Are Western Devs the worst they have ever been these days or am I just having a bitter old man hot take?

Oh yes, done many times before.

As opposed to Resident Evil 9, or some overly acrobatic samurai sword wielding action game, or maybe a turn based RPG with ridiculously dressed youths in it. Or any of the above but styled with a cartoon aesthetic.

.. Fucking genius.
 
Raven117 said:
Expedition 33 is deep, mature, layered, and unabashedly itself. It wasn't focus tested, Corpo fucked, or cynical. It was passion and art.

It single handily renewed my belief in the medium. But also why I haven't picked up a game since. Im tired of wasting my time with slop.
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and it is a western developed game. :messenger_beaming:

The United States is not the entirety of the west.
 
Verchod said:
Oh yes, done many times before.

As opposed to Resident Evil 9, or some overly acrobatic samurai sword wielding action game, or maybe a turn based RPG with ridiculously dressed youths in it. Or any of the above but styled with a cartoon aesthetic.

.. Fucking genius.
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Would rather have that than the terrible dialogue, politically driven design choices, cringe stories, shitty pacing where awesome moments lead to nothing outside of a display. Weak character building and more.
I could go on, but Expedition 33 just launched not too long ago, so there is hope.
 
American AAA games mostly suck these days.

But there's still cool stuff coming from the west IMO.
Expedition 33 is honestly one of my favorite games ever. People seem to have mostly enjoyed stuff like KCD2, Split Fiction, Tainted Grail, etc. And there's some cool upcoming stuff like Hell is Us, The Eternal Life of Goldman, Mafia, Metroid Prime 4, Kingmakers, etc.

Also over the last few years stuff like Helldivers 2 , Space Marine 2, Baldurs Gate 3, etc were great.
 
Raven117 said:
Expedition 33 is deep, mature, layered, and unabashedly itself. It wasn't focus tested, Corpo fucked, or cynical. It was passion and art.

It single handily renewed my belief in the medium. But also why I haven't picked up a game since. Im tired of wasting my time with slop.
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Same here haven't played anything since I finished it. I honestly thought I was kind of done with gaming, started on the NES and I thought nothing would surprise or grab me anymore.
Well the problem is not that I am getting old, stuff really has been subpar for the last 15 years.
Of course there's exceptions, particularly indies, but nothing to really wow me until E33.
 
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Are you conflating the Chinese, Korean and European indie game slop with western AAAs? Who are underperforming mind you, but they're not the problem as far as what was actually shown this week.
 
SupaComputa said:
Same here haven't played anything since I finished it. I honestly thought I was kind of done with gaming, started on the NES and I thought nothing would surprise or grab me anymore.
Well the problem is not that I am getting old, stuff really has been subpar for the last 15 years.
Of course there's exceptions, particularly indies, but nothing to really wow me until E33.
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This is it exactly. I mean… exactly how I felt.
 
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RoboFu said:
Are you saying mario doesn't have great gameplay?

spit-take-bowl.gif
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Am playing Super Mario Wonder currently.

Going by that.

Dogshit gameplay. Incredible vibes.

And no, having hidden mechanics don't make it good. It lacks basic level design to be a good platformer.

Edit: I can post a couple of levels I played yesterday.
 
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Btw, this might be a controversial opinion to some, but I firmly believe that "gaming media" played a major part in the current AAA creative rut we're seeing now. They've consistently been shooting down anything that tried to break the mold just because they didn't "get it" or had a fixation on non-issues. The unfortunate truth of the matter is that they still have some "pull" and on people's spending habits. Whenever some game that tries to be "different", or do something out of the ordinary, gets a "low-middling" grade/average it turns off a lot of people from giving it a try. There's been way too many instances of that happening in the past decade. The big studios took the wrong lessons from the wrong people.

Danny Dudekisser said:
As someone who works in the biz, yes, Western developers (AAAs mostly) are particularly terrible right now and it's fucking exhausting. The games are bad. The art styles are bad, the gameplay is clunky, and there's typically no originality or spark of creativity you need to be an effective twist on a well-trodden idea. The bigger problem is that there's an insane insistence on throwing in more mechanical systems or bigger worlds, or other shit that a focus test might've suggested was a good idea, but that few people in reality actually want. And ironically, that's what's massively amplifying the cost and thus, the risk, of developing said game. This is because the exec teams are typically not gamers and most don't even have a casual interest in or basic knowledge of gaming. This is especially true with big tech, where everyone wants to make a fuss about how they're "all in on gaming" but everyone staffing the project is just some reject from that company's app store or video platform. I'm rarely impressed with the actual dev teams I've met with at the big studios. I'm most definitely not saying there isn't talent there, but "go along to get along" is 10000% the order of the day. If you are really good at what you do, you should probably not be working at one of these farms.

