most. You and the rest of the SJW defense force are the ones getting triggered because other people laugh at the obvious SJW tropes the game is filled with.

And therefore, because you are triggered, you indulge in lame ass attempts to dismiss the people who are laughing at the leaks. I mean, this attempt is making me feel ashamed, but not for me, that's for sure.

You even invoke Resetera, which is funny, because what you say is far more aligned with them than with Gaf.

Ironic, isn't it?

 

[Bryank75]

I can't wait for Nintendo to follow TLOU2 after the incredible reviews for this come out....

Turn Princess Peach trans and give her a golf club to go to work on Mario..... edgy stuff for the kids.

They have to grow up sometime and realize that's how the world is golfclubs, smashed heads and alphabet love triangles.

 

[Jon Neu]

Sure it's not, but there's always a balance when it comes to realism.

Characters having super moves is not realistic.
Characters having a life bar is not realistic.

So this is having a woman who wants to fight in high keels while wearing a bra and panties in a tournament.

So the unrealistic bits that suit my political agenda are ok, but the other ones aren't.

The funny thing is that is far more realistic for women to dress sexy than to be stronger than men.

 

[RokkanStoned]

Sure it's not, but there's always a balance when it comes to realism.

Characters having super moves is not realistic.
Characters having a life bar is not realistic.

So this is having a woman who wants to fight in high keels while wearing a bra and panties in a tournament.

I was about to agree with you (because games do a lot of unrealistic things, even those seemingly going for a realistic approach), but you picked some terrible examples. The UI is clearly not an element that's comparable to the physicality of characters in the world. Or is the lifebar an in-universe thing in a story focused on realism?

Your woman example also seems dubious. Not the high heels part, but the criticism of bra and panties. How is that unrealistic? Is there any functional unrealism with it? Please explain.

 

[MayauMiao]

Sure it's not, but there's always a balance when it comes to realism.

Characters having super moves is not realistic.
Characters having a life bar is not realistic.

So this is having a woman who wants to fight in high keels while wearing a bra and panties in a tournament.

What is up with the fireball and super move reference? Even if you took those away, no way women can stand up against men physically.

 

[Clear]

The funny thing is that you are just projecting.

I’m by far the motherfucker who is enjoying the thread the most. You and the rest of the SJW defense force are the ones getting triggered because other people laugh at the obvious SJW tropes the game is filled with.

And therefore, because you are triggered, you indulge in lame ass attempts to dismiss the people who are laughing at the leaks. I mean, this attempt is making me feel ashamed, but not for me, that's for sure.

You even invoke Resetera, which is funny, because what you say is far more aligned with them than with Gaf.

Ironic, isn't it?

Nope. The only truth coming from you is that you are trolling. The rest is just ass-backwards bullshit that I doubt even you believe. (noone else does I assure you).

But to spell it out for you: I'm obviously not a SJW. My entire post history on this board should demonstrate that beyond any shadow of doubt. I'm also not an alt-right dickhead who gets his micro-penis bent out of shape by attacks on white manhood.

 

[B-universe]

(...)

If you've read my post, then you would realize that I said I agree with Antia on *some* things." And what are those? There's a specific way you can represent women in video games and it doesn't have to be sexualized.

Your phrasing here is extremely ambiguous.

"There's a specific way"? Meaning there's a correct way women should be represented? Why?

Why is sexualization reproachable? ?

She also says that women fighting in high heels is not realistic.

Not all games are meant to be realistic.

You have to understand that Neil is not completely influenced by Anita, it's was mostly his daughter. If his daughter wants to appreciate his work one day, then I don't think he would feel comfortable creating characters that he originally designed when he was first working on the last of us.

Neil can do whatever he wants. He's the VP of ND.

This is why is funny when people are so quick to assume and cry SJW propaganda whenever someone decides they want to create a female lead character.

To me his motives are irrelevant. What matters the most is the end product. But I cannot un-watch the video I have watched where Neil is as candid as possible and spells out loud his explicitly ideological motivations.

 

[Teslerum]

And you think it's not possible?

Remember, this videogame is made by someone who claims that Anita Sarkeesian is a big influence on his works. Are you familiar with Anita Sarkeesian ideology?

It's far more crazy to believe they aren't doing it in part for that reason. In their feminist/LGTB story fantasy, a powerful white male being the hero/protagonist doesn't fly anymore. I'm sure they were literally craving to killing him.

