codswallop
Member
Could you turn them off?
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AusGAF 8 - Worksafe Wankers
- Thread starter Kritz
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Well, you could not play the game. That is equivalent.
holy fucking shit, developers
I really don't need to have a gigantic pat on the back that permanently displays at the top of my screen why won't you let me uninstall that you obviously designed your game around this system and you're restricting choice by not letting me delete it
The problem with the popups was that you couldn't turn them on. I don't think you can turn off the list though, but who would want that? I mean, just don't look at it right? To be fair though, the ruin was still there.
It's likely done to provide crowd control as well. Don't want all the punters in one place, got to spread them out.
Heading to Soundwave Brisbane this weekend, then seeing Paul Kelly and Neil Finn Wednesday, Tim Rogers and the Bamboos Thursday, Future Music Saturday, flying to America Monday where I will see Sigur Ros, Thomas Kanolky and The Specials.
codswallop
Member
Just knowing they exist is enough to ruin my day.
FallbackPants
Member
Getting my 13 year old car serviced. Goodbye pay cheque
Ruthless_Barbarian
Member
HX750, though the box says HX75. The specs on jb hifi and other retailers are so wrong, this one has gorilla glass and edge lit LED but they don't even mention it.
Just unpacked the thing last night....so not yet
I'm sure they'll change your oil. Wait until you see how much they charge for that.
FallbackPants
Member
Air filter is stuffed
Brake pads are going
Shockies are leaking
Something (I've forgotten already) in the drive train is leaking.
I'm getting the first two fixed and will sort the others next month. Slash never. Maybe it's time for a new car
First two are super easy to replace. If you can replace the milk in your fridge, you can replace an air filter.
Planet_JASE
Member
FallbackPants
Member
I've done them before, although I remember replacing breaks being a bitch. It's done more than 200,000ks. So it's just getting old. And I don't really take the best care of it if I'm honest
Brakes may be a pain depending on your car. The ones I've seen are very simple, though if you don't have pneumatic tools it's much less fun.
If you don't take good care of your car with regular fluid changes and whatnot, then considering the amount of wear it has endured, you're probably due for a new one. I'm sure some L or P plater would gladly take whatever you have. Second hand cars are cheap anyway.
You've reminded me that I need to take my bike to the shop for a carbie rejet. I can do routine maintenance and such, but I'm not touching a carbie, temperamental little things they are.
Yes, I was missing the achievement for that.
FallbackPants
Member
I didn't even think of tools. I did it when I lived on my dad's farm so we were tool central. Now I've got fuck all and what I do have is cheap as.
Carbies are pricks. Good call on that.
If I get a new one and I think I will, maybe after I've spent all my money going to America later in the year, I think I'll make an effort to actually take good care of it and maintain it. Actually and use it less. I live like a kilometre from a train station.
This along with your 'I'm yet to see a bad example of achievements ruining game design' is argument from ignorance fallacy and you should know better.
reptilescorpio
Member
I thought it was Golden Staph?
14 year old Stackboy would be happy as fuck to see grown up Stackboy living the dream. Lucky bugger!
I left the protective plastic film on my LG Plasma until only a month or two ago! Had it for 4 or so years now I think? The first one I had was stolen when it was just over a year old, insurance company were a real bitch to deal withJust unpacked the thing last night....so not yet
So after that experience I wanted that TV to last 10 years, treated it with the utmost care! Now that I have a little kid running around putting his fingers all over it, the time was obviously here to take the film off before he does and makes a mess!
Shouldn't cost too much for the first two. They will ream you for the drive train repair though.
Water pump bearing blew on my car last week, replaced it over the weekend along with another random water pipe towards the back of the engine that had a very minor leak. I think it only cost me $60 for the water pump and about 3 hours labour, not bad result and the car sounds great now.
okay I am going to name some of the games from 2012. You get the enjoyment of pointing out where they were hampered by having achievements.
1. Journey
2. The Walking Dead
3. XCOM: Enemy Unknown
4. Sleeping Dogs
5. Dishonored
6. Mass Effect 3
7. Borderlands 2
8. Kid Icarus: Uprising
9. Far Cry 3
10. Hotline Miami
11. Halo 4
12. Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward
13. Persona 4: The Golden
14. FTL: Faster Than Light
15. Xenoblade Chronicles
Also point out the games where turning off the achievement notifications doesn't alleviate the fact they have achievement tracking, and why.
Not really, because we've already established that the trend in game design you are blaming on achievements from this gen already existed in previous gens, with an increase in linearity starting from the PS2/Xbox era and worthless collectibles being in games since pretty much forever.