And the Western devs are the ones that get all the airtime. You hear the industry is dying, because you will typically only hear their bullshit message parroted. The sky isn't falling. They're just fucked. But it doesn't matter - you run that line of bullshit enough times, and the whole industry starts to believe it. I think the success of Clair Obscur might have finally driven the message home that you can have a highly profitable game that actually goes all in on a novel concept, especially because that success is arriving on the heels of Helldivers II, Manor Lords, Palworld, and of course, Baldur's Gate 3. These dipshits are finally starting to pause and say "hey wait, you mean I'm a fucking imbecile?"

Anyway, Western indies are a lot better. They've also gotten into a rut of just copying the same roguelike deckbuilder piece of shit we've seen a trillion times, but there's still a genuine creative spark there for a lot of teams, and that's encouraging. I'm glad that Japan figured their shit again out at some point, because my God, somebody has to be able to deliver good games with a decent budget behind them.

The point is, you're completely right, OP.
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Speaking of all this insistence on overloading games with excessive systems, sounds like an overcompensation for their lack in the remaining areas. Kinda their way of "stuffing" games with busy work to keep people distracted and preoccupied to question the "fun" they're getting. Same goes for propping up games with super high fidelity graphics. Its become a crutch for a lack of imagination. That crutch is becoming less and less effective as time goes on though.

The whole notion with most exec teams not being gamers, more or less, is another problem in itself. The Take2 CEO recently made this mildly smug and condescending comment about how he doesn't play games and isn't the "consumer-in-chief". Execs with this attitude are eventually going to become a risk to their own respective companies, kinda like Boeing, if they keep treading down that path.
 
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Perrott said:
Sorry, but no.

There was a time in which Europe delivered banger after banger, from the Batman: Arkham trilogy to Battlefield 3 and 4 or the Bad Company duology, from MotorStorm and DriveClub to Burnout Paradise and Criterion's Need for Speed games, from Mad Max and Dying Light to Hitman and Wolfenstein: The New Colossus, from The Witcher 2 and 3 to Mafia II, from Inside to Resogun, from Payday to The Division, from Killzone 2 to Crysis, from Alan Wake to Heavy Rain, from Mirror's Edge to Metro 2033 and Last Light, from Dishonored to Remember Me, from a MediaMolecule that released games to a Lionhead that ran wild under Peter Molyneux's command.
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From European devs so far this gen (that I can recall):

Expedition 33
Kingdom Come 2
Alan Wake 2
Dying Light 2
Atomic Heart
Split Fiction
It Take Two
Returnal
Satisfactory
Helldivers 2
Warhammer 40k: Rogue Trader
Silent Hill 2 Remake
Demon Souls Remake
Horizon Forbidden West
Stalker 2
Indiana Jones and the Great Circle
Frostpunk 2
Baldurs Gate 3
Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous
Crusader Kings 3
Cyberpunk 2077 + Phantom Liberty
Total War: Warhammer 3
A Plague Tale: Requiem
Dirt 5
V Rising
Forza Horizon 5
Vampire Survivors
Deathloop
Metroid Dread

Seems like a really solid list, European devs are fine this gen.
 
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I don't know what the solution is but the problem is extremely easy to identify - western devs, particular Americans who are mostly centralized on the west coast, are paid 2x-3x what their European and Japanese counterparts are.

This, combined with the massive amount of time it takes to make a modern AAA game, is causing budgets to explode and nobody except the absolute biggest of the big can make a profit. As such, the only games greenlit are surefires, franchises, IP based things like Star Wars or marvel, or things that can be monetized long term.

the only way to fix it is to get games back on a 2/3 year timeline, and that means lowering the graphical bar and the scale of the projects, and then continuing to charge $70/$80. Which to me is fine, I think most games are way too big now and PS4 level graphics are good enough.

Unfortunately places like digital foundry are perpetuating this issue and are creating a culture that values pixel counting over having fun.
 
Depends on what you mean by western. Maybe US/Canada studios like Bioware, Obsidian, Ubisoft Montreal or Bethesda are in a rut, but European studios like Warhorse (Kingdom Come Deliverance 2), CD Projekt (Cyberpunk Phantom Liberty), Larian (BG3), Sandfall (Expedition33), Hazelight (Split Fiction), Remedy (Alan Wake 2), Tindalos (Aliens Dark Descent), MachineGames (Indiana Jones), Starward (Invincible), GSC (Stalker 2), Owlcat (Rogue Trader), Mundfish (Atomic Heart), Asobo (Plague Tale), Bloober (SH2 Remake), Astronauts (Witchfire)....I could go on, are having time of their lives and I am loving their games.
 
