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Black Lives Matter shuts down a Bernie Sanders rally

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M

Massive Duck. C.M.

Banned
On topic, I think everybody knows that if multiple videos of black people being killed wasn't enough to sway someone, it's over.

Status quo is too profitable to too many people to change any time soon.
 
A

akira28

Member
Massive Duck said:
On topic, I think everybody knows that if multiple videos of black people being killed wasn't enough to sway someone, it's over.

Status quo is too profitable to too many people to change any time soon.
Click to expand...

status quo doesn't change unless you get a little crazy.

oh no. we'll never survive. unless we get a little.
cray...
zay.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
DrForester said:
I keep thinking more and more what Bernie could do, but I can't imagine there's any good way to tell a big group of people they're fucking idiots and protesting a Bernie Sanders rally is about as useful as staging a protest about how much Fox News sucks, at the Democratic National Convention.
Click to expand...

I've seen this said, but is it true?

First protest, he hires Symone Sanders as his new press secretary. Second protest, he adds racial justice as one of his issues on his official platform. (An archive capture from the day before.)

That's as close to cause and effect as you're going to get. I didn't agree with either protest, but tf anything, those moves have illustrated that protesting Sanders was the right course of action.
 
Subpar Spatula

Subpar Spatula

Banned
MHWilliams said:
I've seen this said, but is it true?

First protest, he hires Symone Sanders as his new press secretary. Second protest, he adds racial justice as one of his issues on his official platform. (An archive capture from the day before.)

That's as close to cause and effect as you're going to get. If anything, those moves have illustrated that protesting Sanders was the right course of action.
Click to expand...

Sure, we can say they're the right moves. It's long term that will see noticeable benefits. Then you have to ask yourself (which has been asked many times in this thread without answer) what will Bernie do that he doesn't already do?
 
A

And_Gignac

Member
MHWilliams said:
I've seen this said, but is it true?

First protest, he hires Symone Sanders as his new press secretary. Second protest, he adds racial justice as one of his issues on his official platform. (An archive capture from the day before.)

That's as close to cause and effect as you're going to get. I didn't agree with either protest, but tf anything, those moves have illustrated that protesting Sanders was the right course of action.
Click to expand...

Yeap. Maybe the protests were not done in the most assertive way but the results are there; there was a much needed response from Sanders' camp so they were a success.

Also reddit is unbearable today. Really disgusting.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Subpar Spatula said:
Sure, we can say they're the right moves. It's long term that will see noticeable benefits. Then you have to ask yourself (which has been asked many times in this thread without answer) what will Bernie do that he doesn't already do?
Click to expand...

Well again, making racial issues as a major, highly-visible part of his platform is already a noticeable change. Having a press secretary that looks to and understands those issues is another.

Those are literally things Bernie was not doing that he is now doing.

That's your answer.

EDIT: And they still might not be happy. Obama has babystepped through LGBT issues for his Presidency. People still continue to ask for more. The same will be true of any candidate. As it stands, this has benefited Sanders greatly in turnout and showed others that he's willing to listen and change.
 
H

Heavy_D206

Member
I live in Seattle and almost went to that rally. It's fucking embarrassing that this happened in my city.

We need more independent candidates and less republicans and democrats, but this is how we treat candidates who try something different.

GJ protesters for making all of Seattle look bad.
 
A

A Link to the Past

Banned
Heavy_D206 said:
I live in Seattle and almost went to that rally. It's fucking embarrassing that this happened in my city.

We need more independent candidates and less republicans and democrats, but this is how we treat candidates who try something different.

GJ protesters for making all of Seattle look bad.
Click to expand...

Look on the bright side, Trump might run as an independent! :D
 
Subpar Spatula

Subpar Spatula

Banned
MHWilliams said:
Well again, making racial issues as a major, highly-visible part of his platform is already a noticeable change. Having a press secretary that looks to and understands those issues is another.

Those are literally things Bernie was not doing that he is now doing.

That's your answer.

EDIT: And they still might not be happy. Obama has babystepped through LGBT issues for his Presidency. People still continue to ask for more. The same will be true of any candidate. As it stands, this has benefited Sanders greatly in turnout and showed others that he's willing to listen and change.
Click to expand...