The onus is on you now to provide some examples or proof that achievements have really changed game design, otherwise everyone here will still keep thinking you have nothing.
Planet_JASE
Member
Achievements have ruined internet humour. It was more pure, back in my day. Less linear, more spontaneous.
We're still talking about trophies/cheevos?
Here, have some profiteering instead:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-20/consumers-paying-twice-as-carbon-emitters-compensated/4529268
Here, have some profiteering instead:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-20/consumers-paying-twice-as-carbon-emitters-compensated/4529268
I've already provided examples which were conveniently ignored. Games that give achievements for turning the system on, playing 5 minutes. I think a few of the examples include movie tie ins like the Avatar cartoon game, or maybe the blue alien one as well.
We now live in a market where people will choose to buy or rent cheap and easy games that have such achievements over games or versions that do not. That in principle shifts the balance onto releasing games that encourage getting more meta-points, rather than designing games that have rewards for progressing through the levels, be it a narrative or gameplay payoff.
If you cannot see in principle how that would harm game design, then there is no common ground here. This is completely different to previous generation games with in-game achievement lists of sort, like say, Ace Combat 2 which had medals for beating the missions on various difficulties. You actually got rewards for doing that, such as extra branching missions, more planes to fly, and in future games in the series, more customisation. That kind of bonus mentality in games is diminishing because once people get the 1000/1000 or platinum, the draw to come back is gone for a lot of people.
Either way, this is my last word on the matter since it's obvious some people would rather be flippantly dismissive of the issue. In a world where it's supposedly about choice, I'm apparently not allowed to have a choice because hamchan hasn't seen a bad achievement.
Also a bonus congratulations to kritz for missing the point with style. It's not about turning off the notification; it's about the implications for game design outlined above. If people had the ability to opt out altogether, just like uninstalling Home, the impetus for publishers to include them in games that don't need them or where no good reason exists, would diminish. Ideally making for better and more rewarding games.
We now live in a market where people will choose to buy or rent cheap and easy games that have such achievements over games or versions that do not. That in principle shifts the balance onto releasing games that encourage getting more meta-points, rather than designing games that have rewards for progressing through the levels, be it a narrative or gameplay payoff.
If you cannot see in principle how that would harm game design, then there is no common ground here. This is completely different to previous generation games with in-game achievement lists of sort, like say, Ace Combat 2 which had medals for beating the missions on various difficulties. You actually got rewards for doing that, such as extra branching missions, more planes to fly, and in future games in the series, more customisation. That kind of bonus mentality in games is diminishing because once people get the 1000/1000 or platinum, the draw to come back is gone for a lot of people.
Either way, this is my last word on the matter since it's obvious some people would rather be flippantly dismissive of the issue. In a world where it's supposedly about choice, I'm apparently not allowed to have a choice because hamchan hasn't seen a bad achievement.
Also a bonus congratulations to kritz for missing the point with style. It's not about turning off the notification; it's about the implications for game design outlined above. If people had the ability to opt out altogether, just like uninstalling Home, the impetus for publishers to include them in games that don't need them or where no good reason exists, would diminish. Ideally making for better and more rewarding games.
For ages, I just bludged tools off a mate who had everything I could ever need. I learnt most of what I know from him too. Most of the tools I own now I got dirt cheap when a local Mitre-10 closed down. It's handy just to buy tools when you need them and your collection will just grow naturally from there.
If you're from a farm then you'll know all about vehicle maintenance, more than I'll ever know. Cars these days are a piece of cake, check and change fluids when needed, keep an eye on general wear and tear and replace as needed. The real prick is the electronics, they can be a giant pain in the arse sometimes.
A mate of mines bike wouldn't start, it's a beautiful KTM that I'd kill myself on if I owned one and was younger and more stupid. The problem: dead battery. If it was a carbie, clutch start without a problem and replace battery at the first opportunity. Because of the electronics, the fuel injectors couldn't get power to make a clutch start effective. Beyond irritating.
Anyway, if you're right near a train station, that'll save you loads on general wear and tear. Plenty of exercise to be had too.
pieatorium
Member
Those are not examples of achievements ruining game design they are lazy achievements handed out for doing shit you would have done anyway.
