The ones who try to co-opt the movement, certainly.
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Black Lives Matter shuts down a Bernie Sanders rally
- Thread starter soleil
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Subpar Spatula
Banned
It's like discussing music and saying X isn't doing well. You should be able to say at least one person who is doing well so we can understand the requirements.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I mean, look at it the other way round: whoever wrote that sign was probably pretty aware that those rules would look pretty drastic, they must have done it for good reason: presumably because people doing what those rules say not to had been a problem in the past. And that's an indictment of the white community, not the black one.
Ugh, for fucks sake so far I support Hillary Goddamn Clinton but who knows what'll happen between now and next November. But who I support has nothing to do with this because if the same thing happened to Hillary, and she responded the same way Bernie is, I'd say she's also being an idiot.
Last I checked, this thread was about #BlackLivesMatter, Bernie Sanders, BLM interrupting his rallies, and how he's responded to that. But now it's going to devolve into a dozen fucking questions about why I support Hillary Clinton, which is completely off topic.
That varies from person to person though. It's a subjective assessment of a person's performance and I can't say why one person prefers one person running for a nomination more than another.
kame-sennin
Member
I personally support disruption of Bernie's speeches because I support the disruption of all speeches by all candidates in both parties. I think BLM (and a whole host of other causes) take precedence over the stump speeches of would-be oligarchs. U.S. electoral politics are a farce. Activists busting in and chanting is actually the only substantive political discussion happening at these rallies. I personally wouldn't vote for any of these people, but I do like using their platform to help get an important message out.
Because activist movements are more important* than electoral politics.
*By that I mean that they have any importance at all.
To be fair, I'm also sick of seeing other Bernie supporters do exactly what BLM protestors say they don't need to hear: Bring up Bernie's march on Civil Rights and use it as an argument to rest on his laurels. Thatmarch should only be brought up to prove sincerity in his current stance, not as an excuse to lack a modern, cohesive plan. With more than candidate presenting a plan, Bernie's record on Civil Rights should only used as the "tie breaker," proving he was always part of the solution and not the problem.
That being said, yes it seems that no matter what Bernie does, he doesn't get the support.
"Have a current plan moving forward!"
He has one.
"Have a non-economic plan moving forward!"
Done.
"Be vocal about having a non-economic plan moving forward!"
Okay, no problem.
"Be vocal about having a non-economic plan moving forward and put all your ideas together so it's one big cohesive message!"
Yep, here you go.
"Still not voting for him!"
Subpar Spatula
Banned
And that's fine. All it does is open the dialogue to where people know where you're coming from. It helps us understand and better engage.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That's fair. What do you want to see from Sanders? I mean, if protestors do this again, which seems likely, how does he respond? I thought Symone Sanders did a pretty good response, and I liked Bernie Sanders' material on racial justice here. I might be wrong but I feel like Sanders' problem is largely messaging and not actual policy proposals, so how does he get his message to the point it wins your vote?
dream
Member
I think there are a lot of white people who take up pet causes and remake them in their own vision as a form of validation. And I certainly understand how anyone involved in the BLM movement would be appalled by a white person co-opting the cause and trying to appropriate a voice that isn't theirs. But the flip side of this is that the rules are so inherently divisive that it's damaging to the cause.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
So what do they do? If they don't have them there, they get overruled by pushy white liberals. If they do put them there, they alienate frail white liberals. It seems like a lose/lose for the black community to me, created by the fact that white liberals can't go "well, I feel a bit hurt by the rules but I understand why they're needed" and move on.
No, that's not good enough. Who are you voting for if Sanders isn't good enough? If you people dare to complain about Sanders in any way, then really you are just damaging your own cause. If you aren't kissing our great lord and saviour Bernie's feet, then you're basically making black lives worse. Everyone knows that you can't criticize presidential candidates for anything, apart from Hilary of course.
What exactly does this even mean, who is he supposed to bow down before? It's not like the guy has been disrespectful.
His biggest offense seems to be that he was not clear enough about how he wants to fight racism. (And apparently that info can be found nowadays)
jakonovski
Member
The dirty little secret here is that most people don't vote very rationally, and when it comes to emotional manipulation, the richest PR agencies win. Hence the Bushton dynasty, which will continue again after the brief Obama shaped outlier.
shit, I can't do hands up?
I guess I'll just stand in the back of the march.
I hate to be in the position of making excuses for this, but black supremacy (of which this is a clear example) is a reaction to hundreds of years of terrible mistreatment, mistreatment that's pervasive and ongoing. It's understandable when taken as such.
But we need you. When you care about black lives, and we can change the public consciousness on the subject, then the policies will follow. So I regard the images you posted as not being constructive in the debate.