Visibility doesn't seem to be the issue since his record on minorities is easily accessible. It's good it's more visible but this is really the weakest reason to protest someone. Do you not agree?

This still doesn't answer the question: what will Bernie Sanders do that he doesn't already do? His track record speaks for itself, so you always come back to the same question: what will Bernie do differently that affects you? Simple googling reveals he's been doing this for a long time and has been with BLM probably since it was coined. It seems odd this is their target of protest.

Yes. There are some legit scary people harassing minorities on Twitter and other social media over this, but it's still legit to say their protest is poorly targeted and maybe they should crash a Hillary campaign or something. Heck, go sit outside whatever office she is at.
 
M

Merc_

Member
Subpar Spatula said:
Yes. There are some legit scary people harassing minorities on Twitter and other social media over this, but it's still legit to say their protest is poorly targeted and maybe they should crash a Hillary campaign or something. Heck, go sit outside whatever office she is at.
Click to expand...

I'm curious, if BLM did pull this on Hillary would you and others support it?
 
C

CitizenCope

Member
Black-Wind said:
It fascinates me that people can witness the actions of a few trollish people attaching themselves to a movement and find logic in thinking that they rep the whole.
Click to expand...
How could that possibly fascinate you? I see it right here on this sight where so many are lumped into one catagory.
I'm white with 3 black friends who will 100% vote the opposite of me. Yes they will ALL vote republican.
Not sure where I'm going with this but I'm pretty sure I've read every post here and don't see a post yet that makes me side with "OK yeah this WAS the right place to barge in and protest.".
About the worst candidate to do it to IMO but what do I know. No, really, I'm not quite sure what I know about this*.

*White
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Subpar Spatula said:
Visibility doesn't seem to be the issue since his record on minorities is easily accessible. It's good it's more visible but this is really the weakest reason to protest someone. Do you not agree?

This still doesn't answer the question: what will Bernie Sanders do that he doesn't already do? His track record speaks for itself, so you always come back to the same question: what will Bernie do differently that affects you? Simple googling reveals he's been doing this for a long time and has been with BLM probably since it was coined. It seems odd this is their target of protest.

Yes. There are some legit scary people harassing minorities on Twitter and other social media over this, but it's still legit to say their protest is poorly targeted and maybe they should crash a Hillary campaign or something. Heck, go sit outside whatever office she is at.
Click to expand...

Visibility is enough. A number of successful protest actions throughout history have been about visibility. Letting a wider populace know "Hey, this is an issue that needs to be taken seriously."

You decry the idea of visibility as useful, but again, after the first protest happens:

Sanders reaches out to a person he feels to be an expert to understand why it happened and what he can do to improve.

In an interview, Symone Sanders said she first connected with the senator about three weeks ago, offering him advice on how to better understand the message of Black Lives Matter activists in an hour-long chat.

“One of my suggestions, he took it and ran with it on Meet the Press, is that racial inequality and economic inequality are parallel issues,” she said. “I [told him,] you know, economic equality is an issue. It’s something we need to address. But for some people it doesn’t matter how much money you make, it doesn’t matter where you went to school, it doesn’t matter what your parents do. It doesn’t matter that Sandra Bland had a job and was on her way to teach for her alma mater. It doesn’t matter. None of that matters.”

Bernie Sanders took to the advice, Symone Sanders said. She also confronted him with one of the criticisms he faced earlier in the summer, when Black Lives Matter activists rejected his statements about his past Civil Rights Movement work.

“Educating America, the community, letting people know who Bernie Sanders is and what he’s about,” she said. “And not just, ‘Oh, I fought for civil rights and I protested and I sat at the lunch counters.’ That’s important and that’s great but that was 50 years ago and he has a lot more to stand on than just what he did 50 years ago.”

At the end of the meeting, Bernie Sanders offered her a job.
Click to expand...

That's a change in the words of someone currently in Sanders' campaign.

And the visibility of the movement itself increased in all Democratic candidates.

The contrast at the National Urban League's annual conference highlighted the divergent approaches Republicans and Democrats are generally taking when talking about the raging national debate over race, violence and law enforcement in America.

"Young people have taken to the streets, dignified and determined, urging us to affirm the basic fact that black lives matter," said Clinton, whose campaign kickoff speech left a major Black Lives Matter organizer unimpressed. "And because of people across this country sharing their stories with courage and strength, a growing number of Americans are realizing what many of you have been saying for a long time: we can’t go on like this; we are better than this; things must change."