I'm sure glad they decided to include that achievement for turning the game on rather than just not letting you turn the game on.
reptilescorpio
Member
He will just be starting to run around by the time X comes out and will keep trying to sneak a peak at the awesomeness
This is what I find hard to believe. Yes, there are achievement hunters that buy a bunch of these crap games for easy points. However, how much do they actually affect the market? I don't have the numbers, but I'd think that the proportion of this type of gamer to the average one is fairly low. And a lot of them aren't even buying the games, they rent them, or buy them used and sell them straight back after they get the points, so that gives the developers little incentive to change their games to target this demographic.
Edit: I also wanted to mention that I do agree that the amount of worthwhile unlockables has probably lowered since the introduction of achievements and trophies. That is an unfortunate side effect.
Did you just call Julia Gillard an idiot?
Where/how much was your stand? That'd be pretty much perfect for my home setup. Instead, I'm using a coffee table :/Can't believe the amount of work I can get done in a day if I don't access the internet.
If anyone is looking for a new TV, Costco has the Bravia HX75 55" for $1299. That's nearly $400 cheaper than anywhere else. I picked up one yesterday, looks amazing.
Oh, I didn't mean to scare you! Just saying, you're probably better off getting the smaller ones (blue) than the larger ones. I started off with the larger ones, but then when my brother ordered the smaller ones those actually fit me way better. Plus, with the clear plastic bit on the end, they're practically invisible once in.
Pro tip: Make sure you moisten them with a tiny bit of saliva between your fingers before inserting them. You don't want them dripping in it, Aliens-style, but they need to be a little bit slippery and soft.
You have provided no good examples. The "pressing start" achievement is an example of bad achievement design not bad game design. Whether you see that achievement or not would have no effect on the game's design, exactly like if Nintendo added an achievement for seeing Mario's freaky head at the start of Mario 64. That does not change how the game plays at all but you would somehow feel umbrage at some notification popping up giving you 20 points, which you can turn off too.
Less unlockables is because of the introduction of DLC rather than achievements.
Also, it should be your last word on this issue because you're wrong and not arguing against the points anyone is making. Turning off the achievement notifications is having a choice. Not including an achievement system is not giving gamers a choice. (other than not buying the console)
Do you think that could be a side effect of retailer specific DLC rather than achievement systems? If Gamestop give you a deal for providing them some unique pre order items, you might as well build a system of unlockables into the game.
Edit: beaten by a ham.
pieatorium
Member
20 hrs from now
Well as it happens, it's too late, a friend of mine just ordered a couple of sets of large ones for us. I will report back on the fitting! Thanks for the insertion tip.
wahey!
James Cameron's Avatar: The Game wasn't affected by having shitty achievements at all. That game would have existed with or without achievements.
Avatar: The Burning Earth actually has a story behind those achievements. Unfortunately I can't find it. Was in a reddit AMA at some point. The gist of it was that they originally tied the achievements just to story progression, but they ran into a problem where they didn't trigger. Because it was implemented so late in development, the team just said 'fuck it' and made the five easiest to test achievements they could. It wasn't about getting sales, or destroying the sanctity of achievements, or pandering to gamers. It was simply, they fucked up, Microsoft requires them to be in the game, they implemented achievements right bang at the end of development (like all games do for fuck's sake), so they just made ones that they could implement, test in a few seconds, and be done with.
If people want to buy shit games, it's their choice. Unfortunately, you don't get to stop people buying shit games just because you don't want them to. No, you don't get a choice in the matter. That isn't how choice works. You do not get to complain about people being anti-choice while simultaneously complaining that people choose to buy things you don't want them to.
Nobody is designing their game around having easy achievements. Nobody is going to pitch a game with zero content, 1000 easy achievement points, and just hope it sells. It's pure lunacy. No game encourages getting meta achievements. Unless you want to make the argument that Call of Duty weapon skin unlocks for getting 100 headshots with a weapon is an 'achievement' in this same sense. If that's so, you're welcome to make that case.
Well in Call of Duty you get weapon attachments and skins for completing their arbitrary metagame achievements which I just mentioned. In Alan Wake, one of the types of collectables genuinely adds content to the story. Those games tie some of those awards into system level achievements, while others are still relegated to the game itself.
Team Fortress 2 has a couple hundred achievements, but certainly isn't lacking for content. It has twice as many unlockables that can change how you play the game, or can change how your character appears aesthetically. And yet, it also has heaps and heaps of achievements. Some of which unlock items (only a few do this). Most are there just as arbitrary goals you can complete if you want to.
In uncharted, you unlocked a bunch of bonus renderers and models to play as in the game. You got collectables and other trinkets in multiplayer. There's loads and loads of bonus content. There are also achievements. Some of those achievements are awarded for getting the collectables, some aren't.
