I don't think so, look at ElTorro's post which started that discussion, he specifically talk about anti-zionists who are not anti-semitic, which is something that exists in not insignificant numbers in the European left.
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Anti-Semitism drives record-high Western European immigration to Israel
- Thread starter Crash Station
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If you look at the follow-up posts between the two of us, he elaborated that he meant that people call themselves anti-Zionists while holding views like Jews control the international banking system or control the American government.
So you're kind of proving my point here if you actually read all of that and agreed that those people are just "anti-Zionist" unironically.
More Fun To Compute
Member
The question is maybe does commentary against Zionism itself give people the idea that they have permission to beat up Jews outside English synagogues or kill them in French supermarkets. It seems unlikely. That sort of extremism is more insular and I don't think cares what some 18 yo white prick at a college in the USA thinks when he rants against Zionism after watching some Chomsky clip on youtube.
Starsailor
Banned
i live in france and i can assure you that all the media fear is bullshit.
I can assure you that jew are safe in our country.
Media need to stop overreacting on silly things and making it a huge thing
HUELEN10
Member
I don't see how family members being spat on and having rocks thrown on them, is a media overreaction.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
There's more to security than just not being physically attacked.
Starsailor
Banned
In France? I didn't saw that on the news, in fact i don't believe in mass media anymore.
In our country media take little subject and make them HUUUGE so that's create more hate because you spend time to spotlight those assholes antisemites .
One guy said "we need to stop wearing the kippa"
What the fuck?
I'm sorry but that dude with 15 years old could be really happy now to see this rabbi saying that, he didn't ask so much!
The reality is that the rabbi told that to take the blanket on the media and "playing crying".
WE in france respect everyone and every religion. Nobody is perfect okay we need to improve in many ways, but i don't belive media in France at all who spend time on silly subject.
Just arrest those asshole and don't make a debate about that.
Because it made you fear to go to France, which again (and pardon my language) is fucking crazy.
I don't mean to offend, but for real, it's a tiny tiny tiny tiny risk, it makes zero sense to make decisions based on it, regardless of what happened to your aunt.
The media makes it look like it's something you should be worry about, and yeah, that's an overreaction to the risk that Jews in Europe face.
For real man, stop living in fear, go to France it's a great country with mostly great people.
Starsailor
Banned
This!
Make the spotlight about the action of ONE SILLY fuc**** asshole child in one city, making the BELIEVE with that , that NO ONE , NO JEWS are safe in France, it's bullshit.
You make a snowball with a little action. Media do that all the time, they don't spend time to real subject!
They can explain that ISIS is losing because IT'S TRUE, BUT NO FEAR FEAR again!
I think that a lot of people adopt anti-semitic views under the guise of anti-zionist views because it is socially acceptable.
Next time you meet an anti-zionist and he talks about the palestinians, ask him which side of the palestinians he is talking about. Because from my experience most of them are just parroting what they have read on social media and have no clue what they are talking about. For example they don't know that the palestinians are split into 2 groups who are mortal enemies who had a civil war in 2006, and to this day have failed to reach a lasting agreement among themselves (there was an agreement in 2014, it expired within 6 months and the unity governemnt resigned in june 2015).
Having an informed anti-israeli opinion is one thing, parroting the views of anti-semitic propoganda under the guise of being "anti-israeli" is another.
Edit: Also, I have been in Paris a year ago, and I have been warned by many people not to wear any jewish symbols.
IdreamofHIME
Member
What a load of bullshit, talk about spreading FUD.
Starsailor
Banned
i'm kinda amazed to see some foreigners seeing France as a new "Nazi" country. You're far from the truth.
In fact now we don't believe in Le Pen anymore in 2017 it's trending between Hollande again or Alain Juppé.
In fact now we don't believe in Le Pen anymore in 2017 it's trending between Hollande again or Alain Juppé.
At least for my country, that is prevalent.
Don't trust Jeffrey Goldberg. Dude is a massive Zionist.
It's like you didn't read the article. Even in the US, despite being 2% or less of the population, 63% of religion based hate crimes happen against Jewish persons.
