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[Marty Chinn]

.

What, does the same principle not apply? It just seemed silly at the time to call him out on Microsoft's official numbers and how you shouldn't trust it yet people were putting blind faith in Apple's. I don't see how I wasn't responding specifically to his discussion has anything to do with the principle involved.

 

[Suitcase Test]

Market cap is how companies are valued, right? So it's not exactly what you would measure their size in. Simple revenue would probably say more, in which case Apple definitely isn't the biggest. HP, IBM, Sony and even Nokia are the bigger companies there.

Then again, I'm not an expert. However, if Microsoft has higher revenue, a higher operating income, and a higher net income, I'd say they are bigger. Meh.

 

[Axion22]

Fighting the good fight eh? Come now, stand down.

There's no fight. I picked a poor time to pick a point of contention. I'm a happy iPhone 4 user who's going to get a free bumper. Now, on with the thread and sorry for the pointless derail.

 

[Sullichin]

Apple implied the same thing happens on every phone include the 3GS, yet check this:

Oh, ok. Wasn't sure what you were referring to.

But here's a video from 2 years ago showing the iPhone 3G losing signal depending on how it's held:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ0NkLqh3nU&feature=related

The problem is much more obvious with the iPhone 4 because you can show someone exactly where to touch it to induce signal loss. It's easier to make the conclusion that the reception degraded because you are holding it a certain way. Apple isn't going to admit that the problem is a little worse on their new phone

 

[scotcheggz]

Why not just take the iPhone with the free case? It's all good, baby!

I dunno, I sort of felt that if I was spending that much money on something it should just work without the need to add a case to it. Some might say that this logic is a bit silly, and maybe it is, but that's just the way it seemed to me at the time.

I'll definitely be keeping close eyes on the next iteration, because aside from this debacle, it seems like it has some great features and in terms of looks, nothing comes close IMO and as much as I hate it, having high profile, good looking shit is pretty important as a freelancer. Worst aspect of the job.

 

[Axion22]

I dunno, I sort of felt that if I was spending that much money on something it should just work without the need to add a case to it.

Now, all disclaimers in effect here: no personal stake, spend your money how you want, etc.

They didn't really say that you need the case for it to work.

It was more like "look, here's this issue, it's really not that big of a deal as this data shows, it's still kind of embarrassing, so here's a free case to get rid of that issue entirely."

And you can take it back if you don't like it, so you do have the option of test driving it and taking it back if the issue affects you.

 

[Sullichin]

I dunno, I sort of felt that if I was spending that much money on something it should just work without the need to add a case to it. Some might say that this logic is a bit silly, and maybe it is, but that's just the way it seemed to me at the time.

your logic is not silly. The phone should work without a case. It does.

 

[Nobby]

Sorry if this has been discussed, but anyone else think a slight change in the hardware is coming sept. 30?

 

[Jzero]

woo free case -_-

 

[Vic]

woo free case -_-

woo dat ass

 

[dextran]

Does this mean the reports of updated units were a hoax? The extra coating and more prominent prox sensor. I wish they asked that at qa. Nothing stopping apple doing a stealth update without a trade in offer.

 

[DSK123]

I wonder if when Mr Jobs was a child the excuse of "But Mom, all the other kids are doing it!" worked. I know I never got away with it.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Sorry if this has been discussed, but anyone else think a slight change in the hardware is coming sept. 30?

I think it's coming later this month with the white.

Can only wait and see.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

Why not just take the iPhone with the free case? It's all good, baby!

This is madness.
A free case is better than nothing, but it absolutely in no way is "all good."

• The bumpers are ugly
• You can't use normal headphones
• Many docks and accessories won't fit

Just to list the few that I could come up with off the top of my head.

 

[expy]

Missed the bench background between his arms. =(

 

[teh_pwn]

Market cap is how companies are valued, right? So it's not exactly what you would measure their size in. Simple revenue would probably say more, in which case Apple definitely isn't the biggest. HP, IBM, Sony and even Nokia are the bigger companies there.

Then again, I'm not an expert. However, if Microsoft has higher revenue, a higher operating income, and a higher net income, I'd say they are bigger. Meh.

Market cap is the size of the company. Basically share volume * price per share.

