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[Morrie’s wig shop]

Let us know if you can go to Walmart or any B&M store and set up shop inside them selling your goods without paying rent.

This is really good analogy. It’s basically what Sweeney wants is to set up shop without paying rent.

Maybe if apple set up a monthly fee instead of each game sold….. nahh that probably wouldn’t work.

 

[phil_t98]

So you're against that option being enabled because you care about the Apple developers? Enabling the option doesn't just open the floodgates of scamming. It's still a rather techincally-minded thing to sideload an app or download it from a different store. Hell, I very rarely do that on my Android phone. 99% of my apps are from the Google Play store. I'd wager that even then I'm in the minority, and most users only use the app store. But the option to not is there, and that's what I'm talking about. Options to use your device as you see fit. I will always fight for that.

Security wise, I'd argue we have more data stored on our computers / (mac & PC) that both allow apps from outside their respective 'stores' -- and anything that handles that data is held to a certain compliance standard. You're far more likely that fall for a phishing attempt in your email than to go find an app outside the app store, allow the install, install and configure that data, and then put in your CC info or any other sensitive data and get compromised.

I suppose next you'll say Apple shouldn't allow RCS since 'iMessage is available' and it's a 'choice' not to use an iPhone for iMessage? Apple has a history of forcing you to use THEIR stuff (propriety chargers, proprietary dongles, removing the headphone jack in an effort to sell airpods) -- it's all because they want you to buy their products, and spend more money in their stores. Unless you earnestly believe all of those things are for the 'safety' of the end user and not at all because it helps pad their bottom line in this capitalist hellscape we live in.

so why Samsung remove the headphone jack then?

also apple game you the solution for the headphone jack in the box with the iPhone. they gave you the lightening to headphone jack in the box.

we have differing views on this its as simple as that, am not right and you not wrong. each to their own

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

This is really good analogy. It’s basically what Sweeney wants is to set up shop without paying rent.

Maybe if apple set up a monthly fee instead of each game sold….. nahh that probably wouldn’t work.

Monthly fee would kill any small sellers. Basically the entire point is that if you don't want to pay Apple 30% then don't go on Apple. I don't undestand why it is suddenly fine to for a storefront to accept any seller with no power to reject them.

The fact is you know the rules when you buy Apple, the same as you know the laws when you land at Singapore. To not like Apple's rules is just too bad, then use your purchasing power to not buy Apple and use something else. Don't land at Singapore with a kilogram of cannabis and then complain that they are going to execute you.

You made a bad choice and bought hardware that isn't what you want. The response shouldn't be "I will change Apple so I can keep my iphone". Just dump your bloody iphone!

 

[BeardGawd]

Not really one to want to agree with Apple on this one, but at the same time...Epic's argument always seemed like bull shit to me. Being on iOS devices was never a right, you either wanted to be on there and let them take their cut, or you didn't want to do that. It was their choice. It's a closed system, what made them think they had any right to debate it. They aren't forced to be on there.

Imagine if your Internet Provider (that you pay for) only allowed you to go to sites they approve of. Not only that they take a 30% tax on everything you purchase. That's what this is. It's unfair to the other businesses but it's also unfair to the consumers too.

This obviously needs to be addressed.

 

[phil_t98]

Imagine if your Internet Provider (that you pay for) only allowed you to go to sites they approve of. Not only that they take a 30% tax on everything you purchase. That's what this is. It's unfair to the other businesses but it's also unfair to the consumers too.

This obviously needs to be addressed.

that's a bad analogy really , the best is the console stores which take 30% same as apple and same as google

but using your analogy you don't use that internet provider you use somebody else

 

[BeardGawd]

that's a bad analogy really , the best is the console stores which take 30% same as apple and same as google

Nah the analogy works. They are Gatekeepers.

but using your analogy you don't use that internet provider you use somebody else

People really need to stop using this argument. "Well if you don't like it then leave!" Yes let's just always stick with the status quo and never push for change! Just because someone likes their iPhone as a whole doesn't mean they approve of this bullshit. The courts and regulatory bodies wouldn't be looking at this if people kept quiet.

 

[ReBurn]

well if you side load then it opens up the operating system to viruses and malware, things like that. also with having an App Store like apple it guarantees the quality of the content on there, standards are met. the question could be raised in future why can't we side load on consoles next? its a similar type of store.

Literally every version of iOS has had security issues that leave Apple devices subject to attack. Their App Store process doesn't prevent someone from compromising your device. Their app verification process will test that apps are not trying to exploit known vulnerabilities but it can't test for the ones they don't know about. Safari on iOS is a constant attack vector and is commonly used to compromise devices.