After taking heat from Black Lives Matter activists at a gathering of liberals earlier this month, Sanders and O'Malley each made a point, in their own ways, to avoid a repeat.
Click to expand...

"Every year we buried 300 young black man who died violent deaths on our streets. And black lives matter," said O'Malley, who focused heavily in his remarks on criminal justice reform and issued a nine-page paper outlining his plan for doing so.

Sanders, a self-described socialist senator from Vermont, also called for revamping those laws.

"We must reform our criminal justice system. Black lives do matter and we must value black lives," said Sanders.
Click to expand...

This question posed to Hillary on her Facebook page.

You chose not to speak at Netroots Nation [This was the first protest] this weekend, two of your Democratic primary rivals did -- both were interrupted by Black Lives Matter protesters, who asked: "As the leader of this nation, will you advance a racial justice agenda that will dismantle -- not reform, not make progress -- but will begin to dismantle structural racism in the United States?"

How would you have answered?
Click to expand...

Her answer:
Black lives matter. Everyone in this country should stand firmly behind that. We need to acknowledge some hard truths about race and justice in this country, and one of those hard truths is that that racial inequality is not merely a symptom of economic inequality. Black people across America still experience racism every day. Since this campaign started, I've been talking about the work we must do to address the systemic inequities that persist in education, in economic opportunity, in our justice system. But we have to do more than talk - we have to take action. For example - we should make sure every police department in the US has body cameras. We should provide alternatives to incarceration for low-level offenders. We should invest in early childhood education for every child. We should fight for voting rights and universal voter registration. You will continue to hear me talking about these issues throughout this campaign and pushing for real solutions.
Click to expand...
Second protest? Once again, here's the change in the website and notice the placement.

VAOkXfo.png


Once it's on Bernie's platform, then perhaps racial issues become something brought up at national debates. It becomes a larger and more visible issue on a national stage.

Visibility is important, so why is that not enough of a concrete result?

Merc_ said:
I'm curious, if BLM did pull this on Hillary would you and others support it?
Click to expand...

I'd agree with it as much as I agreed with the protest on Sanders.
 
W

werks

Banned
Subpar Spatula said:
Visibility doesn't seem to be the issue since his record on minorities is easily accessible. It's good it's more visible but this is really the weakest reason to protest someone. Do you not agree?

This still doesn't answer the question: what will Bernie Sanders do that he doesn't already do? His track record speaks for itself, so you always come back to the same question: what will Bernie do differently that affects you? Simple googling reveals he's been doing this for a long time and has been with BLM probably since it was coined. It seems odd this is their target of protest.
Click to expand...
Aknowledging Bernie's past is difficult because it also brings up Hillary and O'malley's past record. It's difficult to champion those two as the model Bernie should follow since they championed policies that put hundreds of thousands of black youth in prison.

Then we go to the even more troubling issue of Hillary being the candidate of choice for the private prison industry. Not only are we asked discount past action, we are asked to discount the corrupt institution of private industries funding our political candidates and the influence that money buys.

Of course the last argument is that this topic exists in a vacuum. This is only about Bernie and his sloppy messaging. His messaging and optics are outrageous and infuriating to BLM. And not a single word of the actions of the other candidates who only champion BLM in words.

If Bernie's messaging provokes this sort of reaction from BLM, then Hillary and O'malley's actions should be provoke an even stronger reaction from BLM.


NeoXChaos said:
No. Hillary is on their side so it would be silly to protest her.
Click to expand...

Case in point. Words are more important than actions.
 
Subpar Spatula

Subpar Spatula

Banned
MHWilliams said:
Visibility is enough. A number of successful protest actions throughout history have been about visibility. Letting a wider populace know "Hey, this is an issue that needs to be taken seriously."

You decry the idea of visibility as useful, but again, after the first protest happens:

Sanders reaches out to a person he feels to be an expert to understand why it happened and what he can do to improve.



That's a change in the words of someone currently in Sanders' campaign.

And the visibility of the movement itself increased in all Democratic candidates.





This question posed to Hillary on her Facebook page.



Her answer:

Second protest? Once again, here's the change in the website and notice the placement.

