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[Ushay]

Sprexit.

Every guy and his grandma are holding referendums now.

 

[Par Score]

Seriously, they didn't send police to beat voters, they only wanted to confiscate the ballot boxes and close the schools but voters didn't let them and the shit happened.

I'm totally agree that the force was excessive, but reading some of you, it looks like the police were there to beat people because they were voting. That's false.

This is 100% apologist bullshit.

The Guardia went in for the express purpose of voter suppression and intimidation, with a side order of police brutality.

Yes and the referendum besides being illegal and not properly organised didn't have more than 50% participation rate so they are now back to square 1: finding a way to get legitimacy for the independence claim.

Oh come on.

Madrid has just given them all the legitimacy they need in the eyes of the world. Catalan Independence is now an inevitability, one way or another.

 

[KingSnake]

My only opinion about yesterday is that Rajoy must be working alongside the separatist. Such stupidity in handling this issue can't be an honest mistake.

He doesn't seem like the smartest or the most adaptable politician. In this case everything that he did was the dumbest thing possible.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Madrid has just given them all the legitimacy they need in the eyes of the world. Catalan Independence is now an inevitability, one way or another.

I have yet to see a single country speaking out in favor of Catalonian independence though. Most stay on the background and remain vague about it all.

 

[MThanded]

Wrong thread

 

[Westbahnhof]

Madrid has just given them all the legitimacy they need in the eyes of the world. Catalan Independence is now an inevitability, one way or another.

If you think that this weekend turned Catalan Independence into an inevitability, wouldn't it be more precise to just say "one way"?
It seems that if the goal is getting independence any way but over the course of many years of bureaucratic "battle", it would have to be taken unilaterally.

 

[Oriel]

I don't know if you can compare colonies to Catalonia. The situations are totally different, from how the two joined to how the situation is now.

There's no difference if a ruling power refuses to accept the self-determination of a minority people.

I am discussing those peaceful means while you're insisting on making a parallel between Catalonia and colonies and keep talking about independence wars.

Lol, peaceful means?! It was the Spanish state that brought violence down on the peaceful Catalans attempting to secede through entirely democratic methods. How can there be any legitimate vote if Madrid flat out refuses to come to the negotiating table?

Also you keep discussing about last centuries solutions applied into modern world.

What, you mean like the Kosovans going independent in 2008 after a bloody war? Or the Kurds voting peacefully for independence despite the claims of illegality by Baghdad. Notice how there weren't any Iraqi federal police raiding polling statioms in Kirkuk and Erbil. Why was that do you think? Because the Kurds had a well maintained, well armed military force backing their bid for independence. Law only exists through the barrel of a gun. Your insistence of Madrid's writ being invioable is laughable.

 

[ClosingADoor]

There's no difference if a ruling power refuses to accept the self-determination of a minority people.

Colonies were conquered for the purpose of extracting their resources and enslaving the local population to work. This is not comparable to the current situation in Catalonia. You can make plenty of arguments about how Catalonia has suffered under Spain and their right to determine their own future. But comparing it to colonies is just not that useful nor a valid comparison.

What, you mean like the Kosovans going independent in 2008 after a bloody war? Or the Kurds voting peacefully for independence despite the claims of illegality by Baghdad. Notice how there weren't any Iraqi federal police raiding polling statioms in Kirkuk and Erbil. Why was that do you think? Because the Kurds had a well maintained, well armed military force backing their bid for independence. Law only exists through the barrel of a gun. Your insistence of Madrid's writ being invioable is laughable.

So... Catalonia should get its own military and then hold a referendum? I just don't get what you are arguing here. You can't seriously think an actual civil war in modern day Europe is something that we should want.

 

[User123456]

I have yet to see a single country speaking out in favor of Catalonian independence though. Most stay on the background and remain vague about it all.

Because they know Catalonia achieving independence will embolden any regions who want to make independence claims. It's not because it's illegitimate or morally wrong, it's because they don't want to deal with the consequences.

If "legitimacy" means getting the "OK" from major western nations, then a catalan republic will remain illegitimate until many years into its actual formation, assuming it's capable of functioning well enough.

In the eyes of the people within those nations however, it's another story since yesterday.

 

[Oriel]

This is 100% apologist bullshit.

The Guardia went in for the express purpose of voter suppression and intimidation, with a side order of police brutality.



Oh come on.

Madrid has just given them all the legitimacy they need in the eyes of the world. Catalan Independence is now an inevitability, one way or another.