Now, my point is, the people who would play through uncharted 2 or 3 and call it quits after beating the story aren't going to stop playing early because of achievements. They might, however, get extra value from the game by playing it longer to get some.
They also might decide, hey, fuck the achievements, how about I play it to get the ingame bonus weapon attachment or player model. They'll probably still get an achievement from it, but who cares. Since they didn't need a pat in the back, they can turn the notifications off. Y'know. Or, maybe they just don't care. In either case, they've gotten more content out of the game from an aspect that games have had in them since the start of games existing. They've collected some bullshit and seen some easter eggs and now get to play with cheats activated or with a fat nathan drake model or something.
There is no negative side affect from that game having achievements. At no point did Naughty Dog subtract content from that game because they could just give 100 character text strings to the players with a little 20x20 .jpeg of a trophy.
Games as a whole aren't being affected negatively by having achievement systems. By the time a player has gotten 100% of achievements in a game, they will have already played the game longer than they intended to get them, unless it's a game where the achievements are just tied only to story progress (the walking dead), in which case... who cares? Achievements didn't affect that player's progression in the slightest. If the achievements didn't exist in the first place there would still be no additional motivation beyond the player's own desire to repeat that content. (And the player should have the desire since Walking Dead provides minor alternatives to situations based on your choice)
There is not a single scenario in existence where a player is going to play less of a game because they wanted to get all of the achievements. So what if the draw to go back is lessened after completing all of a game, including meta elements?
No game is going to have less content in it because they can drop in achievements. No, not even Avatar. Do you seriously think that Avatar would have 4 hours extra content and collectables and player skins if achievements didn't exist? No? Maybe you do. You should probably give some fucking examples because even when I'm trying to empathise with your argument you seem like a strawman.
there are bad achievements and there are good achievements you can turn them off and ignore them or you can leave them on and ignore them or you can embrace them.
You are not negatively affected by their existence and neither are games as a whole. Most games add achievements at the end of a game's lifecycle. Most games don't give forethought to them, for better or worse. The bad achievements don't remove anything from the game, the good achievements add playability to the game, if you don't like seeing the pat on the back which you mentioned so very often you can turn them off.
seriously don't know if you're self aware or not
No game is going to become more rewarding by removing a meta element to the game.
You have the option to opt out by not buying platforms that have platform wide rewards for playing games on their platform. And I'm going to take a wild guess and say you do that already.
DayZ wouldn't be less rewarding if it had achievements. STALKER, The Witcher are the same. If I got a popup in STALKER that said, "congratulations, you entered the scary tunnel", it'd be dumb and unneeded sure, but I wouldn't for a moment believe that the time they spent making that achievement would have been used to make the game any better. And also I could turn the notification off. I know you say that isn't the point you're making but you really should know you can turn them off.
y'all.
You missed the point again.
Didn't see what was being referred to until now. Thanks for the earlier link!
I've been using the Large size for quite a while, as it was the only one I could see when I originally purchased them. They work, but they stick out of the ears a bit since they can't be inserted as far as they should without behaving like plugs instead of attenuating the sound. I'm glad there's a smaller size available. Sold.
Edit: I forgot to mention how good live music sounds with these in. Aside from protecting hearing, the music is so much clearer (also some magical reverb cancellation). I also have to stop friends from yelling in my ear at concerts because it's painful when they do, I can hear them fine if they just speak normally.
2:15 PM - Kritz: so taking bets now on how vince will respond to my post
2:15 PM - Kritz: 1. not at all
2:15 PM - Kritz: 2. "you missed the point"
2:15 PM - Rezbit: with a serving of salt
2:15 PM - Rezbit: havent even read your post lol
2:15 PM - Kritz: 3. aqusations of me calling him a fanboy
2:15 PM - I: megadrive: ok, back in a tick with improved bot
2:15 PM - Rezbit: holy fuck man
2:15 PM - Kritz: 4. targeting my writing, saying I used fallacies or strawmen or something of the like
number 3 wins
wait shit number 2
crap
you missed the point
I wish it was easier to get long effort posts like that out of you Kritz.
Hmm, if both you and Shaneus are saying that I might buy a couple of regular sized ones too and compare.
Hmm, if both you and Shaneus are saying that I might buy a couple of regular sized ones too and compare.
Case in point.
pieatorium
Member
no bombcast has ruined my day
Is your point the fact achievements currently damage game design or is it the principle that it could?
Because at the moment I think ham/kritz have covered the first pretty comprehensively and that in itself almost proves the second. But who can say really. You don't seem willing to back down or even compromise with your own views based on reasoned argument.
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