VAOkXfo.png


Once it's on Bernie's platform, then perhaps racial issues become something brought up at national debates. It becomes a larger and more visible issue on a national stage.

Visibility is important, so why is that not enough of a concrete result?



I'd agree with it as much as I agreed with the protest on Sanders.
Click to expand...
He's just adding more visibility. His stances, speeches, and voting history isn't something that's hidden or hard to find.

Visibility brings attention, attention doesn't necessarily bring change:

#OccupyWallstreet
#Kony2012
#BringOurGirlsBack

Being more aware doesn't make policy, it makes you more aware. You have to look at actions taken and that record shows Bernie is on your side and has been probably well before most of these protestors have been alive.

Edit: by change I mean policy change, reform, etc. Having him update his website and restate his stances isn't necessarily change since he's been about this issue for decades.
 
I

InsaneZero

Member
I just caught up on the social media response to this, and yikes. I can see why now people think that Bernie supporters might be poisonous. My apologies to people that I might have accused of perpetuating the "us vs them" mentality.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Subpar Spatula said:
He's just adding more visibility. His stances, speeches, and voting history isn't something that's hidden or hard to find.

Visibility brings attention, attention doesn't necessarily bring change:

#OccupyWallstreet
#Kony2012
#BringOurGirlsBack

Being more aware doesn't make policy, it makes you more aware. You have to look at actions taken and that record shows Bernie is on your side and has been probably well before most of these protestors have been alive.
Click to expand...

And yet, sometimes visibility does bring change.

So again: Increased visbility and the causes Black Lives Matter supports are now a larger part of Bernie's platform (with a noted focus shift from just economic inequality). Potentially, they've started to become a larger part of all Democratic candidate's platforms. I've shown you concrete change, you just believe it's not enough.

That's fine, but let's not act like there's been no change. You just feel it wasn't worth the protests, others may disagree with you.
 
Subpar Spatula

Subpar Spatula

Banned
MHWilliams said:
And yet, sometimes visibility does bring change.

So again: Increased visbility and the causes Black Lives Matter supports are now a larger part of Bernie's platform. Potentially, they've started to become a larger part of all Democratic candidate's platforms. I've shown you concrete change, you just believe it's not enough.

That's fine, but let's not act like there's been no change. You just feel it wasn't worth the protests, others may disagree with you.
Click to expand...

Yes. It isn't enough. They're band-aids. It's restating his stance. His stances have been public record for a long time.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
So, where is the discussion at now?

Bernie's attempting to become more visible(which is really his major issue) in regards to his platform and his actual history on record issues, and that's a good thing.

I just think that its sad that people think Bernie in the march on Washington is the only thing he's done for us minorities. His entire career has been that, and i just think its unfair he's the one getting shit for that.

Maybe if more people knew about his platform before he became president, he'd actually have more black supporters, and then the "all of his supporters are white liberals" nonsense would die down. I think that's what he needs to do as top priority.

A lot of us Bernie supporters are overtly defensive to the point of being self defeating. But it mostly stems from desperation i assure you. I can say that a majority are not closet racists, infact the opposite.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Subpar Spatula said:
Yes. It isn't enough. They're band-aids. It's restating his stance. His stances have been public record for a long time.
Click to expand...

Again, your question has been answered and you don't believe the changes are concrete enough. If you feel it's just a band-aid, that's fine. I disagree on that point. And seeing it brought up by every Democratic candidate and potentially be a discussion in a national debate is enough for some people.

Inuhanyou said:
So, where is the discussion at now?

Bernie's attempting to become more visible(which is really his major issue) in regards to his platform and his actual history on record issues, and that's a good thing.

I just think that its sad that people think Bernie in the march on Washington is the only thing he's done for us minorities. His entire career has been that, and i just think its unfair he's the one getting shit for that.

Maybe if more people knew about his platform before he became president, he'd actually have more black supporters, and then the "all of his supporters are white liberals" nonsense would die down. I think that's what he needs to do as top priority
Click to expand...

Because visibility is important. I'm not sure why people don't understand this.
 
