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[scar tissue]

c'mon - just legalize it already

Software & intellectual property piracy says hi. Counterfeit goods is big biz.

uh, just copying CDs vs actually developing software is a pretty huge difference
growing drugs illegally is the same as growing drugs legally

 

[XMonkey]

Software & intellectual property piracy says hi. Counterfeit goods is big biz.

There are many legitimate business being undercut by criminal organizations. Legalizing pot may not be a deterrent. For one thing, criminal orgs would still flourish as they attempt to skirt regulation that legit growers would be bound to.

Ridiculous comparison.

 

[Satyamdas]

From my limited personal experience with this, I would say you're right. Some do keep records, but there's a lot of shady dispensaries out there.

I don't even think that dispensaries paying in cash or not keeping records is necessarily a shady practice given the grey area that medicinal marijuana falls under. It might bother some people because it makes the operation appear no different than what happens on the black market, but that is due to the fact that large scale growing is illegal for any person or corporation, therefore the dispensaries need to keep their growers safe in order to insure a flow of product.

 

[XMonkey]

I don't even think that dispensaries paying in cash or not keeping records is necessarily a shady practice given the grey area that medicinal marijuana falls under. It might bother some people because it makes the operation appear no different than what happens on the black market, but that is due to the fact that large scale growing is illegal for any person or corporation, therefore the dispensaries need to keep their growers safe in order to insure a flow of product.

Fair point. From what I know of current CA MMJ laws, there really isn't a provision for large scale growing that can accomodate the huge demand on dispensaries so it does lead to skirting of the law like you said.

 

[monchi-kun]

Ridiculous comparison.

Point is still valid. Just because there is a legitimate way to do business doesn't discourage criminal activity around it. Legalization will not solve the problems that these propert owners face.

 

[Htown]

Just because you like to smoke it doesn't mean the answer to every marijuana related problem is to legalize it.

These people are essentially trying to steal other people's property to grow their crops, and are damaging said property when the owner dares to pull up the crops. And yet the response is not "these are asshats", but "well if they legalized it this wouldn't be a problem."

Nonsense. It doesn't matter if you're growing marijuana or sugar cane. You don't get to screw up somebody else's property to do it. Period.

 

[KJTB]

Just because you like to smoke it doesn't mean the answer to every marijuana related problem is to legalize it.

These people are essentially trying to steal other people's property to grow their crops, and are damaging said property when the owner dares to pull up the crops. And yet the response is not "these are asshats", but "well if they legalized it this wouldn't be a problem."

Nonsense. It doesn't matter if you're growing marijuana or sugar cane. You don't get to screw up somebody else's property to do it. Period.

You're missing the point. If it were legal, it is less likely that there would be illegal pot growers with ties to fucking drug cartels growing weed on private property. Do you see tobacco plants encroaching on peoples private lands and shit? No.

 

[Zeke]

Have some people in this thread been to the area of California in question. Its not like the Bay Area or LA. Mendocino County only has a population of 86k people and there is a lot of open area to grow.

The marijuana grown by these growers doesn't go to a marijuana dispensary, nor does the money. It goes into the drug trade, that's why the growers are so protective and resort to traps like that.

Making marijuana legal isn't going do anything to these people, all they'll do is just move onto something else (like meth, which states like Montana are having a huge problem with).

then fucking let them move on to something else I hate when people post this shit. Lets keep chasing some bogeyman born out of racists ass laws instead of actually doing something about it.

 

[Satyamdas]

Just because you like to smoke it doesn't mean the answer to every marijuana related problem is to legalize it.

These people are essentially trying to steal other people's property to grow their crops, and are damaging said property when the owner dares to pull up the crops. And yet the response is not "these are asshats", but "well if they legalized it this wouldn't be a problem."

Nonsense. It doesn't matter if you're growing marijuana or sugar cane. You don't get to screw up somebody else's property to do it. Period.

