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[Mike Works]

How would showing environments, such as the ruins on Delta Halo, or whatever it was called, spoil anything?

 

[Littleberu]

There weren't any Earth levels to KEEP!!!! That E3 demo was f*cking it! They didn't make some massive Earth campaign here. They followed their original design pretty closely.

If you don't like the character swapping, that's fine, but I happened to love it (and so did many others). I enjoyed it with MGS2 and I enjoyed it here.

Their original design? You mean the jungle and snow warthog? Oh no, that wasn't their original design, that was just printed into EGM, but for false advertisement purpose I suppose. Genius. They trully are genius.

Seriously though, swapping in Halo 2 didn't bother me as much as it did in MGS2, but I didn't like the fact that it felt like the Arbiter's levels WERE Halo 2, and not those of Masterchief.

 

[Sean]

Wrong, it was known as far back as 2003 that the game would take place on another halo and a space station hovering above a gas giant, as well as on earth. Bungie never said earth would be the focus of the game, people just drew that conclustion because that's all bungie could SHOW without spoiling the rest of it.

Yep, here is the quote...

Towards the end of the video, writer/cinematics director Joseph Staten mentions that Halo 2 will be "a galactic romp from one place to the next," and infers it will contain numerous interplanetary locales. He also gave some details, mentioning that players would be transported "from the ruins of Halo to ancient forerunner facilities in the atmospheres of gas giants." Art director Marcus Lehto also obliquely mentions said facilities, saying he wanted to create existing "damage from 900,000 years ago."

 

[firex]

I don't buy for a minute that Halo 2's ending wasn't rushed. But I'm not blowing it out of proportion, the game was great. They just could have put in a few more levels to build up to the cliffhanger, I thought. And I personally have no problem with a cliffhanger since based upon how good Halo 2 was I know I'll buy Halo 3, and I'd rather they actually give us a cliffhanger to keep this story going rather than just give us a third game with an all-new story. Which is pretty much the same way I feel about HL2.

 

[Ironclad]

I agree. However, the XBOX crowd seems to have been raised in the ways of Tom Clancy. They want their military stuff, damn it! I'm so SICK of these "war games". Thankfully, Halo 2's earth levels managed to avoid falling into the pit o' generic war game...

Yeah, by allowing you to travel along the beaches, and through freeways. Had this supposed "Earth campaign" existed, how many homes would we have rid from the covenant by now? Countless, thats how many. I would much rather fight on high charity, or delta halo, than say protect some bland millitary outpost.

On a side note, I think once Bungie releases Halo 3, they should work on a Halo prequel. If anybody here has read the books, the fight on Reach sounds awesome. The books don't go into great detail so this leaves the doors wide open for Bungie to let us fight alongside other Spartans.

 

[Littleberu]

Ohohoh, Just found an interesting quote...

It’s really the story of how Bungie made this amazing E3 demo, without wasting a single resource. Almost everything you see at the show and in the feature, will make it either intact or in some form to the final game. So we look at new game features, new gameplay mechanics, we check out new aliens and vehicles and the thing I’m personally most excited about – environments.

Well well.

 

[Ironclad]

Towards the end of the video, writer/cinematics director Joseph Staten mentions that Halo 2 will be "a galactic romp from one place to the next," and infers it will contain numerous interplanetary locales. He also gave some details, mentioning that players would be transported "from the ruins of Halo to ancient forerunner facilities in the atmospheres of gas giants." Art director Marcus Lehto also obliquely mentions said facilities, saying he wanted to create existing "damage from 900,000 years ago."

Now doesn't this sound more interesting?

 

[drohne]

i don't even know what you'd like to think that illustrates. do you think there's something in the word "environment" that implies "earth?" what show does that quote refer to anyway?

 

[Future]

-------------
True, stuff does get dropped, but Halo2 looks like it dropped everything except the dual-wielding.
-------------


Yeah, and as others said....it's bungie's fault for letting us know too much. A year ago I was remembering Bungie talking about Elites using flashlights to find you while hiding in the shadows, putting down your guns to sprint across vast open spaces, peering around corners, completely revamped AI, lots of environmental destruction, increased variety of vehicles, weapons and enemies, all put together with the impressive visuals of E3.