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Denton said:
Depends on what you mean by western. Maybe US/Canada studios like Bioware, Obsidian, Ubisoft Montreal or Bethesda are in a rut, but European studios like Warhorse (Kingdom Come Deliverance 2), CD Projekt (Cyberpunk Phantom Liberty), Larian (BG3), Sandfall (Expedition33), Hazelight (Split Fiction), Remedy (Alan Wake 2), Tindalos (Aliens Dark Descent), MachineGames (Indiana Jones), Starward (Invincible), GSC (Stalker 2), Owlcat (Rogue Trader), Mundfish (Atomic Heart), Asobo (Plague Tale), Bloober (SH2 Remake), Astronauts (Witchfire)....I could go on, are having time of their lives and I am loving their games.
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100% this. You can throw in Arrowhead for Helldivers 2 and Housemarque for Returnal too. Europe is entering a bit of a golden age right now. The US though? Seems like the corporate Kool Aid has done a number on them.
 
Hyperbole.

Even half of Bandai's stuff look same same. Even if you like that style more.

If something is different but not geling (for the individual), they're trying to too hard. That's another possible view.

That said, most are quite uninteresting, and it takes a bit for any one to stand out. I'm a bit tired of generic medieval as I am generic anime.

NG4 looks about as what you'd honestly expect, but my action game bias thinks it's probably better.

So much just isn't hitting for me, and i gues that's fine, plenty of backlog.
 
PS3/360 gen JP games was a statistical error.

JP games have always been great. Now even more when combined with the growing asian dev market.

This is just my opinion but the reason western games are a bit bland is it has become less of product for consumers to enjoy but more of a way for developers/publishers to either nickle and dime you or for them push ideologies that so discordant with the game especially on sequels.
 
Praising european games and saying how much american ones declined? Welcome to my world in seventh gen. It's even worse now if we think just about triple A games though.
 
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You are not bitter. You just have standards.
This decline mirrors the decline of the West.
Most people are not aware of the growing cognitive gap between us and the rest of the world.
 
I really couldn't be in a more different place. There's a ton of great western games right now at all budget levels. Western developers utterly dominate indies. We're seeing more and more western AA games deliver as well, like Clair Obscur, Plague Tale, Avowed, Hellblade 2, and many more all made with small teams but pushing boundaries in many ways that even AAA stuff isn't right now. Looks like Owlcats, a studio most have never even heard of, is about to start showing their version of Mass Effect (The Expanse TPS action RPG). AAA games are a bit less than before, but that's fine with me. There's still some of those too; playing Doom now and it's a lot of fun. Pretty sure Clockwork Revolution is a AA game as well, and that looks like game of the show(s) this year. I can't imagine a Japanese studio getting something like that together right now. They're barely even using Unreal 5 on any level.

I actually think we're in a poor period for Japanese games right now; a fairly significant one. Nioh 3 is going to be fun, but looks 2 generations behind at this point. I'm psyched for Ninja Gaiden 4, but Platinum is seemingly struggling. From Software has put out the same game for 15 years and their tech isn't improving at all. China is loaded with potential, but focusing on anime gacha games and souls clones. South Korea is another bright spot, but still a drop in the bucket in terms of total output compared to western content. Nintendo has been sleeping for a year, so I'm ready for them to get going. Mario Kart is definitely not a bad game, but a bit of a let down and a step back from 8 for me personally. Capcom is good, but overly focused on remakes, rereleases, ports and safe sequels. I will be happy if Pragmata delivers, but so far I'm not completely sold on it. I think if it didn't say "Capcom" in the trailer, people would be a little less impressed at this point. SQEX is in a deep rut like never before, and we know their best team is cursed to put out another large remake before they can start even thinking about pre-production for something new, so don't expect it to turn around for another 7 years. I think one of the few slightly bright spots is Sega, but they also put out way too many extremely safe sequels; though the new Virtua Fighter and (not)Yakuza look very impressive. The worst portions of the worst show this year was Eastern anime content at the Summer Game Fest; and I'm not an anti-anime person. It's just turned into the most derivative and repetitive content in all of gaming right now. It's the rock bottom, and it's not from the west right now. Even Shinobi and Ninja Gaiden Ragebound are coming from western studios this year, and both look pretty solid.
 
