Why start now?
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Brexit | OT3 | A Feast for Crows
- Thread starter theaface
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Why start now?
PJV3
Member
This is probably not a million miles away from the truth, we obviously didn't learn much.
report on the BBC just popped up on the legal question "do we have to pay money"
Their conclusion is 'no' but it would be foolhardy and have massive ramifications is we did not pay
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41635217
Their conclusion is 'no' but it would be foolhardy and have massive ramifications is we did not pay
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41635217
Bu..but Boris said we should tell the EU to 'go whistle'. I'm just not sure who to believe.
KarneeKarnay
Member
I think the part that is getting people confused was all the information that was coming out around Brexit, that showed the UK putting in more than it was receiving.
However even if you buy that, we want all the benefits of being in the EU, without being in the EU, for at least two years and we expect to pay nothing for it?
That's bull, nuts and insane.
However even if you buy that, we want all the benefits of being in the EU, without being in the EU, for at least two years and we expect to pay nothing for it?
That's bull, nuts and insane.
JonnyDBrit
Member
This combined with That Fucking Bus painted a simplistic picture of the relationship we had with the EU, as well as how the position could realign.
As far as I can tell, May was offering to continue pay our normal yearly contribution for those 2 years.
But, that still seems useless:
- any new legislation wouldn't be implemented by the UK. This would cause encourage member states to delay implementation for 2 years, slowing down EU legislation.
- the UK would continue to be involved in future legislation, delaying things it doesn't like (etc) for 2 years.
- new EU employees getting pensions, new EU projects being signed. The liabilities of the EU will increase over those 2 years, and the UK hasn't agreed to pay towards the existing liabilities or the long-term liabilities.
It would be ridiculous for the EU to sign up for May's transition deal.
There was plenty of information out there if people actually looked instead of reveling in being a low information voter.
I have zero sympathy for any brexiteers that feel cheated. The info was easily available.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Some profits?
How many jobs does 2 billion a month pay for? Those people vote.
People have a go at me for being simplistic. Sigh.
I don't understand your last sentence? The UK government and its opposition know exactly that the EU rules apply, which is why (unfortunately) we are leaving the single market and customs union as per the Article 50 letter.
KarneeKarnay
Member
I want to be like that, but I often wonder if people were lied to like the Brits were, would they not have done the same thing?
Ultimately a small majority of people voted to leave. With a percentage that fine, you can't help but wonder how all the lies and disinformation factored into it. The information is out there, but more often than not people stick to one form of new media and use that to digest info.
I'm guilty of this. I use Sky and BBC more that I probably should, but then I also did some research before the vote. The majority however will just watch tv or read a single newpaper and base their whole decision off of that. It sounds dumb and is, but that's how a large chunk of people in every democracy decide to vote.
I think if the vote had been delayed a week or even a day, we could have seen a totally different result.
Maybe, but for an issue of this importance you have a responsibility to gather as much information as possible imo.
"But I didn't know" brexiteers piss me off more than true believers. Atleast the true believers were certain of their choice.
Psychotext
Member
I didn't even need to look at the comments on that article to know EXACTLY how they'd go.
Camp Freddie
Member
Except it's not £2 Billion/year they'll lose, just like we don't gain £350M/week by leaving the EU.
We aren't going to stop buying German cars and buy... British cars? Cars that aren't made in Europe?
It's true that Germany will lose some money as tariffs make British and non-EU goods more competitive. Maybe I'll buy a Dyson vacuum instead of a Bosch if the price changes by 10%. Maybe I won't.
However, if Germany compromised on the integrity of the EU's finances, single market and/or customs union, they'd lose much more money and job security.
And Germans aren't immune to patriotism. If British workers at Sunderland car plants will put their jobs at risk and vote leave, then Germans will also be willing to vote for a tough Germany rather than one that rolls over for the UK.
NekoFever
Member
BBC comments are as bad as the Mail, if not worse. In fact it's probably the same people. Everything is the EU's fault.
Headline: Cat gets stuck in tree
Top comment: Would have been rescued quicker if it wasn't for EU health and safety ladder regulations and political correctness, etc etc.
Headline: Ed Sheeran has number one album
Top comment: Imagine the record sales when we leave the EUSSR and can do trade deals with Liberia and Sri Lanka.
I don't know why they don't just get rid of comments completely. They're complete brainless garbage and eradicating them would be far better than only allowing comments on seemingly random articles.
MudoSkills
Volcano High Alumnus (Cum Laude)
I mean, everything is fucked but at least Frankie Boyle has been on top form for the past 18 months or so: https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/17/tory-power-sustained-cruel-confidence-tricks
Psychotext
Member
I assume it must be because these rich retired old fucks must just be sat at the computer waiting for something to vent their spleen over.
Would love to see the demographics on it.
Aren't Dysons now made in Poland or something?
