Support NeoGAF

[Unknown Soldier]

LMAO that MS conference, what a joke. They introduced a car at a video games conference.

Guesses on the price of the 911 GT2 RS? I'm thinking $180,000.

 

[Evo X]

LMAO that MS conference, what a joke. They introduced a car at a video games conference.

Guesses on the price of the 911 GT2 RS? I'm thinking $180,000.

250k easy. One of my customers is getting it in white to match his 991.2 GT3 and 991 GT3RS

 

[GHG]

The GT2 would have been the most exciting thing at the conference if it wasn't for the new Metro game. What a bad way to reveal a car.

 

[Smokey]

The V-6 accord already makes like 300HP is the thing. That engine is underrated. Gets great gas mileage and sounds great. If you can stand the slushbox that SOB gets 35MPG highway. The J series is a great engine, best thing about my car by far. Going to be sad to see it go. The lack of a coupe is a damn shame, too. I can't see myself driving a CTR at all, lacks the proper dress up when you need it manners.

If it were me, I would have ditched the fancier suspension and gone with a detuned CTR engine making 250HP and a stronger transmission instead. Would have made for a much better performance gap, what with the smaller Civic models being faster than the old Si now.

I'll be really damn curious what the 2.0T in the accord makes. I assume it'll be something similar or north of the CTR, the only question is by how much. If it's lighter and in a smaller package than the J series V6, then maybe they can somewhat fix how nose heavy the current car is. The extra torque could be nice, too.

Regardless, with it being FWD there's not much to be done about straight line acceleration here. There won't be an LSD in it so expect the same 5.6 0-60 and 13.5 or so quarter mile the current car pulls.

So I have the V-6...it doesn't feel like it's around 300HP and I hate the transmission. Surely there are fixes for it in the aftermarket (Not familiar with aftermarket at all for my cars) being that it's a Honda?

 

[SliChillax]

LMAO that MS conference, what a joke. They introduced a car at a video games conference.

Guesses on the price of the 911 GT2 RS? I'm thinking $180,000.

180? Lol, knowing Porsche it'll be limited and incredibly expensive only to be bought by car collectors left in beautiful garages to age like fine wine so they can be sold later for more money.

 

[Christberg]

So I have the V-6...it doesn't feel like it's around 300HP and I hate the transmission. Surely there are fixes for it in the aftermarket (Not familiar with aftermarket at all for my cars) being that it's a Honda?

http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=1131834&page_number=1

260 HP at the wheels. SAE is at the crank so... should be a bit less than that but more than rated at 268.

I test drove a 4 door automatic before settling on the 2 door stick. I wasn't a fan of that configuration at all. I found that between the auto failing to downshift fast or far enough and the VCM it lacked the responsiveness I need. With the stick I can chirp the tires doing a 60-80 pass and do it in like 2-3 seconds.

There isn't a huge tuner market for these in terms of power but you can certainly suck more out of it with a CAI and exhaust mods.

 

[Anion]

Holy Shit.

They just unveiled the GT2RS at E3 during the Microsoft conference.

This absolute surprised me

Don't think the audience understood the significance judging by the Gaf comments though lol

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

180? Lol, knowing Porsche it'll be limited and incredibly expensive only to be bought by car collectors left in beautiful garages to age like fine wine so they can be sold later for more money.

There was a recent interview with a Porsche executive where he said they were trying to curb the collector behavior with new owners. Down the line maybe they'll become collectible, but they wanted owners to be driving the cars, and that they're watching what people do with them after purchase.

Sounds more sinister than it is I'm sure.

Evo, dude seriously has a GT3, GT3RS and is now getting a GT2RS? I don't get that sort of attitude. Even if I had a lot of money, collecting brand new cars seems like such a waste of time and effort. Not like you can drive each of them.

Also, tax the rich!

 

[OnkelC]

GT2RS is 260.000 EUR, has a production run of 1,000 vehicles and is reportedly sold out already.

 

[SliChillax]

There was a recent interview with a Porsche executive where he said they were trying to curb the collector behavior with new owners. Down the line maybe they'll become collectible, but they wanted owners to be driving the cars, and that they're watching what people do with them after purchase.

Sounds more sinister than it is I'm sure.

