keefged4
Member
Something something licking of boots. We've heard it all before. It's boring now, go complain somewhere else, or contribute to the BB working via emulation discussion.
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Dr.Morris79
Member
..Wanting to use our bought products is bad now?
its never done that before? Havent we just had a big slew of remastered games that could have been easily emulated, of which I personally did, and bought the remasters..
Unethical to who if you've already bought the said product?
And, unethical to who if you was never going to buy that product to begin with?
keefged4
Member
If Sony did care about this and released a remaster, I'd be first in line to purchase. But it's clear they don't. So we'll make do with this instead. I cant believe the progress made so far, its amazing. Even though I've platinumed BB I'm still getting my ass handed to me by the blood starved beast. Crazy how quickly you un-learn the souls games!
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Do you really think I care that much about a near 10 year old game?
Or that I don't own a modern PC ?
Check my post history, I've never had any issue with Playstation product getting ported to PC, and if I pass comment on such matter its always in terms of discussing basic business practice.
What always strikes me as funny about comments like yours, is that its based one the assumption that the thing you're reacting to, cannot be simply taken at face value - even when I go to the trouble of describing my reasoning!
Let me restate, one more time:
Its just my opinion, as someone who legitimately values emulation and is actively using it daily as part of developing a game on obsolete hardware, that emulating games/systems still actively available is unethical, with the demand its servicing being no different than any other sort of "warez".
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I care about ethics such as the exploitation of child labor or the extirpation of natural resources from conflict zones because they’re cheaper.
I don’t give a shit about the ethics of emulation and neither do you. Stop pretending to care about the moral implications of things that "affect" billion dollar corporations.
mrcroket
Member
The brainwashing of users by corporations and brands is mind-boggling.
For some years now, people have been more concerned about the money that companies might lose than about their own money and convenience, as if companies were friends to do favours for and have loyalty to.
Defending denuvo or DRMs, exclusivity, price hikes for games, the persecution of emulators...
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Yeah, I do.
And pray tell, exactly what entitles you to tell me what my motivations are? You don't know me!
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Ok. You made your point, now move along.
The rest of us will keep following this promising emulator.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
OH MY GAWD, I could never have forseen that outcome!
And there was me thinking my comment would change hearts and minds /s
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Yes, I’m sure you care that poor little homeless Sony is losing money on a 10-year old game they’ve been ignoring for years.
Your other attempts at proving your points have failed and now you’re trying to take the moral high ground by talking about ethics and megacorps. If I told you the things Sony did, you’d be a hypocrite for defending them based on ethics, but you know this already. You’re simply being dishonest.
Move along indeed. I’m actually chuckling at a dude talking about the ethics of emulation and pretending that he cares about them.
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S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Yes it still is.Clear I own the game and a PS4. I want to play the game at 60fps on my PC. That's not piracy.
Sony ain't doing it so we gotta do what we gotta do.
Buggy Loop
Member
Who has ever said that it's piracy when you dump your own game purchased from a disc to PC and then use an emulator? Never heard this argument in 25+ years of emulators.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
You aren't playing the IP as intended.
Who has ever said that it's piracy when you dump your own game purchased from a disc to PC and then use an emulator? Never heard this argument in 25+ years of emulators.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Time to arrest this woman because she is pirating Bloodborne by not playing it as intended.
Buggy Loop
Member
nkarafo
Member
You can't be serious.
There's is no way this is just virtue signalling. Nobody just virtue signals for corporations. It's either Sony stockholders or loyal console warrior fanboys who can't comprehend others playing their exclusives.
Literally no fun allowed.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
They could have a done a 4K/60fps patch for this, but they were holding it for the PS6 launch. Serves them right for being greedy.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
You can't be serious.
There's is no way this is just virtue signalling. Nobody just virtue signals for corporations. It's either Sony stockholders or loyal console warrior fanboys who can't comprehend others playing their exclusives.
Literally no fun allowed.
Time to arrest this woman because she is pirating Bloodborne by not playing it as intended.
Much not actually reading and assuming being done here.
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MiguelItUp
Member
bender
What time is it?
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Buggy Loop
Member
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Much not actually English being typed here.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I seem to recall back-seat modding like you're doing used to be bannable also.
Seriously, stop being so petty.
Re-read what I posted: I didn't call anyone names, I stated at the jump that I do not care how people get their software, I restricted my criticism to emulation of actively sold products, and my harshest criticism was that in MY OPINION its unethical.