B

Black-Wind

Member
CitizenCope said:
How could that possibly fascinate you? I see it right here on this sight where so many are lumped into one catagory.
I'm white with 3 black friends who will 100% vote the opposite of me. Yes they will ALL vote republican.
Not sure where I'm going with this but I'm pretty sure I've read every post here and don't see a post yet that makes me side with "OK yeah this WAS the right place to barge in and protest.".
About the worst candidate to do it to IMO but what do I know. No, really, I'm not quite sure what I know about this*.

*White
Click to expand...

What are you going on about?
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
MHWilliams said:
Because visibility is important. I'm not sure why people don't understand this.
Click to expand...

This is true, but its unfortunate that the entire struggle so far with Bernie has been with people who don't seem to know how to google or research basic facts in order to come to a substantiated conclusion about the candidate or what he or her(in the case of hillary) may stand for.

I don't appeal to emotion, that's more conservatives gig, and so when i see this kind of thing brought up in the face of actual practical policy measures it gets me really frustrated.
 
C

Coffee Dog

Banned
People that are bringing up Bernie's policies are missing that the policies were never the point, and they aren't often the point in modern politics.

This was to get included in the PR campaign. And it worked.
 
I

Infinite

Member
Inuhanyou said:
This is true, but its unfortunate that the entire struggle so far with Bernie has been with people who don't seem to know how to google or research basic facts in order to come to a substantiated conclusion about the candidate or what he or her(in the case of hillary) may stand for.

I don't appeal to emotion, that's more conservatives gig, and so when i see this kind of thing brought up in the face of actual practical policy measures it gets me really frustrated.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? What was Bernies Plan to reform the criminal justice system and address police brutality prior to netroots? What is his actual plan now?
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Infinite said:
What are you talking about? What was Bernies Plan to reform the criminal justice system and address police brutality prior to netroots? What is his actual plan now?
Click to expand...

I wasn't referring to anything regarding such a plan. My issue is in general, ridiculous statements and claims about him being a white liberal who doesn't care about minority or black issues, when from my perspective that can't be further from the truth based on his voting record, and his own statements years before this up until the current time.

I'm sure he can iron out some portions of his campaign and detail many aspects. He is working on a detailed plan for police reform right now, and will bring it to the forefront when it is ready according to Symone Sanders.

But if your issue is about trying to put pressure on Bernie to make a detailed plan regarding police brutality, that is a completely different subject than the thinly veiled race war this has turned into on both sides.

Its become not even about him as a candidate, and more about more garbage agenda seeking, and that's what i dislike.

I don't see how "he doesn't talk about my specific issue enough" ballooned into such a farce.
 
N

not psycho

Member
A couple points I want to bring up that often get lost in this.

1. There is potential for a genuine, substantial difference in belief, where neither side is trivially wrong.

U.S._Distribution_of_Wealth,_2007.jpg


YRo7oWJ.png


Bernie Sanders thinks income and wealth inequality are the biggest issues facing the country.

The wealth gap between White and Black households is absurd. White households have 13 times more wealth at the median. Ignoring race, the bottom 40% owns .2% of the wealth. The bottom 60% (which includes the so-called "middle") owns 4.2% of the wealth.

Even a rich Black person can still be targeted due to economics, because nobody is exempt from presumptions and stereotypes that are partly derived from a crazy wealth/power gap in society. Just as some think Sanders is being dismissive of their cause, I'm sure some of Sanders supporters think others are being dismissive of economic issues and their fundamental connection with racism.

Bernie Sanders has been fighting against mass incarceration, against mandatory minimums, against increased prosecution of juveniles, and for alternative sentencing, for a living wage, for decades. Even when it was unpopular to do so (others are coming around on mass incarceration finally). But he usually ties it in with his core issue of economic disparity.

Nobody is trivially wrong here. There are arguments to be had about economics, racism, and other factors, and the answers are not obvious.


2. Black people are more than justified in being skeptical. For one example:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...ng-policy-that-made-your-neighborhood/371439/

This is a policy that helped White people gain wealth but fucked over Black people. So before thinking "wealth inequality is a problem for everyone, it doesn't have to be tailored to Black people", remember your history. Black people getting fucked over, sometimes by ostensibly good policies that were not tailored for them.

So yes, Sanders absolutely has to aim his policies directly and specifically at Black people if he wants their support. He hasn't been good enough at that, but is improving. Those of his supporters who haven't been good at it also need to improve.
 
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