Evo, dude seriously has a GT3, GT3RS and is now getting a GT2RS? I don't get that sort of attitude. Even if I had a lot of money, collecting brand new cars seems like such a waste of time and effort. Not like you can drive each of them.

Also, tax the rich!

You can not force me what to do with my car when I buy it, I can sell it for trillions of dollars and Porsche can do nothing about it. I admire what the Porsche executive was saying, but there's nothing that can be done about it.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

You can not force me what to do with my car when I buy it, I can sell it for trillions of dollars and Porsche can do nothing about it. I admire what the Porsche executive was saying, but there's nothing that can be done about it.

On small run vehicles, though, you can give preference to buyers who you know drive the vehicles over buyers who are collectors or flippers.

 

[friday]

Miata friends: what are you guys running for shocks and springs?

I am thinking of upgrading to the FM Koni kit for my NB.

949's Xida Clubsports Gen 2. They are great. Kinda harsh for the street but they hookup real good.

The koni or bilsteins work well as long as you take it easy on the spring rates. I think the bilsteins go to crap with anything above 500 lb springs. I would recommend something like the ground control coilover kit. Having the ability to adjust the height is always a nice bonus.

 

[TylerD]

They sold the 996 the day before I was going to test drive it after it had been in inventory for 35 days. Probably would have been a good example as I saw extensive maintenance history and it only had 5K on the clutch with RMS and IMS bearing replaced.

I'm not going to bother with the one in town that is listed for 25K.

New shoes arrived for my ZHP: Continental ExtremeContact Sports

I'll get them mounted later this week if the rear trailing arm bushing tool I rented arrives. Then i'll do the tie rods and get an alignment done at the dealer ASAP

 

[Futaba]

Didn't get around to working on the car this weekend, had engineers in messing with the telecommunications to our area.

On the upside I now have a 10gbit internet connection to myself.

 

[Evo X]

The insanity has already begun.

A stock broker just offered my dealership $100k over for a GT2RS allocation. Lol

 

[burgerdog]

The insanity has already begun.

A stock broker just offered my dealership $100k over for a GT2RS allocation. Lol

Pay 100k over
Flip it for 250k on top of what he paid
?????
Profit

 

[boltz]

On small run vehicles, though, you can give preference to buyers who you know drive the vehicles over buyers who are collectors or flippers.

That's what Ford did with the application process for the new GT. I could see a lot of bad blood if Porsche decided to do something like that though.

They sold the 996 the day before I was going to test drive it after it had been in inventory for 35 days. Probably would have been a good example as I saw extensive maintenance history and it only had 5K on the clutch with RMS and IMS bearing replaced.

I'm not going to bother with the one in town that is listed for 25K.

New shoes arrived for my ZHP: Continental ExtremeContact Sports

I'll get them mounted later this week if the rear trailing arm bushing tool I rented arrives. Then i'll do the tie rods and get an alignment done at the dealer ASAP

Let us know how you like the tires - when my ExtremeContact DWs wear out, those are the replacements that I'm eyeing.

The insanity has already begun.

A stock broker just offered my dealership $100k over for a GT2RS allocation. Lol

We need a Porsche equivalent of the classic Nintendo "it prints money!" gif

 

[TylerD]

That's what Ford did with the application process for the new GT. I could see a lot of bad blood if Porsche decided to do something like that though.



Let us know how you like the tires - when my ExtremeContact DWs wear out, those are the replacements that I'm eyeing.



We need a Porsche equivalent of the classic Nintendo "it prints money!" gif

Will do! I found this good write up comparing them very favorably to the Mich PSS by racing driver Billy Johnson that was linked from a e46 forum thread when I was looking for reviews of the tires. http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/4456/TESTED-Continental-Tire-ExtremeContact-Sport.aspx

 

[Pinewood]

Pay 100k over
Flip it for 250k on top of what he paid
?????
Profit

You forgot "enjoy the salt in internet communities"

 

[YuriLowell]

This absolute surprised me

Don't think the audience understood the significance judging by the Gaf comments though lol

Probably because all 911s look the same.

 

[AlphaSnake]

Odd luck yesterday.

