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[Parallax Scroll]

Like I said before its almost all relevant, you just don't know it because you don't have a fucking clue about the series.

Right, I think an entire post with nothing but images describing pre-order options and uplay rewards is excessive because i don't have a fucking clue about the series.

 

[Retro_]

I don't think it has to be rude, not if conducted in an intelligent and sensible way. And I don't see why saying negative things about OP's are any less damaging to the direction of the thread than the usual "EPIC OT!!!" posts that usual fill the first four or five pages of any given OT.

It just seems odd, given how the almost unanimous sentiment in this thread seems to be "Yeah, they're a waste of time", when all the threads are filled with is unadulterated praise. This isn't school, we don't all have to be best friends - passing judgement on something should be equally "allowed" whether that judgement is positive or negative.

The point is that OTs are for discussing the games, not the OTs themselves

People derailing the threads with OT criticism would be alot more obstructive to actual game discussion than the overdone OTs.

 

[Card Boy]

Like I said before its almost all relevant, you just don't know it because you don't have a fucking clue about the series.

Why is it relevant? Just have a 1 paragraph summary of the plot so far, like 10 dot points whats new to the series, followed by some screenshots.

Take this for example
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449649

Pretty much copy and paste from my FM12 thread.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

I could, but the people who are whining about no search never actually wanted it, they just wanted to complain about it not being an option. For future threads sure, it's probably the best solution

i wish i had your psychic mind reading powers

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I don't think it has to be rude, not if conducted in an intelligent and sensible way. And I don't see why saying negative things about OP's are any less damaging to the direction of the thread than the usual "EPIC OT!!!" posts that usual fill the first four or five pages of any given OT.

It just seems odd, given how the almost unanimous sentiment in this thread seems to be "Yeah, they're a waste of time", when all the threads are filled with is unadulterated praise. This isn't school, we don't all have to be best friends - passing judgement on something should be equally "allowed" whether that judgement is positive or negative.

Are you honestly suggesting that it would be better to have this argument in every mega-OT instead of containing it in threads like this for this very specific topic?

 

[RDreamer]

Right, I think an entire post with nothing but images describing pre-order options and uplay rewards is excessive because i don't have a fucking clue about the series.

How is that excessive? Nowadays the preorder options and varying ways you can buy games are freaking convoluted and crazy. It's nice to have that right there. If I'm a fan of the game I'd love to be able to pop in and see a conclusive list of what I can get where. And it's an "entire post" again so that he could link to it form the first post, that way if you don't want to see the preorder things you can hop to multiplayer or single player or what have you.

 

[Kaltagesta]

The point is that OTs are for discussing the games, not the OTs themselves

People derailing the threads with OT criticism would be alot more obstructive to actual game discussion than the overdone OTs.

Well OK, but as long as people hype up their own OTs and have others who've had a sneak preview hyping them up (as per the BF3 one), you're going to have discussion about the OT itself, whether that's what it's for or not. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't need one thread to be nice in, and another to be mean in.

 

[Sciz]

The desire for search is a direct side effect of having a massive OP. You put all of the important information that people would want to search for in the very first post instead of dispersing it throughout and you can bang on about the little stuff as long as you want.

 

[Irish]

How is that excessive? Nowadays the preorder options and varying ways you can buy games are freaking convoluted and crazy. It's nice to have that right there. If I'm a fan of the game I'd love to be able to pop in and see a conclusive list of what I can get where. And it's an "entire post" again so that he could link to it form the first post, that way if you don't want to see the preorder things you can hop to multiplayer or single player or what have you.

Exactly, that is why the posts are structured the way they are: so you can jump to where you want to go based on the table of contents.

 

[Shanadeus]

I could, but the people who are whining about no search never actually wanted it, they just wanted to complain about it not being an option. For future threads sure, it's probably the best solution

Just follow this basic guideline:

OT Guidelines

• One page for single games, one page per each game in collections.
• No images must be used to display bodies of text longer than one sentence.
• Majority of the space in your OP need to be taken up by text, not images.
• The majority of pictures should be present at the end of the topic post.
• There must be a link to bypass the OP on top of the first post, below the opening picture, if your OP is more than one page.
• Table of contents optional when your OP is one page, required when it has multiple pages.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

The desire for search is a direct side effect of having a massive OP. You put all of the important information that people would want to search for in the very first post instead of dispersing it throughout and you can bang on about the little stuff as long as you want.

That, and because this is the internet, which has a major advantage over print media in that all text is searchable. Well, almost all text.

