I have 300h+ in Endless Space MP, plus another 200 SP and another 100+ modding.. shrug.
They need to clean up the mess behind Disharmony though..
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Civilization V Brave New World |OT| More than Content Tourism
- Thread starter Fragamemnon
- Start date
They need to clean up the mess behind Disharmony though..
Would you suggest playing with Disharmoy turned off? (and if yes, why? What mess?)
I keep having an issue with defensive pacts.
Sometimes during games there's a weak Civ I want to protect, usually because I liberated their capital or resurrected them, since they will always vote with me at the UN. The AI doesn't seam to understand the defensive pact in two ways:
1. They do not respect my military might when declaring war on my weaker ally. If my ally is weak, they'll start a war oblivious to the fact that it also means war with me. More illogical is that the same Civ would not declare war on me alone because they respect my might. It makes no sense.
2. Let's say I have a declaration of friendship with both Spain and Portugal, and a defensive pact with the Spaniards. Then Portugal declares war on Spain, making me automatically declare war on Portugal. The Portuguese see this as both a backstab on MY part and I'm forever labeled as someone who "made a declaration of friendship with, then declared war!"
The AI needs to account for these simple allegiance mechanics. I hope a patch or mod addresses the issue.
Sometimes during games there's a weak Civ I want to protect, usually because I liberated their capital or resurrected them, since they will always vote with me at the UN. The AI doesn't seam to understand the defensive pact in two ways:
1. They do not respect my military might when declaring war on my weaker ally. If my ally is weak, they'll start a war oblivious to the fact that it also means war with me. More illogical is that the same Civ would not declare war on me alone because they respect my might. It makes no sense.
2. Let's say I have a declaration of friendship with both Spain and Portugal, and a defensive pact with the Spaniards. Then Portugal declares war on Spain, making me automatically declare war on Portugal. The Portuguese see this as both a backstab on MY part and I'm forever labeled as someone who "made a declaration of friendship with, then declared war!"
The AI needs to account for these simple allegiance mechanics. I hope a patch or mod addresses the issue.
On the topic of AI: I hate how easily you can become a Warmonger. Elizabeth was being a bitch to Ragusa and I stepped in to save them. She gave me one of her cities after I whooped her military, but somehow I'm the bad guy for protecting the sovereignty of a smaller government. I wouldn't have declared war otherwise. It was my first war to boot!
What difficulty you playing on?
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
You only have a taste for blood, you monster.
The AI has an easier time of letting go of grudges now, thankfully.
Yeah I took Rome from Caesar and he is annoyed I control his capital but says he holds no grudge about the war. It might be because he started it though.
Only for MP.
It's now a bit too easy to come in clashing and raze down a system before help arrives, and MP "I know you know i know" approach to ship\fleet design is VERY complicated.
Civ5 should really include an option to declare war penalty-free if a civilization declares war on a CS you've pledged or protect.
I don't start shit, but I end things breh.
Architechnophile
Member
Oh, look, the bloodthirsty breh shows his face.
A Casus Belli system is something a lot of fans have wanted out of Civ V... it'd probably be a lot of work to get it running smoothly with the AI, but the ability to justify to your wars would add such a huge layer to the game.
The Zulu are a warmonger so we invaded them, peaceful guys would be okay with that buy other warmongers wouldn't buy it. Gotta wipe out those Hindu heathens - your fellow Muslims wouldn't mind but other minority religions would still have a gripe. World Congress is a great addition to diplomacy but there's so much more you can do...
Red Arremer
Member
Lumbermills, unless the forests hold another resource.
That's not even a casus belli, though.
Faction A pledges to protect CS A
Faction B attacks CS A
Faction A can either choose to take a relations hit with CS or Faction B.
If faction A actually steps up and declares war to faction B, a warmonger hit is applied. This doesn't make sense.
Yeah, some of the diplomacy interactions are weird. I got a stern disapproval from England after I voted against an embargo on my own country.
"Don't expect to support your efforts"
...
No crap. You just tried to embargo me; why on earth would I expect that?
To be fair, it's just a case of the ai functioning generally, seeing me block one of its proposals rather than seeing me defend myself. Other interactions have genuinely puzzled me though.
I made one of the proposals that gives bonus culture for worked great person tiles and got hostile messages from some other civs stating that it was a blatant attack on their interests. Maybe they wouldn't benefit as much or even at all, but I don't see how a proposal that's purely positive constitutes an "attack" on anything.
"Don't expect to support your efforts"
...
No crap. You just tried to embargo me; why on earth would I expect that?
To be fair, it's just a case of the ai functioning generally, seeing me block one of its proposals rather than seeing me defend myself. Other interactions have genuinely puzzled me though.