Also him being killed by a girl plays one of the old SJW fantasies of women being as strong or stronger than men.

ND loves it's super incredibly unrealisticlly strong women beating up white men.

That's not even speculation.

He already admitted himself to doing things like this:

. "Initially, in the epilogue, it was Nate's son," Druckmann said. "When I'm introducing and describing a new character to our lead character concept artist, constantly she will ask, 'What if it was a girl?'" Druckmann said, when asked how his interest in the work of Feminist Frequency affected the recent PlayStation 4 game. "And I'm like, Oh, I didn't think about that. Let me think, does that affect or change anything? No? Cool, that's different. Yeah, let's do it."

 

[Explosive Zombie]

No he doesn't. You don't have to kill anyone except that surgeon threatening you and Marlene, who's also threatening you. Hardly a murderous rampage. Your game, your choice.

The only people you can decide not to kill in that entire section of the game are two of the surgeons, everyone else meets a grisly end and they meet that end because they tried to save the world.

Nice sarcasm, but sarcasm isn't an argument. So I'll meet your criticism of my "narrative literacy", by focusing on aspects that are done in literary analysis.
Theme? Is the theme "one vs the many"? No. It's not at all a contention through the whole story until the end, when a dilemma is proposed. Nor does it ponder much upon it.
Conflict? Is the conflict regarding the issue of saving many vs the one? Nope. Again, end of the game is the only point such a conflict appears.
Climax? Here you actually can say that the subject of "one vs many" is represented as the climax of the story, but that's from a structural point of view, so the claim that it's the "central idea", is just the biggest hogwash I've heard.
You clearly don't understand that the story is one of Joel, Joel and Ellie. It's not a philosophical pondering, that's only what the players themselves created in response.
It's about dealing with loss, it's about humans during crisis, it's about human connections and opening your heart. It's not about "should we kill one to save many?". How do we know it? Because it's not a dilemma presented during the game and it doesn't show in the dialogue.
We follow Joel losing someone in the prologue. We see him disgruntled and bitter, living a dubious lifestyle, in contrast to his pre-cordyceps self. He's given a mission he doesn't want, to escort Ellie. Through their interactions they both fight and grow closer, leading to Joel changing his priorities and eventually opening up. Same with Ellie. In the end they barely make it to the hospital and the fireflies take an unconscious Ellie to the operating table to kill her "for the greater good". What did you say about "Ellie's wishes" again?

When an idea is presented doesn't stop it from being a theme in a game. You're right, though, the game doesn't have an extended dialogue about the theme, it's just there... show not tell. The entire point of the game is you getting Ellie to the Fireflies to save humanity, the entire game is based on your goal of saving humanity. Lots of media only reveals it central idea in its third act or climax actually. Except it is, Druckmann specifically said the game was made to suit his personal politics, he didn't just make a story about two characters and nothing beyond that. Wait, how is it not a dilemma in the game? Joel finds out Ellie will most likely die during the operation and decides to save her because he considers the one more important than the many, the dilemma is 100% there, how can you argue it isn't? It is about human connection and opening your heart, but without that aspect Joel wouldn't make the decision he made. By having Joel forsake humanity to save Ellie Druckmann has called into question our morals in regards to how we deal with those we've connected to and opened our heart to. You might need to play the game again because Ellie was always dead set on getting to the Fireflies and after the climax she's clearly upset with what happened and doesn't trust Joel's side of the story (which is lies). If Ellie would have sided with Joel why did he need to lie to her? If Ellie's wishes were what mattered to Joel why didn't he hold them off at gun point and order them to wake Ellie and ask her permission? You really think Joel would have allowed this if Ellie had said "I'll do it even if it kills me"? You don't think after losing a daughter already he wouldn't protect her from such a thing?

It's totally up for debate, because it's merely a point of view. It's a lense. It isn't the same as dimensionality. It's merely one of the narrative ways of presenting the information and giving . It's not an important thing for dimensionality (again, WHAT KIND OF DIMENSIONALITY, I asked you. Define what you mean.)

It's usually pretty clear what people mean when they say they want 3 dimensional characters, characters with depth, I don't know why you're playing dumb on this issue. It's almost as if there's nothing you won't argue.