Valuing a company can mean a few things. I'm mostly a long term index investor, so a person stronger in short term fundamentals can expand/correct me...One way to consider a stock valuable is their price/earnings ratio. Generally a P/E of 14 or lower is considered value, and above 18 is growth.

Stocks tend to become growth when there's a general market belief that the company's earnings is going to grow. So Apple's P/E is 21.21, which is modestly high. Not too bad. But what this means is that on average investors expect Apple to both maintain their current profit margins and to grow a moderately. (In my opinion, this is a crazy expectation.)

So this perception of a stock's future worth makes the market cap volatile. If Apple were to miss it's earnings and a competitor were to take some of it's market share, both the current earnings of Apple would go down and the general market consensus that Apple would grow. So the P/E before price correction would go up to 30-40, and if perception was that Apple was no longer going to grow, you could see Apple's stock halve within a matter of a few months. This is pretty typical of hyped growth stocks...remember the .COM recession around 2000? Lots of tech stocks did this. In this scenario, Apple's market cap would also half, because of the way it's equal to price*#of shares.

 

[Gary Whitta]

This is madness.
A free case is better than nothing, but it absolutely in no way is "all good."

• The bumpers are ugly
• You can't use normal headphones
• Many docks and accessories won't fit

Just to list the few that I could come up with off the top of my head.

See you if you can come up with some better ones then because all the ones you listed are irrelevant since Apple is giving people a choice of cases, not just a bumper.

 

[ghst]

See you if you can come up with some better ones then because all the ones you listed are irrelevant since Apple is giving people a choice of cases, not just a bumper.

• the phone has a major design flaw

 

[Gary Whitta]

[*]the phone has a major design flaw

That's not the point being argued, it's the viability of a (free) case as a solution.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

Well, we'll have to see exactly what cases they're going to offer.. but it would have to be the classiest case ever made to get me to change my tune.

It's a nice gesture for sure, but it's not a real solution.

 

[ghst]

That's not the point being argued, it's the viability of a (free) case as a solution.

no, it's not the point he argued, i came up with that all on my own.

it's all good, baby.

 

[Gary Whitta]

Well, we'll have to see exactly what cases they're going to offer.. but it would have to be the classiest case ever made to get me to change my tune.

It's a nice gesture for sure, but it's not a real solution.

I'm usually not a fan of cases, I rarely had one on any of my previous iPhones. But in the case of the 4 the extra thin-ness of the phone couple with the flatter design actually make it quite tricky to hold "naked". I'm constantly thinking I'm going to drop it. The bumper makes it a much more comfortable fit in the hand. I do prefer the bumper-less look though.

 

[zou]

Far smaller user base means far fewer people having a problem and far less outcry, even if the percentage of users having a problem is the same. Also less "sexy" companies means less media interest in the problem.

I remember seeing several YouTube videos of bar droppage on Android and other phones though, old ones that people started linking to after the iPhone 4 problem emerged.

Keep telling yourself that. Nevermind the fact that there's more Bold 9700s than there is iphone 4s.

The reason you don't see people bitching about it is the same reason you don't see people complain about previous iphone versions. If you hold any other phones the way steve tells you not to, not much will happen as you won't completely cover the antenna. The only way to not totally cover the antenna is to not hold the phone as it comes naturally to most people. While you can achieve the same effect with all other phones, there's really no way to cover the back of your phone with a flat hand and continue holding the phone in a comfortable position.

On the bright side, you can cover the whole back of your iphone and not lose a single bar, that's gotta account for something. So really, it's just an unfortunate design flaw on the user's end.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

If there's a quiet hardware fix, I have a problem with some needing a case. Even if it doesn't effect me.

But, everyone would have chose to accept the free case solution post conference. So, in a few months, a potential return of the bandaid debate doesn't have any legs to stand on. They wouldn't be obligated to replace.

 

[Gary Whitta]

Keep telling yourself that. Nevermind the fact that there's more Bold 9700s than there is iphone 4s.

Do you have sales figures for the 9700? I'm curious to know how many of that particular model are out in the wild.

 

[Why For?]

Why didn't they demonstrate the signal loss on the other phones live?

Pretty sure those vids were doctored.

I know people with ALL those phones, and none of them have that issue:lol

 

[Gary Whitta]

If there's a quiet hardware fix, I have a problem with some needing a case. Even if it doesn't effect me.