The only reason it "derailed"* is that a bunch of people jumped in with ad-hominem attacks telling me why my opinion was the way it was!
You know, you could just have disagreed and moved on.
That's what I'm doing,
*Since when is discussion of ethical concerns derailing?
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S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Actually reading is fundamental.
"Sony ain't doing it so we gotta do what we gotta do"
You mean much not being able to read and comprehend English was done, it was done by a few of you yikes!
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Says the character who thinks neo-geo is superior to saturn in 2D.
NeverYouMind
Member
It is though... Even with 4MB expansion cart it can't fully do all the 2D effects and layers of many of NeoGeo's games.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Ethics, proper use of english and neogeo vs saturn.
Nice thread.
Nice thread.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
They are ports built around neo-geo.
The Capcom Fighting ports on saturn not only looked better but came from hardware that was superior to neo-geo.
Also Saturn has 2D games neo-geo never got close to in fidelity.
nkarafo
Member
That's all i'm doing lately in NeoGAF emulation threads. Because you can't read two legit posts in a row before someone complaints about piracy or ethics.
This is a "Bloodborne on Shadps4" thread, not an "ethics on emulation" thread.
I clicked on the topic to read about the game's progression on the emulator, not about someone telling me how unethical i am because i want to play the damn game at 60fps.
If you really want to discuss this make a thread and i'll be happy to contribute.
You didn't even get that right.
Go back to that thread and read again.
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NeverYouMind
Member
CPS2 is very lacking. Also, I do not recall Capcom ever doing pixel art half as well as SNK could:
P.S. Some of the stuff they managed to pull off has never even been done by others.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Hold up.
I'm not calling you unethical for using it, or wanting to use it.
My position is that building emulators for systems that are still being sold is unethical, especially so when focussing on a particular "most wanted" game is used to promote its development.
Go back, re-read what I posted and engage with it as if it was argued in good faith.
You're entitled to suspect my "true" motivations, and more than welcome to completely disagree with my position, just please don't tell me why my opinion is what it is. Or else you'll simply end up on BLIST.
What specifically I don't like is the way emulation has become co-opted into a kind of "warez" mentality. Where people simply acquire stuff, because they can have it, and its free.
For example, people selling large hard-drives pre loaded with literally tens of thousands of old games, is simple exploitation in my opinion. Its as far removed from preservation as it can possibly get.
Again, in my opinion emulation is valuable because (1) It keeps old systems, and the games created for it, "alive" in the modern era. (2) I also believe there is value in nostalgia. I don't begrudge anyone downloading a copy of a game they played when they were much younger to re-live fond memories, (3) Thirdly, keeping development alive on legacy systems is great for both developers and end-users. Since August this year when I got back into it, I've re-discovered my love of writing 6502 assembler over 30 years separated from when I started my professional career in the industry as a bedroom coder in the 80's.
These things -and I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting right now- are why I think emulation is great and should be protected.
However, NONE of those things apply to the specific topic under discussion here.
I can, right now buy a brand new PS4 and a sealed, boxed copy of Bloodborne.
Sure, I can't run it on my PC, and in fact I couldn't even transfer the data to my pc from the PS4 without hacking it, or even via disk as I don't have a BD-ROM drive either. This I think is likely true for the overwhelming majority of people who would otherwise *LIKE* to be able to play Bloodborne on PC.
A far more likely, and PRACTICAL, option is to downloads a pre-patched torrent from somewhere. And doing that basically makes having the original software and hardware irrelevent. It devalues both, because over time it makes the real thing less valuable as commodity.
Now obviously, this is only a potential loss, noone's forced to do any of this. So lets look at what the "gain" is: I can play a game I want to play, in higher fidelity at no extra cost.
Which is fine, but don't you think that the same convenience/self-interest first desirability is no different from torrenting a copy of any other game?
Like I said, I don't blame or hate anyone for taking the opportunity to download a game, a movie, a tv-show or whatever. I know a lot of people are going to sail the seven seas! Its a no-brainer.
The obvious, natural conclusion I take from this is the whole "Piracy with added-steps" conception. I'm not being snarky, or facetious, I'm describing what you have left when you take emulation, and strip from it all the positives that it offers for actual preservation, historicity, and nostalgia, leaving only "cool thing it free".
Its just another sort of warez.
And that being the case, if your enterprise is creating software that facilitates this by catering to that market... I find it unethical.
Which fucking sucks, when the emulation community has struggled for years to legitimize itself in the face of far less founded claims of enabling piracy.