The issue is, Jews are not as safe compared to other religions/ethnicities in Europe, especially in countries like France. You can argue whether Israeli policies are good, bad all you want. But why is the 'Jew' in France attacked for what the government of Israel does? It's systemic antisemitism. I don't like to get personal, but one of my friends Muslim wife won't allow him to get Starbucks anymore, because 'they are run by Jews, support Israel' and they are born in Canada and are supposedly very liberal. This is the kind of anti semitism that is happening again in Europe and is pervasive in many countries. Jewish people become the scapegoat again.
It's not about being physically safe per se. It's about emigrating to a country which is a theocratic Jewish state, one where they aren't likely to get persecuted for their religion, or fear antisemitism.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
...because educated modern white people easily concluded they were the best of all humans and put jews first in line to die beefore africans and asians. This is history 101 nothing has killed more people than educated know everything , will to do what needs to be done, materialist assholes who think they can decide the worth of others while assuming the unassailable and supreme worth of themselves.
Don't kid yourself it's a tendancy of the human condition and has happened before, and before it was all said and done everyone else who cried and accused the white people that commited the crime joined in and did the same thing before the 20th century was done.
That's a little off. The Palestinians themselves are not split into two groups. In fact most support a unity government. There are two factions but they are really not mortal enemies.
Also what exactly is two Palestinians groups?
Again, Israel is by far the most dangerous country for Jews.
Also, while Jews might be not as safe as other religions ethnicities (not sure about that, it's VERY hard to get reliable data on these things and the reports that do come out tend to lump a whole lot of incidents together) but Jews as a whole still pretty damn safe in France.
It's a safe country.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
not true at all
It is true.
Jews in Israel are way more likely to die in anti Jewish/Israeli violence in Israel than in anywhere in Europe.
It's not even close.
Still waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more likely to die in a car accident in both countries though.
If every year, Jews are facing 2-3x increase of anti-semitic hate crimes, incidents, how are they necessarily safe? The question isn't whether they'd be physically safe today in France as opposed to Israel, it's whether 20 years from now, their kids, their property, their safety will still be guaranteed in France or in Israel. If synagogues in France need soldiers protecting the entrances, and Jews cannot wear their Yarmulkes for fear of being attacked, I wouldn't say it's a safe place.
I mean yes, Israel has its own safety concerns, especially with the recent knifings and terror attacks against civilians, but in terms of being safe from antisemitism I can see why they'd emigrate in large numbers.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
They're not hated by those they walk with and live with. They don't have to worry about anti-semitic crimes within the confines of their own land. Their kids are less likely to experience hate crimes for being Jews. Just because they're more likely to die in a car accident than a hate crime doesn't mean that one is more welcoming for Jews than the other.
First of all, hate crimes do not double every year, again, it's hard to get accurate data on these things, but even if you seen such jump there is no such trends and no reason to believe that the level of violence would double or even tripled every year (in fact, there is every reason to believe it wouldn't happen because seriously, plot the numbers).
Now is it possible that France would become a really dangerous place for Jews?
Sure.
But the fact remains that right now Israel is still way more dangerous place for Jews (though again, not particularly dangerous in the grand scheme of things) and it's not exactly trending into peace and security either.
Come on now, most french people don't hate Jews, and while I don't think worrying all that much about that type of violence is something you should do (it's just not that big of a risk statistically) but if you are that type of person, remember that you're way more likely to die from terrorism in Israel than in france.
Also, there are a whole lot of Palestinians that hate Israeli Jews in Israel, now it's true, most of them don't have basic human rights, but still.
Dude, I have probably walked by you at one point in time.
It's their thing? Fucking hell.
LyleLanley
Banned
Everything about this post is hilarious.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Hahah... I am a Muslim and France seem so unfriendly nowadays... Especially since the last terrorist attack in there. I know there are many people there that do not succumb to the narrative of "Muslims = Bad People" but yeah...
Even England seem kind of unfriendly nowadays towards Muslims so hmm.
It's funny how we are right at the opposite end (well not really but most people tend to think Muslims/Jew at the opposite end) and yet our worries are the same and due to the same thing, heh.
lol what? You must have read some godawful newspapers to think that about England
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Since Belgium came up I'm fairly certain we're talking about some very specific people, who are hardcore Orthodox Jews with the complete dress code that comes with it. It's likely the older people already considered emigrating to Israel for a while, particularly because youth in general is far less interested in traditions than older generations. I do imagine that the dress code also means they are the most likely to experience an increase in anti-Semitism though, since it's a highly visual distinction. Similar with traditional Muslims in that sense.