It's not a "good way", because that entails that there's a perspective that's bad for it, but there's really not. It is merely a way to present the information. It's often also the laziest way, because you can just rant out without a care of subtlety. Does it make it a good way? I wouldn't say so. I don't think it makes it a bad way either, but it has nothing to do with dimensionality itself.

You're saying there are no good or bad ways to add depth to a character or help a player empathize with a character? They're all inherently equally viable? Not sure what just rant out without a care of subtlety even means or how it relates to a POV shift.

No, he doesn't. Stop pulling shit from your ass. I just looked up a video of someone killing them. Are you projecting?
Nice strawman as well. No, my position isn't that "it's okay to kill people who are performing a surgery that has a high chance of killing the patient, even if it can lead to millions saved". My position is that taking an unconscious 14 year old girl and do a surgical operation that will kill her "for the greater good" is wrong. My position is also that if said doctor tries to bring forth a weapon and threaten to use it if I get close, that it's reasonable grounds for self-defense. I don't care about whether your consequentialist point of view sees it as a "not strong argument", but you're not really managing at attacking it either.
Ellie never got the choice to sacrifice her life (which is a point that's a big topic regarding the end with Joel) and even if she did she's 14 and under severe survivor's guilt and pressure. Hell no is she able to make an informed and voluntary and pressure free decision.

Didn't pull anything out of my ass but your inability to read into things like body language and your inability to connect with Joel aren't surprising considering the way you talk in this argument in general, like this is all strictly analytical and you have no emotional stake in anything. Joel wasn't acting in self defense, the second he had disarmed the surgeon the surgeon wasn't a real threat to him, to still kill him then becomes murder. You're getting into why the sequence is nuanced, not why one of is right and the other is wrong. The problem is you only see the flaws in one side's logic and not Joel's for some reason, it's apparently fine Joel did what he did in your esteem and there's absolutely no gray area where he did something that was anything besides EXACTLY the right decision.

You're dismissing my arguments because I'm placing limitations on how narratives are structured?
You were the one who brought up the happy ending. Why are you asking me?

Artificial limitations at that. Not sure what you're on about with the happy ending idea. I brought up that the game doesn't have a happy ending unless you don't know have good narrative literacy, they're not happy at the end, the human race is still doomed and Ellie no longer knows she can trust Joel.

Because giving her a revenge story is the opposite of giving her growth and wide representation. As said, compare God of War (PS4) vs the other God of War games. You can even see this point in many of the reviews I've seen, whether Gameinformer or Polygon. It's also a perfect comparison, because GoW (PS4) capitalizes on a lot of what made The Last of Us so good, more specifically its choice of not going for a revenge story and instead focusing on a paternal story of a journey.

How is a revenge story antithetical to character growth and whatever wide representation is? The Last of Us was so good because it's not a revenge story? Literally what the FUCK are you on about, that's something no one has ever said EVER besides you. The quality of the game has nothing to do with whether or not revenge was a theme, Jesus Christ.

It should be easy to find some data, since there are reviews. So "a lot of reasons" seem a little too broad. Why not just look it up?
I'm using God of War as an example because it's a _game_ that embodies the revenge trope, because it goes through numerous versions of it. There are tons of "revenge" media. Whether Kill Bill, Battle Royale 2 (and to a degree 1), Le Comte de Monte-Cristo, Chan-wook's Vengeance Trilogy, the Punisher, Deadpool, Kurapika of HxH, Sweeny Todd, Last House on the Left (the old one and it's a fucking bizarre movie), Berserk, John Wick and fuck probably much much more if I can go over my book and movie collection.

I don't need to look it up, I'm not the one who believes the entire selling point of God of War 2018 is that it wasn't about revenge. Like seriously WTF are you on about?

