Paleblood is also the moon presence.
"The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
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Paleblood is also the moon presence.
"The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
He said there are 2 theories about the Paleblood including what you mentioned.
He acknowledge the fact that the Paleblood was too obtused even for him (even one of the execs chiming that he didn't get it either).
Miyazaki's interpretation for me is the most canon, but like he also said, he enjoys the players' conclusions as well.
But that's exactly why it makes more sense.
If it's just one third of a whole, any idiot would figure out you need three. But needing three whole cords to transcend the hunt makes it an actual puzzle, something that needed research to figure out.
Literally everything else that talks about the cord refers to it either as "the third cord" or just "this cord", nothing else talks about it as if it's a piece of a whole.
As to why it's called Third Umbilical Cord, I have absolutely no idea.
Ahh. Okay thanks. Yeah I meant the One Reborn. Easy boss fight by the way.
KittenMaster
Member
I believe the note is there both before and after you kill Rom. I might have (wrongly) assumed that it referred to the sky after you killed Rom because you can visit Yar'ghul optionally before the sky changes, but the note is placed where when you visit during a mandatory trip where you would see it while heading towards an area you need to progress that was previously blocked.
This is negalogic from the negaverse. You really cannot choose a solution because it makes less sense.
The only way I can see it working is that a great one physiology actually need 3 cords.
So the first one you find is "First Umbilical Cord".
The second one you find is "Second Umbilical Cord"
And the third one you find is "Third Umbilical Cord"
And the fourth one you find is "Fourth and Redundant Umbilical Cord"
But programming that is hard, so they are all "Third Umbilical Cord".
Although this is weird, because when you kill the prostitute, she should drop all three cords. Maybe that's what the church's creation of great ones lacked. Triple redundancy in umbilical cords.
That's nice, but if Miyazaki and the game contradict each other, the game wins. No need for him to say that he likes players' conclusions.
ElephantEyelash
Member
Has anyone read the 90 page thesis on the story lore that was posted on reddit yesterday? It's well put together, and is worth checking out.
http://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/33v7pq/lorethe_paleblood_hunt_an_indepth_90_page/
http://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/33v7pq/lorethe_paleblood_hunt_an_indepth_90_page/
This does not make sense. Miyazaki created the game and lore behind it and the game wins? Sorry, but no.
If he wanted the game to say something, he should have put it in the game, and not say it in interviews later. What if he changes opinions later? Does the game retroactively change too?
What would happen if he gave no interviews in the guide? Would the meaning of the game change for you?
What if he found religion? What if he became catholic and started saying "Paleblood is actually the wafer and the wine, with them you can trascend this earthly hunt that is mortal life".
It doesn't make less sense, it makes more sense in the context. If they are just one third, why the fuck did it take so long for them to figure out you need an entire cord? It makes no sense.
And it's not a race for them to necessarily be called First, Second and Third, haha, it's just what it's called. And you do need three cords.
Also, if the japanese version also says Third Cord, there's not really much room to discuss this.
Related notes:
"Three third cords"
"The Third Umbilical Cord precipitated the encounter with the pale moon"
"This Cord granted Mensis audience with Mergo"
"Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes."
The last one I guess would also make the interpretation that he sought the cord but didn't get it possible.
Only the item title (and only in the US version) calls it One Third of a Cord.
no, i just reread the interview and he says it's the sky AFTER you killed Rom.
KittenMaster
Member
I think the confusion here is that Rurunaki was talking about the Paleblood Sky, which is kind of a different subject than the Paleblood itself.
Only if we're assuming Paleblood is a name, instead of a title or an event/ritual of beckoning the moon presence.
Paleblood always happens when you have a Paleblood Sky, basically.
It would be too weird for them to use Paleblood in two completely separate meanings.
It took like two days to figure out the third cord thing. Which is also what a first timer playing bloodborne will take finishing it. You cannot say "This doesn't make sense cause it is meant to not make sense cause it is a puzzle". That is throwing out all logic.
I meant, whichever cord you found first, would be "the first cord", etc, etc. You need to find three of them.
If they are the third cord, that means that every great one has three umbilical cords. Which means killing Arianna should drop three of them instantly.