That's my take anyway, like I said feel free to disagree. Whether we see eye-to-eye is basically irrelevent.
Just don't mistake my perspective as being trolling or misrepresentative of my true thoughts on the matter.
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rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
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Nickolaidas
Member
Nah. Demon's Souls for the PS3 emulator has been 'fake-patched' on the emulator to run at 60 fps. And it was never patched on the console itself.
nkarafo
Member
I don't think it's unethical. And it's not like any emulator have hurt the sales of any console. It's quite the opposite really. You usually get good emulators for systems that are at least popular enough already.
It's not like the Atari Jaguar or the Philips CDi, or the Nuon, etc, failed because people could use emulators instead. The Jaguar/CDi didn't have any decent emulator since recently and the Nuon still doesn't even have one. So if it's the corporations you are worry about, they will be fine. The PS4 and the Switch sold really well. Heck the Switch is Nintendo's most successful console ever, is it not? You really think Yuzu/Ryujinx damaged it's sales?
If a console is good, it will sell. If it's bad it will fail. If i like a console i will buy it, the existence of an emulator is not going to convince me otherwise. Besides, emulators take years to mature, it's not like shadps4 will be able to have good enough compatibility/accuracy to actually replace a PS4 for a casual user in less than 5 years from now. In every case, a console will always be the more "problem free" way to play a game.
It's fine. Emulation is fine, corporations also use it. They are also getting bigger and bigger, the gaming industry is bigger than ever. And if you want to spend energy to fight about ethics, it might be more benefitial if you focus on publishers and their anti-cosumer tactics as they become worse and worse.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Bloodborne was first made to run at 60 by putting it in a modified container file and running on PS5, Google it,
I think Nintendo would beg to differ on that; the gradndaddy of all these scenarios being UltraHLE. You could argue Bleem, but Ultra wasn't commercial and frankly way more impressive,
Both controversies really set the emu-scene back quite badly.
Dead/Failed systems are a whole other thing to those that are actively being sold. Because it raises questions about fair competition in the marketplace.
The reality is that if any legitimate vendor found someone selling knock-off versions of their products, you'd expect them to act to stop them, right? Because if they tolerated it, potentially the floodgates would open and their business would suffer because the thing they are trading on as being uniquely theirs, would no longer be.
The above is the essence of IP law.
If you don't agree with that premise -not saying you do personally, only that its a position a person could take- then essentially your argument would be that ANY sort of counterfeiting/piracy is legitimate and permissible.
My challenge to you, is how do we differentiate emulation being "good" and piracy being "bad" when their function in the market is the same?
And I'm sorry to point this out, clearly people do make a strong differentiation, because otherwise my comments wouldn't have stirred up such a hostile reaction.
The bottom line being that my argument is the one that's ethically consistent, whereas the opposite view forces all kinds of moral gymnastics to defend!
Hence we get the usual cartoonish argumentation where the corporations are the "big bads" and therefore always wrong, and the hackers are the "plucky upstarts" in the heroic role.
Not to say that big corpos aren't often just as ruthless and unpleasant as they are perceived to be, just that reality is way more complex than this simple dichotomy.
The "good guys" are often just as morally suspect as those they battle, and the villains are the ones who sometimes bring a lot of benefit...
Sorry but I get sick of faux-moral calculus that always seems to be weighted towards whatever side is most beneficial to the person making the argument. I just wish people would be honest about what they actually are standing up for.
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TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
nkarafo
Member
I doubt Ultra HLE hurt N64's sales. It wasn't even that good, it could only play a few games with a lot of bugs and it was a pain to use. In fact i know of at least one person who bought an N64 because he wanted to play those games properly. But that's just anecdotal.
Emulators are free. You are not supposed to sell them. All these rom-filled setups you see people selling are illegal. Not because of the emulators inside them but because of the roms. Hunt the rom sites, hunt those who upload or sell them. The emulators themselves are legal and the last piece of the puzzle. And by shutting down emulators you don't gain much, piracy can still be achieved on a modded console and the result is often better since the real consoles don't suffer from emulation bugs.
Ok so why stop at emulators? We should also ban all the console mods and flash carts as well. Also, any system that has an open architecture and allows the install of cracks and hacks. PCs and android devices can be used for piracy, with or without emulators, even their native games get pirated. Consoles should also be banned from the market after they get cracked too otherwise they can also be used for piracy.