And even if they might cite anti-Semitism as a reason for moving, that doesn't mean that's really the trigger for it. For one, if safety is your biggest concern, your best bet is Canada or a US state with proper gun control laws (which is currently holding at 0, so Canada it is). An orthodox Jew wanting a deeper sense of belonging has to go with Israel though, since you would still be 'the odd one out' in North-America. I can appreciate that as a reason, and they wouldn't have to be Zionists for it either. Also you don't have to deal with yearly snowmageddon in Israel.
And even if they might cite anti-Semitism as a reason for moving, that doesn't mean that's really the trigger for it. For one, if safety is your biggest concern, your best bet is Canada or a US state with proper gun control laws (which is currently holding at 0, so Canada it is). An orthodox Jew wanting a deeper sense of belonging has to go with Israel though, since you would still be 'the odd one out' in North-America. I can appreciate that as a reason, and they wouldn't have to be Zionists for it either. Also you don't have to deal with yearly snowmageddon in Israel.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
I thought Anti-Semitism was semi wiped out in the West given its suicidal side effects. If you're an anti semite you can kiss your public image good bye.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
If you are visibly Jewish in England, you are likely to get some unpleasant comments in certain parts of certain cities. You are likely to face some degree of prejudice at certain universities. But the number of attacks, while still concerning of course, should not put you off visiting if you are yourself visibly Jewish.
What I find at least mildly concerning is that nowadays the left seems not very concerned with anti-Semitism, particularly in comparison to Islamophobia. Even in America there are proportionally more violent incidents where the victim's religion was what made them a target against Jews than Muslims, but I don't think you would notice that from the way crime is reported or, for example, protested against by university students and other activists.
What I find at least mildly concerning is that nowadays the left seems not very concerned with anti-Semitism, particularly in comparison to Islamophobia. Even in America there are proportionally more violent incidents where the victim's religion was what made them a target against Jews than Muslims, but I don't think you would notice that from the way crime is reported or, for example, protested against by university students and other activists.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
really...
Gotta wait for Bernie to become President before we can proclaim that.
Western European right wing xenophobic/racist parties had mostly moved away from anti-semitism to anti muslim/anti darkies position (I know technically most of the muslims in Europe are semitic people, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about here).
This in part because as you said, after the holocaust anti-semitism had become really unpopular (and in some countries illegal) and because there are just much more muslim immigrants in Europe these days.
But I'm sure there are quite a few people in Europe who still hate Jews.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
That's not a rational fear. Not even close.
In the Atlantic article I linked earlier in the thread, Marine Le Pen was interviewed and was actually talking up the Jews as opposed to Muslims, in a model minority vs undesirable minority sort of way, which is somewhat amusing considering her father's politics.
I don't even know if UKIP has much to say on the subject, although I've occasionally heard shady comments from far-left British politicians.
Yeah, also a lot of them think of Jews as natural allies in what they see as a fight against Islam.
It's the same crap though, blame those of looks/act different than you for your troubles, it's just more effective to do that when the target is muslims these days. I have little doubt that people like Marine Le Pen would go all out anti-Jewish if that was politically expedient to her.
Factions is probably the better word. The Fatah who are in control of the west bank and the Hamas who are controlling Gaza. Currently the Hamas is trying to take over the west bank as well and the Fatah are trying to stop that.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/pa-arrests-scores-hamas-members-west-bank-150704070359333.html
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. My point was that a lot of the people who call themselves "anti-zionists" or "anti-israeli" don't actually know anything about the state of afairs in the middle east and just use it as an excuse to hate someone, in this case jews who aren't even israeli or zionists.
Neko Mimi Mode
Member
Time for a personal story.
I remember the day that, following discussions with the police, the Rabbi of our community warned it was unsafe and therefore forbidden by Jewish law to identify publicly as a Jew in the UK outside of a few select areas. About six years ago now.
I, of course, didn't listen. Then I met antisemitism face to face. First, one day coming out of Synagogue, a friend and I were accosted by two Muslims who said it was about time someone did something about the Jews to "save Gaza". We protested it had nothing to do with us, but ultimately had to flee back to the confines of the Synagogue.