But, everyone would have chose to accept the free case solution post conference. So, in a few months, a potential return of the bandaid debate doesn't have any legs to stand on.

What I'd like to see is the bumper being just a temporary measure until the hardware is revised and THEN have Apple offer a free replacement plan. Otherwise yeah, people stuck with an iPhone that needs a case to operate optimally are going to feel pretty miffed once the improved model is released. Early adopters getting shafted again, although that feels a lot like the iPhone price-drop debacle which Apple did make amends for, so maybe they will offer something here too.

 

[Korey]

your logic is not silly. The phone should work without a case. It does*.

.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

Guess what, they have been working on a new phone and design... it is called iphone 5. Skip this generation if you don't like it and get the next one if you are having problems. I don't get it... who expects someone to redesign something that took years to design in one month just because they don't like it and someone showed them how to manipulate it so it doesn't work correctly. It's like people are 5 years olds and don't understand business, manufacturing, and engineering in the real world.

No one showed them how to manipulate it. I'm a lefty, I hold my 3gs that way by default.

 

[scorcho]

That's not the point being argued, it's the viability of a (free) case as a solution.

much like how Microsoft is justified in claiming that Vista and Windows 7 is just as secure as OS X because they can download a free anti-virus program to supplement their protection.

i completely agree!

i also agree that the echo chamber surrounding the signal attenuation problem is a factor of the sheer number of iPhones that have been sold, which parallels the idea that hackers too target Windows boxes for viruses and malware due to their massive market share. for both, the threats are over-hyped by a salacious press and grossly misrepresented by competitors.

that HTC, Nokia and all also face similar, unreported attenuation problems is relative to their lower sales; this also mirrors the lack of threat that desktop OSX users face in forms of viruses and malware.

it's good we can agree to these similar arguments.

 

[giga]

Why didn't they demonstrate the signal loss on the other phones live?

Pretty sure those vids were doctored.

I know people with ALL those phones, and none of them have that issue:lol

Because the signal attenuation issue only occurs in low signal areas and Cupertino's campus has a strong cell tower signal. Someone with an iPhone 4 at the Q&A asked why he wasn't getting any changes with a death grip.

The tests in the video were to demonstrate it in lower signal conditions. (You'll actually see that the iPhones only have 3 bars in the video thanks to its more stringent/accurate signal readings in 4.0.1)

1. Tests performed on commercially available mobile phones on carrier networks with cellular signal strength between -80 dBm and -90 dBm. Testing results will vary based on site conditions.

 

[Why For?]

Because the signal attenuation issue only occurs in low signal areas and Cupertino's campus has a strong cell tower signal. Someone with an iPhone 4 at the Q&A asked why he wasn't getting any changes with a death grip.

The tests in the video were to demonstrate it in lower signal conditions. (You'll actually see that the iPhones only have 3 bars in the video thanks to its more stringent/accurate signal readings in 4.0.1)

Well then maybe it really WONT be an issue in Australia with my netwrk since it's probably the second best network in the world.

Hope that's the case because I've never seen ANY Phone (including 3G and 3GS) have that issue.

So possibly my initial hunch was right and this was more an AT&T thing than it was an Apple thing.

 

[spwolf]

a fault in the design would be akin to telling everyone the 3GS is better than the 4, which it clearly is not. There's no way around this assumption if they said their brand new phone has a fault, so you are surprised they wouldn't sabotage their brand at a press conference?

They're providing bumpers for the low percentage of people who've reported problems. You expect them to tell the other 95% or whatever that haven't complained that they should stop being so ignorant and demand a refund?

Actually Jobs said that 4 drops more calls than 3GS, but of course downplayed it as irrelavant... problem is - iphone always had problems with dropping calls (and no, not just ATT, UK users have similar problems and I always had worse reception on my iphone)...

so new version, with supposedly revolutionary antena, actually has... more problems that before.