Not saying that it should be "One Third of a Cord". Well, maybe.
I am saying that they should be "First Cord", "Second Cord", "Third Cord" and "Fourth Cord", but programming limitations made them all "Third Cord", just like programming limitations make the "Behold! A Paleblood sky" message never change.
(programming limitations here is just lazyness. The third cord one is more complex, but changing the paleblood message should have been trivial)
The Moon Presence was never really called the0 Paleblood though. Plus the wording of "Behold! A Paleblood SKY," does not imply that it is THE Moon Presence. Otherwise it would just be "Behold! The Paleblood."
The moon presence is "Paleblood". The red sky that preceeds the moon presence is "Paleblood Sky".
Again, I will reread the interview. Because at most, the Paleblood refers to the Great Ones in general and not exclusively to just the Moon Presence.
This could also explain the umbilical cords summoning other Great Ones.
Honestly what makes the most sense is that all the items are "One of three umbilical cords".
Even though they are four.
I said "most" not "complete".
The game has a message that says "The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
And the classic
"Seek paleblood to transcend the hunt."
You don't really trascend the hunt without beating the moon presence.
I agree that Paleblood could speak of the great ones in gral tho, but killing only one great one doesn't trascend the hunt.
Even though they are four.
I said "most" not "complete".
The game has a message that says "The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
And the classic
"Seek paleblood to transcend the hunt."
You don't really trascend the hunt without beating the moon presence.
I agree that Paleblood could speak of the great ones in gral tho, but killing only one great one doesn't trascend the hunt.
That leaves the "the nameless presence....Paleblood" message tho.
re: Umbilical cords. Checking a wiki, it says 三本目のへその緒, which seems to mean...third eye umbilical cord??????????????? I get that the 本 is a counter for long things, but the eye part is weird. Have found the counter 本目 elsewhere so maybe it is just coincidence.
I didn't really think about that, but doesn't that support my theory? I don't think Arianna's baby would be the same as we are in the cord ending if we didn't kill it. The game makes it seem like a new great one is a big deal, which makes me think Arianna's baby was also a failure.
Though it is also quite unlikely that Laurence would be able to figure out why they're not working before the superior cosmic beigns did.
Sure. Probably all the other old ones only have one cord, ie, the natural occurring one in humans. Only problem I have wiith your theory is the lack of a second cord in the items. Which is why I feel the correct translation is "one of three", but dunno if the japanese item name works like that.
I don't know if anyone figured it out before our hunter.
People prolly were all "ok we eat one of the super gross things that should be enough right" and never figured out you needed three.
It's not like the game has anything else in threes?
Going through this right now. He's too eager to make the perfect connections rather than just acceptable ones, but this is a pretty good read otherwise.
I didn't know about this bit:
---
wow
---
man, the end of that thing. Basically a mic drop.
Vroadstar
Member
Thanks for this, such an awesome read!
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
You have it backwards, pale blood is the sky AFTER you kill Rom. It refers to the pale blue color of the sky mixed in with the blood red moon.
Your challenged to seek the pale blood as in, end the ritual of mensis that's deceiving the people of yarnum to reveal the pale blood. In this sky you can encounter the moon prescence, which is pale blood from a pale blood sky
Your challenged to seek the pale blood as in, end the ritual of mensis that's deceiving the people of yarnum to reveal the pale blood. In this sky you can encounter the moon prescence, which is pale blood from a pale blood sky
Yah it's basically just
Paleblood = Moon Presence -> Red Moon
Whether the Red Moon is integral to the Great Ones in general or solely the Moon Presence I dunno. But it does seem that the Red Moon and Moon Presence are tied together in some form. This is why the Red Moon shows up in the Dream at the exact moment the Moon Presence does. I take Paleblood sky to just mean a "Red Moon" sky. And not somehow tied to being pale by its namesake.
Also why there is a distinction between Paleblood and pale blood is weird. Because they're different things. Willem and the kin all have pale blood buuuut Moon Presence, Rom, and Amygdala don't.
Whether it's an oversight or intentional I don't know and obviously the follow up would be why do those specific ones have "real" blood and the others have pale blood.