I made one of the proposals that gives bonus culture for worked great person tiles and got hostile messages from some other civs stating that it was a blatant attack on their interests. Maybe they wouldn't benefit as much or even at all, but I don't see how a proposal that's purely positive constitutes an "attack" on anything.
Definitely one of mine as well, fascinating story (especially when Dandolo is involved, heh). I hope to be half as crafty and adventurous when I'm ninety.
Fragamemnon
Member
I chop the forest if it has a grassland underneath (good for farms or trading posts later) or is next to a river. If it is just sitting on top of a plains I leave it alone because plains tiles are EGAD BAD.
Forest/Jungle Flowchart:
1. Is the Forest/Jungle tile on a river and am I lacking in alternative food sources?
Yes -> Chop
No -> Don't chop
2. Am I rushing an early key wonder like Great Library?
Yes -> Chop
No -> Follow 1
3. Is this city going to be a production city, a gold city, a science city, or a specialist city?
Production -> Lumber mills (if Forest), Mine (if hills and enough food)
Gold -> Trading post
Science -> Trading post
Specialist -> Trading post or Farm
4. Do I get some sort of benefit from having these tiles due to UA/beliefs/policies?
Yes -> Only chop for river Farms in early game
No -> Follow 1, 2, 3
1. Is the Forest/Jungle tile on a river and am I lacking in alternative food sources?
Yes -> Chop
No -> Don't chop
2. Am I rushing an early key wonder like Great Library?
Yes -> Chop
No -> Follow 1
3. Is this city going to be a production city, a gold city, a science city, or a specialist city?
Production -> Lumber mills (if Forest), Mine (if hills and enough food)
Gold -> Trading post
Science -> Trading post
Specialist -> Trading post or Farm
4. Do I get some sort of benefit from having these tiles due to UA/beliefs/policies?
Yes -> Only chop for river Farms in early game
No -> Follow 1, 2, 3
Worker automation can be a recipe for disaster, so probably.
I personally micro them to the point where my improvement rate outstrips my city growth, and when I have made all the roads I need.
Then I send them to the nearest city to sleep or put them on auto, taking them off of it as needed when new resources spring up.
Then I send them to the nearest city to sleep or put them on auto, taking them off of it as needed when new resources spring up.
Fragamemnon
Member
Kinda sorta. I don't automate until t225 or so at the very earliest, and never really when playing wide empires or conquering since you need the workers to focus on trading posts and roads.
Okay got it, thanks for the answers! I've always hit automate for every Worker, so I'll have to look into controlling them.
Never automate workers in the early game. You need to have a clear improvement path planned out for every one of your cities, accounting for growth, production, happiness and expansion.
The only time you can afford to automate is when your cities are so well positioned that the effort spent on microing the workers further is no longer worth the number of clicks. Or during conquest, when you don't really need to setup each and every puppet city perfectly.
Remember, Civ is a game of compounding advantages. The smoother your start, the more benefits you'll reap over time, but once you hit the mid or late game, spending effort on things that don't have an immediate benefit isn't really worth the time at all (unless you're seriously min maxing).
The only time you can afford to automate is when your cities are so well positioned that the effort spent on microing the workers further is no longer worth the number of clicks. Or during conquest, when you don't really need to setup each and every puppet city perfectly.
Remember, Civ is a game of compounding advantages. The smoother your start, the more benefits you'll reap over time, but once you hit the mid or late game, spending effort on things that don't have an immediate benefit isn't really worth the time at all (unless you're seriously min maxing).
AI seriously sucks at plotting out a city beyond a few tile recommendations, to the point where it frustrates me because I need to trade off my duplicate luxuries, which I can't do until they improve their luxuries.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Man, don't you hate it when a Civ goes to war with you and it can't win, but it just won't stop? Like, you don't really want to spend the time generating troops to kill them off or take any of their cities, but they won't stop sending units to die at your cities.
I watched for 10+ turns in frustration as Chinese Battleships bombarded a 0 HP Egyptian city (all within retaliation range of said city, by the way), without one unit capable of capturing it moving over to actually finish it off. I could see an Infantry embarking and disembarking over and over again, like it wanted to be that hero, but its AI taskmaster couldn't quite decide where it was needed most.