It also doesn't ensure that apps are high quality. It's a largely automated process meant to ensure that apps don't break developer rules, such as bypassing Apple's purchase API or using non-Apple browsers (irony). Terrible apps release every day.

 

[Mattyp]

It depends on how the sideloading is implemented.


You can either believe Apples marketing about its supposedly superior security, or you can believe Apples Anti Fraud Engineering head who says otherwise:

Apple engineer likened App Store security to ‘butter knife in gunfight’

Revelation part of legal documents released by Epic Games ahead of antitrust trial

www.ft.com

Apple´s Security through obscurity has never worked and is just an illusion of security - see all the various scandals and hacks.
And no, Android isnt better, as due to its openess its an easier target.

How about we bring up privacy for once? Apps going through the App Store have to adhere to a strict Apple policy on user privacy and mining of user information it’s black and white.

What do you think happens when Instagram Facebook etc start allowing direct downloads not adhering to apples guidelines on what information can be collected? People worry about TikTok now wait until they don’t have to adhere to Apples privacy policy.

“oh but don’t use those social apps and other trash!”

Don’t use an iPhone then. Same EU peddled bullshit everytime they find themselves so far behind the 8ball in tech they continue to try and implement their will on American and Asian countries for whatever bizarre reason with their new AI rulings about to cripple them yet again.

Remind me in 5 years time when they start putting sanctions on chatgpt12

iPhones are vastly more secure than an android device there’s no reason to try and downplay that, what can you do with a passcode locked iOS device? Nothing at all.

 

[Skifi28]

Darn it, I can't decide which of the two companies I dislike the most.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Nah the analogy works. They are Gatekeepers.

People really need to stop using this argument. "Well if you don't like it then leave!" Yes let's just always stick with the status quo and never push for change! Just because someone likes their iPhone as a whole doesn't mean they approve of this bullshit. The courts and regulatory bodies wouldn't be looking at this if people kept quiet.

If you refuse to change phones then you lose your right as a consumer to vote with your wallet. Apple will change only if people abandon them, the fact that their greatest haters refuse to leave is proof that Apple is right.

 

[Tams]

Not really one to want to agree with Apple on this one, but at the same time...Epic's argument always seemed like bull shit to me. Being on iOS devices was never a right, you either wanted to be on there and let them take their cut, or you didn't want to do that. It was their choice. It's a closed system, what made them think they had any right to debate it. They aren't forced to be on there.

Only, in the land of it not being too uncommon to lose contact with people because you don't use iMessage, if it really a choice for quite a few?

Not that it matters with the EU telling Apple to suck a fat one, and that's in a market that they don't have anything like a stranglehold.

 

[SportsFan581]

Apples lock on iOS stems from regulatory lag. Tablets and smart phones are general purpose computers by any reasonable definition. Lobbying and regulator ignorance have kept smart devices under the radar and regulated like old feature phones or toys. The EU has already caught up which is why side-loading and alternate payment systems and app stores are coming within the next year or so.

Forcing apple to open up is a good thing for consumers. IPhone owners happy with the status quo are free to continue enjoying the benefits of a closed ecosystem. Owners who want alternatives or to add features that apple refuses to allow now have the option without compromising the security of their device by jailbreaking. Companies can choose to offer their products directly to consumers without paying rent to apple instead of forcing users off device/into a browser to get a better price.

It depends on the blindness of the individuals involved. Apple created this device with a closed store, buyers purchased it with a closed store and are really fine with the closed store. The fact that The UK and EU are trying to take the benefits of a free market away from their respective citizens is beside the point for the most part. Unless Apple is proven to be using its position to limit the competition or to prop its own services up over competitors on its store, there isn't exactly grounds for taking any action.

The moves by the UK and the EU that you champion will have long term negative effects, IMO. My personal belief is that this is a slippery slope that the majority will regret supporting down the road.

At its heart the Epic suit isn't about a legitimate grievance with Apple it is just Epic not wanting to give the store its cut while still wanting the benefit of selling to its customers.

 

[ReBurn]

iPhones are vastly more secure than an android device there’s no reason to try and downplay that, what can you do with a passcode locked iOS device? Nothing at all.

iOS devices are not vastly more secure than Android devices, though. That's an illusion Apple has crafted that people buy into but in reality Apple has serious security vulnerabilities with nearly every version of iOS.

iOS 16.4 had a WebKit vulnerability that allowed specifically crafted web content to arbitrarily execute code on the device, leaving people vulnerable through web pages. And because Apple makes all iOS browsers use WebKit they made every browser vulnerable. But yeah, vastly more secure.

