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[Subpar Spatula]

This is the sort of stuff I'm talking about. How dare you criticize our dear Bernie, clearly you just like plastic fake candidates. No middle ground. And then you throw your hands up in the air and wonder why people are turned off.

You can be critical of Bernie. The problem is why be critical of the things about Bernie that he's already on board with. People have been detailing this a lot in this thread but then the goal moves to, "he needs to be communicate better".

OK. He has been since netroots. People have been asking what is needed for you to vote Bernie. The answer is been communicate better. OK. He has since then. Why still the indecisiveness? Why lend support or defend a protest that, by all understanding and information out there, has been remedied since the last one?

If Bernie does more and BLM protests his next rally, what should he do then?

 

[alstein]

I'm going to assume this isn't the view of most BLM organizations, however it does highlight the growing insularity of far left groups - and also highlights why they haven't been successful and won't be in the future. It's a race to the bottom with no basis in logic. Pure emotional bullshit.

This is a big reason why I support Bernie- he gets beyond that. The insularity of the far left is something the left has to fight and fight now, else it will get hijacked Tea Party-style.

To me, a vote for Bernie is a vote that says put economic issues first.

 

[dramatis]

I think at this point we can call it like it is: This isn't actually about Sanders for most people in this thread; It's about hyper sensitivity to criticism and subsequently defending BLM, regardless of how self defeating, misdirected and fucking stupid their protests are becoming. The goal posts on what Sanders should do has moved a hundred miles an hour.

I would argue that the hyper sensitivity to criticism applies to Bernie supporters too. It took so many posts for supporters to pull anything other than the "civil rights activist in the 60s" and "marched with MLK" arguments. Lots of lashing out against Hillary and O'Malley.

They also carry around an attitude like this,

The dirty little secret here is that most people don't vote very rationally, and when it comes to emotional manipulation, the richest PR agencies win. Hence the Bushton dynasty, which will continue again after the brief Obama shaped outlier.

implying that everyone else is stupid, and that they know better. That their cause is the one that everyone else should support, that their candidate is the one that will help the dissatisfied the most, so those who are dissatisfied should just get in line.

Yet, there are a lot of Bernie Sanders supporters here that I don't see posting in political threads or PoliGAF. They seem like they're only active for the presidential cycle, while the people who actually know better are consistently following politics daily without letting up. It's pretty ridiculous for some posters to be reaming the long timers, who have a lot more knowledge of how the system works, what the current events are, and how the data reads.

It is not helping Bernie's campaign to have that sort of attitude towards people who might have a problem with Bernie. In politics, since the candidate is the choice of certain people, how those people act can unintentionally influence how others see the candidate.

Sanders reportedly had another 15k crowd at the rally in Seattle (after the one mentioned in the OP), but I saw a picture of that crowd, and it was a sea of white (Seattle has a 'persons of color' population of 33.7%). Obama won in 2008 through a coalition of voters. If Sanders can purportedly pull off an upset like Obama, where is his coalition? You can't take the black vote for granted in the primaries.

 

[Maridia]

This is a big reason why I support Bernie- he gets beyond that. The insularity of the far left is something the left has to fight and fight now, else it will get hijacked Tea Party-style.

To me, a vote for Bernie is a vote that says put economic issues first.

Getting hijacked tea party style would be incredible. We'd control congress.

 

[Valhelm]

Getting hijacked tea party style would be incredible. We'd control congress.

I'm actually not sure if the Tea Party has helped the Republican Party long-term. At best, it seems to have done nothing other than stave-off largely inevitable changed driven by demographic shift and cultural evolution.

 

[RyanDG]

Getting hijacked tea party style would be incredible. We'd control congress.

And then we'd get the Donald Trump of the left. I'm not sure if this would be a good thing or not lol.

 

[Maninthemirror]

at this point folks in the BLM movement are doing harm to the BLM movement. Bernie Sanders has to treat everyone equally and from what I have seen is, like most democrats, listen to the concerns and address the concerns without giving special treatment to any group.

 

[jakonovski]

I would argue that the hyper sensitivity to criticism applies to Bernie supporters too. It took so many posts for supporters to pull anything other than the "civil rights activist in the 60s" and "marched with MLK" arguments. Lots of lashing out against Hillary and O'Malley.