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Raven117 said:
This wasn't any more clear and apparent to me then when I played Expedition 33.

Expedition 33 is deep, mature, layered, and unabashedly itself. It wasn't focus tested, Corpo fucked, or cynical. It was passion and art.

It single handily renewed my belief in the medium. But also why I haven't picked up a game since. Im tired of wasting my time with slop.

(And it is the same problem across all of media.)
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Nothing personal and this isn't directed at you Raven117 Raven117 but I can't wait until 6 months or a year from now when everyone stops riding E33's d*ck.

I just don't get it. It was a mediocre game with easily broken combat, cliche story beats, and some glaring flaws (i.e. lack of mini-map, etc...)

I guess it's the turn-based, JRPG-style RPG for people who only play Final Fantasy, because pretty much everything released by Monolith, Atlus, and Falcom in the last decade beats the pants off of E33 in my opinion.

I really just do not get why this game is as popular as it is. It's great that people love it, but it's not for me.
 
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Poppinfresh said:
Nothing personal and this isn't directed at you Raven117 Raven117 but I can't wait until 6 months or a year from now when everyone stops riding E33's d*ck.

I just don't get it. It was a mediocre game with easily broken combat, cliche story beats, and some glaring flaws (i.e. lack of mini-map, etc...)

I guess it's the turn-based, JRPG-style RPG for people who only play Final Fantasy, because pretty much everything released by Monolith, Atlus, and Falcom in the last decade beats the pants off of E33 in my opinion.

I really just do not get why this game is as popular as it is. It's great that people love it, but it's not for me.
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It's all opinions man. Does it borrow heavily from old FF, monolith, atlus, etc? Of course.

But it's the way the game is put together, that drips French existentialism, that many of what you say bugs, are imo features, is why it's so good.

The package itself matters. It was presented in a way that didn't patronize the player. It was mature in vibe, themes, and character development. If I play one more "jrpg" that's a bunch of high schools kids through the power of friendship bullshit, I'll quit gaming. Gawd damn (that wasn't at you either).

I've played a lot of RPGs going way way back. While this game is a bit of the right place at the right time (Ie a single player mature experience rather than gaas bubble gum), this ranks as one of my favorites.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the game. But lots of others do.

It's a great thing to happen.
 
Woke bullshit, cashins, trend chasing, metaverse gaming, gaming consultants, and good enough for gamepass.

North American games have never been worse. Japan has never been better. Hell, the rest of the world has never been better.

In America we try to appeal to everyone with every game and it is dumb but many feel obligated to do it due to their social justice mission of inclusion. Inclusion means including everyone in everything. That is why we suck.

Like let's say America made FFVII. There would be no way to allow Tifa to appeal to the male gaze or to even have a crush on Cloud. If she did that would not be inclusive. For every 1x male gaze we would need 1.2x female gazes and .6 other gazes, or just remove the male gaze alltogehter. There are very specific rules about representation that studios must follow in order to get the DEI loans, called diversity(or inclusion) riders in the contract required to access monies from producers or VC. Rules such as you must have X amount of screentime per hour for specific subjects. I can only imagine that gaming consultants make most of their money by outlining ways to adhere to these riders and not necessarily to just add dev costs making arbitrary changes. There have been some TV shows that have came up with some very creative ways to skirt these riders.

When you tell an artist what their next painting MUST include in order to be released then you are no longer creating art.
 
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Poppinfresh said:
Nothing personal and this isn't directed at you Raven117 Raven117 but I can't wait until 6 months or a year from now when everyone stops riding E33's d*ck.
Click to expand...

I guess you're in for a long wait because six month from now Expedition 33 is probably going to be taking home a bunch of TGA's and getting a whole new boost of popularity.

Poppinfresh said:
I guess it's the turn-based, JRPG-style RPG for people who only play Final Fantasy, because pretty much everything released by Monolith, Atlus, and Falcom in the last decade beats the pants off of E33 in my opinion.
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You call E33 cliche and then say this? 🙄 Metaphor: ReFantazio is Tropes & Cliches: The Game.
 
How many game trailers for 2025 / 2026 have a strong-female-protagonist wielding a sword have come out in the last 7 months? I watched YouTube talking head video bringing that point up and it is just, ick, when I see a trailer with it now.

*Edit*
Found it (timestamped).
 
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The problem is essentially almost the entire Western media industry took it upon itself to chase a whole bunch of trends that the audience never asked for.

Basically, a bunch of dickheads got 'religion' and decided that everyone was going to follow along because in their minds "it was the right thing to do."

