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[Lionel Richie]

The character you face in the first tutorial fight is the same character you fight in the last fight. That is super LUDONARRATIVE CONSONANCE or whatever YouTube analysis slop creators call it these days. But it got me wondering: is there any other game that does that? It's such a cool touch and I doubt it wasn't intentional.

EDIT: Since apparently my english is broken (although I left the original message like it was for you to judge it for yourself), just to clarify I meant that you fight AGAINST Maelle in the very first fight of the game and also in the very final one.

Anyway, obviously GOTY. I need to talk about it BUT I will do so in the based and redpilled Open Spoilers thread. This thread is about the final conflict to see if it's been done before.

 

[Guesclin]

 

[peish]

verso is the first character i fought with? did you even play teh game?

 

[IFireflyl]

The character you face in the first tutorial fight is the same character you fight in the last fight.

Gustave =/= Verso

I misunderstood what the OP was saying because I am a dumbass who can't read good.

 

[Lionel Richie]

verso is the first character i fought with? did you even play teh game?

Gustave =/= Verso

I meant to say that you fight AGAINST Maelle in the first fight and also in the last. Assuming you picked the correct ending that is.

 

[Valt7786]

But I did pick the correct ending and I fought Verso.

 

[IFireflyl]

I meant to say that you fight AGAINST Maelle in the first fight and also in the last. Assuming you picked the correct ending that is.

Ah, gotcha. I didn't pick up on that, but that is interesting!

 

[MSduderino]

Thanks for pointing this out actually missed it, but I chose to fight AS MAELLE at the end. Either way it works. GOTY for me and actually my GOAT as well. Love to see threads with love to it even though it seems like a daily occurrence at this point.

 

[SamuraiEdge]

Thanks for pointing this out actually missed it, but I chose to fight AS MAELLE at the end. Either way it works. GOTY for me and actually my GOAT as well. Love to see threads with love to it even though it seems like a daily occurrence at this point.

Game is pure kino of the highest order, you love to see it.

 

[Lionel Richie]

But I did pick the correct ending and I fought Verso.

Thanks for pointing this out actually missed it, but I chose to fight AS MAELLE at the end. Either way it works. GOTY for me and actually my GOAT as well. Love to see threads with love to it even though it seems like a daily occurrence at this point.

I extrapolated a bit for comedy, but this may also be the first game where you have a binary choice at the end and both endings feed off each other. I think people need to see both (and you can, if you reload the save after beating the game, go into the menu and select a previous save that puts you right in the final cutscene before the choice) and there's also multiple ways to read both of them. Alicia has the Chroma AIDS in her ending, while in Verso's ending she's suitably alone despite being around her family moments ago. It's very tragic, but I wouldn't call it depressing, just a cool study on the implications of living a fantasy vs. living a shitty life.

What puts the Verso ending over the top for me and makes it IMO the "good" ending is that in the Maelle ending she is not living HER fantasy. She's living in the shadow of her brother, this is not a world she created or even inherited. She's literally hiding herself in the works of her family, unable to do anything other than replicate it. Verso says something like "you can create other worlds" and yeah, that's what she SHOULD do. I don't see it as a rejection of fantasy, like FFT for the GBA, but rather the importance of having an identity. It also fits with her Axon, the one who reach for the sky or something like that lol.

 

[Last Hearth]

I extrapolated a bit for comedy, but this may also be the first game where you have a binary choice at the end and both endings feed off each other. I think people need to see both (and you can, if you reload the save after beating the game, go into the menu and select a previous save that puts you right in the final cutscene before the choice) and there's also multiple ways to read both of them. Alicia has the Chroma AIDS in her ending, while in Verso's ending she's suitably alone despite being around her family moments ago. It's very tragic, but I wouldn't call it depressing, just a cool study on the implications of living a fantasy vs. living a shitty life.

What puts the Verso ending over the top for me and makes it IMO the "good" ending is that in the Maelle ending she is not living HER fantasy. She's living in the shadow of her brother, this is not a world she created or even inherited. She's literally hiding herself in the works of her family, unable to do anything other than replicate it. Verso says something like "you can create other worlds" and yeah, that's what she SHOULD do. I don't see it as a rejection of fantasy, like FFT for the GBA, but rather the importance of having an identity. It also fits with her Axon, the one who reach for the sky or something like that lol.

Again, that only works if you assume the people in the canvas aren't real. If they are real and she's formed relationships and attachments to them. Then it's doesn't really matter if they were created by Verso. She's not hiding, she's choosing (at least for the time being) to keep those attachments in her life.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

I invite people who think Verso's ending is the correct one to try this process:

1. Beat the game
2. Choose Verso's ending
3. Restart a new game immediately
4. Play the game from the beginning until the departure of Expedition 33, making sure to talk to all the NPCs

Does Verso's ending still feel like the correct one?

I do think that the writers or developers push Verso's ending as the correct one in the end--perhaps unintentionally--and IMO that has a lot to do with how distant Lumiere (as a group of people, rather than just a location) is by the time you get to that final choice.