It matters meta-narratively, regarding the presenting of a revenge cycle and in terms of connectivity to the previous story. If you kill some random guy, that's not enough for the next game to suddenly be about that random killing. You need more connections for it to work. Either by just switching perspective all the way, inversing things. Or by having that death be something meaningful in the original story or connected to a specific story beat of the original.
Since we know that Abby comes AFTER Ellie, this fucks everything up by making Abby, which should be the instigator, the latter PoV of the story. That means that it's set up as Ellie's revenge story, while originally being Abby's revenge story. Narrative order matters a lot in terms of presenting a good revenge story, otherwise they are out of causality, leading them to work against each other.
Once they made the decision to start with Ellie, to make her the establishing part of the game, probably for "shock" and thinking that they are more clever than Kojima, it already tied the base of the game to the first game. Then they tied a revenge of a insignificant character as the later backdrop. It just doesn't work well from a structural point.
And, no, the first game doesn't tell us "how we're haunted by our past violence", it really doesn't. Please point this out to me. There's walkthroughs on the internet. Point to the scene that shows it. The pivotal establishing scene of TLoU is Joel losing his daughter, not for violence done by him. Nor is the guy who killed her haunted by his violence.
From a deontological view (depending on which deontological view you take) Joel acted in self-defense. Just because he disarmed him in that instance, doesn't mean that he still wasn't in danger and the guy made a clear threat and Ellie was still there. Disarming someone in such circumstances and then backing off shouldn't be the only moral right choice.

It was connected to a specific story beat... it was connected to the biggest story beat in the game, it was part of the goddamn climax. Like I'm beginning to feel like you are the weridest person I've ever debated anything with.
Okay this whole section here about the narrative structure is absolute dog shit. We only know so much from the leaks but what we do know is it does not BEGIN as a revenge story for Ellie, in the beginning of the game things are going FINE for her and she's fallen in love with someone. They're unaware someone wants revenge on Joel. WTF do you mean more clever than Kojima or for shock? It's going to begin about Ellie because she's the main character of the prior game and the prior game already felt like it was setting her up for a future starring role (assuming a sequel was made). How is the Abby character insignificant?
Joel losing his daughter haunts him throughout the game, when he begins connecting with Ellie he also begins to realize he may lose this daughter as well (which is most the reason he's initially reticent to connect with her) and then by the end he's put in the same situation again, he's about to lose his new daughter. The violence of his past haunts him, this is absolutely evident.
Are you serious with me? That guy even with a scalpel wasn't a threat to Joel who was better armed. Joel manhandled that guy like he was absolutely nothing, because to Joel he was, the idea it was self defense is absolutely insane. How about the most moral choice? You know because there's shades of gray? Even when the guy threatens Joel there's clear fear in his voice, he's more scared of Joel than Joel is of him, the scalpel is only even held at Joel in self defense of this crazed madman.

Edit: To go on further, Joel kills Marlene while she has her hands up, he lies to Ellie telling her there's dozens more like her and they've stopped looking for a cure, he does this because he knows if Ellie knew the truth she'd have chosen to sacrifice herself so others can live. When Joel tells her these lies she turns her back to him, like how is the symbolic nature of that not clear? HE LEGIT MURDERS A WOUNDER WOMAN BEGGING TO BE LET GO.

 

[iNvid02]

thanks big boob anime, this is the response

 

[Steve.1981]

Since the ending to the original game is cropping up again, I'll say again what I've said before.

Joel was right.

Yes, there are nuances. Yes, you can look at the wider picture & the consequences of his actions & debate it all until the cows come home. But the fact is Joel was right.

The entire story builds to the point of Joel doing what he does. The entire game prepared you for what happened & explained why Joel would do what he did. It gives you all the information you need. Joel was a good man. A loving, single father raising his daughter. They have a very good relationship. She is taken away from him forever in brutal, confusing circumstances by someone who thinks they are doing what is right. Joel becomes a bad man, haunted by his pain, driven to never allow the horrors of the world to beat him again. Then he meets Ellie. From that moment, his hard outer shell begins to crumble & his innate goodness begins to reappear. They go on a journey together. Physically, mentally, emotionally... Every way possible. Ellie is shown to be suffering from survivor's guilt. She struggles with the feeling that she must do something to make up for all of the pain, suffering & death that has surrounded her & she has lived through as a child. While this is happening, the game takes the time to slowly reveal how desperate & essentially hopeless Marlene & the Fireflies have become. It all builds perfectly, beautifully to that ending where Ellie is unconscious & has no say in the matter, leaving the responsible adults in her life to make the choices.

The cure is in no way guaranteed. It is a hope. A maybe. A possibility. That is a fact, there are no two ways about it. There is no guarantee that killing Ellie & cutting up her brain will save anybody. Marlene knows that. Joel knows it. The doctors & surgeons know it. Everybody knows it.

So the only question asked is what will a parent (Joel) do? Faced with the prospect of being forced to let another child die & hoping that it might mean something, that it could possibly lead to some good, maybe... This time. What will this guy, uniquely prepared through his history to make the choice in that hard moment, do?