I don't think the two ideas are mutually exclusive. I think encroachment and damaging of private property is asshattery that should be punished harshly, but let's not pretend that legalization would not stop a large chunk of it. If these same growers were allowed to grow legally, they would be setting up shop in much better conditions conducive to producing larger and/or more potent yields.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

We'd still be looking at a far lower volume of illicit production and therefore less people growing illegally on other people's property, setting up booby traps, etc...

But it would still exist though. That was my point.

 

[Blackace]

You're saying there is a NEED for lethal booby traps to protect the crops you planted on someone else's land?

It's the gov't's fault these poor growers have to resort to these measures!

What the flying fuck

If pot was legal to buy and legal to grow for small private use like beer and wine are.. then there would be NONE of this.

 

[linkboy]

then fucking let them move on to something else I hate when people post this shit. Lets keep chasing some bogeyman born out of racists ass laws instead of actually doing something about it.

What do you think we should do about it, then.

If you legalize marijuana, these criminals (which is what they are), move onto other drugs. They're going to go where the money is.

Congratulations, you solved the marijuana problem, now you have a meth (or cocaine, or whatever other drug they move onto) problem. Really great solution there.

There's not a simple solution to this problem and its not small time growers. These are professional growers, they have semi-automatic weapons, they have backing the cartels down in Mexico, they get funding from the cartels in Mexico. A lot of the people working these fields are illegals. What the fuck do you think they should do.

This isn't a problem that can be solved by legalizing marijuana.

Before you start spitting out shit, learn about what you're talking about. I grew up in Northern California, I heard about this shit on a daily basis. I've seen it impact people's lives.

I know live in Montana, I hear the same shit I heard back in California, only instead of marijuana, its meth.

I've seen what these drugs can do to people. My brother started off on marijuana, then he moved one to Oxycodone and meth. Honestly, I'm surprised he's still alive and hasn't been arrested.

 

[Zeke]

What do you think we should do about it, then.

If you legalize marijuana, these criminals (which is what they are), move onto other drugs. They're going to go where the money is.

Congratulations, you solved the marijuana problem, now you have a meth (or cocaine, or whatever other drug they move onto) problem. Really great solution there.

There's not a simple solution to this problem and its not small time growers. These are professional growers, they have semi-automatic weapons, they have backing the cartels down in Mexico, they get funding from the cartels in Mexico. A lot of the people working these fields are illegals. What the fuck do you think they should do.

This isn't a problem that can be solved by legalizing marijuana.

Before you start spitting out shit, learn about what you're talking about. I grew up in Northern California, I heard about this shit on a daily basis. I've seen it impact people's lives.

I know live in Montana, I hear the same shit I heard back in California, only instead of marijuana, its meth.

I've seen what these drugs can do to people. My brother started off on marijuana, then he moved one to Oxycodone and meth. Honestly, I'm surprised he's still alive and hasn't been arrested.

pro-tip they are already onto the other drugs. You think they just stop at mj? Who do you think has been manufacturing crack and meth? For one I'd rather stop pissing away money busting and locking up people for using a plant that does LESS damage then booze and cigs. Fuck all the money saved from crap like that can better fund PD's to deal with HARD DRUGS you know the kind people actually die from. Not to mention police will have time to deal with better and bigger things then some guy smoking pot.

 

[charlequin]

There was a bunch of, well had it been legal, people wouldn't have to do this!

And for very good reason: the evidence for legalization is overwhelming and it would instantaneously destroy the illegal criminal business that's engaging in these bad things.

I mean, every discussion about negative social consequences arising from the criminal organizations that grow and distribute marijuana is going to turn into a legalization discussion because it is the singular, objectively correct solution to the problem. During alcohol prohibition, it was certainly correct for law enforcement to pursue and arrest the criminal gangs that profited from bootleg alcohol, but the only actual solution to the problem was to repeal prohibition.

Making marijuana legal isn't going do anything to these people, all they'll do is just move onto something else (like meth, which states like Montana are having a huge problem with).