And the irony in all this is that had Madrid "allowed" the vote to take place unhindered it probably would have been voted down and the issue of Catalan independence dead for at least a generation like what happened in Quebec.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Lol, peaceful means?! It was the Spanish state that brought violence down on the peaceful Catalans attempting to secede through entirely democratic methods. How can there be any legitimate vote if Madrid flat out refuses to come to the negotiating table?



What, you mean like the Kosovans going independent in 2008 after a bloody war? Or the Kurds voting peacefully for independence despite the claims of illegality by Baghdad. Notice how there weren't any Iraqi federal police raiding polling statioms in Kirkuk and Erbil. Why was that do you think? Because the Kurds had a well maintained, well armed military force backing their bid for independence. Law only exists through the barrel of a gun. Your insistence of Madrid's writ being invioable is laughable.

So does that mean that you see civil war as the logical conclusion to the current situation?

 

[Nekster]

I'm totally agree that the force was excessive, but reading some of you, it looks like the police were there to beat people because they were voting. That's false.

No, that's not false. Any security forces has a code. That code, that is the same for Guardia Civil, Policia Nacional or Mossos, says that you must always guarantee the people safety. That is the first rule. You CAN NOT put in risk and not saying to attack peaceful people to stop a crime. Even if you consider it was a ilegality to vote, they NEVER can hurt peaceful people. And that's exactly what they did, using violence against people who only wanted to vote, folowing spanish gov orders.

 

[KingSnake]

Lol, peaceful means?! It was the Spanish state that brought violence down on the peaceful Catalans attempting to secede through entirely democratic methods. How can there be any legitimate vote if Madrid flat out refuses to come to the negotiating table?

I wrote already what possible peaceful means could be. Not going to repeat them since you ignore everything anyhow.

What, you mean like the Kosovans going independent in 2008 after a bloody war? Or the Kurds voting peacefully for independence despite the claims of illegality by Baghdad. Notice how there weren't any Iraqi federal police raiding polling statioms in Kirkuk and Erbil. Why was that do you think? Because the Kurds had a well maintained, well armed military force backing their bid for independence. Law only exists through the barrel of a gun. Your insistence of Madrid's writ being invioable is laughable.

So you are still actively promoting the idea that the war is the way to go.

 

[Metal B]

Lol, peaceful means?! It was the Spanish state that brought violence down on the peaceful Catalans attempting to secede through entirely democratic methods. How can there be any legitimate vote if Madrid flat out refuses to come to the negotiating table?.

"Democratic methods"? They wanted to make an illegal elections, which wasn't allowed by the state or the law. So all those people broke the law, which meant that the police needed to interfere. Still, this was pretty much a Lose-Lose situation for the Spain government.

No, that's not false. Any security forces has a code. That code, that is the same for Guardia Civil, Policia Nacional or Mossos, says that you must always guarantee the people safety. That is the first rule. You CAN NOT put in risk and not saying to attack peaceful people to stop a crime. Even if you consider it was a ilegality to vote, they NEVER can hurt peaceful people. And that's exactly what they did, using violence against people who only wanted to vote, folowing spanish gov orders.

So you can't attack "peaceful people", if those break the law?

 

[Oriel]

Colonies were conquered for the purpose of extracting their resources and enslaving the local population to work. This is not comparable to the current situation in Catalonia. You can make plenty of arguments about how Catalonia has suffered under Spain and their right to determine their own future. But comparing it to colonies is just not that useful nor a valid comparison.

I'm making the point that there's plenty of examples of ruling powers declaring secession movements illegal and using violencr to supress them. Chechyna declared independence in 1991 through a peaceful democratic process and the response by the Russian state was to flatten the capital Grozny. Chechyna is an integral part of the Russian Federation so you can't claim "but that was a colony".

So... Catalonia should get its own military and then hold a referendum? I just don't get what you are arguing here. You can't seriously think an actual civil war in modern day Europe is something that we should want.

Did I say that? Stop inventing strawmen, it's becoming tiresome.

 

[Walshicus]

So you are still actively promoting the idea that the war is the way to go.

When discussion fails violence is the solution. The imperative of all civilised parties is to ensure that diplomacy is always an option. The Spanish regime has abrogated it's right to peace with it's actions.

 

[BBboy20]

That's false.

If American cops alone taught me anything...