What we GOT was basically a fine tuned version of Halo. The AI doesn't seem much differen aside from the fact they make a little more effort to find you when you hide, and are more apt to jump in vehicles...even the one your driving. We got the ability to jack vehicles and dual wield...logical extensions to the gameplay of the first. We got a few more enemies, even thought the majority of the time you'll be fighting against the main cast you fought against in the first. We got better graphics and a few extra weapons to spice things up. Really the only thing in Halo 2 that we didn't have to deal with in the first was enemy snipers, cuz they definately demand different strategy

But we didn't anything that really changed the way we play Halo 2 from the way we played the original. I loved Halo 2, but after all this hype and information thrown around..THAT is still disappointing. And combine this with the abrupt ending that seems like a mission starter than a conclusion, then it does feel like they had to rush and cut loads of stuff to make this holiday.

 

[Littleberu]

i don't even know what you'd like to think that illustrates. do you think there's something in the word "environment" that implies "earth?" what show does that quote refer to anyway?

To the E3 Demo of course.

 

[drohne]

...and halo 2's earth levels are clearly a redesigned version of the e3 earth city level. big chunks of it are in the final game intact.

 

[pj]

Ok, so Bungie are genius because they hid everything, lost precious developpement time for a false E3 level to demonstrate things that could've been shown in a true level and made you believe that the game would be set on earth? Wow. I didn't know lying made you a genius.

When they made the E3 level, they had every intention of including it in the game (according to what they said in a pre e3 oxm interview), but when they tried to put it on a non-debug xbox, they realized it couldn't be done (according to the making of dvd), so they had to cut and rearrange some things. If you had actually played halo 2, you'd know that MANY parts of the e3 demo are in the final game in one way or another.

And they didn't make ME believe the game would be set on earth, idiots like you, whose only pre-release information about the game was the commercial, drew that conclusion.

 

[Ramirez]

Im trying to figure out why you guys are still arguing with the douche.

 

[Anyanka]

On the DVD do they not say you start on Earth, go into space and then the game has a huge grand finale back on Earth? How can they say this on the LE DVD then claim this was what they intended?

 

[pj]

How would showing environments, such as the ruins on Delta Halo, or whatever it was called, spoil anything?

It would ruin your first impression of it. Instead of seeing that structure and going "OH SWEET I WASN"T EXPECTING THAT," you'd say "oh yeah, I saw that in egm."

 

[Ironclad]

...and halo 2's earth levels are clearly a redesigned version of the e3 earth city level. big chunks of it are in the final game intact.

Yup, they use the same voice clips, and when your landing in a Pelican in one of the levels, it is the exact same scene as the e3 2003 demo. The only thing I am really dissapointed with in Halo 2 is the fact that the "combo" melee system is gone. That was in e3 2003 demo, and it seems to be working fine. Leaning looked horribly awkward though.

 

[Littleberu]

...and halo 2's earth levels are clearly a redesigned version of the e3 earth city level. big chunks of it are in the final game intact.

Ok, so now, the E3 level is in Halo 2. I thought It wasn't, and it's in!!! Oh god, you guys are hard to follow.

When they made the E3 level, they had every intention of including it in the game (according to what they said in a pre e3 oxm interview), but when they tried to put it on a non-debug xbox, they realized it couldn't be done (according to the making of dvd), so they had to cut and rearrange some things.

Ok, and you believe this? Humm... HL2 Source was also stolen by some German guy who chatted with Gabe. Aha-aha-aha. And he wanted him to come to North America and all. Ahahaha. And then the German governement heard about that and... oh god... Comon, let's not believe everything you read or hear.

It would ruin your first impression of it. Instead of seeing that structure and going "OH SWEET I WASN"T EXPECTING THAT," you'd say "oh yeah, I saw that in egm."

Yeah, that's what most developpers do, because they have time constraint. They don't have time to build something only for show. On the top of my head, only Kojima does that, and he does because he has the team/budget to do it.

 

[pj]

On the DVD do they not say you start on Earth, go into space and then the game has a huge grand finale back on Earth? How can they say this on the LE DVD then claim this was what they intended?

When do they say that?