Meth is significantly easier for law enforcement to target on the supply side, and in addition its production (if it's done in a rural area where you don't have the typical urban-meth-lab proximity problems) is much less likely to impinge on the property rights of others.

Software & intellectual property piracy says hi.

Not an enterprise. Direct criminal theft or infringement can always compete with any price because, well, free is free, but no one (in America) is running big criminal piracy cartels.

Nonsense. It doesn't matter if you're growing marijuana or sugar cane. You don't get to screw up somebody else's property to do it. Period.

I agree! Law enforcement should be arresting these people now, and if America ever comes to its senses and legalizes marijuana, people who do this should still continue to be arrested by law enforcement.

But it would still exist though. That was my point.

Okay, so it's only a route to eliminating 99+% of the illegal trade rather than 100% of it.

 

[operon]

If pot was legal to buy and legal to grow for small private use like beer and wine are.. then there would be NONE of this.

no way. first thing that happens if pot was legal, big taxes on it. Government ain't going to pass up on oportunity like that , recession and all no way. No idea whats it like where you are, but here we have criminals importing cigarettes from China to sell on the street. Perfectly legal here in the UK, but heavily taxed, so poeple will buy them round the corner. Hell here in Norther Ireland we got the paramilitaries selling washed Diesel( agricultural Diesel is much cheaper and so a dye is added, they remove the dye = profit). I don't have much problem with pot never tried don't want to, but friends who use it are fine, probably much safer than Alcohol, but lets not use this bullshit that legallising will stop the gangs etc no way

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Okay, so it's only a route to eliminating 99+% of the illegal trade rather than 100% of it.

I disagree.

 

[Blackace]

no way. first thing that happens if pot was legal, big taxes on it. Government ain't going to pass up on oportunity like that , recession and all no way. No idea whats it like where you are, but here we have criminals importing cigarettes from China to sell on the street. Perfectly legal here in the UK, but heavily taxed, so poeple will buy them round the corner. Hell here in Norther Ireland we got the paramilitaries selling washed Diesel( agricultural Diesel is much cheaper and so a dye is added, they remove the dye = profit). I don't have much problem with pot never tried don't want to, but friends who use it are fine, probably much safer than Alcohol, but lets not use this bullshit that legallising will stop the gangs etc no way

You can't grow cirarettes from a pot in your house. Also you don't see much bootlegging of booze... Even as taxed as it is. Also importing smokes to sell them on the corner is not the same thing as setting up tiger pits..

 

[daw840]

no way. first thing that happens if pot was legal, big taxes on it. Government ain't going to pass up on oportunity like that , recession and all no way. No idea whats it like where you are, but here we have criminals importing cigarettes from China to sell on the street. Perfectly legal here in the UK, but heavily taxed, so poeple will buy them round the corner. Hell here in Norther Ireland we got the paramilitaries selling washed Diesel( agricultural Diesel is much cheaper and so a dye is added, they remove the dye = profit). I don't have much problem with pot never tried don't want to, but friends who use it are fine, probably much safer than Alcohol, but lets not use this bullshit that legallising will stop the gangs etc no way

So fucking what? Are you arguing that the legalization of marijuana would be a large net gain, a small net gain, a small net loss, or a large net loss? I mean, do you think it will make it fucking worse than it already is?

 

[elrechazado]

So fucking what? Are you arguing that the legalization of marijuana would be a large net gain, a small net gain, a small net loss, or a large net loss? I mean, do you think it will make it fucking worse than it already is?

If we stop major harm now, we might have lesser harm in the future, so the status quo is the only answer. Don't you SEE???