I took my car in yesterday to get the suspension installed and to get the oil changed. Car started a little weak, but then it again, because of the torrential rains all of last week I haven't been able to drive it as much. So I figured no big deal, it'll charge up the battery on the way to the dealer.

I pull up to the dealer, give them the keys, and the car doesn't start again hahaha. The battery is completely flat. The 'odd luck' of it is that the battery has been a concern to me before and fortunately it's under a 30 month warranty - it was replaced last 28 months ago. So I dodged a small little bullet there.

 

[Lionheart1827]

Odd luck yesterday.

I took my car in yesterday to get the suspension installed and to get the oil changed. Car started a little weak, but then it again, because of the torrential rains all of last week I haven't been able to drive it as much. So I figured no big deal, it'll charge up the battery on the way to the dealer.

I pull up to the dealer, give them the keys, and the car doesn't start again hahaha. The battery is completely flat. The 'odd luck' of it is that the battery has been a concern to me before and fortunately it's under a 30 month warranty - it was replaced last 28 months ago. So I dodged a small little bullet there.

I got really lucky with a warranty a few weeks ago. I have a 2008 Mazda3 and on Mother's day my transmission seemed to be screwed up when I was leaving my parents house. I got really worried that the transmission was broken, however I looked up online that the symptoms appeared to be the Transmission Control Unit. I had it towed to the dealer and apparently it was still under warranty, even after 68k miles and 9 years of owning the car. I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[AlphaSnake]

Just picked up the car, drives aces. The drop is perfect. Major shoutout to Futaba for ensuring me the ride won't become jarring or severely impacted. It's basically still the same ride (after all, same spring rate) just lower. As a result, it is considerably more composed when turning. Far less body roll than before.

So far, no funny squeaks or noises - drove it with my tech and then 15 miles home on the highway and local roads. The entrance and exit ramps were....fun. The alignment was fairly out of whack when I brought the car in, and the 0.75 drop seems to be the limit of what the stock alignment components are capable of withstanding. Anything beyond .75 would've required camber kits and the like.

I'll post pictures of the car once the rain goes away. It's shitty outside.

I got really lucky with a warranty a few weeks ago. I have a 2008 Mazda3 and on Mother's day my transmission seemed to be screwed up when I was leaving my parents house. I got really worried that the transmission was broken, however I looked up online that the symptoms appeared to be the Transmission Control Unit. I had it towed to the dealer and apparently it was still under warranty, even after 68k miles and 9 years of owning the car. I was pleasantly surprised.

Yeah, I'm really happy that all it cost me was 30 minutes of labor, basically. My tech highly recommends I set the car up with a trickle charger. So I may just do that.

 

[Futaba]

Just picked up the car, drives aces. The drop is perfect. Major shoutout to Futaba for ensuring me the ride won't become jarring or severely impacted. It's basically still the same ride (after all, same spring rate) just lower. As a result, it is considerably more composed when turning. Far less body roll than before.

So far, no funny squeaks or noises - drove it with my tech and then 15 miles home on the highway and local roads. The entrance and exit ramps were....fun. The alignment was fairly out of whack when I brought the car in, and the 0.75 drop seems to be the limit of what the stock alignment components are capable of withstanding. Anything beyond .75 would've required camber kits and the like.

I'll post pictures of the car once the rain goes away. It's shitty outside.

Nice! can't wait to see it now it's dropped!

With regards to the new suspension (I'll be general with this incase someone is going coils rather than just springs), after a couple hundred miles i'd suggest going over the bolts / locking rings / etc and checking that the torques are all still to spec and that the locking rings (if it has them) are still firmly in place, especially the tower mounting nuts.

It isn't super uncommon for something to work itself out of torque spec on a fresh install after it's had time to settle in, so it's best to be sure!

 

[jongkookie]

Odd luck yesterday.

Jaguar and batteries... hmmmmmmm.

Joking aside, excited to see the pics!

Everybody and their moms drops JDM or Germans but I haven't really seen a properly dropped Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag.

Also this suspension chat is making me want to finally swap my springs lol. I bought the springs and bumpstops back in November 2016 and I just haven't had the time to get it done(mostly because all the shops that can do it are closed on the weekends lol). I've already set some PTO at work just so I can get this done on a weekday haha.

 

[AlphaSnake]

Nice! can't wait to see it now it's dropped!