What the fuck do you think he'll do. You can try & remove yourself from the hard reality that you're killing a child because maybe that'll lead to some good. You can try & justify it if you want. Joel knows. He's been there. He sees clean through you & has a simple answer, forged in the fires of a hard life spent fighting against that very thing having already happened. The senseless death of an innocent child who could do nothing to defend herself. He'll say, "Yeah. You keep telling yourself that bullshit" & then he'll do what needs to be done.

God damn... The Last of Us was so good.

 

[Jon Neu]

You have to understand that Neil is not completely influenced by Anita, it's was mostly his daughter.

No, it's him, his daughter was too young to understand the SJW ideology -but I'm sure Cuckmann has being doing a good job all this years educating her on the matters-.

He just brought up his daughter because that's why SJW like to do. How many stories are out there about parents claiming “my 4 year old daughter just told me the bravest thing -that happens to corroborate my ideology in a cute manner-“.

In reality, not of that ever happened. And if it really happened, it's because the parents bombarded their childs with their ideology first.

It's like the incredible rise of little children that claim to be trans in the west recently. Do you think they thought about that by themselves?

But it's Neil the one who thinks Anita is a heroine and states that she is an influence on his works.

Nope. The only truth coming from you is that you are trolling. The rest is just ass-backwards bullshit that I doubt even you believe. (noone else does I assure you).

But to spell it out for you: I'm obviously not a SJW. My entire post history on this board should demonstrate that beyond any shadow of doubt. I'm also not an alt-right dickhead who gets his micro-penis bent out of shape by attacks on white manhood.

Please, everybody look at this. I mean, literally watch this.

He comes at the thread, tries to insult me personally and now calls me an “alt right dickhead with a micropenis”. And all because I’m critizicing a videogame and it's politics in a joyful manner. I’m sure that if this was the old gaf and he was a mod, he would have banned me already.

And the best part is that he claims that he is not a SJW and that I’m the one triggered. Isn't the irony and the lack of self-awareness utterly delicious?

In Resetera are looking for people like you who also babble about “fragile masculinity” and “nazi alt-righters”. They also can't have a poltical discussion without retorting to trying to cancel the ones who don't think like them.

Just saying.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Since the ending to the original game is cropping up again, I'll say again what I've said before.

Joel was right.

Yes, there are nuances. Yes, you can look at the wider picture & the consequences of his actions & debate it all until the cows come home. But the fact is Joel was right.

The entire story builds to the point of Joel doing what he does. The entire game prepared you for what happened & explained why Joel would do what he did. It gives you all the information you need. Joel was a good man. A loving, single father raising his daughter. They have a very good relationship. She is taken away from him forever in brutal, confusing circumstances by someone who thinks they are doing what is right. Joel becomes a bad man, haunted by his pain, driven to never allow the horrors of the world to beat him again. Then he meets Ellie. From that moment, his hard outer shell begins to crumble & his innate goodness begins to reappear. They go on a journey together. Physically, mentally, emotionally... Every way possible. Ellie is shown to be suffering from survivor's guilt. She struggles with the feeling that she must do something to make up for all of the pain, suffering & death that has surrounded her & she has lived through as a child. While this is happening, the game takes the time to slowly reveal how desperate & essentially hopeless Marlene & the Fireflies have become. It all builds perfectly, beautifully to that ending where Ellie is unconscious & has no say in the matter, leaving the responsible adults in her life to make the choices.

The cure is in no way guaranteed. It is a hope. A maybe. A possibility. That is a fact, there are no two ways about it. There is no guarantee that killing Ellie & cutting up her brain will save anybody. Marlene knows that. Joel knows it. The doctors & surgeons know it. Everybody knows it.

So the only question asked is what will a parent (Joel) do? Faced with the prospect of being forced to let another child die & hoping that it might mean something, that it could possibly lead to some good, maybe... This time. What will this guy, uniquely prepared through his history to make the choice in that hard moment, do?

What the fuck do you think he'll do. You can try & remove yourself from the hard reality that you're killing a child because maybe that'll lead to some good. You can try & justify it if you want. Joel knows. He's been there. He sees clean through you & has a simple answer, forged in the fires of a hard life spent fighting against that very thing having already happened. The senseless death of an innocent child who could do nothing to defend herself. He'll say, "Yeah. You keep telling yourself that bullshit" & then he'll do what needs to be done.