 

[Valt7786]

I extrapolated a bit for comedy, but this may also be the first game where you have a binary choice at the end and both endings feed off each other. I think people need to see both (and you can, if you reload the save after beating the game, go into the menu and select a previous save that puts you right in the final cutscene before the choice) and there's also multiple ways to read both of them. Alicia has the Chroma AIDS in her ending, while in Verso's ending she's suitably alone despite being around her family moments ago. It's very tragic, but I wouldn't call it depressing, just a cool study on the implications of living a fantasy vs. living a shitty life.

What puts the Verso ending over the top for me and makes it IMO the "good" ending is that in the Maelle ending she is not living HER fantasy. She's living in the shadow of her brother, this is not a world she created or even inherited. She's literally hiding herself in the works of her family, unable to do anything other than replicate it. Verso says something like "you can create other worlds" and yeah, that's what she SHOULD do. I don't see it as a rejection of fantasy, like FFT for the GBA, but rather the importance of having an identity. It also fits with her Axon, the one who reach for the sky or something like that lol.

For me it ultimately came down to helping Verso committing what was essentially genocide and forcing Maelle to live a life in practical solitude and misery to help himself and perhaps one family to move on, or giving Maelle the life she wanted with people she loved, at the cost of one mans happiness.

 

[Mr Moose]

I had a fight with a mime.

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

Nothing burger

 

[Lionel Richie]

Nothing burger

Your mother told me that's what she calls your father, because he's very McSmall.

Again, that only works if you assume the people in the canvas aren't real. If they are real and she's formed relationships and attachments to them. Then it's doesn't really matter if they were created by Verso. She's not hiding, she's choosing (at least for the time being) to keep those attachments in her life.

I think those people WERE real, but once Maelle takes over they are just replicas feeding into her illusion. That's what I take from Gustave and French Waifu coming back and those facial expressions were VERY uncomfortable. Verso begging to die was also a huge thing for me, since Maelle was appropriating HIS work as well.

For me it ultimately came down to helping Verso committing what was essentially genocide and forcing Maelle to live a life in practical solitude and misery to help himself and perhaps one family to move on, or giving Maelle the life she wanted with people she loved, at the cost of one mans happiness.

I respect your view on here and I respect anyone's view on this, there's no RIGHT ending. But for me, it felt like Verso wanted Maelle to move away from his shadow (along with REALLY not wanting to do this anymore lol). I don't read it as practical solitude, but rather as the search for one's own expression.

 

[Cert.in.Death]

 

[Loomy]

I think those people WERE real

They were all painted. The only 'real' people we see in the game are the parents, Clea, and injured Maelle at the end.

 

[Conflict NZ]

They were all painted. The only 'real' people we see in the game are the parents, Clea, and injured Maelle at the end.

Everyone in the painting lived complete lives, showed emotions and clearly had some degree of free will. Writing them of as not real doesn't really change that.

 

[LakeOf9]

You only fight against Maelle if you side with Verso in the ending, which to be clear is not a given

 

[PonyStation4]

delete

 

[ungalo]

What puts the Verso ending over the top for me and makes it IMO the "good" ending is that in the Maelle ending she is not living HER fantasy. She's living in the shadow of her brother

Or maybe it's just the totally disturbing and creepy tone of Maelle ending that makes it the bad ending, i'm just saying.

I don't understand why there are debates when the devs spell it out for the player without any subtelty.

 

[IFireflyl]

I invite people who think Verso's ending is the correct one to try this process:

1. Beat the game
2. Choose Verso's ending
3. Restart a new game immediately
4. Play the game from the beginning until the departure of Expedition 33, making sure to talk to all the NPCs

Does Verso's ending still feel like the correct one?

I do think that the writers or developers push Verso's ending as the correct one in the end--perhaps unintentionally--and IMO that has a lot to do with how distant Lumiere (as a group of people, rather than just a location) is by the time you get to that final choice.

Verso's ending is the correct ending. The people in the canvas aren't real. The people who are actually real need to move on from the canvas and accept Verso's death. Verso's ending forces them to return to reality where they can begin to rebuild/repair their lives. Maelle's ending results in Maelle tormenting fake-Verso by forcing him to continue living a life he doesn't want, all the while she is wasting away in the real world. Additionally, her mother will eventually be able to return to the painting and continue wasting away as well.

 

[Touch fuzZy. get BizZay]

I don't want this life

I don't want this life

I don't want this life

I don't want this life


If truth is "correct" then Verso's ending is the correct ending. Anything else is endlessly torturing Verso so you can play around in a pleasant delusion at his expense.

 

[Loomy]

Everyone in the painting lived complete lives, showed emotions and clearly had some degree of free will. Writing them of as not real doesn't really change that.

Well yes. Obviously they 'lived full lives' within the confines of the imaginary world these lived in. To them they were 'real'. But to us, the players, with the benefit of a holistic view of that world, and to the painted Verso, they were not 'real'.

That's all I meant.

 

[reinking]

Or maybe it's just the totally disturbing and creepy tone of Maelle ending that makes it the bad ending, i'm just saying.