The *only* thing I can think of is that all three of those are in a "dream" world where you fight them. So pale blood only exists in the "real/physical" plane? Mergo's Wet Nurse is the only one that doesn't exactly fit but it also does not bleed at all. It just tears apart like cloth and feathers. So I don't know what's up with that thing.
Every kin or great one you face in the physical plane bleeds pale blood and I don't know if that is actually very intentional or Moon Presence' blood and whatnot was an oversight.
Paleblood = Moon Presence -> Red Moon
Whether the Red Moon is integral to the Great Ones in general or solely the Moon Presence I dunno. But it does seem that the Red Moon and Moon Presence are tied together in some form. This is why the Red Moon shows up in the Dream at the exact moment the Moon Presence does. I take Paleblood sky to just mean a "Red Moon" sky. And not somehow tied to being pale by its namesake.
Also why there is a distinction between Paleblood and pale blood is weird. Because they're different things. Willem and the kin all have pale blood buuuut Moon Presence, Rom, and Amygdala don't.
Whether it's an oversight or intentional I don't know and obviously the follow up would be why do those specific ones have "real" blood and the others have pale blood.
The *only* thing I can think of is that all three of those are in a "dream" world where you fight them. So pale blood only exists in the "real/physical" plane? Mergo's Wet Nurse is the only one that doesn't exactly fit but it also does not bleed at all. It just tears apart like cloth and feathers. So I don't know what's up with that thing.
Every kin or great one you face in the physical plane bleeds pale blood and I don't know if that is actually very intentional or Moon Presence' blood and whatnot was an oversight.
So what exactly happened to Mergo / the baby in the Nightmare of Mensis. I expected you to have to swing at the crib to kill the infant after the fight with Mergo's Wet Nurse. But after you kill the boss, you get a period of no acknowledgment of your kill, before displaying "NIGHTMARE SLAIN" -- what happened to Mergo?
Also, what exactly are Gerhmans motivations?
Also, what exactly are Gerhmans motivations?
He is being forced by the Moon Presence to guide hunters through the hunt.
If you kill him without the three cords, you just take over Gerhman's position. You can see Gehrman lamenting his fate at one point, he is just in the hunter's dream begging for his suffering to be ended.
Not sure why Moon Presence fights you in the first place tho. Some people that Gehrman is MP's surrogate, so killing him may force MP to take you as surrogate, but not sure why you become a great one by killing him. Killing Gehrnam without the cords has the MP forcing you to take Gehrman's place, so it's the cords that let you resist him, but that still don't explain the transformation.
MickeyKnox
Member
The bit with Eileen happens even if you talk to her but don't continue or complete her questline, the grand cathedral lamp becomes inaccessible until you kill her.
Well, you're inmune to his magic thingy so I guess you're a menace for him.
What I don't get it's the transformation after the fight. I mean, you defeat the Moon Presence and the game shows the hunter all cool and well while looking at the M.P. death.
Suddenly, the screen goes to black and BAM! you're a slug. It's so fucking out of nowhere.
The last screen with your hunter is just him standing like nothing is happening, you aren't show dying, transforming.... nothing.
You're not even in the same spot in the ending even though it doesn't look like you're much capable of moving as a slug.
Because you are posing a threat to the Moon Presence's ability to reproduce. You just defeat its only guide for the hunt and now can't be transformed into that guide because of the three umbilical cords.
I assume Mergo dies, that's why it takes longer for the Nightmare Slain, and it's no coincidence that it's also the time for the baby to stop crying.
Your mission is to find the nightmare newborn and silence its harrowing cry, after all.
You kill Mergo's wet nurse, his death should be expected. Though I'm also not sure why you don't hit the crib as well. Some people say it's probably because they didn't want you to directly murder a baby, but you do that anyway in Arianna's quest.
Sure, it doesn't look like a regular baby, but we don't even know what Mergo looks like, if it even has a physical body.
Scrupulous
Banned
Why is the moon presence the final boss what makes it so much more important over the other kin that could justify it being the last boss and why its tied to my character consuming umbilicals. This ending has also totally lost me.
But you'd think that the whole point of the hunt is to create a hunter strong enough to be MP's surrogate. Gehrman and whatever hunter that replaces him only extends the search a little longer.
Dunno why fighting the candidate is part of the reproductive process.