God damn... The Last of Us was so good.

Don't disagree with any of that, I just think certain people are totally disregarding the nuance to it and how the lies Joel told are going to fester and result in the comeuppance we're getting in the sequel.

 

[DForce]

What is up with the fireball and super move reference? Even if you took those away, no way women can stand up against men physically.

I was about to agree with you (because games do a lot of unrealistic things, even those seemingly going for a realistic approach), but you picked some terrible examples. The UI is clearly not an element that's comparable to the physicality of characters in the world. Or is the lifebar an in-universe thing in a story focused on realism?

Your woman example also seems dubious. Not the high heels part, but the criticism of bra and panties. How is that unrealistic? Is there any functional unrealism with it? Please explain.

Everything is relative to the story.

Super heroes human characters are not real, but they are in the world that's being created.

In the world of Mortal Kombat, all female characters are going to show up in high heels and a bikini. There's nothing stopping writers from doing this, but you know how people are going to say, "Do you really think Jade, Kitana, Sonya are really going to show up in a tournament wearing high heels and a bikini?"


As I said, there needs to be a balance. We know Mortal Kombat has x-Ray moves in which a guy is getting his eyes shot out, but only for them to return after that move is finished. We understand that it's designed to for something to look cool.

We know a life bar is used for competitive matches online and it's not tied to the world of Mortal Kombat. That is for the players playing the game. That's the concept we understand.


The point is, we overlook or ignore things something because we know it's not real. This is the balance that i'm talking about.

How this relates to the Last of Us is that we know women aren't built like this, but it's a game. Everything doesn't need to be realistic, just like Ellie fighting hundreds of men bigger than her isn't real, but she struggles to fight a boss 1-on-1.

 

[Clear]

He comes at the thread, tries to insult me personally and now calls me an “alt right dickhead with a micropenis”.

Work on your reading comprehension. Its as defective as the rest of your argumentation.

Best part is this:

And all because I’m critizicing a videogame and it's politics in a joyful manner.

How is that not straight-up admitting to trolling?

 

[Steve.1981]

Don't disagree with any of that, I just think certain people are totally disregarding the nuance to it and how the lies Joel told are going to fester and result in the comeuppance we're getting in the sequel.

See that's one of the ways that these leaks have lost me. Joel lied to Ellie, & she knew it. The consequences of that lie should be felt between the two of them. That's what was interesting about the ending. What will Ellie do when she grows up & inevitably questions Joel further on his actions & the circumstances leading to them. Will she blame Joel for taking away her chance to do something meaningful. Will she understand that he couldn't do anything else.

Based on what's been leaked, we don't seem to be getting a look at that. Or at least, it doesn't seem to be the focus at all. We should be & it should have been, in my opinion.

 

[DForce]

No, it's him, his daughter was too young to understand the SJW ideology -but I'm sure Cuckmann has being doing a good job all this years educating her on the matters-.

He just brought up his daughter because that's why SJW like to do. How many stories are out there about parents claiming “my 4 year old daughter just told me the bravest thing -that happens to corroborate my ideology in a cute manner-“.

In reality, not of that ever happened. And if it really happened, it's because the parents bombarded their childs with their ideology first.

It's like the incredible rise of little children that claim to be trans in the west recently. Do you think they thought about that by themselves?

But it's Neil the one who thinks Anita is a heroine and states that she is an influence on his wor

You're sure with no facts? Just more assumptions.

Joel was the main protagonist of TLOU 1. That was given to Ellie in TLOU 2. If he was all about having a strong female character, Tess would have taken the place of Joel in the story.

You guys are just drawing conclusions that makes no sense. If Neil didn't like white male characters and he had a major impact on the series he help create, Joel would have been a woman or a minority character. Sam would have been kicked to the side and Elena would have received a bigger role.

But I know what you're going to say now. They're making the next Uncharted games about Drakes daughter? Would that even matter? A new Uncharted game would just be a story of a young Drake if it was a male character. Just do something a bit different and make it a woman.

 

[Jon Neu]

Work on your reading comprehension. Its as defective as the rest of your argumentation.

I knew you were going to go with the “I didn't said you were” angle.

Predictable and intellectually dishonest.

How is that not straight-up admitting to trolling?

Being happy while critizicing something is trolling? You get triggered by memes and gifs too?