 

[drohne]

the scripting of the final earth level is entirely different from the e3 demo, but it incorporates the e3 demo's environments. you haven't actually played it, i guess? :/

 

[Deku Tree]

So Bungie intentionally teased us with screenshots like this one which strongly suggests and earth invasion:

Then they intentionally had an ad campaign that used slogans like "the earth will never be the same" which make people think 'earth invasion'.

And finally they intentionally end the game

Spoiler

right as the earth invasion looks like it's about to start

.

Pretty messed up if you ask me.

 

[Anyanka]

In the main feature.

 

[Ironclad]

Ok, so now, the E3 level is in Halo 2. I thought It wasn't, and it's in!!! Oh god, you guys are hard to follow.

No, but they took some of the NPC animations, and voice clips from it. If you listen to what the ODST's say in the demo, one of the says, "When they said they were sending reinforcements, I didn't expect them to send a Spartan." Now play Halo 2, the level where you have to take down the scarab, and you will hear the exact same line, by the exact same actor.

 

[pj]

Ok, and you believe this? Humm... HL2 Source was also stolen by some German guy who chatted with Gabe. Aha-aha-aha. And he wanted him to come to North America and all. Ahahaha. And then the German governement heard about that and... oh god... Comon, let's not believe everything you read or hear.

Yes I believe it. They made a pretty big deal of how the e3 2001 demo of halo was pretty much a giant waste of time since none of it made it into the final game. They were practically making fun of themselves and said they didn't want to make that mistake again. And they almost didn't..

Play outskirts and metropolis and tell me they aren't HEAVILY influenced by the e3 demo. The first thing you see on outskirts is a marine standing under a flickering light for christ's sake.

 

[Littleberu]

the scripting of the final earth level is entirely different from the e3 demo, but it incorporates the e3 demo's environments. you haven't actually played it, i guess? :/

Yeah, that's why it isn't the same level. Different scripting and Level Design =/= the same level. The level worked pretty well, had a backstory, but now, it didn't work on non-debug Xbox. So they remade it? That's totally bullshit. Why can't you say it was bullshit? It's that hard to say?

 

[Ironclad]

The original Halo was supposed to have dinosaurs, so obviously things get cut.

 

[pj]

In the main feature.

Minutes:seconds?

 

[Littleberu]

No, but they took some of the NPC animations, and voice clips from it. If you listen to what the ODST's say in the demo, one of the says, "When they said they were sending reinforcements, I didn't expect them to send a Spartan." Now play Halo 2, the level where you have to take down the scarab, and you will hear the exact same line, by the exact same author.

Oh, that, I didn't know. But I can assure you the rest of the level isn't the same as the E3 Demo. Metropolis IS influenced by the E3 Demo If I remember (it's the bridge level, right?), but then again, it could have been after the E3 Demo.

 

[drohne]

And finally they intentionally end the game

Spoiler

right as the earth invasion looks like it's about to start

.

Spoiler

there isn't much of an earth invasion at the end of the game either. :lol i think it's another small covenant fleet and that forerunner ship that truth and the chief are on. i think one of the problems with setting the game against a full-scale earth invasion, with a nuclear bombardment as depicted in the first teaser, is that it'd be inappropriately depressing. halo's meant to be a stirring action game, and you couldn't really preserve that mood if you were dealing with millions (billions?) of human civilian casualties. if halo 2's victory felt hollow, how hollow would that feel?

edit: iirc, the "it didn't work on xbox" comment referred to that initial teaser with all the lighting effects and self-shadowing rather than the e3 demo. the e3 stuff was cut because it "wasn't fun." i can't agree or disagree without having played it.

 

[pj]

So Bungie intentionally teased us with screenshots like this one which strongly suggests and earth invasion:

Then they intentionally had an ad campaign that used slogans like "the earth will never be the same" which make people think 'earth invasion'.

And finally they intentionally end the game

Spoiler

right as the earth invasion looks like it's about to start

.

Pretty messed up if you ask me.

Earth was invaded, just on a smaller scale than what was originally shown, and earth WILL never be the same since EARTH CITY was blown up.

 

[Ryck]

Thread Summary

Non Halo 2 fan : Halo2 sucks! Bungie lied and are not genius!!!!