They also carry around an attitude like this,

implying that everyone else is stupid, and that they know better. That their cause is the one that everyone else should support, that their candidate is the one that will help the dissatisfied the most, so those who are dissatisfied should just get in line.

Yet, there are a lot of Bernie Sanders supporters here that I don't see posting in political threads or PoliGAF. They seem like they're only active for the presidential cycle, while the people who actually know better are consistently following politics daily without letting up. It's pretty ridiculous for some posters to be reaming the long timers, who have a lot more knowledge of how the system works, what the current events are, and how the data reads.

It is not helping Bernie's campaign to have that sort of attitude towards people who might have a problem with Bernie. In politics, since the candidate is the choice of certain people, how those people act can unintentionally influence how others see the candidate.

Sanders reportedly had another 15k crowd at the rally in Seattle (after the one mentioned in the OP), but I saw a picture of that crowd, and it was a sea of white (Seattle has a 'persons of color' population of 33.7%). Obama won in 2008 through a coalition of voters. If Sanders can purportedly pull off an upset like Obama, where is his coalition? You can't take the black vote for granted in the primaries.

Bernie's got zero chance, but as someone put it, his main utility to civil rights is to threaten Hillary so that she leans that way to get those black votes. Which she doesn't have to do now, since Bernie's become the enemy du jour and is rapidly falling apart. She can just keep running on the old #BlackLivesInOrangeMatter. Because who's the alternative? Donald fucking Trump?

This dynamic is of course all fucked up, but that's what two party systems do to a country.

 

[linsivvi]

And then we'd get the Donald Trump of the left. I'm not sure if this would be a good thing or not lol.

Heh Donald Trump of the left would be Donald Trump 15 years ago. That person disappeared.

 

[Brakke]

I came across this on accident, didn't realize it was the Sanders rally, thought it was some counter-programming or pre-rally or something. It sucks to bully a guy off his own stage but whatever. Everything she said while I stuck around was right and reasonable.

 

[Indicate]

I'm going to assume this isn't the view of most BLM organizations, however it does highlight the growing insularity of far left groups - and also highlights why they haven't been successful and won't be in the future. It's a race to the bottom with no basis in logic. Pure emotional bullshit.

Most BLM protests aren't like this, I hope people understand. The only other protest that was similar that I can think of was the BLM Toronto protest last year. It created a lot of negative press and infighting between BLM supporters in Toronto.

 

[Aurongel]

Even if I agree with their political agenda that doesn't excuse them from being opportunistic assholes using someone else's limelight as their own political soapbox.

It makes their cause seem more petty than just.

 

[Boke1879]

at this point folks in the BLM movement are doing harm to the BLM movement. Bernie Sanders has to treat everyone equally and from what I have seen is, like most democrats, listen to the concerns and address the concerns without giving special treatment to any group.

So what the BLM movement is doing today holding rallies for the one year anniversary of Mike Browns death is harming the movement as well?

 

[BeerSnob]

I came across this on accident, didn't realize it was the Sanders rally, thought it was some counter-programming or pre-rally or something. It sucks to bully a guy off his own stage but whatever. Everything she said while I stuck around was right and reasonable.

Including calling the liberal Seattillites (Seatlleannes, Seattlese?) in attendance white supremacists? Do they go around burning peace signs in peoples lawns?

 

[Boke1879]

Even if I agree with their political agenda that doesn't excuse them from being opportunistic assholes using someone else's limelight as their own political soapbox.

It makes their cause seem more petty than just.

Yup. It's truly petty that black lives continue to be lost at the hands of the law for what seems like every single day.

As a black person it often feels like people will support us...until our movement or grievances become too disruptive to the established way.

 

[Big Green Anus]

shit, I can't do hands up?

I guess I'll just stand in the back of the march.

I thought this was photoshoped I'm hoping more prominent members of the BLM shuts down the people that believes in this. It's going to hurt some of the movement.

 

[Brakke]

Including calling the liberal Seattillites (Seatlleannes, Seattlese?) in attendance white supremacists? Do they go around burning peace signs in peoples lawns?

Seattillites is right. I didn't stick around for the whole spiel, I don't know what the context was there.