Part of that, about this not being about police militarization or class warfare, is outright WRONG. These issues are intertwined totally with this one. Sigh...
The problem is that Hillary and Bernie are running against each other so criticizing one and not the other clearly has an unfair effect.
And it's 100% relevant to look at other candidates and ask how come they get your support and Bernie doesn't? How has their record and plan on race been better?
I am asking to understand. I'm not trying to argue for you to change your mind. By all means vote for her. I'd just like to know how Hillary's earned your support after pushing the "tough on crime", mass incarceration policies that basically made this problem? And she skipped Netroots and gave her staff time to craft her message, something O'Malley and Sanders didn't have.
Sanders has a plan AND he was never a part of the problem the way Hillary has been, so I'm genuinely curious how Clinton has your support?
Again, I'm NOT going to tell you to change your mind on anything. Just want to understand. PM me if you want, so you don't have to face attacks from other Bernie supporters.
dream
Member
I dunno. Some sort of compromise, I guess? I can understand asking white people to not lead cheers at a black rally, but I don't think it's a terrible idea to allow non-blacks to do the hands up and I can't breathe as a gesture of solidarity.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That's fair. I'm not black. I have some minority experience, but not that specific one. I can't comment on why those specific things were ruled against it. But at least you can understand there's probably a depth to these things you're unaware of.
Criticize away, but if your criticisms are ignoring verifiable fact, it will be pointed out.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Can you provide videos/speeches and links too all of those current "Bernie have" topics. Not sure if I've seen them but I'd like to.
There was one posted on this thread on this page or the last page where he talks about some issues and then ends it on a talk about his plans on fixing race problems.
It's the most comprehensive one. In the past he only gives his plans here and there. The BLM protests did accomplish the feat of getting him to put them all together in a cohesive speech so people don't have to look for it piecemeal. The question is, will the support go to the candidate with both a) a current plan and b) a record that shows he was never part of the problem?
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Most of the rules are ok I just don't get the stay in the back and to the sides. Why try to separate where people are in protests ;doesn't it look better if their a large mix of people of all races mingled together in a protest to show this is a cause everybody should strive for.
You're not following me.
Understand: I can't criticize Hillary because this has not happened to her (yet). Now, when she gets bum-rushed on the stage and handles it poorly, come seek me out and I'll give you my opinion. But until then, Hillary has nothing to do with my opinion here.
See the problem in this thread is that posters are trying to turn it into yet another general thread about the candidates, when really it's about something very specific: Bernie Sanders, and his rallies being interrupted by BLM. That's it.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe, but the inverse of that implies that black people only get listened to if white people are there too. The whole point is about making black lives matter just as much as white ones; for the movement to really succeed it needs to succeed as a black movement because that will truly mean black voices are valued in and of themselves. It might take longer that way, but it is a valid decision.
I'll be honest. Watching that video I find it really hard to take issue with anyone. First off those girls did intrude upon Sanders' rally. They didn't do a good job negotiating with the event managers. Bernie stepped back to allow them a platform, but when the manager tried to basically explain what was going on, they got impatient and started demanding a chance to speak. They got even more visibly upset when security began approaching, somehow entirely forgetting that they were intruders. But the manager continued to waste time, and tried to basically stick it to them for being ostentatious.The longer he let it drag on the worst it got. The girls lacked tact and awareness for what they were doing, and the manager tried to fight a micro battle to prove to everyone that they were in the wrong for approaching it with the manners that they did. Clearly a lot of egos being thrown around and a complete loss of focused on navigating the whole situation.
In reality everyone had in their mind a different concept of what it was they were doing, and what it meant. Nobody really rectified these conflicting perspectives.
Honestly I think it's pretty remiss they way people in here are trying to make this out to be a litmus test for Bernie Sanders' failing to address the issues surrounding police brutality. It's also a terrible way to assert that somehow BLM is a failed movement. It was a few individuals who poorly handled their activism, but were also confronted by challenging inconsiderate individuals. It's no surprise the whole thing broke down in a matter of seconds.
In reality everyone had in their mind a different concept of what it was they were doing, and what it meant. Nobody really rectified these conflicting perspectives.
Honestly I think it's pretty remiss they way people in here are trying to make this out to be a litmus test for Bernie Sanders' failing to address the issues surrounding police brutality. It's also a terrible way to assert that somehow BLM is a failed movement. It was a few individuals who poorly handled their activism, but were also confronted by challenging inconsiderate individuals. It's no surprise the whole thing broke down in a matter of seconds.
dream
Member
But then it starts getting weirdly Jim Crow-y.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That's fair, but this is very unlikely to happen to Hillary because she keeps quite tight security at her events and avoids grassroots associations altogether. Bernie can't do the former and won't do the latter, so he's always going to be more prone to protests of this nature than Hillary is, so he'll always get more criticism. What would you think if Bernie tried to get better security and stopped attending grassroots events too?