 

[Kaltagesta]

Are you honestly suggesting that it would be better to have this argument in every mega-OT instead of containing it in threads like this for this very specific topic?

I don't think that would happen - at least, not past the first one or two. The situation we have here is that in the threads everyone waxes lyrical about how utterly incredible the anti-aliased text is, and what not - and then in here everyone moans about how they're a waste of time. The threads might as well be on different forums for all the good this discussion is going to do, given how detached from the other comments it is. If people were more "free" (and I appreciate that critcising OT's inside OT's isn't against the rules or anything, but your response to me now suggests it wouldn't exactly be taken kindly, unlike the godlike praise that currently inhabits OTs) to actually discuss this in the threads in question, some form of dialectic might form where OT makers can actually learn where the line is, and see what people appreciate and what they don't.

 

[Card Boy]

Just follow this basic guideline:

OT Guidelines

• One page ONLY
• No images must be used to display bodies of text longer than one sentence.
• Majority of the space in your OP need to be taken up by text, not images.
• The majority of pictures should be present at the end of the topic post.
  

Fixed

 

[Irish]

Fixed

By golly, don't think I've ever seen a 50 or 100 post OT before.

 

[PnCIa]

To be honest, that AssCreed OT looks like it was made by a very dedicated community manager. Incredibly professional.

 

[WickedLaharl]

Heh this is reminding me of how bruce was run through the wringer a few years ago.

However in that case he took the criticisms to heart and did a damn fine job with the uncharted OT.

 

[ColtraineGF]

Well maybe, this is what we should be using that community thread for...to decide on how the OT will be structured when it's delegated to someone who wants to make one.

 

[Threi]

its hard to judge what info people want and don't want in an OT...definitely easier said than done.

My Desktop Thread is at the character limit, and i have no idea what to cut out. All the info is stuff that is very frequently asked, and I definitely don't want to make it spread to two pages.


that AC thread though...kinda overkill. I respect the effort though.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

They already use the community section to delegate who does the OTs, I think some guidelines would help alot. They don't have to be enforced, just something everyone amicably agrees to follow to the best of their ability.

 

[Haunted]

Just restrict OT OPs to be one post, problem solved. I do not believe that there is crucial information that can not be conveyed within the confines of the first post.

If you want to communicate additional information or fluff, just post it in the OT regularly like everyone else.


edit: Maybe reserve a second post for updates and current information, but only on a case to case basis when the game is constantly getting updated (something like Minecraft for example).

 

[notworksafe]

Like I said before its almost all relevant, you just don't know it because you don't have a fucking clue about the series.

Wallpapers: relevant?
Avatars: revelvant?
History of Greek Fire: relevant?
Books: relevant?
Statue: relevant?
Clothing/keychain/playing cards: relevant?
iPhone/mobile/Facebook games: relevant?
Soundtracks for old games: relevant?
Comics, movie, other garbage: relevant?
Future of the series: relevant?

Yeah, plenty of places to trim the fat. It's a single game OT. If you wanted to do a series overview OT, make that thread its own thing and link to it in your OP.

---

I think limiting all OTs to one post is a bit much. Like I posted before, three should be the max. First for basic info, overview, story, images, trailers, etc. Second for any overflow like reviews, character profiles, GAF impressions, whatever IF NEEDED. Third for DLC/updates, extra impressions and anything that might get added over time and may not fit in the character limit of the first post.

Not every game will need all three posts, or even two. The second is there just for overflow, which happens sometimes. And the third (or second if no overflow) is for updates/DLC/impressions. Basically just stuff that would get added over time, if the game is one that would get updates like that.

 

[Para bailar La Bomba]

Don't wish to belittle anybody's effort cos OTs clearly involve more effort than just cutting & pasting but some of them are a nightmare to access via portable devices and 3G.

 

[suzu]

I appreciate the effort put into the fancy |OT| threads, but some of them are a bit much (like the ACR thread).