 

[darrylgorn]

If we could get Mark Rein to make a salty tweet about two iPhones duct taped together, that would be the icing on the cake.

 

[Lasha]

It depends on the blindness of the individuals involved. Apple created this device with a closed store, buyers purchased it with a closed store and are really fine with the closed store. The fact that The UK and EU are trying to take the benefits of a free market away from their respective citizens is beside the point for the most part. Unless Apple is proven to be using its position to limit the competition or to prop its own services up over competitors on its store, there isn't exactly grounds for taking any action.

The moves by the UK and the EU that you champion will have long term negative effects, IMO. My personal belief is that this is a slippery slope that the majority will regret supporting down the road.

At its heart the Epic suit isn't about a legitimate grievance with Apple it is just Epic not wanting to give the store its cut while still wanting the benefit of selling to its customers.

What negative effects will the legislation have? I am also unclear as to your logic that options are being taken away. Users are free to stay within the app store if they so choose. I'm struggling to understand how more options results in a less free market.

The question is why is apple entitled to a cut of anything if a developer provides its own CDN, billing system, and application servers? Apple doesn't get a cut of all software sold on Mac. Microsoft doesn't get a cut of all software sold on Windows. What economic benefit is there in a major corporation being allowed to be a gatekeeper for devices which have replaced traditional computers for many people?

 

[Mattyp]

iOS devices are not vastly more secure than Android devices, though. That's an illusion Apple has crafted that people buy into but in reality Apple has serious security vulnerabilities with nearly every version of iOS.

iOS 16.4 had a WebKit vulnerability that allowed specifically crafted web content to arbitrarily execute code on the device, leaving people vulnerable through web pages. And because Apple makes all iOS browsers use WebKit they made every browser vulnerable. But yeah, vastly more secure.

We’re talking one vulnerability that has to be executed through a compromised or dummy website the end user visits or is phished into using.
Is that exploit still active right now?
Do we want to bring up the current vulnerability list of chrome and how much more prevalent malware is on android if we want to create list wars?

Or we can just skip all that and you just tell me how I break into a locked Apple device like my original comment.

 

[SportsFan581]

What negative effects will the legislation have? I am also unclear as to your logic that options are being taken away. Users are free to stay within the app store if they so choose. I'm struggling to understand how more options results in a less free market.

The question is why is apple entitled to a cut of anything if a developer provides its own CDN, billing system, and application servers? Apple doesn't get a cut of all software sold on Mac. Microsoft doesn't get a cut of all software sold on Windows. What economic benefit is there in a major corporation being allowed to be a gatekeeper for devices which have replaced traditional computers for many people?

A major component of a free market is the ability for vendors to produce the products of their choosing at the price points of their choosing with the ability to allow those products to compete openly in the market, as is the ability for stores to operate as they choose. Those are probably the most important aspects of a free market.

Unless Apple is found to be using the popularity of Apple to hurt Android, I don't see it.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

How about we bring up privacy for once? Apps going through the App Store have to adhere to a strict Apple policy on user privacy and mining of user information it’s black and white.
What do you think happens when Instagram Facebook etc start allowing direct downloads not adhering to apples guidelines on what information can be collected? People worry about TikTok now wait until they don’t have to adhere to Apples privacy policy.

Why would I bring up privacy when the GDPR exists in the EU?
It is valid for both Android and iOS and every company you mentioned, so nothing that applies purely to Apple and makes them special.

“oh but don’t use those social apps and other trash!”

Don’t use an iPhone then. Same EU peddled bullshit everytime they find themselves so far behind the 8ball in tech they continue to try and implement their will on American and Asian countries for whatever bizarre reason with their new AI rulings about to cripple them yet again.

"EU peddled bullshit" - awww did the EU hurt your precious Apple religion?
It is not the EU that is behind on data protection, its the US. Even California where all those tech companies are located realized that and they now try to do something similar to the GDPR.

Remind me in 5 years time when they start putting sanctions on chatgpt12
iPhones are vastly more secure than an android device there’s no reason to try and downplay that, what can you do with a passcode locked iOS device? Nothing at all.

Believe whatever you want

 

[lordrand11]

Fuck Apple and there Closed Garden.