 

[operon]

You can't grow cirarettes from a pot in your house. Also you don't see much bootlegging of booze... Even as taxed as it is. Also importing smokes to sell them on the corner is not the same thing as setting up tiger pits..

its still crime, and growing pot in your attic with bunch of lamps is a heck of a lot easier then orgainising a container from China. If the possiblty is there to make money someone will do it, human nature and capitalism for you. There's booteg booze about, problem is you don't know and that small cornershop off license may have bough there vodka of the back of someone van containing any auld shit and sell it to you full price

 

[operon]

So fucking what? Are you arguing that the legalization of marijuana would be a large net gain, a small net gain, a small net loss, or a large net loss? I mean, do you think it will make it fucking worse than it already is?

All I'm saying is the argument that all dealers will suddenly go away over night is silly, there lots of better reasons for legalising it such as the fact we can buy far worse drugs legally with very little restrictions

 

[elrechazado]

All I'm saying is the argument that all dealers will suddenly go away over night is silly,

Nobody says that they would disappear overnight. Straw man is made of straw. What is the case is that things would never have arrived at this point without prohibition, and only the removal of current policies can begin to remedy the current state of affairs.

 

[charlequin]

I disagree.

Okay, what specifically separates the illegal alcohol trade (where legalization did in fact eliminate 99+% of within a short period of time) and the illegal marijuana trade? What, exactly, is going to keep the vast majority of customers from moving to legal weed that's cheaper, safer, and more convenient?

There's booteg booze about

Sure. But if I polled GAF posters, I'd guess that probably fewer than twenty posters have ever attended a party where bootleg booze was served (or bought it for their own consumption) whereas almost every American who's consumed marijuana will have gotten it as the product of a criminal enterprise. That's the point: transform a massive criminal enterprise that's wildly profitable and run by murderous thugs into a cottage criminal business that has a far tinier economic profile.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Okay, what specifically separates the illegal alcohol trade (where legalization did in fact eliminate 99+% of within a short period of time) and the illegal marijuana trade? What, exactly, is going to keep the vast majority of customers from moving to legal weed that's cheaper, safer, and more convenient?

I've never mentioned illegal booze, I've only been talking about cigarette smuggling.

 

[Satyamdas]

Sure. But if I polled GAF posters, I'd guess that probably fewer than twenty posters have ever attended a party where bootleg booze was served (or bought it for their own consumption) whereas almost every American who's consumed marijuana will have gotten it as the product of a criminal enterprise. That's the point: transform a massive criminal enterprise that's wildly profitable and run by murderous thugs into a cottage criminal business that has a far tinier economic profile.

Come on now, this is a bit sensationalist. Are there murders involved in the black market marijuana trade? Yes. Enough to say the entire thing is run by cartels or "murderous thugs"? No, not even close. Just because there are violent elements which grab headlines does not mean we are living in the narcotrafficking fueled nightmare of Mexico.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

People doing this are hardcore criminals, not retardo teenagers. A few years ago there was a lot of places discovered like this on farmers lands; and it turned out that the farmers were 'encouraged' by biker gangs at gunpoint to let them grow stuff on their lands; or else.

I grew up in Mendocino County and I've heard stories like this, although I don't know any of the farmers it happened to. Supposedly, some of the farms have trip-wire grenade traps as well.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

You can't grow cirarettes from a pot in your house. Also you don't see much bootlegging of booze... Even as taxed as it is. Also importing smokes to sell them on the corner is not the same thing as setting up tiger pits..

The thing is that pot smokers are already used to buying weed from guys who "bootleg" it. If after legalization, it is still cheaper to buy it that way then it is to get it from a legitimate distributor, then some people will choose that option. I'm guessing that most pot smokers would prefer buying the more expensive but legal weed if given the option but a market for illegitimate, cheaper weed will still exist.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

The thing is that pot smokers are already used to buying weed from guys who "bootleg" it. If after legalization, it is still cheaper to buy it that way then it is to get it from a legitimate distributor, then some people will choose that option. I'm guessing that most pot smokers would prefer buying the more expensive but legal weed if given the option but a market for illegitimate, cheaper weed will still exist.