 

[Tenck]

incase you hadn't noticed, the assassin's creed revelations OT went up today:
not safe for those prone to carpal tunnel in their mousewheel finger

look at that monstrosity. i thought OTs were supposed to be things of utility, with the original post serving as a concise primer, laying out all the useful and essential information for anyone with a wayward moment to click on them; not masturbatory odes to the greatness of every last mitigating detail of a game.

when i click on an OT i'll want to find release/pricing details, a spattering of reviews and footage, and perhaps a tastefully concise blurb or bullet list highlighting some of the major innovations/selling points of the title. what i don't want is some catch all media dump which reads like the OP found a folder some PR rep left on a train and decided to type it all up verbatim, leaving any useful information marooned in a sea of extended universe fluff.

moreover, this kind of yawning fanboy rubbing material only serves to set up a sycophantic worship tone for the rest of the thread, stifling rational debate. how dare anyone criticize a king in his own palace?

here's how it should be done, courtesy of stump. level headed, concise and actually useful:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=351801
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449987

i did also enjoy the couple of times that OTs have been granted "roast" privileges, neutralizing the usual worshipful narrative of most OTs. but with fanthing tensions as taut as they are, i foresee many faded usernames should that ever become the standard.

Release date shown on the first post and a clickable link to follow reviews are in the first post.

I see no reason why you would even complain about that since it's you know, in the first post.

 

[plc268]

its hard to judge what info people want and don't want in an OT...definitely easier said than done.

My Desktop Thread is at the character limit, and i have no idea what to cut out. All the info is stuff that is very frequently asked, and I definitely don't want to make it spread to two pages.


that AC thread though...kinda overkill. I respect the effort though.

That's actually a really well done OT. I haven't messed with desktop customization in years (and certainly not with win7). Within 10 min of read your OT, I already changed my start button orb and installed that 10 ft HUD gadgets.

Job well done, IMO.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

To be honest, that AssCreed OT looks like it was made by a very dedicated community manager. Incredibly professional.

I find it extremely ironic how as an OT's length grows, the OP's passion for the game becomes more apparent, a labor of love from the community...

...until a certain point, when the whole thing just suddenly feels cold and clinical and is a few hops shy of viral marketing.


The overall issue of OTs is that they ultimately serve multiple audiences with very different needs for a game thread. After writing up two giant walls of text for my Puyo thread I realized that nobody in their right minds would want to read posts like that, despite the thread being primarily designed to get more people interested in the series. Eventually I reformatted it with a few short paragraphs at the beginning with quick in and out game recommendations. I'm still working on how to best present the content, cause as it stands it's pretty shitty. Maybe I'll do another revamp when the next big game hits (hahahahah like the US is ever going to get more of those games)

 

[Puddles]

They already use the community section to delegate who does the OTs, I think some guidelines would help alot. They don't have to be enforced, just something everyone amicably agrees to follow to the best of their ability.

OTs shouldn't even be delegated.

First one to get one up should be the one to make it.

 

[Irish]

OTs shouldn't even be delegated.

First one to get one up should be the one to make it.

You've got a point. From now on, I will be doing all OTs and they will simply be reposts of the MGS 4 and AC:R OTs combined under whatever game's title.

 

[teiresias]

Heh this is reminding me of how bruce was run through the wringer a few years ago.

However in that case he took the criticisms to heart and did a damn fine job with the uncharted OT.

Yeah its pretty obvious we're bound to get another Asscreed style OT out of that poster given his reactions here.

Well, at least the AC OT will be hilariously even more worthless the minute all the image links fail for some reason.

 

[RukusProvider]

I'd love to see an OP that just maintains reviews, game patch details, current issues and end user fixes and things related to the game experience.

It's to the point, I don't look at any OP's. They provide me with no value. I prefer to not watch media info for a game since the experience is better going in blind and really that's what most of these OP's tend to be. A collection of pre release media scattered all over.

 

[dalin80]

It is damn annoying as well to scroll through the first 20 pages of 'great OP!' just to try to find a useful bit of info or a genuine first impression.

 

[GhaleonEB]

As someone who's created few OT's myself, including the rather unwieldy Halo Reach OT, I mostly agree with the OP here. I think the OT is a place to provide all the basic information about a game, and/or links to where people can find what they want, in an attractive an organized way, as a way to kick off the discussion about a game and provide a reference for those unfamiliar with it.

I'm also a big believer in updated OPs, with news/updates at the top for those following the game (not to replace new news for new information, of course).

Personally, I think the recent Skyrim thread set a pretty good bar in terms of content, organization and presentation. It's comprehensive without being bloated. My original Reach thread was a bit bloated, but I scaled it back over time in subsequent OT's. There's something to be said for restraint.

The Halo Anniversary thread I post tomorrow is one post, and is pretty compact, a trend I plan to keep up for all subsequent OT's. It's a fine line to walk between informative and overwhelming, and I think expanding the content beyond one post starts to cross that line, at least for myself.

