Business
Member
You mean Spanish nationalism.
TV3 is fine. For starters when theres a political debate (as its happening right now) they bring people from the whole political spectrum, which is something hard to find on Spanish TV.
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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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You mean Spanish nationalism.
TV3 is fine. For starters when theres a political debate (as its happening right now) they bring people from the whole political spectrum, which is something hard to find on Spanish TV.
Green Yoshi
Member
No, it isn't. Bavaria isn't humiliated by a central government, but part of the government since 2005. And why should California leave the USA? It is no different to other states. Would Americans accept Puerto Rico to become independant or would they do the same as Spain did?
I want to avoid sidetracking to this, but it'd be wise to just generally assume they have a hand in any current separatist movement. Division helps them out.
TV3 is nothing short of a joke.
Democracy doesn't work like this. You can't just pull numbers out of your ... hat just to compensate the votes you lack.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Proof? "Catalan-only legality" at work.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Im very conflicted for obvious reasons. Im Spanish and I consider people from Catalunya fellow Spaniards, so I want to remain united.
A group of people in Catalunya obviously feel different. If it does happen to be the majority and they want to separate from Spain, well, it doesnt really affect me that much so if it makes them happy, its fine by me.
However, the tricky part is in the middle. Is it really 90 percent of 40 percent? Which source do we trust on the number of injured? (keeping in mind that ONE injured is too many) Does a state get to leave a country just because a bunch of them voted about it? Is the Catalan government just as corrupt as the Spanish? (they could just be latching to a radical feeling for personal gain, not unheard of)
Its also weird seeing people I know take sources from pro Putin and pro Trump outlets just because it aligns with their interests right now. There is some high degree of manipulation going on.
I just dont know how to handle some of this
A group of people in Catalunya obviously feel different. If it does happen to be the majority and they want to separate from Spain, well, it doesnt really affect me that much so if it makes them happy, its fine by me.
However, the tricky part is in the middle. Is it really 90 percent of 40 percent? Which source do we trust on the number of injured? (keeping in mind that ONE injured is too many) Does a state get to leave a country just because a bunch of them voted about it? Is the Catalan government just as corrupt as the Spanish? (they could just be latching to a radical feeling for personal gain, not unheard of)
Its also weird seeing people I know take sources from pro Putin and pro Trump outlets just because it aligns with their interests right now. There is some high degree of manipulation going on.
I just dont know how to handle some of this
Business
Member
90% voted YES. Assuming a similar overwhelming majority of people that couldnt vote or didnt go to vote was NO is pulling numbers out of your.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
90% out of 40% voted yes.
Ah, I see. Then we're on the same page.
Yeah. All Madrid had to do is say "since this vote was not legal, its results have no impact upon Spanish policy, but we continue to work with the Catalan regional government to hear their concerns."
Instead you end up with Chicago '68.
it should be handled the same way as Scotland.
But Spanish government does not want to.
Hopefully this referendum leads to another one with all guarantees in a few months.
Business
Member
Im aware of that and 10% of 40% voted NO.
What are you talking about? I'm talking about turnout. You can't just add "potential turnout" as you like.
AkrosRockBell
Banned
90% out of the total of 40% of the population supposedly voted yes. So that's about 2 million 'yes' out of more than 5 million people who were able to vote.
This just proofs how much of a farce everything is and how Catalonia's regional goverment is nothing but a bunch of people focused mainly on their own benefit.
What happened today in Spain is simply a coup d'etat by a few catalonian people, based on hate and some kind of moral superiority, that don't even represent all of region, let alone the mayority of Spain.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
This was a mistake to avoid invoking 155 which they will need to anyways. Once they failed to locate and intercept the ballot boxes, 155 was inevitable.
Also, they don't really care wether Madrid accepts the results as valid or not. Never did.
ClosingADoor
Member
What a mess. The results mean nothing like this. We can't tell how many people didn't vote because of the police actions. We don't even know if the count is accurate, if there is fraud, etc, etc. Literally the worst possible events today.
Catalonia can not declare independence like this. Even if it was the Spanish government that handled the situation so bad.
Catalonia can not declare independence like this. Even if it was the Spanish government that handled the situation so bad.
Business
Member
Im not adding potential presence, my comment was about automatically converting the majority of people not voting into NO votes. As for presence the state did the outmost so people couldnt vote, 42% will have to be enough then.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Actually, what happened today was that on orders from the Spanish government, police battered its own, peacefully behaving citizens with nightsticks and shot them with rubber bullets. Old people, people in wheel chairs, firemen, people holding their hands up. So theres that.
1. It's decent. At the very least, they will remain more impartial compared to most other national channels about what's going on. If it doesn't convince you, 8tv is fine as well.
2. Not really. It seems more opportunistic than anything.
3. Same as above. I doubt the results will get much international recognition. I think it's pretty sad (and embarrassing) that the central government had to resort to these measures for something that wasn't going to have any legal effect.
Why should the Spanish government allow a referendum? It makes no sense.
Instead they should add the following to the constitution: "No region of Spain can secede from Spain." The end.
For instance in Germany, a referendum about a federal state leaving the Federal Republic of Germany would simply be unconstitutional.
Instead they should add the following to the constitution: "No region of Spain can secede from Spain." The end.
