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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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Most of the catalan people would be more than happy to have a federal state or a spanish republic recognizing the catalan nation with some fiscal advantages and such. Only the most fervent independentists go for the nationalistic romantic angle, this "revolution" is actually very pragmatic in its demands in general (we can argue if those demands are reasonable or not, that's another thing).
To give some context, only 40 years there was a dictatorship. A dictatorship where catalan indentity was completely forbidden and where minorities where prosecuted and executed. When "democracy" came, it came in the shape of a Bourbon king (I have to say I really hate this dinasty) and a transition which was... tame, as all the powerful spanish (and catalan!) families were exactly the same before and after: Telefonica, Repsol, Endesa, various construction companies... the oligarchy was essentially the same as with the dictator so in all reality the "powers" of the State were the same. Add to the mix that all the fascists just changed the name of the political party and continued on with their lifes without being prosecuted. Yes, ALL of the government people with Franco were safe in the new Monarchy, it sounds nuts but it's what happened.
So we have a very young democracy with fascist roots that never went away (PP is full to the brim with fascits families that never asked for forgiveness or atoned for their crimes) and currently we are ruled by people that just don't get what Spain is. Catalan people want essentially change, escape from the spanish oligarchy and seeing the last elections and the political climate change is impossible in the short-medium. Now, Independence is not a magical solution to everything and it's very possible that we go from one oligarchy to a worse one.
There is not an easy solution to this mess. All sides fucked up.
To give some context, only 40 years there was a dictatorship. A dictatorship where catalan indentity was completely forbidden and where minorities where prosecuted and executed. When "democracy" came, it came in the shape of a Bourbon king (I have to say I really hate this dinasty) and a transition which was... tame, as all the powerful spanish (and catalan!) families were exactly the same before and after: Telefonica, Repsol, Endesa, various construction companies... the oligarchy was essentially the same as with the dictator so in all reality the "powers" of the State were the same. Add to the mix that all the fascists just changed the name of the political party and continued on with their lifes without being prosecuted. Yes, ALL of the government people with Franco were safe in the new Monarchy, it sounds nuts but it's what happened.
So we have a very young democracy with fascist roots that never went away (PP is full to the brim with fascits families that never asked for forgiveness or atoned for their crimes) and currently we are ruled by people that just don't get what Spain is. Catalan people want essentially change, escape from the spanish oligarchy and seeing the last elections and the political climate change is impossible in the short-medium. Now, Independence is not a magical solution to everything and it's very possible that we go from one oligarchy to a worse one.
There is not an easy solution to this mess. All sides fucked up.
That's nonsense. The referendum wasn't legitimate. Anyone not in favor of leaving had no reason to go and vote. By not voting most people showed that they did not agree.
deathkiller
Member
Puigdemont has said that they will do an Independence Declaration, I wonder if they will manage to get some countries to recognize it.
While I consider the violence a reason enough to make the declaration I don't see it as shocking, it happens every time the police tries to do something and people form (non-violent) groups to stop them. Most countries are governed by old people that see this kind of police actions normal so the police violence won't move them to act.
While I consider the violence a reason enough to make the declaration I don't see it as shocking, it happens every time the police tries to do something and people form (non-violent) groups to stop them. Most countries are governed by old people that see this kind of police actions normal so the police violence won't move them to act.
The referendum wasn't legitimate. Anyone in favor of leaving had no reason to go and vote. By not voting most people showed that they did agree.
If it was a peaceful vote, yeah, not showing up would mean they don't agree, but with the police attacking people unprovoked, that's not as simple as that, who knows how many may have not showed up due to fear.
Can't put violence aside though.
The hundred of thousands of bailouts that were lost due to police activities could have easily made this a majority.
Not to mention that going to vote was a seemingly dangerous endeavor and many stayed home for their own safety.
You can't possibly conclude that by not voting people showed that they did not agree to be independent, you could, however, conclude that they couldn't vote safely and that they were not able to vote.
What's different is that this shows what a chickenshit Rajoy is and how piss poor the handling of this on the part of the Spanish government was.
The catalonian government is being undemocratic too now, they cannot ignore the people that didnt vote (specially that much and in a situation where not to vote was promoted against the nationalism). Its not even the 40% of the poblation (and again, we know that some people voted more than once). So, the spanish government had a very dictatorial behaviour, but the catalonian one is not gonna be different according to the Puigdemont's speech.
That makes no sense. Anyone not believing in the legality of the referendum had reason not to vote, because voting meant that you considered it to be legitimate and lend credence to it.