 

[Twinduct]

I wanted to say 'turn off images you lazy cows' ... but then I did ..... the AC:R is just a big box filled with smaller Boxes :<

I do appreciate the effort the OP of AC:R put in though. There is a hard balance to reach between creative design and functionality. Not to mention the constant 'hype' people afix to OTs before launch. Hell the BF3 one was expected to be bloated! People was encouraging the author to 'one up' the MGS4 thread

 

[butter_stick]

I wanted to say 'turn off images you lazy cows' ... but then I did ..... the AC:R is just a big box filled with smaller Boxes :<

I do appreciate the effort the OP of AC:R put in though. There is a hard balance to reach between creative design and functionality. Not to mention the constant 'hype' people afix to OTs before launch. Hell the BF3 one was expected to be bloated! People was encouraging the author to 'one up' the MGS4 thread

The MGS4 thread was a curse.

 

[Buckethead]

That Assassin's Creed one is silly but it's a nice way that you can show your love for a game by expressing your talent and creativity.

I'd like to see more for indy/XBLA games.

 

[firehawk12]

The simple truth of the matter is that of the first posts of an OT are bloated with images and text, that means no one will ever visit those first posts, even if there are updates.

 

[thetrin]

Like I said before its almost all relevant, you just don't know it because you don't have a fucking clue about the series.

Dude. I've played all three AC games up until now. It's not all relevant. Relevance is "what patches do I need to know about?" or "What changes are there from the previous iteration?" or "How do I play online with other gaffers?"

Relevant information is not "Here is a list of every god damn character in the game, down to what school they went to and what they studied".

The only reason an OT should be long is if there have been a TON of patch notes and relevant changes to the game that bear mentioning to anyone who is going to enter, or the thread is about how some awesome mod makes the game better, but the instructions for installing it are convoluted and require that you install some other crap.

Common sense would dictate that almost no console game fits this criteria.

As someone who's created few OT's myself, including the rather unwieldy Halo Reach OT, I mostly agree with the OP here. I think the OT is a place to provide all the basic information about a game, and/or links to where people can find what they want, in an attractive an organized way, as a way to kick off the discussion about a game and provide a reference for those unfamiliar with it.

I'm also a big believer in updated OPs, with news/updates at the top for those following the game (not to replace new news for new information, of course).

Personally, I think the recent Skyrim thread set a pretty good bar in terms of content, organization and presentation. It's comprehensive without being bloated. My original Reach thread was a bit bloated, but I scaled it back over time in subsequent OT's. There's something to be said for restraint.

The Halo Anniversary thread I post tomorrow is one post, and is pretty compact, a trend I plan to keep up for all subsequent OT's. It's a fine line to walk between informative and overwhelming, and I think expanding the content beyond one post starts to cross that line, at least for myself.

Even the Skyrim OT is bloated, but not overly so. It has an avatar section for crying out loud. It's not meant to be an advertisement for the game. It's supposed to inform people who come into the thread.

 

[Takao]

My OT history:
Invizimals
Dragon Ball Z: Tenkaichi Tag Team
PlayStation Move Heroes
Dragon Ball: Origins/Origins 2
Dragon Ball Kai: Ultimate Butouden
Legend of Robo7

I think generally I improved. Some may ask why Legend of Robo7 was so barebones in terms of art, and such ... well, there wasn't any art to use. I used all I could find. Peronsally, I think the later 2 Dragon Ball OTs are my best work, in terms of both cleanliness, and conveying so much in so little. However, from reading this thread it appears I've made a grave mistake by embedding the text into images. Sorry! I'll make sure to change that to my next OT - Corpse Party.

 

[confused]

About that- Here was the entire Brohood manual:

This is pretty much all the information I need before starting a game. If I want to experience the game's world and characters I'll just play the game. I don't need a message boards geek writing a dissertation about the game so that when I do play the game I know everything about it, leaving nothing to the imagination or just up to the player.

Also, talking about past games in a series that sold millions of copies is just a waste of space. Everybody knows what AC, AC2 and BroHo are about. No need to tell us again. Oh and for the few people who hadn't played the previous games yet, you completely spoiled the plot of all 3 games.

That's just a really bad job of an OT.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Even the Skyrim OT is bloated, but not overly so. It has an avatar section for crying out loud. It's not meant to be an advertisement for the game. It's supposed to inform people who come into the thread.

It's a forum, where people use avatars. There are often requests for them. I don't see anything unusual or bloated about including a few for folks to use. Particularly since the OT is so well organized and categorized. Very seldom do I read all of an OT, and that's true of the Skyrim thread. But in about ten seconds I was able to find everything I wanted to find in the OT. Not everyone is interested in the same things.

