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At $75,560, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

entremet

Member
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-prison-costs-20170604-htmlstory.html

That's enough to cover the annual cost of attending Harvard University and still have plenty left over for pizza and beer

Gov. Jerry Brown's spending plan for the fiscal year that starts July 1 includes a record $11.4 billion for the corrections department while also predicting that there will be 11,500 fewer inmates in four years because voters in November approved earlier releases for many inmates.

Corrections officers making bank!

I'm pro union, generally, but these public sector Unions, even in Blue States, which provide good funding, are becoming a huge burden. New York is second in prison spending, another Blue State.
 

Maxim726X

Member
'The invisible hands (shackles) of the market'.

Who knew that making prisons for profit would yield such outcomes?
 

TheOfficeMut

Unconfirmed Member
With the way the title and article is phrased, I'm supposed to find the cost of housing inmates at $75,560 absurd, but I actually find the fact that Harvard costs almost that much to attend for one year to be the real shit.

Fucking education, man.
 
Privatization in regards to governmental activities equals fraud, plain and simple. It is a form of cronyism and kleptocracy, leveraged often since records of private organization activities are much harder to obtain than public records.
 

spyder_ur

Member
This is a big, serious problem, but the headline is very misleading in regards to the comparison with a year at Harvard. First of all, very very few students pay that cited figure. Second, that figure is what it would cost a student to attend Harvard, not the costs associated with Harvard or another University housing and educating a student (and related costs thereof) for a year - which would be a significantly larger figure and would IMO make for a much better analogy. Just for context.
 

Occam

Member
Thanks, Reagan. What an awful president that man was...
There are many things wrong with America, but private prisons are some next level bullshit.
 
Ah the fruits of privatization..

To be fair, inmates in Canadian federal prisons cost us $117,000 per year as of 2014, and I understand that number has gone up since then. Women's penitentiaries seems to cost almost double that.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/03/18/federal-inmate-cost-soars-to-177gs-each-per-year

These prisons are state run, so, I could just as easily argue that competition in the market is keeping your prison costs down. Maybe it's that Americans are twice as hard of workers as Canadians and can realize efficiencies in volume that we can't, but yeah, $76,000 seems cheap compared to what we pay. I'm not arguing that we should have a privatized prison system, but just that maybe that does not necessarily 1:1 lead to higher costs.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
The article doesn't even bring it up private prisons. They even point out that dropping the prison population hasn't led to decreases because the people they were releasing weren't the ones costing the most money:

Joan Petersilia, co-director of the Stanford Criminal Justice Center, said it was “highly predictable” that per-inmate costs would increase even as the population decreased.

“We released all the low-risk, kind of low-need, and we kept in the high-risk, high-need,” she said.
 

Toa TAK

Banned
With the way the title and article is phrased, I'm supposed to find the cost of housing inmates at $75,560 absurd, but I actually find the fact that Harvard costs almost that much to attend for one year to be the real shit.

Fucking education, man.
Yeah. That's mind boggling.
 

shira

Member
tumblr_n6szw1P0iD1qacbojo1_250.gif
zgVM8.gif
bullshit_breaking_bad.gif
 

emag

Member
Norway's prison system costs about $93K per inmate.

However, the recidivism rate is much lower than in the US and the overall incarceration rate is just 75 per 100K persons compared to 700 per 100K persons (2015 figures), making Norway's system much cheaper on a national per-capita basis.

Save money, lower the crime rate, and turn criminals into productive members of society? Hmm.

70k for Harvard is fucking nuts. What are you guys even doing over there?

Those that pay the full cost (or close) subsidize those who get scholarships. The average actual price paid is closer to $18K/student/year, with poor to middle class students (under $75K family income/year) paying $3K-$6K, on average.
 

Timeaisis

Member
There is no mention of private prisons in the article. It only mentions costs going up in correlation with salaries and benefits for prison guards going up. More private prisons could very well could be a factor, but it's on average for all prisons in California, public and private. The problem's root seems to be from overspending on prison employees and facilities.

I sometimes wonder if anyone actually reads these things.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
It's obscene all around.

As pointed out, the actual dollar amounts for the inmates actually isn't crazy. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with private prisons (the article itself suggests nothing of the sort.)

Now, I'd agree about the university costs, but that's an entirely different argument.

There is no mention of private prisons in the article. It only mentions costs going up in correlation with salaries and benefits for prison guards going up. More private prisons could very well could be a factor, but it's on average for all prisons in California, public and private. The problem's root seems to be from overspending on prison employees and facilities.

I sometimes wonder if anyone actually reads these things.

The people who immediately said "fuck private prisons"? No, they did not.
 

MThanded

I Was There! Official L Receiver 2/12/2016
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-prison-costs-20170604-htmlstory.html



Corrections officers making bank!