With regards to the new suspension (I'll be general with this incase someone is going coils rather than just springs), after a couple hundred miles i'd suggest going over the bolts / locking rings / etc and checking that the torques are all still to spec and that the locking rings (if it has them) are still firmly in place, especially the tower mounting nuts.

It isn't super uncommon for something to work itself out of torque spec on a fresh install after it's had time to settle in, so it's best to be sure!

Jaguar and batteries... hmmmmmmm.

Joking aside, excited to see the pics!

Everybody and their moms drops JDM or Germans but I haven't really seen a properly dropped Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag.

Also this suspension chat is making me want to finally swap my springs lol. I bought the springs and bumpstops back in November 2016 and I just haven't had the time to get it done(mostly because all the shops that can do it are closed on the weekends lol). I've already set some PTO at work just so I can get this done on a weekday haha.

It's nothing crazy, I can assure you of that. It sits about as low as an XKR-S from what I gather. I'll take some pics tomorrow.

 

[Evo X]

My friend has traded in his Aventador Roadster after only 6 months and 300 miles.

He signed the papers today, but not taking delivery until June 26th. Can't wait. I'm gonna take a day off work to hang out in the city and spend some time with him and the new machine.

Any one care to guess what it could be?

 

[ameratsu]

My friend has traded in his Aventador Roadster after only 6 months and 300 miles.

He signed the papers today, but not taking delivery until June 26th. Can't wait. I'm gonna take a day off work to hang out in the city and spend some time with him and the new machine.

Any one care to guess what it could be?

A fireplace to shovel money in?

 

[Futaba]

after only 6 months and 300 miles.

Any one care to guess what it could be?

With that sort of mileage over that sort of time i'm guessing a pushbike.

Anyway, works quiet because of E3 so i've been throwing together a model of my car, mainly so I can mess around and plan a custom widebody kit, but here are some renders of it now the models mostly finished.

Would do a bit more work on it but right now I'm going to stop being a lazy ass and go work on the real thing a bit, need to drop front coils about an inch and install the mu pads.
Will take it up somewhere nice and do some proper pics later today weather permitting.

 

[nabe_shogun]

My friend has traded in his Aventador Roadster after only 6 months and 300 miles.

He signed the papers today, but not taking delivery until June 26th. Can't wait. I'm gonna take a day off work to hang out in the city and spend some time with him and the new machine.

Any one care to guess what it could be?

You can only move up so far after something like that, so I'm going to guess a 1997 Toyota Camry.

Anyway, works quiet because of E3 so i've been throwing together a model of my car, mainly so I can mess around and plan a custom widebody kit, but here are some renders of it now the models mostly finished.


Would do a bit more work on it but right now I'm going to stop being a lazy ass and go work on the real thing a bit, need to drop front coils about an inch and install the mu pads.
Will take it up somewhere nice and do some proper pics later today weather permitting.

That looks good for something you've been throwing together. I take it you do that kind of thing professionally.

 

[Pinewood]

With that sort of mileage over that sort of time i'm guessing a pushbike.

Anyway, works quiet because of E3 so i've been throwing together a model of my car, mainly so I can mess around and plan a custom widebody kit, but here are some renders of it now the models mostly finished.



Would do a bit more work on it but right now I'm going to stop being a lazy ass and go work on the real thing a bit, need to drop front coils about an inch and install the mu pads.
Will take it up somewhere nice and do some proper pics later today weather permitting.

Ok now you have to tell me how did you do this, did you dl the model from someplace or build everything from scratch?

 

[Bandit1]

Just picked up the car, drives aces. The drop is perfect. Major shoutout to Futaba for ensuring me the ride won't become jarring or severely impacted. It's basically still the same ride (after all, same spring rate) just lower. As a result, it is considerably more composed when turning. Far less body roll than before.

So far, no funny squeaks or noises - drove it with my tech and then 15 miles home on the highway and local roads. The entrance and exit ramps were....fun. The alignment was fairly out of whack when I brought the car in, and the 0.75 drop seems to be the limit of what the stock alignment components are capable of withstanding. Anything beyond .75 would've required camber kits and the like.

I'll post pictures of the car once the rain goes away. It's shitty outside.

Nice, glad it worked out for you!