EDIT: Sorry if I made that slightly too comparative. You can ignore the first two sentences, and just focus on the last.
It's certainly true that if two black protesters in Seattle is enough to make you run away with your tail between your legs. Then maybe being a left-wing president, where all your policies will be met with drowning opposition, isn't for you. It's also true that this incident has driven certain Bernie stans into tin-foil hat wearing tantrums, trying to pin this to some sort of Pro-Hilary conspiracy, and going on some 'black people are screwing themselves' BS that wouldn't look out of place during FOX News' coverage of Baltimore.
Political threads about current candidates are always in context of the bigger picture concerning the presidential race. What are your thoughts on Hillary being a huge proponent of the "tough on crime" policies that led to the things the BLM movement is protesting?
If we keep it constrained to that specific area then there's not really much we can talk about.
This bugs me. I'm a black man and have heard Bernie on the radio for years talking and voting with the same views he has today. I agree with him. He is not running to be king or trying to lead the NAACP but President of a capitalistic country. His job is politics and big money has hurt this country for most Americans. This is seen in the many income inequality graphs showing where wealh has been distributed.
I feel that if we take away of those problems, money can flow back to schools which will help my people. It will be on us, black Americans and really all Americans to take what should be ours (better education & opportunities) and improve ourselves. Better schools is a big key to that and big money going to the 1% isn't helping at all.
I see Bernie at least trying to help the way a president of the US can. Clinton seems to be politically motivated.
Seems like your interpretation of it, not actual fact. He left the stage after his time expired because he had another event to attend to, which 15,000 people were waiting at.
Your response is pure emotion, not fact.
I really don't think it is outside of Bernie's ability to beef up his security. All he would need are 4 to 5 goon looking dudes posted around his stage to keep this from happening.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Okay. What happens when the next set of photos to make the media is Bernie's security bundling black protestors off stage? I'm probably missing something here, but I genuinely don't understand why that makes him look good.
I personally don't think it would make him look as bad as he does now. A politician on a stage in front of a huge crowd can argue the need for security. Not so much how weak he comes off in the face of these protesters.
jakonovski
Member
I'd simplify it to this: campaigning on openness is a loser's game in the US. You guys lack the tradition of non-plastic non-corporate candidates upsetting the balance.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
So if he starts actually ignoring and silencing this movement it's better than what he's doing now? You want progress but rather that movement be out of sight, out of mind? My mind is full of fuck.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Hmm. I just feel like I disagree with you here and I'm not really sure how to resolve it. Sanders' whole electoral strength comes from the fact he's supposed to be outside the political caste and can connect with people. I don't think it does him any favours to cut himself off from people. I also don't really understand how #blacklivesmatter is helped more by having their protestors bundled off stage than they are now. I mean, I understand that it's important for presidential candidates to appear strong, but surely there's better ways to assert your strength than to be an old, white, relatively wealthy man denying a voice to young, black, underpriviliged women?
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I feel bad for Bernie...
These people are idiots.
gutter_trash
Banned
shit, I can't do hands up?
I guess I'll just stand in the back of the march.
pushing away left wing college educated whites at the same time saying that blue collar working class uneducated white should not be talked about... hmmmmm good luck with that
How did he come across weak in the face of these protesters? What is there to be proven by being strong?
If he can't take on these people how's he gonna face up to Putin when he grabs his microphone!
Bernie Sanders- an oligarch.
Attitudes like this are Gamergate-esque radical hatred.
As for beefing up security- it would have been a really bad look at Bernie's guys cracked heads.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Bernie Sanders has a zero chance of getting that Superbowl ring back.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
If he can't shut up and strong arm black activists now, how can we as a country ever really make progress on racial equality?
This is the sort of stuff I'm talking about. How dare you criticize our dear Bernie, clearly you just like plastic fake candidates. No middle ground. And then you throw your hands up in the air and wonder why people are turned off.
LaserBuddha
Member
I dont even know where to start with what you don't understand.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
i knew gamergate was behind this
PhoenixDark
Banned
shit, I can't do hands up?
I guess I'll just stand in the back of the march.
I'm going to assume this isn't the view of most BLM organizations, however it does highlight the growing insularity of far left groups - and also highlights why they haven't been successful and won't be in the future. It's a race to the bottom with no basis in logic. Pure emotional bullshit.
Didn't you get the memo, Trump is now an ally of gamergate.
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