Plus the entire "loosies" phenomena for those who don't want "full packs."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/nyregion/05loosie.html
An excerpt

Itinerant cigarette vendors have long been a fixture in some parts of the city, like bodegas that sell individual cigarettes in violation of state law. But with cigarette prices up and the number of smoke-friendly places down, the black market for loosies is now thriving on the streets.

The administration of Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg has outlawed smoking in restaurants, bars and playgrounds, and outside hospital entrances. Even city parks, beaches and pedestrian plazas will soon be off limits to smokers. Then there have been successive rounds of taxes — the most recent one, a $1.60 rise in the state tax in July — that raised the price of a pack of cigarettes to $12.50 at many Midtown newsstands.

“The tax went up, and we started selling 10 times as much,” Mr. Warner said. “Bloomberg thinks he’s stopping people from smoking. He’s just turning them onto loosies.”

Mr. Warner and his partners patrol the east side of Eighth Avenue, from 35th to 36th Street. He started out on Seventh Avenue, but eventually moved a block west, in front of Staples at 35th. “You look for the crowd,” he said.

Mr. Warner said he believed that the official price was above what many people were willing or able to pay. As evidence, he noted that his customers included office workers from as far south as 32nd Street and as far north as 40th Street — people with good-paying jobs, as far as he can discern.

Mr. Warner said he bought his cigarettes — almost always Newports — for a bit over $50 a carton from smugglers who get them in states like Virginia, where the state tax is well under a dollar a pack. He then resells them for 75 cents each, two for $1 or $8 for a pack ($7 for friends).

Mr. Warner said he and each of his two partners took home $120 to $150 a day, profit made from selling about 2,000 cigarettes, mostly two at a time. Each transaction is a misdemeanor offense.

 

[Zeke]

The thing is that pot smokers are already used to buying weed from guys who "bootleg" it. If after legalization, it is still cheaper to buy it that way then it is to get it from a legitimate distributor, then some people will choose that option. I'm guessing that most pot smokers would prefer buying the more expensive but legal weed if given the option but a market for illegitimate, cheaper weed will still exist.

it would be a much much much smaller market. MJ smokers aren't going to settle for buying some crappy schwag some guy grew in his closet. Quality and herb go hand and hand hence that crazy amount of strains and varying strength of strains. The street prices are a direct result of the black market cut them out and the price falls sharply. The thing is we can't under tax or over tax we have to hit a sweet spot so people will continue to buy from legal sellers. We also have to make selling weed not worth the effort for people that would try and sell on the street.

Edit: HA thats exactly why I said you can't over tax shit like that

 

[charlequin]

Come on now, this is a bit sensationalist.

Well, I specifically figure anyone who sets up a punji stick boobytrap to maim the landholder whose land they're illegally growing drugs on is at least a violent thug if not necessarily a murderous one.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

I don't mind weed at all, but these "growers" absolutely DESTROY the land they use. I've watched Nat Geo specials where they raid the sites and it's so filthy. There are hoses, plastic everywhere, chemical barrels tipped over, just a mess. Makes me really sad to see it. And when they're done with the land, they just leave it a dump and move to another spot.

And as others have said, many of them are gang and/or cartel related. No respect for property or the environment at all.

 

[Dude Abides]

Plus the entire "loosies" phenomena for those who don't want "full packs."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/nyregion/05loosie.html
An excerpt

What you're doing here is called making the perfect the enemy of the good.

 

[Satyamdas]

Well, I specifically figure anyone who sets up a punji stick boobytrap to maim the landholder whose land they're illegally growing drugs on is at least a violent thug if not necessarily a murderous one.

This much is understood, but that still does not mean that the entire illicit marijuana trade is "run by murderous thugs". That they exist is not in doubt, I am objecting to the inference that they hold sway over the entire "industry". Now if we were talking about the border towns in Mexico, I would say that is an accurate description.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

What you're doing here is called making the perfect the enemy of the good.

How is that an unrealistic, idealized alternative? It's pointing out how despite being legal that is an illegal black market for cigarettes.