:lol


and i know many people who switched from iphone in states due to dropped calls of previous versions.

there is nothing to defend there. apple has bad antenna design in 4. in fact, experts said so months before darn thing went on sale, just based on the pics. people need to come to terms with the fact that apple is newcomer to the phones and that, despite the fact it might be the best portable device in the world, iphone is and always been pretty poor phone.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

What I'd like to see is the bumper being just a temporary measure until the hardware is revised and THEN have Apple offer a free replacement plan. Otherwise yeah, people stuck with an iPhone that needs a case to operate optimally are going to feel pretty miffed once the improved model is released. Early adopters getting shafted again, although that feels a lot like the iPhone price-drop debacle which Apple did make amends for, so maybe they will offer something here too.

Yes, that's my issue that will take months to be valid. So, I'm not got to have a hypothetical rant.

But, it seems like apple could say "you accepted the free case fix. Were not obligated to replace."

edit: I guess a work around would be claiming you have issues even with the case.

 

[evil ways]

Does the iPhone 4 still include the headphones with mic right out of the package?

If yes, then there you go, both death grip and sensor issues are completely solved. No dropped calls, no accidental hang ups.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Heh just drove by Apple and I had the bars down to one from holding it wrong and then the closer I got to the campus, the bars went up

 

[AstroLad]

Heh just drove by Apple and I had the bars down to one from holding it wrong and then the closer I got to the campus, the bars went up

someone warn steve jobs before it's too late!

 

[the_painted_bird]

Heh just drove by Apple and I had the bars down to one from holding it wrong and then the closer I got to the campus, the bars went up

Fuckin weird...

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Fuckin weird...

*twilight zone music*

 

[delirium]

The way Apple presented the iPhone drops call is so great, it completely bypasses the fact that the iPhone 4 could have dropped a lot more calls than 3GS. Great spin right there.

 

[sonycowboy]

Actually Jobs said that 4 drops more calls than 3GS, but of course downplayed it as irrelavant... problem is - iphone always had problems with dropping calls (and no, not just ATT, UK users have similar problems and I always had worse reception on my iphone)...

so new version, with supposedly revolutionary antena, actually has... more problems that before.

:lol

The way Apple presented the iPhone drops call is so great, it completely bypasses the fact that the iPhone 4 could have dropped a lot more calls than 3GS. Great spin right there.

Did you actually watch? What their statement was is that the iPhone 4 drops <1 more call per 100 calls than the 3GS. How does that equate to "a lot more calls"?

Overall, I think Apple made a pretty strong case that this is a bunch of too-do about a little. That being said, I think Steve came off as completely pissed and too defensive regarding the press when I'm sure he understands the attention the iPhone and Apple get due to their recent successes and the coming battle with Android that does seem to be almost a console war-ish polarism of users.

I think chiding the folks he invited and who are going to write the stories probably isn't what the PR folks would have advised him.

 

[delirium]

RIM's CEOs calling out Steve Jobs and Apple over this:

"Apple's attempt to draw RIM into Apple's self-made debacle is unacceptable. Apple's claims about RIM products appear to be deliberate attempts to distort the public's understanding of an antenna design issue and to deflect attention from Apple's difficult situation. RIM is a global leader in antenna design and has been successfully designing industry-leading wireless data products with efficient and effective radio performance for over 20 years. During that time, RIM has avoided designs like the one Apple used in the iPhone 4 and instead has used innovative designs which reduce the risk for dropped calls, especially in areas of lower coverage. One thing is for certain, RIM's customers don't need to use a case for their BlackBerry smartphone to maintain proper connectivity. Apple clearly made certain design decisions and it should take responsibility for these decisions rather than trying to draw RIM and others into a situation that relates specifically to Apple."

- Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsillie

http://crackberry.com/rim-official-statment-response-apples-iphone-4-antenna-propaganda

Spoiler

In before someone says its a rimjob

Did you actually watch? What their statement was is that the iPhone 4 drops <1 more call per 100 calls than the 3GS. How does that equate to "a lot more calls"?

If the 3GS drops 1 call per 100 and its an increase of 1, that's 2 drop calls per 100 for the iPhone 4. That's a 100% increase and is very statistically significant.

 

[VanMardigan]

Every person I spoke to that READ the news thought it was cool and are considering the phone once again. Every person that saw the conference either live or off apple.com was pissed at what Steve was saying. I know he was trying to prove a point (that may or may not have merit), but really it just came off as..........almost the exact same thing that Gary is doing here, downplaying shit and talking over people so that he is the last man standing. I'm sure that for every point Steve made, you can find a perfect facsimile in a gary whitta post..in this thread.