I'm pro union, generally, but these public sector Unions, even in Blue States, which provide good funding, are becoming a huge burden. New York is second in prison spending, another Blue State.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/correctional-officer-salary-SRCH_KO0,20.htm
National Avg
$37,979
Where is this info that the cost per prisoner is increasing drastically due to the salary increase of corrections officers? More specifically implicating the corrections officer unions for somehow causing the cost per prisoner to increase. I reread the article you posted to make sure I didn't miss something. Maybe there is another article you can post to provide more information.
 

Rootbeer

Banned
The costs are all the more outrageous when you consider almost none of those prisoners would be able to make $75K/yr if they were free men and women, even if you ignore their arrest history. That's a tall order for a salary.

Only about 10% of the population makes $80K/yr or above. But we can house individual prisoners for nearly that much and not bat an eye, all to line the pockets of these prisons. Society is so fucked up.
 
The numbers really aren't comparable. Prison systems should be much higher per prisoner because the prison has to cover 100% of the living expenses of the prisoner. Housing (electricity, heat, etc), food, clothes, health care, programs, services, and every other expense. Harvard largely does not cover those things without an added expense, and doesn't cover things like Health Care, which would likely be the most expensive cost. Health care is probably one of the biggest factors because it's a cost that isn't as fungible with a lower cost alternative like prison food or clothing would be. Sure, prison food can be made cheaply, but there is a high-bottom expensive for, say, doctors, psychiatrists, and other medical professionals and prisoners probably require more services directly from the prison medical staff than Harvard students require from the Harvard health services.

With the way the title and article is phrased, I'm supposed to find the cost of housing inmates at $75,560 absurd, but I actually find the fact that Harvard costs almost that much to attend for one year to be the real shit.

Fucking education, man.

The sticker price at Harvard for a full pay is $64,000, but the discount rate at Harvard is one of the highest of any private college in the country. The discount rate, in private colleges, is the rate at which tuition is discounted for the average student. At private colleges, nationally, the discount rate has been about 50% for about the last 5 years, but for a school like Harvard, it's typically higher, where a small percentage of full-pays or near full-pays (usually, either very high earning families or very high earning foreign families) subsidize the education for a larger percentage of lower-income brilliant students.

High tuition at Harvard sounds some a fucked up system, but this is how it should probably work. The richest of the rich who performed relatively poorly in school (e.g., a 4.0 GPA but they got an A- once in 8th grade, and their parents are in the highest percentile of the top 1%) pay a disproportionately high amount of the tuition, which subsidizes the same education for high-performers who are relatively lower-income. Tuition is that high mostly because they have to pay the salaries and benefits of, quite literally, the most brilliant people in the world.
 
With the way the title and article is phrased, I'm supposed to find the cost of housing inmates at $75,560 absurd, but I actually find the fact that Harvard costs almost that much to attend for one year to be the real shit.

Fucking education, man.

It's widely known that education is shit and the prices to attend universities is absurd which is why housing an inmate is compared to it.
 
Norway's prison system costs about $93K per inmate.

However, the recidivism rate is much lower than in the US (20% vs. 68%) and the overall incarceration rate is just 75 per 100K persons compared to 700 per 100K persons (2015 figures), making Norway's system much cheaper on a national per-capita basis.

Save money, lower the crime rate, and turn criminals into productive members of society? Hmm.

Rehabilitation is not the American way, brother.
 

entremet

Member
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/correctional-officer-salary-SRCH_KO0,20.htm

Where is this info that the cost per prisoner is increasing drastically due to the salary increase of corrections officers? More specifically implicating the corrections officer unions for somehow causing the cost per prisoner to increase. I reread the article you posted to make sure I didn't miss something. Maybe there is another article you can post to provide more information.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...tion-down-payroll-up-2015mar25-htmlstory.html

Still, the prison system has seen surges in overtime before, particularly in the correctional officer ranks. In 2006, the U-T reported that nearly 2,400 rank-and-file prison guards were paid $100,000 or more in 2005, a fourfold increase from the previous year. That's 10 percent of officers. The increase was largely due to overtime.

Prison officials told the U-T at the time that a prison guard shortage and a growing inmate population were to blame for the overtime spike. State officials and lawmakers also noted that prison guard training classes had been canceled for several months in 2003, contributing to the problem.

Last year, more than 8,000 rank-and-file correctional officers earned $100,000 or more in total wages, an increase of 68 percent over 2013. That's 34 percent of officers.

It's more complex than just salaries, though.
 

I'd also wonder with those numbers whether prisons were hiring relatively fewer prison guards per prison population, which leads to more overtime, which leads to a higher percentage of prison guards making disproportionately more money than in prior years. Especially for numbers citing 2006, where many state budgets were starting to go into recession, this would make some sense.