Why is it only the emulators the only "piracy enablers" that need to be hunted? I find that weird because compared to all the other methods, emulators seem like the least convenient way to pirate, especially when it comes to modern systems where emulation will be full of bugs, crashes and inaccuracies.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
CPS2 is superior and these gifs comically prove my pointCPS2 is very lacking. Also, I do not recall Capcom ever doing pixel art half as well as SNK could:
P.S. Some of the stuff they managed to pull off has never even been done by others.
nkarafo
Member
Doesn't matter if it's Neo-Geo or CPS2. The Saturn can't handle their later games without expansion carts.CPS2 is superior and these gifs comically prove my point
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Neo-geo can't do CPS2 quality games nor the fidelity some saturn exclusives like Golden Axe: The Duel offer for example.
NeverYouMind
Member
Is this a joke? Best Neo Geo sprites are like cover art, while the best CPS2 sprites are flat like colored panels. It is the same sprites people complained about Capcom reusing...CPS2 is superior and these gifs comically prove my point
*If you had made this argument about CPS3 and Naomi I would agree, but this is just embarrassing.
NeverYouMind
Member
FFS third-party games on Neo Geo looked better than Golden Axe: The Duel.
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S0ULZB0URNE
Member
This is comicalIs this a joke? Best Neo Geo sprites are like cover art, while the best CPS2 sprites are flat like colored panels. It is the same sprites people complained about Capcom reusing...
*If you had made this argument about CPS3 and Naomi I would agree, but this is just embarrassing.
Even your cherry picked pictures prove my point.
CPS2 games look what they are in comparison... a generation better.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Btw,
S0ULZB0URNE
is arguably the most dishonest poster on this board. He will deliberately lie and mislead and I’m convinced he’s a troll.
For example, he used release day screenshots of TLOU on PC to prove how bad it looks when he was well aware the textures had been fixed, but still tried to pass them off as current results.
Surprised his console warrior ass hasn’t seen the boot yet.
S0ULZB0URNE
is arguably the most dishonest poster on this board. He will deliberately lie and mislead and I’m convinced he’s a troll.For example, he used release day screenshots of TLOU on PC to prove how bad it looks when he was well aware the textures had been fixed, but still tried to pass them off as current results.
Surprised his console warrior ass hasn’t seen the boot yet.
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Variahunter
Member
This situation remind me of Nintendo.
For YEARS, we have been waiting on graphics remakes of SM64, OoT and Majora...
What do they gave us ? SM64 DS which was ugly as sin for that time, and the same when OoT and Majora launched on 3DS, graphically, they weren't even on the Gamecube level (you know the console that came just after the N64 in 2001...). They even butchered some parts in OoT (final Ganon battle) and a lot of parts in Majora.
Then came ports on PC. Finally we have SM64 with 3D CG models from the era, showing respect to the original artworks.
Adding Ray Tracing, randomizers, playing at 60 fps or much higher.
Same for OoT and soon Majora.
Things Nintendo should have done a very long time ago.
Now Sony wants to make us wait for Bloodborne, The Last Guardian, Shadow of The Colossus, Gravity Rush, aka the best games on the platform for me. Fine. I won't be waiting, I already paid the games and if Sony don't want to ports them I'll play them another way.
Their loss I guess.
For YEARS, we have been waiting on graphics remakes of SM64, OoT and Majora...
What do they gave us ? SM64 DS which was ugly as sin for that time, and the same when OoT and Majora launched on 3DS, graphically, they weren't even on the Gamecube level (you know the console that came just after the N64 in 2001...). They even butchered some parts in OoT (final Ganon battle) and a lot of parts in Majora.
Then came ports on PC. Finally we have SM64 with 3D CG models from the era, showing respect to the original artworks.
Adding Ray Tracing, randomizers, playing at 60 fps or much higher.
Same for OoT and soon Majora.
Things Nintendo should have done a very long time ago.
Now Sony wants to make us wait for Bloodborne, The Last Guardian, Shadow of The Colossus, Gravity Rush, aka the best games on the platform for me. Fine. I won't be waiting, I already paid the games and if Sony don't want to ports them I'll play them another way.
Their loss I guess.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Says the troll who follows me so much he's been on ignore till now.Btw,
For example, he used release day screenshots of TLOU on PC to prove how bad it looks when he was well aware the textures had been fixed, but still tried to pass them off as current results.
Surprised his console warrior ass hasn’t seen the boot yet.
None do. Post comparisons you been doing them already.