Halo fans: No it dosen't ... Bungie not lie


Very good read nonetheless....top notch trolling beru *thumbs up*

 

[Deku Tree]

The e3 demo would never work in gameplay anyway. The AI driving is terrible in Halo 2. It could never act as good as it looked in that vid. Plus if you try to jack a ghost like MC did in the e3 demo you'd be dead so fast. The elite would just put on the boosters and run right over you.

EDIT: fixed

 

[Littleberu]

Thread Summary

Non Halo 2 fan : Halo2 sucks! Bungie lied and are not genius!!!!

Halo fans: No it dosen't ... Bungie not lie


Very good read nonetheless....top notch trolling beru *thumbs up*

Trolling? I'm arguing for god sake! Is arguing automatically trolling here?

 

[BuddyC]

Minutes:seconds?

That's a great question. The first time I watched it I actually took notes on when they send the interesting tidbits, but I got very lazy and eventually lost the card I wrote it all. It's after the E3 2003 showing when they're talking about redesigning things, he mentions that they had ten levels that would take you from Earth to the edge of the galaxy and back again for an epic finale.

It was most likely during this redesign that the epic finale got cut, so that was over a year before Halo 2 came out, thus they can say it was intentional.

 

[pj]

Oh, that, I didn't know. But I can assure you the rest of the level isn't the same as the E3 Demo. Metropolis IS influenced by the E3 Demo If I remember (it's the bridge level, right?), but then again, it could have been after the E3 Demo.

Of course it's not the same. The e3 demo was 8 minutes, including cutscenes. They left most of the individual elements of the demo intact, while expanding it enough to take an hour or two to play, instead of 5 minutes.

 

[Ryck]

Trolling? I'm arguing for god sake! Is arguing automatically trolling here?

I know you are but com'on man we know how you feel , your not gonna sway anyone and vice versa your just kicking a dead horse , going around in circles etc...what can possibly be your motivation?

 

[pj]

The e3 demo would never work in gameplay anyway. The AI driving is terrible in Halo 2. It could never act as good as it looked in that vid. Plus if you try to jack a banshee like MC did in the e3 demo you'd be dead so fast. The elite would just put on the boosters and run right over you.

I trust your opinion of halo 2, since you are so well informed.

If halo 2's driving ai is terrible, surely it would be easy to jack a GHOST?

 

[Littleberu]

Of course it's not the same. The e3 demo was 8 minutes, including cutscenes. They left most of the individual elements of the demo intact, while expanding it enough to take an hour or two to play, instead of 5 minutes.

No they didn't. They just remade all the E3 demo, which was useless, only because it was only to show it to the media, took 2 months to make, and was all scripted. It was all show and no gameplay. Hey, it's a current thing in the industry, I'm not saying Bungie are the first to do it. It's just that they lost time, and with that time, they could've add more things to Halo 2.

I know you are but com'on man we know how you feel , your not gonna sway anyone and vice versa your just kicking a dead horse , going around in circles etc...what can possibly be your motivation?

My motivation? Being right maybe? Oh no, my motivation is to make everyone is this thread hate Halo 2 at the end of the day! Wtf?

 

[Deku Tree]

Minutes:seconds?

I don't have the minutes and the second but I remember watching that too on the LE DVD. It sounded to me like they had a working version of all the levels in late 2003 including this 'epic finale' ending (which sounds like it was cut) but they said the game "wasn't fun" and so they retooled.

 

[Gattsu25]

No they didn't. They just remade all the E3 demo, which was useless, only because it was only to show it to the media, took 2 months to make, and was all scripted. It was all show and no gameplay. Hey, it's a current thing in the industry, I'm not saying Bungie are the first to do it. It's just that they lost time, and with that time, they could've add more things to Halo 2.

sooo....what exactly is your point, now?

 

[Ryck]

My motivation? Being right maybe? Oh no, my motivation is to make everyone is this thread hate Halo 2 at the end of the day! Wtf?

wtf indeed... go get some fresh air man ....

 

[Littleberu]

sooo....what exactly is your point, now?

That they lied, lost time, and then lied again using the : "It wasn't fun, so we redid all the level HARHARHAR!!!" excuse, and then lied again in one of the biggest video game ad campaign.

 

[Sanjuro]

My input on this is I was completly fine with the game and its ending. If anything the level design didn't live up to Halo 1's really, but that was because there were new things going on and the way the game was set up. Not many things can top the experience of Halo 1's levels and AI and is somthing I will remember always. Halo 2 I will remember the continuation of the story and the incredible multiplayer experience.