 

[Bodacious]

I feel bad for Bernie...

These people are idiots.

$13,500 two-tone Submariner there.

Life is hard.

 

[Aurongel]

Yup. It's truly petty that black lives continue to be lost at the hands of the law for what seems like every single day.

As a black person it often feels like people will support us...until our movement or grievances become too disruptive to the established way.

Yeesh, that's an incredibly surface-level interpretation of my post. Of course I don't personally find their political message petty, I already mentioned that I agree with it. I said that making a spectacle about it in this way will make them seem petty to many people. There's a right way of going about this and making a disruptive spectacle out of it isn't the answer. This will just add fuel to the Fox News narrative that BLM is just some anarchistic consortium of thugs.

That doesn't help anyone.

 

[jakonovski]

$13,500 two-tone Submariner there.

Life is hard.

Or a $50 Invicta. Like the one I have.

 

[K.Sabot]

I can't be the only one reading this and the black culture thread side by side, right?

This is the real fun to be had.

 

[entremet]

$13,500 two-tone Submariner there.

Life is hard.

Could be a knock off.

 

[Mxrz]

Didn't think it was that bad until I read some articles and saw the stuff they were saying to Sanders and the crowd. Screw these assholes.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Or a $50 Invicta. Like the one I have.

Either way she has a "scrap the cap" sticker on her shirt.

 

[AxelFoley]

This is fucking embarrassing, do they not understand that this is only making the black community look more aggressive?

You serious with this? FOH

 

[Boke1879]

Yeesh, that's an incredibly surface-level interpretation of my post. Of course I don't personally find their political message petty, I already mentioned that I agree with it. I said that making a spectacle about it in this way will make them seem petty to many people. There's a right way of going about this and making a disruptive spectacle out of it isn't the answer. This will just add fuel to the Fox News narrative that BLM is just some anarchistic consortium of thugs.

That doesn't help anyone.

I should have prefaced. I'm not trying to attack you. But this is just an observation I've seen on twitter from others. Sorry if you felt attack. I truly didn't mean it.

But I've seen others say they don't support the movement anymore because of this. Those people either never supported it anyway or weren't true allies. As far as Fox news goes.. I don't think we're trying to win their sympathies they along with their supporters will demonize us regardless.

Eh I'm kinda for being disruptive if meaningful dialogue follows after it. Bernie has a chance to really ratchet things up if he wants.

My biggest disappointment in Barack is that he hasn't done much for the AA community and that's partially our own fault. We didn't push him enough. Constant pressure from the Latino community has helped them. Constant pressure for the LGBT community has helped them. Remember the heckler in Obama's own house. People actually cheered for that.

In regards to the woman holding up the sign saying what white people shouldn't do. I feel that is more damaging than anything they did to Bernie. If ANYONE wants to hold their hand up beside me I welcome it.

 

[AxelFoley]

Yeah racist, self hating black man is that a thing now?

Um, Ben Carson? Clarence Thomas? Sheriff David Clarke in Milwaukee? Those names ring a bell?

 

[Cagey]

Fascinating to see that one liberal candidate needs to proactively earn The Black Vote (the implication it's single-issue and monolithic, which is an appalling simplification of a black voter, but it's not white people in this thread doing it...) because it's seemingly currently defaulted to another liberal candidate whose in possession of said vote based on surname and marriage to Bill Clinton.

Fascinating and depressing.

And because such things do matter as an indicator of bias, I don't have any particular like or fucks to give for Bernie Sanders. I wouldn't vote for him in a primary if I choose to participate.

 

[Messofanego]

Can you provide videos/speeches and links too all of those current "Bernie have" topics. Not sure if I've seen them but I'd like to.

Here's him talking about cops and race relations along with mass incarceration and wants to invest in police training:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtkGLk7M7zs

"When an African American woman gets yanked out of a car..." gets massive applause in Louisiana, mentions that police should be part of community, non-violent offenders shouldn't have lives destroyed by being locked up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSbwA_y7yUw

Was apparently first candidate to speak up about Sandra Bland and speaks to MSNBC about the police reforms he would enact. Have to look at mandatory minimums, new look on drug policies, militarisation of police, no discrimination when applying for jobs, jobs program for unemployed graduates:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDI-qzGPR_w

In Texas, mentions Sandra Bland among other victims to massive applause and the reforms he speaks about where cops have to be held accountable for breaking the law or beating up or killing people, and repeating that police have to be community-based:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi5C77r-4eM&t=59m46s

 

[thepotatoman]

shit, I can't do hands up?