Karsticles
Member
I don't think you are MP's surrogate. You become something's surrogate when you ingest the umbilical cords. Oedon, it seems. It's not clear what the moon presence is, to me.
If you don't eat the cords, the MP takes you over and enslaves you to to the Hunter's Dream.
If you do eat the cords, the MP tries to take you over, but fails. Instead, it attacks you, seeing you as a threat.
It doesn't make sense to me that you are a surrogate for the MP in the second situation. Why would it attack you?
I'm actually not clear on the MP's motives at all.
I don't think we'll ever know for sure about the Moon Presence's objectives, and I'm ok with that, personally.
Unless we get it through other means, like design works interviews or whatever, but I don't think there's anything in the game to tell us what the Moon Presence wants. It's one of the intentionally vague things for people to think about, and kinda fits the theme of "Great Ones are far beyong our understanding".
Unless we get it through other means, like design works interviews or whatever, but I don't think there's anything in the game to tell us what the Moon Presence wants. It's one of the intentionally vague things for people to think about, and kinda fits the theme of "Great Ones are far beyong our understanding".
One of the cord's is from Oedon's kid (by Arianna) and the other is from Mergo (by Mergo's Wet Nurse). The other two don't really have a named origin (Iosefka had one, which doesn't mention an specific old one but from her origins we may assume Ebrietas?, and Gehrman had one in the real world version of the Hunter's dream, which we may assume is from MP itself).
Assuming that the cords make you the surrogate of whatever old one was the father, having three of different old ones inside you may make you independent of any old one.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
they probably just want to reset a cycle on earth to prevent human AI wars :kappa
That probably applies to all Great Ones. We don't know fuck about Amygdala, Oedon or Mergo or Kos some say Kosm, for example.
Hell, in Oedon's case a lot of things I read are just speculation with no really insight on the game but it randomly fits because dude's not corporeal so we can make him fit everywhere (like dude being the father of everyone).
Yeah, I don't really think the hunt is designed to find the Great Ones a new surrogate. Is it implied that Yharnam is a hunter?
Maybe the hunt is just that, a hunt for the beasts. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe the Moon Presence just wants to ensure that the scourge of the beast doesn't infect enough humans to prevent the Great Ones from having a surrogate. But each night, the hunter never seems to get to the root of the "infection" but instead either succumbs to it or manages to survive the night whilst having killed a few beast and awakens in the morning only to live that as a human rather than a hunter.
Only two hunters will gain the insight during the night of the hunt to discover that there are Great Ones - the player's character and Gehrman.
Yeah, Oedon is by far the one we have more information on.
But again, I think it's intentionally vague.
It can be shown in Rom's transition, and all they expected to learn when she ascended, but it was worthless.
"The Byrgenwerth spider hides all manner of rituals, certain to reveal nothing, for true enlightenment need not be shared."
Of course, that only means anything in this context if you also agree with me that "The vacuous spider" seems more like a title given out of spite than Rom being actually empty. After all, Micolash still wanted Kosm to grant them eyes, even though he knows about Rom. It wouldn't make sense for him to also want to be devoid of thought if he actually believes Rom became vacuous when she was granted eyes by Kos.
But again, I think it's intentionally vague.
It can be shown in Rom's transition, and all they expected to learn when she ascended, but it was worthless.
"The Byrgenwerth spider hides all manner of rituals, certain to reveal nothing, for true enlightenment need not be shared."
Of course, that only means anything in this context if you also agree with me that "The vacuous spider" seems more like a title given out of spite than Rom being actually empty. After all, Micolash still wanted Kosm to grant them eyes, even though he knows about Rom. It wouldn't make sense for him to also want to be devoid of thought if he actually believes Rom became vacuous when she was granted eyes by Kos.
The cords definitely do something.
Iosefka's one says "Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes. The only choice, he knew, if man were to ever match Their greatness."
Which means Master Willem probably obtained his eyes/head tentacles from the cord. I assume Willem didn't really fight MP or any other great one, so the process is independent of actually fighting the Moon Presence. Which means the Moon Presence fights you because you are a menace, not as part of the reproductive cycle Consuming all three make you into a little squid. Dunno how Rom fits with this. Was she also given a bunch of cords?