#TeamSweeney

To be fair I agree with this, though with Epic locking down timed exclusivities on PC I think their argument is a bunch of horseshit, same with Sony and their exclusivities with TPDs, or Microsoft and their exclusivities with TPDs

 

[ReBurn]

We’re talking one vulnerability that has to be executed through a compromised or dummy website the end user visits or is phished into using.
Is that exploit still active right now?
Do we want to bring up the current vulnerability list of chrome and how much more prevalent malware is on android if we want to create list wars?

Or we can just skip all that and you just tell me how I break into a locked Apple device like my original comment.

We're not talking one vulnerability. We know from the jailbreaking and hacking scenes that there are typically many iOS vulnerabilities in play at any one time that Apple does not seem to know about. Apple typically only disclose the ones they do know about when they release a fix and that makes people believe that it's the only one out there.

If it makes you sleep better at night to believe that iOS is a secure bunker that keeps you safe then it's fine. The thousands of CVE's for iOS over the years didn't actually exist. It was just a one time thing.

 

[Lasha]

A major component of a free market is the ability for vendors to produce the products of their choosing at the price points of their choosing with the ability to allow those products to compete openly in the market, as is the ability for stores to operate as they choose. Those are probably the most important aspects of a free market.

Unless Apple is found to be using the popularity of Apple to hurt Android, I don't see it.

So then why do you support gatekeeping of customers and the taking of economic rent by tech companies? The latter being antithetical to a free market all the way back to Adam Smith. Do you think that Microsoft should not have been sued for anti-trust violations 20 years ago as well?

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

So then why do you support gatekeeping of customers and the taking of economic rent by tech companies? The latter being antithetical to a free market all the way back to Adam Smith. Do you think that Microsoft should not have been sued for anti-trust violations 20 years ago as well?

Rent is not against the free market as long as people have real alternatives. Iphone is just one choice of phone. People are free to make the wrong choice and buy an iphone and suffer, that is their money to waste. Free Market require that consumers make their choice in what to spend things on, and if they refuse to stop buying Apple products then clearly Apple is doing the right thing,

 

[X-Wing]

Don't buy iPhones then.

No, really, don't buy iphones. Or macs. Most of their sales strategy just revolves around branding, aka tricking you into thinking their products are worth the high prices they charge for.

Their products are worth the price.

 

[Lasha]

Rent is not against the free market as long as people have real alternatives. Iphone is just one choice of phone. People are free to make the wrong choice and buy an iphone and suffer, that is their money to waste. Free Market require that consumers make their choice in what to spend things on, and if they refuse to stop buying Apple products then clearly Apple is doing the right thing,

What real alternatives do people have? Developers have to go on iOS or Android and take the terms of Apple and Google if they want to reach the market. Consumers have to buy and android or apple phone and use the app stores to perform basic productivity and life tasks. The mental gymnasitcs you guys are going through to disagree with something which objectively benefits everybody is tiresome.

 

[onnextflix5]

Well side loading is coming later this year, there is likely to be heavy restrictions, so expect epic to go back to the Courts soon lol

 

[SportsFan581]

So then why do you support gatekeeping of customers and the taking of economic rent by tech companies? The latter being antithetical to a free market all the way back to Adam Smith. Do you think that Microsoft should not have been sued for anti-trust violations 20 years ago as well?

The UK Anti-trust against MS was foolish in my opinion, yes. I don't see why MS had to put a browser picker screen on the OS when users that wanted a different browser could have used explorer one time to download one, and if competing browsers were afraid that users didn't know they existed that's on them for lack of advertising.

The US Anti-trust against MS was largely warranted. MS was abusing its position there to hurt rival software companies by dictating what could be bundled with prebuilt systems. That's basically Anti-Trust 101, similar to Apple demanding that any app on its store not appear on Android or providing financial incentives to that effect (pay 30% if its apple exclusive, but 50% if it is also available on Android, etc.).

Apple built a product with a closed store ecosystem that was built on the idea of earning revenue from their cut of the store. People bought said product. People can choose to buy different products or use different compute devices, they are willingly choosing Apple even with its limitations.

Apple is a company that operates within the free market, Apple's storefront shouldn't need to be itself a free market. The same as Walmart operates in the free market, but inside the walls of the store it isn't a free market, it's Walmart's market.

 

[twilo99]

Apple will continue to dominate in gaming revenue ..

 

[Magic Carpet]

Epic Phone
The Unreal Phone
uPhone
PhoneNite

 

[Kdad]

Apple will continue to dominate in gaming revenue ..

Code for sad day to backdoor Tencent.

 

[Demigod Mac]

Valve must be breathing a sigh of relief at this development.

 

[Topher]

Valve must be breathing a sigh of relief at this development.