 

[ClosingADoor]

I'm making the point that there's plenty of examples of ruling powers declaring secession movements illegal and using violencr to supress them. Chechyna declared independence in 1991 through a peaceful democratic process and the response by the Russian state was to flatten the capital Grozny. Chechyna is an integral part of the Russian Federation so you can't claim "but that was a colony".



Did I say that? Stop inventing strawmen, it's becoming tiresome.

You are the one bringing up colonies, how violence resulted in the independence of these other nations and how it would be better had Catalonia had a military. Not me. And I am not the only one reading this into your posts.

So, then we both agree that violence is not the answer here, and Catalonia should not aim to do that.

 

[KingSnake]

When discussion fails violence is the solution. The imperative of all civilised parties is to ensure that diplomacy is always an option. The Spanish regime has abrogated it's right to peace with it's actions.

You're also not from Catalonia, right?

 

[Oriel]

So does that mean that you see civil war as the logical conclusion to the current situation?

No.

I wrote already what possible peaceful means could be. Not going to repeat them since you ignore everything anyhow.



So you are still actively promoting the idea that the war is the way to go.

Again, no. Merely pointing out that the "law" only extends as far as a state's ability and means to enforce said law through force and violence. Overwhelm that force and any state capitulates. This isn't difficult to understand.

"Democratic methods"? They wanted to make an illegal elections, which wasn't allowed by the state or the law. So all those people broke the law, which meant that the police needed to interfere. Still, this was pretty much a Lose-Lose situation for the Spain government.

Hold on, so if a minority region wanting independence is consistently refused that aspiration they just have to lump it and move on? If my ancestors took that attitude I'd have a British passport today, as would 1/4 of the planet as well.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

When discussion fails violence is the solution. The imperative of all civilised parties is to ensure that diplomacy is always an option. The Spanish regime has abrogated it's right to peace with it's actions.

Jesus Christ dude, two weeks ago you didn't even know this problem existed.
The "Spanish regime" is not an inmovible dictatorship, it's a parliamentary democracy and its current leaders can and probably will lose power pretty soon. This is not Kosovo, please stop the spurious comparisons and the concern trolling.
The whole self-determination process/idea is less than 8 years old, and only 5 as a mainstream thing propagated by the regional government. 10 years ago, the Estatut of 2006 was in full place and there were no problems whatsoever. Secesionist movements and the negotiations surrounding them take time.

 

[User123456]

So you can't attack "peaceful people", if those break the law?

Watch the videos of the peaceful voters who only wanted to go cast a vote getting beaten the hell up by the police and then tell me this is the hill you want to die on.

The answer is that you can't attack peaceful people who are breaking the law when they are only doing so because the state they're living in refuses to negotiate with them a better solution to express their political opinion.

 

[KingSnake]

Again, no. Merely pointing out that the "law" only extends as far as a state's ability and means to enforce said law through force and violence. Overwhelm that force and any state capitulates. This isn't difficult to understand.

What exactly does "overwhelm that force" mean?

 

[Westbahnhof]

No.

Good. Because I didn't ask to provoke or anything, it genuinely seemed that way from the way you were talking. But okay, good to hear.

When discussion fails violence is the solution. The imperative of all civilised parties is to ensure that diplomacy is always an option. The Spanish regime has abrogated it's right to peace with it's actions.

This on the other hand...

 

[ClosingADoor]

Jesus Christ dude, two weeks ago you didn't even know this problem existed.
The "Spanish regime" is not an inmovible dictatorship, it's a parliamentary democracy and its current leaders can and probably will lose power pretty soon. This is not Kosovo, please stop the spurious comparisons and the concern trolling.
The whole self-determination process/idea is less than 8 years old, and only 5 as a mainstream thing propagated by the regional government. 10 years ago, the Estatut of 2006 was in full place and there were no problems whatsoever. Secesionist movements and the negotiations surrounding them take time.

This is why - as an outsider - I don't see independence as a good thing for Catalonia. Yes, the sentiment has been there for ages, but it really took off over the past decade or so. A period of financial crisis and then the Euro crisis, leading to Spain being very hard. People then look for both someone to blame (central government) and a way out (independence). It is basically a populist movement then.

If all parties are serious about this, they should have at least 2 votes over a period of time with 60%+ saying 'yes' to independence. Otherwise you are making enormous changes you can't take back based on politics that can change in a few years.

 

[Oriel]

You are the one bringing up colonies, how violence resulted in the independence of these other nations and how it would be better had Catalonia had a military. Not me. And I am not the only one reading this into your posts.