You saw this phenomenon from 2006-2014 where state budgets for law enforcement were tighter because of less tax revenue, but a higher percentage of police were earning higher salaries. The reason, of course, was overtime and detail, which was because cities and towns were not hiring new officers and so there would be relatively fewer officers per capita, and so the salaries would increase. The public outcry was that how can individual police officers be making more money while the budgets were cut, but the reason was they were necessarily making more money because the budgets were cut.
 
Yup, OT is a huge issue. I started out at $44k, however due to OT and differential pay I'm making more than $55k. Too many inmates and not enough officers. There are a few units where it's one officer and over 200 inmates.
 

spyder_ur

Member
It's widely known that education is shit and the prices to attend universities is absurd which is why housing an inmate is compared to it.

It's obscene all around.

Building connections

Again, as someone who has worked in University Financial Aid and Development offices, the number given is highly misleading and the analogy is terrible. The average student pays nowhere near this amount. Here's a rough calculator for Harvard.

The price to a student is far less than the cited number, while the actual cost to Harvard, while being very difficult to calculate given variables like professorships, capital construction/facilities, etc., is actually likely to be much higher.

It's a misleading number and a dumb analogy. Albatross' explanation below starts to cover it...

The numbers really aren't comparable. Prison systems should be much higher per prisoner because the prison has to cover 100% of the living expenses of the prisoner. Housing (electricity, heat, etc), food, clothes, health care, programs, services, and every other expense. Harvard largely does not cover those things without an added expense, and doesn't cover things like Health Care, which would likely be the most expensive cost.

The sticker price at Harvard for a full pay is $64,000, but the discount rate at Harvard is one of the highest of any private college in the country. The discount rate, in private colleges, is the rate at which tuition is discounted for the average student. At private colleges, nationally, the discount rate has been about 50% for about the last 5 years, but for a school like Harvard, it's typically higher, where a small percentage of full-pays or near full-pays (usually, either very high earning families or very high earning foreign families) subsidize the education for a larger percentage of lower-income brilliant students.

High tuition at Harvard sounds some a fucked up system, but this is how it should probably work. The richest of the rich who performed relatively poorly in school (e.g., a 4.0 GPA but they got an A- once in 8th grade, and their parents are in the highest percentile of the top 1%) pay a disproportionately high amount of the tuition, which subsidizes the same education for high-performers who are relatively lower-income. Tuition is that high mostly because they have to pay the salaries and benefits of, quite literally, the most brilliant people in the world.


It's widely known that education is shit and the prices to attend universities is absurd which is why housing an inmate is compared to it.

Pricing and financing of higher ed is both convoluted and a potential pending disaster - agreed. But I don't think anyone with any brains would say that Harvard or American universities in general are shit. Any listing of the top 10 Universities in the world will have 5-8 from the US there.

Either way, it's a terrible analogy for the reasons described above and elsewhere.
 

gaiages

Banned
To be fair, inmates in Canadian federal prisons cost us $117,000 per year as of 2014, and I understand that number has gone up since then. Women's penitentiaries seems to cost almost double that.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/03/18/federal-inmate-cost-soars-to-177gs-each-per-year

These prisons are state run, so, I could just as easily argue that competition in the market is keeping your prison costs down. Maybe it's that Americans are twice as hard of workers as Canadians and can realize efficiencies in volume that we can't, but yeah, $76,000 seems cheap compared to what we pay. I'm not arguing that we should have a privatized prison system, but just that maybe that does not necessarily 1:1 lead to higher costs.

You're missing two important points:

1. How many prisoners do you have per year in Canada? The article you posted says 14,745 in 2014. The US prison system has 2,220,300 as of 2013 (via Wikipedia).
2. The Canadian dollar has less spending power. $117,000 Canadian is $86,766.29 US.

So it costs waaaaaaaaay more at the end of the day for the US with their current system than Canada.
 
“If you look at it simplistically, people may presume if you reduce the inmate population, you will reduce costs, but the purpose of the blueprint and the purpose of the court’s recommendation to us is to reduce the population as a means to other ends — to increase mental health care, medical care, rehabilitation and education,” said Bill Sessa, a spokesman for the corrections department.

Sessa said the blueprint wasn’t meant to suggest the savings would come immediately. The department expects the savings to accumulate over decades as its investment in rehabilitation helps reduce the rate of repeat offenses.

“We’re spending more on the care of the inmates and less on pure custody,” Sessa said.

This all makes perfect sense, and the problem seems to be understaffing + overtime costs, which is the reason Brown budgeted more for next year. Ideally, more staff + more invested in reducing recidivism (mental health care, job training, drug rehab) means the end goal is to release enough inmates to close prisons. That's worth the budget increase.
 

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
Idea for Trump 2020 whiteboard, turn all liberal colleges into prisons "They'll make more money that way"
 
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