 

[Deku Tree]

I trust your opinion of halo 2, since you are so well informed.

If halo 2's driving ai is terrible, surely it would be easy to jack a GHOST?

The AI for the elites driving the ghosts is awesome. On Heroic if you get in front of an elite on a ghost like in the e3 vid they try to ram you which is instant death. I didn't mean to confuse that with multiperson vehicles.

But in my experience the AI driver in a warthog or the other multiperson vehicles when your a gunner wasn't too good. The guy would drive into walls and make no attempt to avoid incomming tank blasts that a human driver could easily swerve away from etc.

 

[pj]

No they didn't. They just remade all the E3 demo, which was useless, only because it was only to show it to the media, took 2 months to make, and was all scripted. It was all show and no gameplay.

Isn't that almost exactly what I said? They took something with some good gameplay ideas, but was too short to be in the game, and expanded it to an acceptable length.

 

[Littleberu]

Isn't that almost exactly what I said? They took something with some good gameplay ideas, but was too short to be in the game, and expanded it to an acceptable length.

Yeah, but you DON'T do that. You do that with simple geometry, simple textures and all. You don't build a whole level, scripted and all, only to test gameplay on it. Now that I know they used the voice samples elsewhere, it's mostly ok "budget-wise"... but they still lost plenty of time over the design of this only level.

 

[Deku Tree]

Spoiler

there isn't much of an earth invasion at the end of the game either. :lol i think it's another small covenant fleet and that forerunner ship that truth and the chief are on. i think one of the problems with setting the game against a full-scale earth invasion, with a nuclear bombardment as depicted in the first teaser, is that it'd be inappropriately depressing. halo's meant to be a stirring action game, and you couldn't really preserve that mood if you were dealing with millions (billions?) of human civilian casualties. if halo 2's victory felt hollow, how hollow would that feel?

Spoiler

There is a huge fleet on the delta halo (the largest anyones ever seen). And IIRC at the end of the game the admiral tells MC that the fleet is "fully engaged". Plus the covenant now know that earth is populated. They brought a small fleet the first time because they thought earth was unpopulated. I see no reason to believe it's "another small covenant fleet".

 

[pj]

The AI for the elites driving the ghosts is awesome. On Heroic if you get in front of an elite on a ghost like in the e3 vid they try to ram you which is instant death. I didn't mean to confuse that with multiperson vehicles.

But in my experience the AI driver in a warthog or the other multiperson vehicles when your a gunner wasn't too good. The guy would drive into walls and make no attempt to avoid incomming tank blasts that a human driver could easily swerve away from etc.

Here's an AI experience I had that I wrote on another forum:

I was playing outskirts on legendary, I had just entered the tunnel and decided to let a marine drive the warthog. We went down the slope, he saw the enemies, sped up and tried to ram them as we went past and out of their range. After that, he turned around and went back towards them to get me in range. He'd never stay in one place while I was firing, and if one of them hid behind something, he'd try to get a better angle on it, and if my shield got low, he'd run away until it recharged. Once all the enemies were dead, he turned around and continued down the tunnel.

I also survived the large vehicle battle in quarantine zone, on legendary, in the gunner seat of a spectre.

Sometimes the AI will get stuck on dynamic objects like crates and exploded vehicles, but that has been fairly rare in my experience.

 

[drohne]

Spoiler

I see no reason to believe it's "another small covenant fleet".

Spoiler

i think those covenant ships are fighting each other above high charity.

 

[Deku Tree]

Spoiler

i think those covenant ships are fighting each other above high charity.

what makes you think that?

 

[arhra]

IIRC, the plan for the E3 demo level was for the basic level geometry and design be for the final game, not necessarily for the final level to play out exactly as the E3 demo (which wouldn't really work anyway, due to the extensive scripting of it (what would happen if you went into the 'ghost chase' end sequence in a warthog, for example? Not to mention the finale would be completely impossible...)). The problem was, the level wasn't really that fun to play in, so they scrapped the overall design, started from scratch, and reused some of the assets (voice work, animations, some building geometry, etc) they'd created for it in what eventually became Outskirts and Metropolis.