Look, dude, I don’t care about your obsession with me. But I'm not the topic of this thread, if you want to have a discussion about the game, let me know.

If you just want to indulge in silly personal attacks, sadly you don't have the capacity to make it interesting and meaningful.

 

[DForce]

Your phrasing here is extremely ambiguous.

"There's a specific way"? Meaning there's a correct way women should be represented? Why?

Why is sexualization reproachable? ?



Not all games are meant to be realistic.



Neil can do whatever he wants. He's the VP of ND.



To me his motives are irrelevant. What matters the most is the end product. But I cannot un-watch the video I have watched where Neil is as candid as possible and spells out loud his explicitly ideological motivations.

It means it doesn't have to be sexualized, but I never said there wasn't a problem with it.

Even Neil (one of the people that we're talking about) says there's nothing wrong with it, and Chole was design for that purpose. He said what matters if the meaning behind it.


If I wanted to write characters for a story directed towards adults, then I would make it more like Sin City. That's just my personal preference. There's nothing wrong with it. But when you're designing characters, you have to consider your target audience likes.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

See that's one of the ways that these leaks have lost me. Joel lied to Ellie, & she knew it. The consequences of that lie should be felt between the two of them. That's what was interesting about the ending. What will Ellie do when she grows up & inevitably questions Joel further on his actions & the circumstances leading to them. Will she blame Joel for taking away her chance to do something meaningful. Will she understand that he couldn't do anything else.

Based on what's been leaked, we don't seem to be getting a look at that. Or at least, it doesn't seem to be the focus at all. We should be & it should have been, in my opinion.

One of the leaked vids entails exactly the things you're talking about actually. Ellie questioning Joel on how true all that was.

 

[B-universe]

It means it doesn't have to be sexualized, but I never said there wasn't a problem with it.

What is sexualization and what is wrong with it?

Even Neil (one of the people that we're talking about) says there's nothing wrong with it, and Chole was design for that purpose. He said what matters if the meaning behind it.

That's clearly at odds with the video where he proclaims his intentions.

 

[Jon Neu]

You're sure with no facts?

It's amazing how you keep ignoring the fact that Neil Cuckmann himself has said that Anita influences his works and he thinks of her as this heroine and groundbreaking thinker.

Joel was the main protagonist of TLOU 1. That was given to Ellie in TLOU 2. If he was all about having a strong female character, Tess would have taken the place of Joel in the story

You aren't born as a SJW, you embrace the ideology by being exposed to it.

And by the interviews he has done, it's obvious he started to think about SJW tropes by the time The Last Of Us development was finished. That's why he says the “Nathan’s child was going to be a son first, but then we changed it to a daughter”.

But I know what you're going to say now. They're making the next Uncharted games about Drakes daughter? Would that even matter? A new Uncharted game would just be a story of a young Drake if it was a male character. Just do something a bit different and make it a woman

Would be funny to have The Last Of Us being the story of two lesbians and Uncharted being the story of a teen girl and then come and see you say things like “nothing SJW about it, you are all making assumptions”.

 

[Steve.1981]

One of the leaked vids entails exactly the things you're talking about actually. Ellie questioning Joel on how true all that was.

Wait... It does?

I haven't watched all the leaks. I saw Abby & Joel. I saw Abby & Ellie & Dina. I read loads of people talking about these leaks, I never seen it mentioned once.

Don't give me false hope man. Don't do me like that.

 

[DForce]

What is sexualization and what is wrong with it?

The cast of Dead or Alive characters are sexualized. There's nothing wrong with it. That's why some people like the game and that's how they draw people in.

That's clearly at odds with the video where he proclaims his intentions.

He said his designs early on were sexualized. He changed them because his staff didn't like them. He also claims that his daughter made him think differently about the stuff he was creating.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Wait... It does?

I haven't watched all the leaks. I saw Abby & Joel. I saw Abby & Ellie & Dina. I read loads of people talking about these leaks, I never seen it mentioned once.

Don't give me false hope man. Don't do me like that.

Yeah, I watched the vid. They find people who have been bitten and turned and Ellie starts saying to Joel "if only there had been a cure" and he repeats the BS about their being dozens like her and she asks why they've never met a single one.

 

[Clear]

If you just want to indulge in silly personal attacks, sadly you don't have the capacity to make it interesting and meaningful.

Honestly, bored of you, and your nonsense. Ignore list time.