Fragamemnon
Member
I ranted above Civ V, the "bucket" criticism which shouldn't be taken as criticism really, and Brave New World's ability to toss your mid and late game curveballs for the GIA if anyone is interested in reading:
http://thegia.com/2013/07/17/civilization-v-brave-new-worlds-buckets-of-adaptation/
The Civ IV hangers-on like Tom Chick do correctly realize that Civ V is about buckets, but miss the point that Civ has always been about buckets-of beakers, food, gold, etc. and the interesting point is how you fill those buckets. I'm not going to be beat around the bush-playing Civ IV after the lib race is a pretty boring thing. I've finished way more games of Civ V than IV despite having played as many hours because for all of its faults the endgame has always been better and has been improved so much more with BNW.
http://thegia.com/2013/07/17/civilization-v-brave-new-worlds-buckets-of-adaptation/
The Civ IV hangers-on like Tom Chick do correctly realize that Civ V is about buckets, but miss the point that Civ has always been about buckets-of beakers, food, gold, etc. and the interesting point is how you fill those buckets. I'm not going to be beat around the bush-playing Civ IV after the lib race is a pretty boring thing. I've finished way more games of Civ V than IV despite having played as many hours because for all of its faults the endgame has always been better and has been improved so much more with BNW.
I know that feel. I usually play defensive tall empires, so while my military is small I'm never too weak to repel an attack. I spent one game watching Oda and Maria Theresa taunt me as a weakling and then fail to defeat my one city empire armed with only a crossbow. I'd mow them down, and they'd eventually run out units. lol, if only the AI was smart enough to realize when enough if enough.
Great article, I actually read it once that GIA thread popped up earlier :O
decoyplatypus
Member
Nice writeup.
I'm dying to hear more blow-by-blow accounts of AI behavior w/r/t the World Congress and tourism bombing on Immortal/Deity.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Whoa whoa whoa...the GIA is back from the dead? When did this happen?
smokeandmirrors
Banned
They think you are a warmonger!
Fragamemnon
Member
There are two really big impacts on Deity. One is that there is usually an AI Civ that got cities from a feeder of a leader like Washington or Rhamakenaasshole and went semi-runaway, and will produce huge amounts of tourism. They will either go Order or Autocracy depending on who is leading them. The warmongers aren't too much of a problem, but aggressive/industrious spammers like Hiawatha, Napoleon, Gustavus, can go Order along with some of the other AIs and cause huge problems because they vote in a block. If you are , say, a small Civ going Freedom you can have a hard time resisting their tourism pressure and the up-or-down vote in the Congress means that even if you hold a good chunk of votes they can ram through a World Ideology proposal and cause huge happiness problems.
The other consideration is if you go Autocratic you literally become a pariah in most games. That is hard to deal with, it's almost like an "all war" game from there on out but Autocracy is extremely powerful for smaller Civs looking to kill everyone (such as Monty) when combined with 3pt Commerce.
I shoulda done it, too. It was a captured city state and would have probably loved me forever
Heh, I was already a warmonger in the eyes of the world, and I can't say undeservedly. I nuked and wiped out Persia out of pure spite, then wiped out Indonesia out of spite when they went to war with my Russian ally, and even my closest allies were scared shitless by me by the end.
I did win culturally, but let's say I wasn't nice about it.
(They hate warmongers).
Regarding the couple of complaints about Elizabeth earlier, it's unfortunately coded into her AI behaviour - it's one of the main reasons I think Elizabeth is really poorly when she should be a horrendous opponent to play.
Elizabeth gets pissed off with another player for *anything* - she has the highest scores in the game for getting annoyed at people. She's not particularly a back stabber, she just gets really pissed at you for the slightest thing and never, ever lets to of that grudge. She isn't even very warlike so she won't back up her words with action - she just stays in a state of perpetual grumpyness.
Elizabeth gets pissed off with another player for *anything* - she has the highest scores in the game for getting annoyed at people. She's not particularly a back stabber, she just gets really pissed at you for the slightest thing and never, ever lets to of that grudge. She isn't even very warlike so she won't back up her words with action - she just stays in a state of perpetual grumpyness.
Basileus777
Member
I started a Venice game on Deity and I've progressed to the Industrial era. But I'm not really enjoying Venice's play style. I miss dealing with settlers and having to worry about holding land. Or maybe I should have tried it on a lower difficulty first (though I'm doing alright here), but I think I'm going to scrap this game.
Things like this make me want to play with random personalities more.
That's super depressing, lol. A permanent state of pms.
What was the original reason to not add clock (12/24) to Civ V?
Sucks that I need always load a mod to get the clock. I play full screen (17" laptop) so I dont see a windows clock.
Skipped G&K, bought BNW from Steam summer fast sale -33% and upgradet Civ V to gold (dunno what I got whit it tho).
So much new stuff, so little time to play. Plix gief me moaaar time to play.
Sucks that I need always load a mod to get the clock. I play full screen (17" laptop) so I dont see a windows clock.
Skipped G&K, bought BNW from Steam summer fast sale -33% and upgradet Civ V to gold (dunno what I got whit it tho).
So much new stuff, so little time to play. Plix gief me moaaar time to play.