By not participating, most people voted against the referendum itself.
Really? With the cops beating the shit outta ppl trying to vote does it really makes no sense to u?
His Majesty
Banned
Or most people were too scared of getting beaten to a pulp to vote.
This is a massive turnout considering the enormous amount of ballots that were taken by the police and the repression tactics used.
With Spain declaring the vote illegitimate, and cops sent by the Spanish government to crack down on the referendum, the ONLY people who had a strong reason to go out and vote would be those who wanted to protest these actions strongly and show their support for secession.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Nope. If you extrapolate the turnout against the census of the closed voting places, we're talking a turnout around 45%.
And they knew it beforehand that's why Puigdemont was very adamant against establishing a minimum turnout.
Acidote
Member
The mishandling by the corrupt fucks of the central government. The corrupt fucks of the Catalonian government has handled the situation way smarter.
Pretty much this. That is the difference.
As you said, there's no easy solution. Specially now and it's not a problem only regarding Catalonia, it's a problem for the whole of Spain because if somehow a political solution is found through fiscal advantages or something like that, the central government would instantly have a problem with the rest of the country asking (and in my opinion rightfully so) for those same fiscal advantages.
It's a travesty what we already have with the Basque Country and Navarra regarding fiscalization and it generates a lot of political debate at least in the Andalusian parliament (You can hear things like "if everyone had that the state would be unsustainable" or "we cannot industrialize several areas because we cannot offer companies the same terms that the Basque Country or Madrid do").
Not easy, not easy at all.
nelsonroyale
Member
Rajoy is such a disgusting individual. And he doesn't really have a legitimate mandate. Regardless of what many Spaniards think about the Catalan situation (and I have many Spanish friends, in and out of Catalan), this should really bring a renewed and massed opposition to Rajoy and his cronies.
His Majesty
Banned
I'd also like to mention I am ashamed and disgusted of the reactions of the European Union and its member states yesterday. A complete lack of integrity from Macron, Merkel, Juncker and all other leaders who have stayed eerily quiet. We're always quick to condemn non-EU members for violent behaviour but when our own member states are dismissing human rights? That's just an internal Spanish affair apparently.
What about the elderly whom feel it's not safe or people who want to vote yet feel it's too dangerous to risk it? People who went out to vote are the ones that feel strongly for that subject matter however to state people whom did not manage to out to vote are the ones who did not want to split from Spain is not true.
Nope. This stance is an abusive attitude. Silence is not consent. That's not how referendums work.
The only abusive attitude has been the beatings of innocent people.
I'm not sure how the Spanish state is organised but wouldn't federalising the country be an option? Like Germany or the US.
That way it's the same rules for every region.
(disregard if that's already how it is in Spain)
"both sides!!!1!!1!"
I think we can state with high certainty that the people who did go out and vote were the ones who wanted secession. This makes the 90% result out of the 40-45% turn out very unsurprising. But no one can really say with any sort of certainty what a larger turn out would have voted for. By declaring the referendum illegitimate and then cracking down on voters, the Spanish government did succeed in making the voting process effectively pointless. It's an incredibly bad look though.
Yes, both sides of politicians are shitty and people are the ones to suffer.
Acidote
Member
That's something that has been in discussion before (Specially in some internal circles of the PSOE, the main opposition party and within Podemos), even though it's not really THAT different from what we have now.
HarryHengst
Member
You dont have riot police showing up, confiscating ballot boxes and bashing in the skulls of voters though.
Westbahnhof
Banned
Yes.
If you agree the referendum is not valid, there is 0 incentive to go out and vote, considering the threat of violence.
The only reason to still go, in this case, is a strong conviction that the "yes" result has to win and be acknowledged.
Thus, not voting is no agreement in this case.
The referendum might not have been valid, but that doesn't mean people don't want to vote.
If no one goes out to vote, it will be considered as a failure, while if people go out, at least everyone will see they care and it will pressure those against the referendum.
You are right but there were 2 million plus votes counted with 700 thousand invalid. This despite the police.
Given that there are 7 million or something people there its a significant result still.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
By nature I am a unionist - I'm skeptical of the ability of smaller states to do as well individually as they might do in union - but I recognise, as should we all, the right of peoples to self-determine. If the Spanish state will not allow for a legitimate (in the legal sense) referendum to be held, then this was the best possible consultation of the people the Catalan region could have reasonably organised, and is therefore a legitimate (in the moral sense) referendum until a more satisfactory alternative is available. If I were the Catalan executive now, I would deliver an ultimatum to the Spanish state demanding a free and fair referendum, with refusal resulting in a unilateral declaration of independence. If the Spanish state wishes this to be illegitimate, they must provide a better alternative. That is the state of affairs we are now in.