So, then we both agree that violence is not the answer here, and Catalonia should not aim to do that.

I never mentioned the word colonies, you did. Quote where I saod it "would be better had Catalonia had a military". YOU'RE saying that. The Spanish Netherlands were considered an integral part of the Spanish Crown (not a colony but an imperial territory like Aragon and Castille), by your own argument the Dutch had no right to independence.

If you cannot be bothered debating honestly there's not much point continuing here.

 

[Domaje]

Many videos are 2 minutes long and you can't see who started and why it's happening.

Again, the force was out of proportion, nobody argues that.

What?

 

[Oriel]

Jesus Christ dude, two weeks ago you didn't even know this problem existed.
The "Spanish regime" is not an inmovible dictatorship, it's a parliamentary democracy and its current leaders can and probably will lose power pretty soon. This is not Kosovo, please stop the spurious comparisons and the concern trolling.
The whole self-determination process/idea is less than 8 years old, and only 5 as a mainstream thing propagated by the regional government. 10 years ago, the Estatut of 2006 was in full place and there were no problems whatsoever. Secesionist movements and the negotiations surrounding them take time.

Catalonian independence movement is only "8-years old"? Whaaaa?!

 

[ClosingADoor]

I never mentioned the word colonies, you did.

"Are Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina all "illegitimate"?"

Quote where I saod it "would be better had Catalonia had a military". YOU'RE saying that.

"Because the Kurds had a well maintained, well armed military force backing their bid for independence."

The Spanish Netherlands were considered an integral part of the Spanish Crown (not a colony but an imperial territory like Aragon and Castille), by your own argument the Dutch had no right to independence.

Hence my argument you can't compare historical events like that to the current day situation. The joining of Aragon to Castille would probably also not really be valid in the modern day for example, or taking over countries across the world as colonies. They happened, but that does not mean we can just say those actions would be good today.

If you cannot be bothered debating honestly there's not much point continuing here.

If I am misunderstanding your points, that is fine and please say so. But the constant accusations of not debating honestly are a bit tiring.

Catalonian independence movement is only "8-years old"? Whaaaa?!

A few years back, not nearly as much people wanted an independent state. So yes, the renewed demand for that is pretty recent. With differences like that over the years, a one off referendum about the issue shouldn't even be on the table.

 

[d9b]

Disgraceful.

 

[Oriel]

"Are Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina all "illegitimate"?"

And again I never said "colonies".

"Because the Kurds had a well maintained, well armed military force backing their bid for independence."

Again did I say "it would be better Catalonia had a military"? In your own time....

Hence my argument you can't compare historical events like that to the current day situation. The joining of Aragon to Castille would probably also not really be valid in the modern day for example, or taking over countries across the world as colonies. They happened, but that does not mean we can just say those actions would be good today.


If I am misunderstanding your points, that is fine and please say so. But the constant accusations of not debating honestly are a bit tiring.

Yes you are misunderstanding my points, deliberately inventing strawmen. I've already explaind myself here, and it honestly feels like we're going around in circles. Self-determination is self-determination. It's jo different if it's a far-flung overseas territory like the New Hebrides or an integral part of a nation like Scotland, Catalonia or Bavaria. Everyone has the right to decide their own future.

 

[Oriel]

.


A few years back, not nearly as much people wanted an independent state. So yes, the renewed demand for that is pretty recent. With differences like that over the years, a one off referendum about the issue shouldn't even be on the table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

Catalonian independence movement is only "8-years old"? Whaaaa?!

The modern secesionist movement was born after the overruling of parts of the Estatut and the austerity measures of PP. All the political focus before that was on getting the Estatut of 2006 done. Yes there has been a consistent nationalist movement since the 19th Century (That began strictly bourguais and become popular by the 1920s) but ever since the Democratic Transition it was focused on achieving Autonomy in the spirit of the Estatut of 1934, and we were very close to achieving that but PP was a huge setback.
I just hope we can still go back to that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession

How does a war between absolutist monarchs with no democratic legitimacy represent the historical will of a people?

 

[ClosingADoor]

And again I never said "colonies".



Again did I say "it would be better Catalonia had a military"? In your own time....



Yes you are misunderstanding my points, deliberately inventing strawmen. I've already explaind myself here, and it honestly feels like we're going around in circles. Self-determination is self-determination. It's jo different if it's a far-flung overseas territory like the New Hebrides or an integral part of a nation like Scotland, Catalonia or Bavaria. Everyone has the right to decide their own future.