Why?

 

[Demigod Mac]

Why?

If it had gone in Epic's favor, I could see someone suing Valve and demand allowing 3rd party payments for direct buys on Steam content.

 

[Topher]

If it had gone in Epic's favor, I could see someone suing Valve and demand allowing 3rd party payments for direct buys on Steam content.

There are already multiple stores on PC. Not the same scenario at all

 

[RoboFu]

Fuck Apple and there Closed Garden.

#TeamSweeney

there is other phone makers/platforms out there.. why the hate? just go somewhere else..

 

[Same ol G]

Apple will continue to dominate in gaming revenue ..

Good for them.
I hate Apple with a passion but this was wrong from the beginning, this is the only correct outcome.
Let Epic make their own Epic phone if they want to compete.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Fuck Tim. If he could have a monopoly in the PC marketplace he’d do it in a heartbeat.

how?

 

[Bernoulli]

Good for them.
I hate Apple with a passion but this was wrong from the beginning, this is the only correct outcome.
Let Epic make their own Epic phone if they want to compete.

Finally the Epic store is coming in march
Fuck Apple

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Apple is right. And so is any eco-system owner. If suppliers dont like it, then sell it elsewhere on your own. Nothing stops someone from selling direct from their own website.

Just imagine is someone listed products on Amazon, but then said in the description to go to a different site where you can buy it cheaper. Amazon will say adios amigo!

 

[Same ol G]

Finally the Epic store is coming in march
Fuck Apple

I'm sorry but where does it say that they can release their epic store on Iphone.
At least they can use sideloading in the EU but this was about the US

Also, quite disgusting how Sweeney tries to get other developers to advertise outside the store.
I hate it when people try to influence other people like this, if you wanna jump off a bridge you go by yourself.

 

[Bernoulli]

I'm sorry but where does it say that they can release their epic store on Iphone.

At least they can use sideloading in the EU but this was about the US

Starting march they can in EU
They lost the case but there's other cases in the US about this

 

[Same ol G]

Starting march they can in EU
They lost the case but there's other cases in the US about this

well good luck to them, i don't agree what Epic tries to push trough so honestly i hope they also lose those cases.

 

[Bernoulli]

well good luck to them, i don't agree what Epic tries to push trough so honestly i hope they also lose those cases.

I fully support Epic on this
IPHONE should be able to sideload apps just like you can on MAC OS

 

[Three]

It's bizarre that Google lost their case in the US even though other stores and sideloading are allowed but somehow Apple won their case in the US. What were the differences?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Apple will continue to dominate in gaming revenue ..

Get fucked Tim you goddamn freak.

 

[Bernoulli]

It's bizarre that Google lost their case in the US even though other stores and sideloading are allowed but somehow Apple won their case in the US. What were the differences?

 

[Magic Carpet]

Can't wait for cheaper food stalls inside Euro Disney. Side load those food stalls.

 

[Shut0wen]

Don't buy iPhones then.

No, really, don't buy iphones. Or macs. Most of their sales strategy just revolves around branding, aka tricking you into thinking their products are worth the high prices they charge for.

Ive never really been into apple, last apple product ive owned was an ipod gen 4 but lets be real here apples products are pretty sturdy compared to samsung and google phones though

 

[Cyberpunkd]

In the end it's probably not going to matter considering the EU's digital marketing act. It's only a matter of time before Apple has to loosen its grip on the iOS app ecosystem.

This.

Apple: *wins*

EU:

 

[Kadve]

It's bizarre that Google lost their case in the US even though other stores and sideloading are allowed but somehow Apple won their case in the US. What were the differences?

The guardian has an interesting article. It basically boils down to Apple being completely open about their goals regarding iOS and the App store (its ours and we do what we want with it!) while Google's Play store policy is completely at odds with their otherwise open-system idea regarding Android. Their defence also proved very lackluster compared to Apple.

The curious case of Epic Games: how the developer beat Google but not Apple

The Fortnite maker filed antitrust suits against both tech companies – while one emerged victorious, the other was found at fault on 11 claims

www.theguardian.com

 

[StereoVsn]

I'm sorry but where does it say that they can release their epic store on Iphone.
At least they can use sideloading in the EU but this was about the US

Also, quite disgusting how Sweeney tries to get other developers to advertise outside the store.
I hate it when people try to influence other people like this, if you wanna jump off a bridge you go by yourself.

One big issue is with security with these random apps or 3rd party stores (allowed in EU now).

I don’t trust Epic not to f up their security protection.