Despite it becoming immediately apparent that it wasn't helping sales (and job security) the length of time it takes to make games and a surplus of DEI money in the Covid-era bubble have combined to extend the error into the present.

Its actually pretty hilarious. The woke tropes have been overused to the point of cliche, despite never being popular in the first place!
 
They are doing much better than Japan. Who is stuck making hilariously ugly and generic Souls clones for eternity. And ugly generic Samurai games. And ugly generic anime/action games. Every game they make is a disaster technically. They've hit rock bottom.

China is on the rise. Dozens of no name studios releasing gorgeous games and they all sell well. China got next.

Western devs aint going nowehere. Still got heavy hitters coming. GTA 6 is a behemoth.
 
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RoboFu said:

Are Western Devs the worst they have ever been these days or am I just having a bitter old man hot take?

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Bitter old man hot take (also from a fan of a platform were most top western devs don't publish their games).
 
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I don't really have preference tbh.
For every woke turd western game you have a dogma 2 or mh wilds that were underhwelming to say the least or some shit weeb game with gatcha mechanics.

Both western and japanese are super greedy, just look nintendo, sony or capcom.
 
DeepEnigma said:
The fuck they are.

Capcom and From alone are dragging their nuts across the West. And I'm not even a massive Capcom fan.
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Both make the same game over and over again.

From games are fucking hideous and only getting uglier with every release.

China >>>>>>

GTA 6 >>> Japan output this gen
 
Represent. said:
Both make the same game over and over again.

From games are fucking hideous and only getting uglier with every release.

China >>>>>>

GTA 6 >>> Japan output this gen
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Western character designs and tropes.

The worst.

China is literally cloning From games in UE5.

GTA is their own entity entirely.
 
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poodaddy said:
Nah you're right, they're just fucking awful these days. That being said, Eastern games aren't always great either, look at Square's recent string of slop.
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By now, can we even consider Square Enix an eastern company? they been trend chasing western games since the merge with Enix.
 
DeepEnigma said:
The fuck they are.

Capcom and From alone are dragging their nuts across the West. And I'm not even a massive Capcom fan.
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Dogma 2 was a wet fart that nobody gives a fuck about anymore and wilds disappointed a shitload of people And from made 2 games that nobody asked for and smell of easy cashgrab (nightreign and the switch stuff).

If we talk about lately, they haven't exactly scorched earth around them unless selling numbers are your only measure of success.
 
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GymWolf said:
Dogma 2 was a wet fart that nobody gives a fuck about anymore and wilds disappointed a shitload of people And from made 2 games that nobody asked for and smell of easy cashgrab (nightreign and the switch stuff).

If we speak about lately, they haven't exactly scorched earth around them...
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Sure, but you leave out the massive RE success and soon to be Onimusha. I didn't say they were perfect, none are, but averages wise. The major western devs have to climb out of the woke/dei hellhole they put themselves into first.

From has those two smaller projects, and will just drop another bomb and business will be per usual.
 
2025 top sellers:

Monster Hunter: WildsJapan (Capcom)
Assassin's Creed ShadowsFrance (Ubisoft)
Kingdom Come: Deliverance IICzech Republic (Plaion)
MLB The Show 25USA (Sony San Diego)
Call of Duty: Black Ops 6USA (Microsoft/Activision)

Now 2024 was a banger for Japan:

Game TitleCountry of Origin
Call of Duty: Black Ops 6USA (Activision)
EA Sports College Football 25USA (Electronic Arts)
Helldivers 2Sweden (Arrowhead Game Studios)
Dragon Ball: Sparking! ZeroJapan (Bandai Namco)
Elden RingJapan (FromSoftware)
Final Fantasy VII RebirthJapan (Square Enix)
Tekken 8Japan (Bandai Namco)
Dragon's Dogma 2Japan (Capcom)
 
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DeepEnigma said:
Sure, but you leave out the massive RE success and soon to be Onimusha. I didn't say they were perfect, none are, but averages wise. The major western devs have to climb out of the woke/dei hellhole they put themselves into first.

From has those two smaller projects, and will just drop another bomb and business will be per usual.
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On average, they are dragging their nuts across the west. Sometimes the nuts just graze the nose, sometimes they're in the mouth, but more than 50% of the time there is some nuts to face action. That's your position?
 
Unreal Engine and everything being on it, might participate in the sameness of everything.

But I do appreciate your premise that it does seem like western devs have lost some the things that made their games great and unique. Budgets also probably dictate that you cannot take risk as before, and to get published they want you within a certain market space.
 
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