You are bringing up past colonies of Spain. Sure, you never said the word "colonies", but you are using them in your argument. Same with pointing to the military forces of the Kurds. I am not inventing anything here, but it is probably not that useful to continue talking about that then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession

If we go even further back in time, we can give the territory to the Romans. I don't see much use in using historical events like this as a way to convince people independence now is the answer to the problems Catalonia has with Spain.

 

[Business]

I'm still amazed at the restrain people showed in front of the police brutality we saw yesterday.

It takes a very special kind of psychopath to hit and handle elders, women and children the way we saw yesterday. People that wasn't defending at all. We saw a woman getting her fingers broken on purpose, we saw the police launching someone over a person receiving CPR on the floor. What kind of a sick motherfucker does that?

These sorry excuses for human beings left from their bases in Spain sorrounded by people chanting 'A por ellos!' (Let's get them!), and sure they did, but there's also a whole generation over here in Catalonia that will never forget the violence and the humilliation received yesterday.

I'm also shocked at the reaction of the Spanish public to this. I'm reading the comment sections on Spanish newspapers and I'm appalled at the mental gymnastics, the victim blaming an the general lack of the most basic decency. Wake up.

 

[Coxy100]

Many videos are 2 minutes long and you can't see who started and why it's happening.

Again, the force was out of proportion, nobody argues that.

You don't need to see the beginning of these 2 videos to know that the spanish police were way out of line. This wasn't just excessive mate - this was downright outrageous:

https://i.imgur.com/NiJhNca.gifv

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/861001/Catalan-referendum-Spanish-police-violence-voters

 

[deathkiller]

You don't need to see the beginning of these 2 videos to know that the spanish police were way out of line. This wasn't just excessive mate - this was downright outrageous:

https://i.imgur.com/NiJhNca.gifv

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/861001/Catalan-referendum-Spanish-police-violence-voters

So, is this the first time you have seen police in action? This is the Catalonian police https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R91g7C2295U as you can see they are not that different from the police from the rest of Spain.

 

[Nekster]

So you can't attack "peaceful people", if those break the law?

To vote it was not ilegal.

 

[Ethelwulf]

Sprexit.

Every guy and his grandma are holding referendums now.

Nothing like Brexit. Get informed before commenting please.

 

[cebri.one]

Disgraceful.

Top right pic is fake.

 

[God Dayumm]

Nothing like Brexit. Get informed before commenting please.

One of these days someone is going to call the Palestinian settlements "Palexit"

This thread already has the same undertones that Israel, Russia and China use to undermine the autonomy of disadvantaged regions they control and oppress. Calling their democratic referendums illegal and worthy of violent police intervention is by-the-book authoritarianism.

 

[WinterIsComing]

The day Catalonia gets it's independence is the end of Spain.
First Catalonia, then Galicia, Andalucia, Castilla, Aragon...

 

[d9b]

Top right pic is fake.

No, it's not.

You can see that woman in the begining of this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9UGpBZz7WU

 

[ShaoranWright]

Top right pic is fake.

fucking liar.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Top right pic is fake.

If the other 3 are legit it doesn’t really fucking matter if the 4th one is fake.

The day Catalonia gets it's independence is the end of Spain.
First Catalonia, then Galicia, Andalucia, Castilla, Aragon...

Atleast Catalonia have Barcelona. What is Galicia going to do for industry to feed an economy?

 

[d9b]

If the other 3 are legit it doesn't really fucking matter if the 4th one is fake.

It's not fake, check my youtube link above.
(And to be honest, I don't understand why elite09 would just shitpost like that.)

 

[DukeLongfellow]

Top right pic is fake.

Oh? I'm interested. Where/what is it from then?

 

[Skellig Gra]

It's not fake.

Didn’t think it was. Point being if they’ll brutalize 3 elderly people then a 4th one being real or not is irrelevant because it’s been done multiple times already.

 

[Business]

Top right pic is fake.

This is what I'm talking about when I say I'm disappointed at Spain's general public. For fuck's sake man what are you talking about.

 

[curi0usBystander]

I'm also shocked at the reaction of the Spanish public to this. I'm reading the comment sections on Spanish newspapers and I'm appalled at the mental gymnastics, the victim blaming an the general lack of the most basic decency. Wake up.

You really shouldn't do that if you're looking for sensible discussion.