My friend has traded in his Aventador Roadster after only 6 months and 300 miles.

He signed the papers today, but not taking delivery until June 26th. Can't wait. I'm gonna take a day off work to hang out in the city and spend some time with him and the new machine.

Any one care to guess what it could be?

I'm gonna go all out and say 918 Spyder.

With that sort of mileage over that sort of time i'm guessing a pushbike.

Anyway, works quiet because of E3 so i've been throwing together a model of my car, mainly so I can mess around and plan a custom widebody kit, but here are some renders of it now the models mostly finished.


Would do a bit more work on it but right now I'm going to stop being a lazy ass and go work on the real thing a bit, need to drop front coils about an inch and install the mu pads.
Will take it up somewhere nice and do some proper pics later today weather permitting.

Wow, render looks awesome. I like your design on the widebody. I'm curious, on these widebody builds do they simply use wheel spacers to get the wheels out to the fenders, or is it more complicated than that?

 

[Futaba]

That looks good for something you've been throwing together. I take it you do that kind of thing professionally.

Yup, not directly, but what I do at work requires the same software experience.

Ok now you have to tell me how did you do this, did you dl the model from someplace or build everything from scratch?

Mostly from scratch, while there are some FRS models floating around the net they're usually pretty low quality or cut a lot of corners, of course, some elements are off other projects though, for example the environment for the one below is a sample scene from VRED.

Wow, render looks awesome. I like your design on the widebody. I'm curious, on these widebody builds do they simply use wheel spacers to get the wheels out to the fenders, or is it more complicated than that?

Thanks! but the widebody design isn't entirely mine, it's a clone of the rocketbunny v1 kit, i'm using it as a baseline for my own since it has the right arch width to properly house 11J wheels with the correct offset, as well as the cut templates for the original arches to house the wider wheels.

As for how people run them, the common way is to simply cut out the arches and slap thick spacers on, personally I don't like that approach because the balance of the wheel gets fucked up because the weight point isnt where the wheel was designed to take the weight, thus puts abnormal pressures on your hubs bearings and drives.

The correct way, if there is such a thing, is to run wheels wide enough for the new arch width, with the correct offset, and, normally, running a stronger hub unit, in addition to that you could also run fully wider tracked parts from a compatible car to space out the hub itself so the actual mounting points shift, but that's more the approach you take when you're custom fabricating stuff and have the time/money to do it, generally most people who dont even want the extra cost of a new wheelset, will just slap thick spacers on.

Here's a 4K render of the model with a better environment in place.

 

[matmanx1]

My friend has traded in his Aventador Roadster after only 6 months and 300 miles.

He signed the papers today, but not taking delivery until June 26th. Can't wait. I'm gonna take a day off work to hang out in the city and spend some time with him and the new machine.

Any one care to guess what it could be?

Hmm I'm gonna go Mclaren something. Let us know!

 

[Fallout-NL]

I'd have to be really fucking busy to not do more than 300 miles over 6 months in an Aventador.

 

[adamsapple]

Guys, I need some general advise.

I recently had to scrap my 2002 Toyota Camry (was bought used) and now am in the market for a new consumer level car.

I am looking at some real good deals for 2014 model Corolla L and LE's in Koons Tyson's Corner (VA). I know Corolla's are a little smaller in size compared to Camry's but have better mileage etc, I also know I can just as well go test drive the cars before making a decision.

I wanted some opinions from Gaffers well versed here. How similar/different is the Camry to Corolla or vice versa experience.

 

[nabe_shogun]

Wow, render looks awesome. I like your design on the widebody. I'm curious, on these widebody builds do they simply use wheel spacers to get the wheels out to the fenders, or is it more complicated than that?

As Futaba already said, when you go widebody, you then usually buy wheels that are wider and lower offset that will fill out the fenders.

I did the same on my 240sx, so now I can shove huge wheels and tires under the fenders.

 

[boltz]

Will do! I found this good write up comparing them very favorably to the Mich PSS by racing driver Billy Johnson that was linked from a e46 forum thread when I was looking for reviews of the tires. http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/4456/TESTED-Continental-Tire-ExtremeContact-Sport.aspx

Yeah, that's a great in-depth write up and that's what got me hyped about the tires!