I started noticing more and more people were looking, staring, glaring on the streets, the buses, the shops. One day my father and I were spit on and cursed in a mall in Glasgow and I realised it was time to stop looking Jewish.
The rest of the community followed suit, except the Rabbi of course. That is, until one night he was assaulted in the streets. Punched once he crumpled and was left on the ground as his assailant ran off yelling Allah hu ackbar. The Rabbi moved within the month.
Today we both live in Israel. You guys don't understand but there's nowhere like it. The freedom to just be who I am. Nobody looks at me funny. I'm not a problem, or even a question. Israel actually wants me.
I went back to London for the first time last year. My then heavily pregnant wife and I got off the tube near the Emirates stadium and within 5 minutes a Muslim driver yelled " fucking Jews!" out the window at us. I miss London and my wife, a Manc, is still the biggest Citizen you'll see. But we can't go back, there's nothing there for us in Europe any more. Ask any Jew and he'll tell you the same.
I remember the day that, following discussions with the police, the Rabbi of our community warned it was unsafe and therefore forbidden by Jewish law to identify publicly as a Jew in the UK outside of a few select areas. About six years ago now.
I, of course, didn't listen. Then I met antisemitism face to face. First, one day coming out of Synagogue, a friend and I were accosted by two Muslims who said it was about time someone did something about the Jews to "save Gaza". We protested it had nothing to do with us, but ultimately had to flee back to the confines of the Synagogue.
I started noticing more and more people were looking, staring, glaring on the streets, the buses, the shops. One day my father and I were spit on and cursed in a mall in Glasgow and I realised it was time to stop looking Jewish.
The rest of the community followed suit, except the Rabbi of course. That is, until one night he was assaulted in the streets. Punched once he crumpled and was left on the ground as his assailant ran off yelling Allah hu ackbar. The Rabbi moved within the month.
Today we both live in Israel. You guys don't understand but there's nowhere like it. The freedom to just be who I am. Nobody looks at me funny. I'm not a problem, or even a question. Israel actually wants me.
I went back to London for the first time last year. My then heavily pregnant wife and I got off the tube near the Emirates stadium and within 5 minutes a Muslim driver yelled " fucking Jews!" out the window at us. I miss London and my wife, a Manc, is still the biggest Citizen you'll see. But we can't go back, there's nothing there for us in Europe any more. Ask any Jew and he'll tell you the same.
Marauder Shields
Member
People like Mel Gibson still exist regardless of that, though.
vonStirlitz
Unconfirmed Member
Correlation does not equate to causation. Be careful with statistics and the value judgements which enfold them.
It seems to me that simple migration statistics are being aligned with certain qualitative data (which may well be true) in order to provide a range of implicit value judgments and cultural assertions, to create conflict, to direct discourse in a certain direction, and to keep certain discursive tropes alive.
Yes, Europe can be tough for many ethnicities and minorities, but so can Israel.
It seems to me that simple migration statistics are being aligned with certain qualitative data (which may well be true) in order to provide a range of implicit value judgments and cultural assertions, to create conflict, to direct discourse in a certain direction, and to keep certain discursive tropes alive.
Yes, Europe can be tough for many ethnicities and minorities, but so can Israel.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Well that doesn't sound at all like something an anti-semite would say!
Makes sense.
These immigrants will need lands, which will likely happen via illegal settlements.
I recall reading something that France tried to categorize any criticisms as Israel as "hate speech". I can't find the link anymore but I recall reading something like that somewhere. Maybe I am not remembering it correctly.
So feeling bad for Palestinains is "antisemitism" now?
petran79
Banned
Some years ago I was on the London Tube. A Jewish kid wearing traditional clothes sat near me. I noticed a guy (white English) was starring at the kid with a menacing look. Fortunately the kid did not notice him. I'd be scared if I were in the kids place!
No, but you have to question the motive of bringing up the hypothetical future plight of Palestinians in a thread that is about European Jewish emigration to Israel solely due to a massive increase in hate crimes and antisemitism against them.
If your sole comment is 'those poor Palestinians', it touches on the very point raised, that Jews around the world, especially in western Europe are blamed for the policies/actions of the government of Israel.
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