OT's shouldn't be advertisements for a game, but they can (and often are) a celebration of sorts for the release of the game. They are made by fans of the game/developer, and there's nothing wrong with a level of enthusiasm about them, so long as they don't lose their function in the process.

 

[TheOddOne]

It's a forum, where people use avatars. There are often requests for them. I don't see anything unusual or bloated about including a few for folks to use. Particularly since the OT is so well organized and categorized. Very seldom do I read all of an OT, and that's true of the Skyrim thread. But in about ten seconds I was able to find everything I wanted to find in the OT. Not everyone is interested in the same things.

OT's shouldn't be advertisements for a game, but they can (and often are) a celebration of sorts for the release of the game. They are made by fans of the game/developer, and there's nothing wrong with a level of enthusiasm about them.

Yeah, pretty much sums up my opinion too.

 

[Twinduct]

This is pretty much all the information I need before starting a game. If I want to experience the game's world and characters I'll just play the game. I don't need a message boards geek writing a dissertation about the game so that when I do play the game I know everything about it, leaving nothing to the imagination or just up to the player.

Also, talking about past games in a series that sold millions of copies is just a waste of space. Everybody knows what AC, AC2 and BroHo are about. No need to tell us again. Oh and for the few people who hadn't played the previous games yet, you completely spoiled the plot of all 3 games.

That's just a really bad job of an OT.

Come on man
I don't agree with you about the manual though. It's sad to see the significant value of owning a physical copy now a days has become a single dvd with a pamphlet.
But hey, why not give a bigger reason for none internet folk to go and buy a strategy guide.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I don't agree with you about the manual though. It's sad to see the significant value of owning a physical copy now a days has become a single dvd with a pamphlet.

Even though I prefer physical media to DLC, in the case of >90% of console games, if you have to reference an external document in order to play the game well, then your game is poorly designed.

But that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Twinduct]

Even though I prefer physical media to DLC, in the case of >90% of console games, if you have to reference an external document in order to play the game well, then your game is poorly designed.

But that's a topic for another thread.

It's not about referencing. It's about everything else it provides. Back in the day Manuals use to look like what OTs do now. Bombarding you with info and lore about the game. Hell games like X3 damn well had something like a 200 page manual!

It's just really sad that stuff like that is the 'past'.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Dude. I've played all three AC games up until now. It's not all relevant. Relevance is "what patches do I need to know about?" or "What changes are there from the previous iteration?" or "How do I play online with other gaffers?"

Relevant information is not "Here is a list of every god damn character in the game, down to what school they went to and what they studied".

The only reason an OT should be long is if there have been a TON of patch notes and relevant changes to the game that bear mentioning to anyone who is going to enter, or the thread is about how some awesome mod makes the game better, but the instructions for installing it are convoluted and require that you install some other crap.

Common sense would dictate that almost no console game fits this criteria.

Heh, I am reminded of those RPing people in forums for some odd reason.

Anyway, all that's said is stated in this thread. I haven't checked, but what image server is being used in AssCreed OT? Because if it's photobucket or imageshack we might see some problems. Hell, I think even imgur won't last long.

 

[confused]

I'd also like to add that it's a plague that every new release gets like 7 different threads opn the frontpage in the week of release. Like right now there are 5 or 6 MW3 threads on the frontpage. Is that really needed ? It seems like people nowadays are just falling over themselves to create threads for every single little piece of information just to be the first, even if they stole that info from other posters.

 

[Jonnyram]

I have one tiny technical objection to OTs, in addition to my personal dislike of them.
I work in a company where most free image hosts are blocked. imgur.com, abload.de, flickr.com etc. No images hosted on any of those sites are displayed. So these OTs are mostly just a bunch of blank posts.

Maybe, if EviLore is actively supporting these advertorials, the images could at least be hosted on neogaf.com?

 

[Chiggs]

I think it's sad that people spend so much time working on the OTs. Is there nothing else worth spending your precious hours on?

 

[Boss Doggie]

I'd also like to add that it's a plague that every new release gets like 7 different threads opn the frontpage in the week of release. Like right now there are 5 or 6 MW3 threads on the frontpage. Is that really needed ?

Apparently they don't want to bloat the OT with it... eh, I dunno.

 

[dose]

Put me down in the 'AC OT is far far too big' camp. Half of that information is completely unnecessary.