For instance in Germany, a referendum about a federal state leaving the Federal Republic of Germany would simply be unconstitutional.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
That's already in the Spanish constitution, essentially.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
ClosingADoor
Member
Enough for what? You can't think this gives an accurate result that should be followed by a declaration of independence.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
The Spanish governments gave orders to take the ballot boxes and close down the voting places. People willingly got in between the ballots and the cops to force the cops to chose between ignoring orders or following orders by going through the crowds.
It was a seccecionist strategy to use people as human shields. It's a standard procedure to generate outrage here and everywhere else.
Should the Rajoy government chose to stand down to avoid the confrontation? That's the question.
Not if you like democracy. If you think that democracy is optional in achieving your scope then maybe. But that's a slippery slope.
Then I don't get why it was allowed in the first place. It's basically treason, and it makes sense that the police force was used to stop it.
This doesn't make any sense. Ultimately self determination has become seen as a pretty important part of modern nations. Your logic could have just allowed for Empires to simply decide it was illegal for colonies to leave and that would have somehow settled the issue.
Nations are totally arbitrary constructs. If the people in them don't believe in them they begin to rot, and a major part of believing in a country in 2017 is seeing it as being your country. Your exact logic with the Spanish constitution in particular would mean that neither the Netherlands or Belgium could be a country today, not to mention the entirety of Latin America.
Muffin1611
Banned
What should Spain do in your opinion to "not allow this"? Maybe beat up some more citizens?
ClosingADoor
Member
It wasn't allowed. Spain sent in the police to stop it. But they couldn't stop it all simply because of the scope of things.
I voted yes, and agree with you.
However the number of votes, considering the difficulties we had to face today, is big enough to warrant a true referendum unless we want this to last forever or even violence, because Spanish government seems to have no problems with that.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
They tried to physically not allow it to happen, hence all the shit that happened today.
I would have just let them do it and then disavow it, not a perfect solution but, well, it wouldnt have been this.
I can't hold a vote for my house to secede and form my own nation.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
1. The info is reliable, the bias is evident, but they don't fake info. Unlike TVE, the spanish public television.
2. Not really? Not sure how I feel...
3. 1 month ago I would say no, today independence is closer than ever. Not maybe in one month, but today a whole generation saw how their fathers and grandfathers were brutally pounded for just wanting to vote. This will have evelasting repercussions....
Why not? Again this logic means the Netherlands and Belgium should not be countries. I'm Irish, should we be part of Britain again?
Nations are imagined communities, if the imagination isn't there, then neither is the community. The house might be a silly level, but a line can't really be drawn anywhere in particular.
I'm not in favor of independence, but rejecting a fairly done referendum out of hand runs contrary to the most basic principles of modern democracy.
I don't know if I like democracy, but I like millions of people going to a referendum even if the police is stomping random voters.
Muffin1611
Banned
We're having normal citizens being violently suppressed by Spain police because the Spain government let it come to this situation where Catalans saw no other way than holding this referendum that they couldn't possibly hold in a legal way and you're in this thread trolling with dumb arguments. Congrats.
neurosisxeno
Member
"We can't hold a vote for our colonies to secede from the Empire."
No countries ever just amicably split. There is inevitable strife, and it almost always an illegal action.
Good for the millions of people who voted. Disgusting for the Spanish government that it handled the situation in this way.
Still not enough millions to provide legitimacy for the Catalan government to unilaterally declare independence though. Similar with the last elections.
TV3 just had one hell of a heated debate with people from all representations. Go find the same on Spanish media, I'll wait.
Austriacus
Member
Nations are nations because other nations acknowledge them as such (this sounds weird but i dont know how else to write it)
In the modern era trade with other nations is essential to supply your population with its needs, and trade is created by treaties or in rare cases unnoficial agreements.
The only way for Catalunia to function as a nation is for other entities to recognize it in some form, the same way some do to Taiwan and allows it to prosper.
You can call yourself a nation all you want but it wont matter if nobody else works with you with that in mind.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
They are gonna get the results to the parlament to discuss them, as planned. The catalonian goverment is not stupid to discard one of his last cards so easily.
Is a thin veiled threat to force central goverment some kind of move. The catalonian goverment strategy is incredibly poor and haphazard, but is working because on the other side we have an even more stupid leader, and they know that.
Catalonia is no colony.
So I think things can go like this now: Puigdemont tells Rajoy to sit and negotiate bluffing UDI if he doesn't, Rajoy ignores it, Catalonia UDI, Spain a155, martial law, violence.
Catalonia's govt can't back down now that they got their referendum done and Rajoy will just uncompromisingly let things happen.
It would depend of PSOE to somehow find middle ground
Catalonia's govt can't back down now that they got their referendum done and Rajoy will just uncompromisingly let things happen.
It would depend of PSOE to somehow find middle ground
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
It's all about 155.
We feel like it sometimes though
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
PSOE, the "true" left that has been absolutely absent today and has very quietly said Rajoy go away and then went to sleep? Don't count on them for anything.
If only Spain had some sort of unifying figure, one who was prepared since a kid to deal with situations like this, someone who was even recognized by law as a mediator of the Spanish institutions.
if only....
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Good thing this was not a fairly done referendum then.
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