Which also means the MP is conducting the hunt just for kicks, probably just to keep the other great ones (in particular, Mergo) from gaining power.
Iosefka's one says "Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes. The only choice, he knew, if man were to ever match Their greatness."
Which means Master Willem probably obtained his eyes/head tentacles from the cord. I assume Willem didn't really fight MP or any other great one, so the process is independent of actually fighting the Moon Presence. Which means the Moon Presence fights you because you are a menace, not as part of the reproductive cycle Consuming all three make you into a little squid. Dunno how Rom fits with this. Was she also given a bunch of cords?
Which also means the MP is conducting the hunt just for kicks, probably just to keep the other great ones (in particular, Mergo) from gaining power.
tamaster92
Member
random thought/theory
if its THIRD cord and we know that the great ones have tried impregnating others before
perhaps it is quite literally the third type of cord used?
As in, they tried, it failed. So they make a second cord, it fails so they make a third and there we are.
Dunno I'm still reading stuff so might not fit but...
if its THIRD cord and we know that the great ones have tried impregnating others before
perhaps it is quite literally the third type of cord used?
As in, they tried, it failed. So they make a second cord, it fails so they make a third and there we are.
Dunno I'm still reading stuff so might not fit but...
Hmm, I don't think just consuming the cords make you a great one. I'm not sure how defeating the Moon Presence fits into this, but it seems to.
The "Three Third Cords" note is in the same place as the "The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood" note, so they should be related. Either you need three cords to have audience with the nameless moon presence (this event could be what's called paleblood), or after beckoning the moon presence (and potentially losing Gehrman to it in the process) they figured out they needed three third cords to resist it, or something like that?
EDIT: Actually, couldn't that also fit the "Hunt the Great Ones. Hunt the Great Ones." not into all of this? I never really understood that note, but if they figured it out all the way through, that you need three cords and you need to kill the moon presence to become a Great One, maybe this not is to represent "we must consume three cords and kill a great one in order to evolve."
Also fits the recurring theme of evolution
"Master Willem was right, evolution without courage will be the ruin of our species" (or something like that)
And also the Metamorphosis runes.
EDIT2: Ignore that, makes no sense, you can consume three cords before killing other great ones and that won't give you the ending right there, so the game doesn't support this last point.
The hunt was originally to stop the people who got beastly transformations. It seems to have been usurped by the MP via Gehrman into a hunt of the other great ones.
It is unclear if Willem consumed his cord, but it seems improbable, since you can find it without opening Willem's gut for it. Willem was still transformed due to the cord. It seems there were other uses for the cord besides eating them, which nobody probably thought of.
The cords only give you the power to resist the Moon Presence, which is why you don't transform into a squid if you consume three and then kill Mergo.
Veritigo_X
Member
One interesting character we never really get info about is the Irreverent Izzy. He seems like an interesting hunter due to his use of beast themed weapons (beast claws and beast roar) and his name implies a lack of respect towards the hunt or at least the religious aspect of the hunt. Also, the Yahargul hunter with the beast claws is called the follower of Izzy according to the strategy guide.
I like the idea that the Moon Presence involvement made the hunt go from beast hunt to great one hunt.
About Willem, maybe the removal of his cord was what left he in such state? Would be a better connection to the imposter having his cord than "she has it because reasons"
Yeah, we have nothing on him, aside from him being mentioned and the fact that he seems like kind of a big deal.
Archibald has a much more clear importance to the overall lore than Izzy, imo.
Hopefully we'll get more info on him in the hopefully already in development DLC?
It seems the choir had control of Byrgenwerth, they are guarding Willem who is catatonic and useless.
Iosefka (not sure if the real or fake one) is using the cord to create Celestial Mobs, which suggests the transformation of Willem may be incomplete.
Not sure why the choir didn't kill Rom. Maybe they didn't realize that Rom was under the water? Maybe they didn't have a hunter strong enough -which is ridiculous, considering the fuckers you find in yahargul after killing Rom-? They certainly know that "the spider is keeping our master from us", which doesn't gel with the choir having control of Byrgenwerth. So I have to believe they knew of Rom but couldn't find her.
Or they knew, but didn't want her dead.