 

[Conceited]

I was going to read through this entire thread but after a while I just started skimming to Gary Whittas posts, the shit he writes is just hilarious.

I mean damn are they employing you?

 

[LCfiner]

All I kept thinking about listening to the presser was Charlton Heston in True Lies asking about Hard Data

Steve repeated that line about a dozen times. kinda funny

And, having watched the thing after reading the Ars technica live blog, I'd have to say that Steve sounded more apologetic and humble than presented in that blog.

 

[RBH]

Consumer Reports Still Not Recommending iPhone 4
Saturday July 17, 2010

Consumer Reports, the prominent ratings and reviews magazine, is still declining to recommend the iPhone 4 following Apple's offer of free cases for all iPhone 4 customers through September 30th.

"Consumer Reports believes Apple's offer of free cases is a good first step. However, Apple has indicated that this is not a long-term solution, it has guaranteed the offer only through September 30th, and has not extended it unequivocally to customers who bought cases from third-party vendors. We look forward to a long-term fix from Apple. As things currently stand, the iPhone 4 is still not one of our Recommended models."

The magazine touched off a firestorm in the mainstream media earlier this week by not recommending Apple's iPhone 4 due to antenna issues despite the device topping its rankings of smartphones. The uproar led to the press conference at Apple's headquarters where the company addressed the antenna issues and made its offer of free cases for users.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/el...conference-news-consumer-reports-ratings.html

 

[Ice Monkey]

RIM's CEOs calling out Steve Jobs and Apple over this:

Unfair crack at apple by RIM. The whole point of the RIM/HTC thing was to show that all phones have problems when you hold them in a way that uses your hand as a shield. If anyone raged about blackberries failing in the death grip like apple showed evidence of, RIM would have been right there mirroring the argument. The difference is that RIM wouldn't have to account for a magical antenna button.

Apple never once equated the magic antenna strip to anything RIM has to offer, he was countering the idiocy of those on the internet raging about how a phone reacts when you cut a hole in your wrist and shove the phone in.

He pointed out the strip issue as the weak spot, we can't expect him to harp any more on an obvious flaw. It's bad business. All we can expect is that he admits it.

but really it just came off as..........almost the exact same thing that Gary is doing here, downplaying shit and talking over people so that he is the last man standing. I'm sure that for every point Steve made, you can find a perfect facsimile in a gary whitta post..in this thread.

No need to get so abrasive, you can't fault gary for defending the iphone when he's one of the apparent few (like me) who like the bumper case (which negates antenna issues) and really like the phone in general.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/el...conference-news-consumer-reports-ratings.html

And they shouldn't. No fix = no recommend.

 

[Lord Error]

Unfair crack at apple by RIM. The whole point of the RIM/HTC thing was to show that all phones have problems when you hold them in a way that uses your hand as a shield. If anyone raged about blackberries failing in the death grip like apple showed evidence of, RIM would have been right there mirroring the argument. The difference is that RIM wouldn't have to account for a magical antenna button.

It's not unfair at all from him to complain. What was unfair was from Jobs to use competing phones to compare apples to oranges. The problem those other phones exhibit is simply not the same thing Iphone 4 has, or at least nowhere near to the same degree. What Jobs forgot to mention is that those other phones need an unnaturally strong handhold to exhibit signal attenuation (as you hand is acting as a signal shield), whereas with Iphone 4 it is just enough to touch it or hold it very lightly, because the hand in that case is not just a shield but a conductor touching the antennas.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/el...conference-news-consumer-reports-ratings.html

Absolutely logical no-nonsense approach. I'm glad noone from the media is buying into Apple's smear campaign. Now bring on the white model so that we can see if some kind of coating is applied on it.

 

[Doodis]

I'm usually not a fan of cases, I rarely had one on any of my previous iPhones. But in the case of the 4 the extra thin-ness of the phone couple with the flatter design actually make it quite tricky to hold "naked". I'm constantly thinking I'm going to drop it. The bumper makes it a much more comfortable fit in the hand. I do prefer the bumper-less look though.

Agree completely. The bumper makes it easier to grip, but does ruin the aesthetic a bit. However, I prefer having it on, as I'm paranoid in general.

Also, this phone is still as amazing as the day I bought it.