Psychotext
Member
Shhhh... we like Dyson because he's a proper English Brexiteer.
Most Dyson stuff is made in Malaysia and Singapore.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Basic social democracy is apparently a 'cult' now apparently, lol
Dirtyshubb
Member
Amazing stuff, he has such a vivid and pessimistic way of describing things that i absolutely love.
"Im sure at some point in this countrys history someone, somewhere did an excellent job. But sadly well never know who that person was, because whoever it was that should have recorded the fact was doing a piss-poor job." LOL
Man... these comments
Bu bub ubububu buuuut what about the losses the EU will take
One union of 27 countries will share the loss of the UK
The UK will on its own have to bear the burden of losing 27 free trade partners.
It is a non issue for the EU
Camp Freddie
Member
Yep. I suspect his support for Brexit is entirely selfish, since he pays tariffs and other trade barriers to import from Malaysia while his German competitors don't.
jimbobsmells
Member
Yup its all done in Far East now. Which made it hilarious when Dyson announced his electric car intentions and some where calling it the return of British innovation and engineering. Innovation with no jobs created in the UK.
There's nothing new there we didn't already know before the referendum. We had the same analysis. But 17m idiots have their fingers in their ears. My glass remains half empty on Brexit.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Im getting more and more convinced Brexit wont happen as the days go by.
Multiple reports of either how damaging Brexit will be for us, how much extra its going to cost, seemingly inevitable for a no deal situation, pushing for MPs to vote on the final deal, increased talk of cancelling Brexit (Shelagh Fogarty on LBC had a whole section today about "Do you think Brexit will happen/Can we afford Brexit?".
I said that things could go either way but considering the speed at which Brexit damaging reports are releasing i just cant see the charade being allowed to continue much longer.
Again maybe im reading too much into it but the narrative is definitely changing to one that makes it an actual possibility that Brexit wont go ahead.
The only two arguments for Brexit now are:
"We will make it work, most of the world isnt the EU"
"We voted on it and must go ahead with it"
Neither of those take anything other than stupidity into consideration so i dont think the argument will continue to hold up in the face of the avalanche of anti-Brexit news releasing recently.
Multiple reports of either how damaging Brexit will be for us, how much extra its going to cost, seemingly inevitable for a no deal situation, pushing for MPs to vote on the final deal, increased talk of cancelling Brexit (Shelagh Fogarty on LBC had a whole section today about "Do you think Brexit will happen/Can we afford Brexit?".
I said that things could go either way but considering the speed at which Brexit damaging reports are releasing i just cant see the charade being allowed to continue much longer.
Again maybe im reading too much into it but the narrative is definitely changing to one that makes it an actual possibility that Brexit wont go ahead.
The only two arguments for Brexit now are:
"We will make it work, most of the world isnt the EU"
"We voted on it and must go ahead with it"
Neither of those take anything other than stupidity into consideration so i dont think the argument will continue to hold up in the face of the avalanche of anti-Brexit news releasing recently.
KarneeKarnay
Member
As much as I want this to be true, its going to be a coup in the Conservative leadership to stop it. May's not popular, so a coup could happen, but we'd have to see a lot more groundswell around a replacement before that happens. Right now that only person who could fit the bill is Boris, but considering how much the man is hated right now, you'd struggle for the popular vote.
If the backdown of the century were to take place it'd be with a outliner. Someone looked favorably on and at the very least isn't black, gay, a rapist, pedophile, homophobe or single,
NekoFever
Member
There's definitely been a step up in the rhetoric about a second referendum, whether Article 50 can be unilaterally withdrawn, and the Brexit impact reports in the last couple of weeks. Even talk from Brexiteers about Remainer plots has started happening again. Maybe post-Florence?
I wouldn't read too much into it, to be honest, as much as I'd like to. Things need to get worse before anything like that would gain serious traction.
I wish I could believe that.
It's happening man. Even though most in govt know it's a folly to do it, will of the people and all that shit.
Also the will of the people can never change apparently.
CharmingCharlie
Member
Yeah erm no we are way past the point of being able to stay. The price the UK would have to pay politically and financially to stay in the EU is too high now. If all of a sudden we went "you know what mateys think we will stay after all" then you can bet the rest of the EU will want compensation for all the shit brexit has caused so you can wave goodbye to the rebate and probably a huge increase in what we will have to pay to stay in.
Secondly the EU will want a renewed commitment from the UK to show it is seriously about the EU project which means the UK would probably have to wave all of it's special concessions and probably even provide a time table for joining the Euro.
Basically we are fucked if we leave and we are fucked if we stay in.
Daffy Duck
Member
Of course the Frenchies would say that, look at them influencing us again, we're better off without this lot.
killer_clank
Member
I take the other tack here and argue that most legal opinion seems to think Article 50 is revocable (including the person who wrote it) and only describes what should happen if a country wants to leave. If the U.K. did revoke it and the EU started trying to mess with the UKs membership terms and opt outs im not entirely sure theyd get anywhere with that legally.