I guess I'll just stand in the back of the march.

"They can't breath" or not saying it at all makes sense in place of "We can't breath". As is redirecting most of the attention from megaphones/media to black people in a protest.

I don't really understand why white people can't do hands up though. I've done that all the time and it hasn't felt disrespectful.

 

[dream]

I'm curious about how those rules are enforced. What happens if a white person does the hands up?

 

[A Link to the Past]

One thing I didn't see (though it may have been brought up), in the discussion with that user who was saying that black people cause their own problems (as a result of poor education, joblessness, etc.) - why is it that in the late 80's, 50% of prisoners found to not actually be guilty of the crime they were convicted of were black? I mean it would certainly be explained by black people not being able to afford a competent defense, but that can't be the reason for all of it, can it? In the end it all just correlates with a lot of the other data - black teens use pot less than white teens, but are arrested more often, black drivers in majority-white cities are pulled over more often than white drivers, etc.

 

[kame-sennin]

Bernie Sanders- an oligarch.

"Would-be". If he became president, that's what he'd be by default since the U.S. is an oligarchy.

I dont even know where to start with what you don't understand.

I'm all ears.

 

[deli2000]

I'm curious about how those rules are enforced. What happens if a white person does the hands up?

We form a twitter mob and shame him away since we apparently love alienating white people so much. Those tweets are actually rules enforced by the entire black community.

Or alternatively, nothing. Since most black protesters are very approachable and black people aren't a monolith.

 

[injurai]

One thing I didn't see (though it may have been brought up), in the discussion with that user who was saying that black people cause their own problems (as a result of poor education, joblessness, etc.) - why is it that in the late 80's, 50% of prisoners found to not actually be guilty of the crime they were convicted of were black?

50% wrongly convicted were black? That doesn't tell us anything given that despite being 13% of the us population Blacks represent 40-60% of the incarcerated population depending on state and city. So the number you give seems about expected for the subset of false convictions given the conviction demographics.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

"Would-be". If he became president, that's what he'd be by default since the U.S. is an oligarchy.

whaaa? I mean, that makes no sense. Oligarchy is rule by a predetermined group of elites. If Sanders win, that group clearly isn't predetermined.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Sucks that the money Sanders used to set up that rally got wasted. Sucks that Sanders is really one of my most civil, reasonable politicians out there, and him and has supporters get treated like they are the KKK.

 

[A Link to the Past]

We form a twitter mob and shame him away since we apparently love alienating white people so much. Those tweets are actually rules enforced by the entire black community.

Or alternatively, nothing. Since most black protesters are very approachable and black people aren't a monolith.

The issue with doing "hands up don't shoot" and saying "I can't breathe" is that often it is white allies effectively claiming to understand where these protest signs come from. As a white person, you don't have to (as often) put your hands up, you aren't as likely to be shot with your hands up, you're not likely to have a bunch of cops dogpile you and choke you to death.

50% wrongly convicted were black? That doesn't tell us anything given that despite being 13% of the us population Blacks represent 40-60% of the incarcerated population depending on state and city. So the number you give seems about expected for the subset of false convictions given the conviction demographics.

I edited the post to add more statistics (drug crimes being more prevalent among white teens than black teens, but more black teens being convicted for them etc.). There's also a statistic that shows that a black defendant is more likely to be convicted than a white defendant. You could argue that this just means that the black defendant is more likely to be guilty, but wouldn't that also mean that white defendants have a certain degree of likelihood to be arrested for a crime that they did not commit?

 

[Bodacious]

I'm curious about how those rules are enforced. What happens if a white person does the hands up?

Maybe get the same treatment as the reporter in Cleveland who got pushed out of a public BLM rally because he's white.

story

video

The video concludes with Blackwell repeatedly asking one activist to not touch his camera.

“I got 800 black people behind me, what the f**k are you gonna do?” replied the activist, while standing face to face with Blackwell.