Westbahnhof
Banned
True, but as I pointed out, there was the threat of violence.
Also, someone wanting the referendum to be legitimate is much more likely to bother than someone going "eh, it's invalid, why even go?"
The "no vote means agreement with the outcome" thing only works if it's a vote which outcome will be respected, and if voting poses no danger.
The numbers now are not solid enough to make any claim.
Edit: As an oversimplyfying example:
I'm against a general porn ban.
Should my local government hold an unauthorized election to decide whether to ban it, I wouldn't bother going to vote, especially if I know the police might beat me
But it's not.
People voting no had a much tinier incentive to vote. It's not like both sides viewed this illegal referendum equally.
Duebrithil
Member
Probably. I think it's more accurate to say that the people who did go out and vote were the ones who were in favour of having a legitimate referendum. Anecdotal evidence: https://twitter.com/xavicantons/status/914433580897570816/video/1
Yeah, I also consider myself a unionist. The balkanization of Spain is something I really don't want to see.
But at the same time I think about the people in Catalonia that don't think of themselves as Spanish, and I do't know what to do.
It's a very complicated question.
PjotrStroganov
Member
Agreed. And did the No side even get an equal chance to campaign? I imagine the answer is no.
Internal matters you resolve internally. Also happens in the USA, well until Trump, but I doubt we want Merkel on twitter going "RAJOY!? Total Scumbag, Franco loving fascist! Should be fired! #MDWG (Mache Deutschland Wieder Grossartig)."
All in all this has cost Spain A LOT of points on the European stage, and it'snot over yet. If Rajoy cracks down even harder when the Catalan nationalists declare independence? Yeah....
gutter_trash
Banned
Spain should become a Federation IMO
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
Read away, in many aspects we have a highly federalized system save for the tax regime, but there's also the aspect of whether people want that federalization or not.
Some Autonomous Communities have always wanted a high level of independence/devolution, whereas others don't really care.
In the case of the current Catalan independence movement, the movement didn't really surge until the Constitutional Court overruled several articles of a long negotiated, new Catalan Constitution that was approved by referendum. The party that presented the complaint to the Court was, of course, PP. The whole recourse revolved around the new Estatut giving preference to Catalan in the public sphere and its calling Cataluña a nation.
The other problem we may have is that the Communities collect their own taxes and run many of the public services, but those taxes first go to the Central Government, which then provides financing for each Autonomy. This may put the Autonomies under the power of the Central Government in the sense that it may underfund them, and Cataluña has complained about this repeteadly. On the other hand it provides development help to the poorer communities.
ClosingADoor
Member
We don't even know if all the votes are valid. Or how many of these are protest votes because Madrid didn't recognize the referendum. Or yes, if those others would have been against.
Honestly, with country changing events like this, they should count everyone not showing as a 'no' vote anyway. And then do a vote again over time to see if sentiment changes. A one off referendum is just irresponsible.
It's a stupid situation, the Spanish government is acting in a very stupid manner, acting like bullies and the Catalan government is trying to use this to act in their own little authoritarian way by declaring a vote that clearly doesn't give them any legitimacy as exactly the opposite even before announcing the results.
I agree with Crab here, a proper referendum must happen at some point. And now the only decent outcome would be either to negotiate how to make that happen, instead of this dick contest, or to find away to get the legitimacy, for example by having regional elections that will have as the main topic a new referendum.
Bonus: Rajoy should really be kicked out of the government.
It's pretty sad to say this, but both sides in Spain should really learn from UK and SNP's handling of the Scottish situation.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Wont happen because if Catalonias got validated it would give grounds to the Basque Country to also pursue theirs. It would be the end of Spain.
Not saying the people shouldnt push for one, but its certainly not gonna come from the Madrid authorities.
That would've been the logical solution. The current spanish gvt hasn't taken a local solution like, never. They are moved by fear and hate.
Btw where is the Bourbon King? Why hasn't he addressed his supposed people? So fucking useless.
curi0usBystander
Member
Sad as it is i don't see this happening with Rajoy in the Goverment.
That is kind of what the last 2 regional elections were about and yet here we are.
While some source claims that if he doesn't get support (from other parties) for what they call the Catalan crisis he'll call elections. I honestly don't see him going away.
Yeah they could. That's the fucked up part of all this mess.
At least in the last regional election as far as I know the pro-independence parties didn't get the majority, no?
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