Even if the Brits make an about turn at the last second, who's to say that EU won't be pressing for an advantage? even if we were to ignore vindictive reasoning, they'd surely try to cut away some cruft and make triply sure that the UK will never ever again even think of leaving. It'd probably mean the end for the GBP, at the very least.
If we do cancel Brexit(which is the best outcome, short of time travel) we will probably make some comprimises and give up a few priveleges we have. I would say it is worth it however the Leave voters would cry and shout saying the see the EU is being unfair and taking away out sovereignty.
There's also no chance of UK reversing Brexit on the back of equal or worse terms, there would be riots. And yeah sadly the Brexiteers are the bottom of the society barrel so they'd definitely riot like it's 2011.
Dirtyshubb
Member
I still don't get the idea that the EU would punish us if we decided to stay.
They would gain more by having us come crawling back with our tail between our legs begging to stay than by justifying brexiters hatred of the EU by trying to punish us.
They come out looking like the good guys, while also sending a message to all the other nations that this is what happens when you go against the EU, even the 'mighty' great Britain has to beg.
Theu have also already come out and said if we wanted to cancel and stay we could, no problem.
They would gain more by having us come crawling back with our tail between our legs begging to stay than by justifying brexiters hatred of the EU by trying to punish us.
They come out looking like the good guys, while also sending a message to all the other nations that this is what happens when you go against the EU, even the 'mighty' great Britain has to beg.
Theu have also already come out and said if we wanted to cancel and stay we could, no problem.
If brexit is cancelled I dont see the EU punishing the UK either.
But it will most likely ask the UK to prove its long term commitment in the EU, because the EU obviously will not want to deal with this circus again in a few years (especially if this time the UK takes the time to plan it, and from the inside).
But it will most likely ask the UK to prove its long term commitment in the EU, because the EU obviously will not want to deal with this circus again in a few years (especially if this time the UK takes the time to plan it, and from the inside).
Join the Euro, finally switch everything over to Metric, start driving on the right, join Schengen so we can finally take trains through the tunnel to more than 3 places
My in-laws would have heart attacks
you can not have a second referendum, even those of you who are mad as hopping hell must see that, if remain won you would then have to have a 3rd and final one. You have to be fair to democracy, you can not suddenly say now we won then tough, as leavers would have just as much right to ask for a re-run
I just don't see any way for a referendum to be done on anything as it would be political suicide for any party... ignore the Lib Dems wanting one, that was just them hoping they found a source of votes for the GE
I just don't see any way for a referendum to be done on anything as it would be political suicide for any party... ignore the Lib Dems wanting one, that was just them hoping they found a source of votes for the GE
SlipperyFishes
Banned
Dirtyshubb
Member
Or maybe the brexit campaign was utterly flawed with the remain side being useless and the brexit side being full of lies and now everyone has a better idea of what leaving actually means.
This isn't a game, situations change, things become clearer and as a result outcomes can change.
The fear mongering of potential riots are stupid too. Who is gonna riot? The Beetroot faced pub lads maybe but I don't see OAPs and hedge fund managers taking to the streets to protest brexit being cancelled.
KarneeKarnay
Member
That's where I am leaning towards. If the British who have been the most powerful of the generally anti-eu of members decided it wasn't a good idea, it would probably warn off most others.
I got a few problems with this. You are right the majority voted. An incredibly slim majority. We have proof that people influential within Leave campaign, actively lies and spread disinformation to the public on the vote. We also didn't employ any rules that should have been taken into account. The country was split down the middle, there was a majority but it wasn't a clear win. Based on this, it's entirely democratic to call for another one.
There is a lot of evidence to back up the claim that the majority would support a back-down from Brexit. It's not political suicide as once believed.
I agree 100% am I am not baiting (see post above) but simply put can you ever see a situation where the incumbent Government goes, we are having a second referendum because the leave side lied!
I would argue every GE is based on lies...
I just can not see the public mood has changed as enough, as what happens if public mood changes back, would you have another referendum?
Daffy Duck
Member
The stupid Bint in Number 10 thinks it's a game.
KarneeKarnay
Member
Rarely can you point to an image directly proving the lie.
My argument is not based on blatant lies, we know they did, I think they even admitted it? but look through a manifesto it will be full of hot air that never comes to pass, and parties go to the public based on promises they wont get, yet we don't get a do-over.
Politicians lie, that is what needs changing, I stand by my feelings, a second referendum does nothing but open the argument for a 3rd, unless there was a landslide.... and what if leave won again!!
Hard Brexit!
and remember the politicians, the same ones who lied, can stop this.... they could vote this down in a heartbeat based on lies, they could own up, resign, call Brexit a shame, apologise, go and live in Argentina for the rest of their days.