 

[Steve.1981]

Yeah, I watched the vid. They find people who have been bitten and turned and Ellie starts saying to Joel "if only there had been a cure" and he repeats the BS about their being dozens like her and she asks why they've never met a single one.

Ahhh mannn...

I can feel a spark. There could be a glimmer of light.

Cheers dude. I'm out of here.

 

[MagnesG]

Yeah, I watched the vid. They find people who have been bitten and turned and Ellie starts saying to Joel "if only there had been a cure" and he repeats the BS about their being dozens like her and she asks why they've never met a single one.

From what I remember the hospital do have records of past patients with immunities like Ellie, but had obviously died due to research.

Is this bullshit?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

From what I remember the hospital do have records of past patients with immunities like Ellie, but had obviously died due to research.

Is this bullshit?

They talk about Ellie as being unlike any of the others, completely one of a kind, one in a million. Joel legit tells her they stopped even searching for a cure, he flagrantly lies to her.

 

[MagnesG]

They talk about Ellie as being unlike any of the others, completely one of a kind, one in a million. Joel legit tells her they stopped even searching for a cure, he flagrantly lies to her.

Yes I do remember he did lied about something, but the risks still exist. We also don't know if Marlene whispered those same sweet words to past patients too.

I mean as a dad figure some people can be highly skeptical and often rash about their child's safety. Idk

 

[small_law]

I just hate it when post-apocalyptic fiction is used to emphasize current, purported societal inequity. In the early post zombie apocalypse, people are going to be toiling in the hinterlands and dying in their 30s. No one is going to give a shit about sexual orientation.

I mean, when this whole COVID thing hit, were any of you like "let's go oppress some lesbians?" Hell no. Y'all we're like "I need more toilet paper right fucking now."

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Yes I do remember he did lied about something, but the risks still exist. We also don't know if Marlene whispered those same sweet words to past patients too.

I mean as a dad figure some people can be highly skeptical and often rash about their child's safety. Idk

The stuff about Ellie being extra special is actually heard in an audio recording Marlene makes. Joel tells her the Fireflies were no longer seeking a cure, that they'd had plenty of people like Ellie who were immune and there was no hope of extracting a cure from them. Which is total horseshit. There are some comments about their having been people the Fireflies performed tests on but it's not clear they were actually immune or not and even if they were it's still emphasized heavily Ellie is special and the game doesn't present this as a lie. Neil Druckmann wants you to know Joel lied to Ellie and the only thing keeping Ellie from feeling extreme guilt over every new infection/death is her belief that Joel is telling the truth, the final scene is her making Joel swear he wasn't lying, but we know her belief in Joel is shaken.

 

[DForce]

It's amazing how you keep ignoring the fact that Neil Cuckmann himself has said that Anita influences his works and he thinks of her as this heroine and groundbreaking thinker.



You aren't born as a SJW, you embrace the ideology by being exposed to it.

And by the interviews he has done, it's obvious he started to think about SJW tropes by the time The Last Of Us development was finished. That's why he says the “Nathan’s child was going to be a son first, but then we changed it to a daughter”.

Would be funny to have The Last Of Us being the story of two lesbians and Uncharted being the story of a teen girl and then come and see you say things like “nothing SJW about it, you are all making assumptions”.

And where is Anita now? You can see people are distancing themselves from her because she's crazy. People can agree with what people believe at first, then completely shut them off as soon as they start going too far.

You aren't born as a SJW, you embrace the ideology by being exposed to it.

And by the interviews he has done, it's obvious he started to think about SJW tropes by the time The Last Of Us development was finished. That's why he says the “Nathan’s child was going to be a son first, but then we changed it to a daughter”.

That's what writers did with Samus Aran. People make changes to characters all the time. Dead or Alive is filled with female characters. Maybe he just likes female characters.

Would be funny to have The Last Of Us being the story of two lesbians and Uncharted being the story of a teen girl and then come and see you say things like “nothing SJW about it, you are all making assumptions”.

I said almost a month ago that if the story was about a christian cult killing Dina because she was a lesbian, then I would agree that it's SJW BS. There's a narrative behind it and he's the entire plot of the story.


Fighting game developers want to create characters of different nationalities all the time. Do you thin they're some SJW reasoning behind it, even though they have been doing this since the 90s?

Guile was created for an american audience. People consider their audience when making characters.