My friend has traded in his Aventador Roadster after only 6 months and 300 miles.

He signed the papers today, but not taking delivery until June 26th. Can't wait. I'm gonna take a day off work to hang out in the city and spend some time with him and the new machine.

Any one care to guess what it could be?

911 GT2 RS deliveries aren't starting then are they My guess is that you got some sort of Porsche hookup for him.

With that sort of mileage over that sort of time i'm guessing a pushbike.

Anyway, works quiet because of E3 so i've been throwing together a model of my car, mainly so I can mess around and plan a custom widebody kit, but here are some renders of it now the models mostly finished.



Would do a bit more work on it but right now I'm going to stop being a lazy ass and go work on the real thing a bit, need to drop front coils about an inch and install the mu pads.
Will take it up somewhere nice and do some proper pics later today weather permitting.

Awesome render man!

 

[SliChillax]

I'd have to be really fucking busy to not do more than 300 miles over 6 months in an Aventador.

Or you might have better cars to drive. My friend who owns an F12, bought an Aventador and really hated it. Said it's the worst decisicion he's ever done, the Ferrari drove so much better it wasnt even close. He immediately sold the Lambo to his sister and has been happy ever since.

 

[boltz]

Guys, I need some general advise.

I recently had to scrap my 2002 Toyota Camry (was bought used) and now am in the market for a new consumer level car.

I am looking at some real good deals for 2014 model Corolla L and LE's in Koons Tyson's Corner (VA). I know Corolla's are a little smaller in size compared to Camry's but have better mileage etc, I also know I can just as well go test drive the cars before making a decision.

I wanted some opinions from Gaffers well versed here. How similar/different is the Camry to Corolla or vice versa experience.

If all you want is a reliable econobox, the Corolla will serve that purpose well as it uses the same power train from the last generation Corolla. And you'll that it's pretty spacious when compared to a 2002 Camry. But it's also slow and IMO one of the worse looking cars in the segment. The current gen Civic seems to be the best of the compact bunch, so take a look at those as well.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

2017 Honda Civic Type R Review (Engineering Explained)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc_-DIxdn0A

TLDR: The car is pretty much perfection.

*edit* Bonus review, very in-depth. (Redline Reviews)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFhd2Ubaagw

 

[adamsapple]

If all you want is a reliable econobox, the Corolla will serve that purpose well as it uses the same power train from the last generation Corolla. And you'll that it's pretty spacious when compared to a 2002 Camry. But it's also slow and IMO one of the worse looking cars in the segment. The current gen Civic seems to be the best of the compact bunch, so take a look at those as well.

Thanks, will definitely keep an eye out on Civic deals too

 

[m_shortpants]

2017 Honda Civic Type R Review (Engineering Explained)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc_-DIxdn0A

TLDR: The car is pretty much perfection.

God damn. Honda is back.

 

[sfedai0]

Man, I would so get Type-R but thanks to the R sharing a lot of similarities with the rest of the civic lineup, theft is a huge concern. Its a flashback to the EM1 Si and DC2-R era.

 

[Stinkles]

Man, I would so get Type-R but thanks to the R sharing a lot of similarities with the rest of the civic lineup, theft is a huge concern. Its a flashback to the EM1 Si and DC2-R era.

It will be the new Integra. Basicalily every time you see one it will be freshly stolen.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

Isn't it quite a lot more difficult to steal cars now than it used to be?

 

[Stinkles]

Isn't it quite a lot more difficult to steal cars now than it used to be?

Sure but Integra thieves would also strip cars on site so you may end up with some of your car unstolen.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

Sure but Integra thieves would also strip cars on site so you may end up with some of your car unstolen.

All I can do is laugh. Things are crazy. Just like the S2000 seats now that I think about it.

 

[sfedai0]

Isn't it quite a lot more difficult to steal cars now than it used to be?

No amount of theft deterrence will be enough when they can just flatbed it away.

 

[Ty4on]

My friend has traded in his Aventador Roadster after only 6 months and 300 miles.

He signed the papers today, but not taking delivery until June 26th. Can't wait. I'm gonna take a day off work to hang out in the city and spend some time with him and the new machine.

Any one care to guess what it could be?

993 GT2? ;o