 

[Train of Midnight]

smh

 

[kame-sennin]

So what do they do? If they don't have them there, they get overruled by pushy white liberals. If they do put them there, they alienate frail white liberals. It seems like a lose/lose for the black community to me, created by the fact that white liberals can't go "well, I feel a bit hurt by the rules but I understand why they're needed" and move on.

I think it's pretty amazing that we're having a debate about how a sign, that tells people what they can't do based on the color of their skin, makes white people feel in the context of anti black murder protests.

whaaa? I mean, that makes no sense. Oligarchy is rule by a predetermined group of elites. If Sanders win, that group clearly isn't predetermined.

That would only be the case if Sanders' presidency displaced the current oligarchical structure. Further, yes you absolutely can become a part of the oligarchy. Obama did, and he was not born into it. The only requirements are amassing ungodly sums of wealth and carrying out the policy goals of the ruling class. The more counter-intuitive position is how one could be president of a country like the United States without becoming a member of the oligarchy.

 

[Odrion]

I'm all for BLM being a disrupting force and taking Democrats to task. Democrats can't just rest on their laurels as the unsupportive moderates and expect people who have to deal with racism to vote for them because the republican option is so monstrously awful.

That said Bernie has a pretty good track record, but I think he handled this poorly. Hopefully the hiring of Sanders will improve things.

 

[BeerSnob]

I think it's pretty amazing that we're having a debate about how a sign, that tells people what they can't do based on the color of their skin, makes white people feel in the context of anti black murder protests.



That would only be the case if Sanders' presidency displaced the current oligarchical structure. Further, yes you absolutely can become a part of the oligarchy. Obama did, and he was not born into it. The only requirements are amassing ungodly sums of wealth and carrying out the policy goals of the ruling class. The more counter-intuitive position is how one could be president of a country like the United States without becoming a member of the oligarchy.

How many millions is Sander's worth anyway? Or is it billions?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

That would only be the case if Sanders presidency displaced the current oligarchical structure. Further, yes you absolutely can become a part of the oligarchy. Obama did, and he was not born into it. The only requirements are amassing ungodly sums of wealth and carrying out the policy goals of the ruling class. The more counter-intuitive position is how one could be president of a country like the United States without becoming a member of the oligarchy.

I mean, we have reasonably good evidence to believe that Sanders presidency will undermine the structural aspects that make US politics inaccessible to those outside of a niche group. That's not say it will become accessible overnight, but we make progress. Thirty years ago it would have been inconceivable that a black man or a woman would be elected to the White House. The class background of United State Senators is more diverse and includes more from low income backgrounds than it has done at any other time in American history. If you think that it remains structurally the same as it did thirty or even ten years ago, you're just wrong.

 

[injurai]

That would only be the case if Sanders' presidency displaced the current oligarchical structure. Further, yes you absolutely can become a part of the oligarchy. Obama did, and he was not born into it. The only requirements are amassing ungodly sums of wealth and carrying out the policy goals of the ruling class. The more counter-intuitive position is how one could be president of a country like the United States without becoming a member of the oligarchy.

The US is a ship, even if it's masts are manned by the Oligarchy doesn't mean the captain supports it. Obama had to steer the ship he was left with. If you read anything about Obama's rise in politics it was about him being as effective as he could given the limitations of the machine around him.

You act like it's a bad thing to somehow engage with the midnight of our politics. But in reality it's commendable and necessary. The truly naive thing is thinking you can burn down ship and rebuild it whilst at sea.

 

[Indicate]

Sucks that the money Sanders used to set up that rally got wasted. Sucks that Sanders is really one of my most civil, reasonable politicians out there, and him and has supporters get treated like they are the KKK.

It wasn't his rally, he was invited to speak there.

 

[0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55]

It wasn't his rally, he was invited to speak there.

Nor was it BLMs

 

[Stinkles]

"Would-be". If he became president, that's what he'd be by default since the U.S. is an oligarchy.



I'm all ears.

Let me guess, you're either nineteen or twenty one.

 

[0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55]

Let me guess, you're either nineteen or twenty one.

+studying at a liberal arts college

 

[The Faceless Master]

is Bernie secretly working for Donald Trump? the way he's been handling things the past few months only seems to be dividing normally democratic allies into warring factions...