I don't understand why there are debates when the devs spell it out for the player without any subtelty.

Then why have two endings if they want us to choose a specific one?

Also, I watched both endings. I still prefer the Maelle ending. You know why? Fuck Verso. That is why.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

Verso's ending is the correct ending. The people in the canvas aren't real. The people who are actually real need to move on from the canvas and accept Verso's death. Verso's ending forces them to return to reality where they can begin to rebuild/repair their lives. Maelle's ending results in Maelle tormenting fake-Verso by forcing him to continue living a life he doesn't want, all the while she is wasting away in the real world. Additionally, her mother will eventually be able to return to the painting and continue wasting away as well.

If this contradiction were a snake, it would've bitten you.

Dismissing the painted residents as fake, but turning around and sympathizing with Verso--who is 100% a canvas person--is paradoxical.

Either all canvas creations are fake and not worth saving, therefore meaning Verso's wishes carry no weight, or Verso's concerns are valid which would in turn legitimize the wishes of the many more non-Versos who originate in the painting world.

 

[IFireflyl]

If this contradiction were a snake, it would've bitten you.

Dismissing the painted residents as fake, but turning around and sympathizing with Verso--who is 100% a canvas person--is paradoxical.

Either all canvas creations are fake and not worth saving, therefore meaning Verso's wishes carry no weight, or Verso's concerns are valid which would in turn legitimize the wishes of the many more non-Versos who originate in the painting world.

What I said is that the people who matter are the people who are real outside of the canvas. That would be Alicia, Renoir, the daughter, and the mom (I forget their names). It is more important to save the real people, not the fake people. Maelle/Alicia staying in the canvas is still torment to the fake Verso. He's still conscious of this, even if he isn't real. That's sick, and at the same time it is killing the real Alicia.

Maelle's ending is obviously the bad ending because it results in real people and fake people alike in suffering (even if they aren't real, they're still suffering through magical means), whereas Verso's ending ends up with the fake people not suffering (because they no longer exist) and the real people able to finally deal with their grief and heal. The fake people are going to disappear one way or another. The question is whether that is sooner with Verso's ending, or later when the real Alicia dies (or when Renoir or Alicia's sister are able to destroy the canvas).

You missed the forest through the trees.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

I still disagree. Renoir--a real living person, and not a facsimile of a dead one--concedes to allowing Alicia to stay in the painting. Unlike Verso, he intimately understands the risks of residing in the painting, both in terms of having been entrapped himself, and in terms of rescuing someone else.

Renoir has spent 67 years in the painting. Alicia has only spent 16. If he gives his thumbs up, who is Verso to veto that?

For the record, I think the painting people are real--or real enough to deserve a say--and thus Verso's suffering is worth accounting for. It is a problem that Alicia keeps him alive in the end after he unequivocally expresses his desire to die, but I don't think that means we throw the baby out with the bathwater. Also Verso has apparently been rendered mortal, so he'll get his wish eventually.

 

[Lionel Richie]

They were all painted. The only 'real' people we see in the game are the parents, Clea, and injured Maelle at the end.

They were real within the confines of the setting, like C Conflict NZ mentioned. However, I think that once their creators were removed, Maelle made copies because the intent was subverted. To explain my point, I need to use a religious example: if GOD made us and we live in accordance with his rules, this is real for us. BUT if GOD-2 came into power and just SLIGHTLY altered things without a full understanding of everything, our lives would no longer be real as it was in the first God. I think I can expand on this to fully explain what I mean, but I need to formulate this thought a bit better lol.

 

[IFireflyl]

I still disagree. Renoir--a real living person, and not a facsimile of a dead one--concedes to allowing Alicia to stay in the painting. Unlike Verso, he intimately understands the risks of residing in the painting, both in terms of having been entrapped himself, and in terms of rescuing someone else.

Renoir has spent 67 years in the painting. Alicia has only spent 16. If he gives his thumbs up, who is Verso to veto that?

Renoir concedes because he doesn't want to be the on to destroy his and his daughter's relationship. Verso doesn't have that same restriction as his success means he disappears and Alicia can start to move on.

For the record, I think the painting people are real--or real enough to deserve a say--and thus Verso's suffering is worth accounting for. It is a problem that Alicia keeps him alive in the end after he unequivocally expresses his desire to die, but I don't think that means we throw the baby out with the bathwater. Also Verso has apparently been rendered mortal, so he'll get his wish eventually.

There is nothing to indicate that Verso is now mortal.

The issue with the painting people getting a say is that they're going to disappear regardless. The painting cannot last forever, and as soon as Maelle/Alicia dies, everyone in the painting disappears. Prolonging this and making the real people suffer is not the solution.

 

[Loomy]

They were real within the confines of the setting, like C Conflict NZ mentioned. However, I think that once their creators were removed, Maelle made copies because the intent was subverted. To explain my point, I need to use a religious example: if GOD made us and we live in accordance with his rules, this is real for us. BUT if GOD-2 came into power and just SLIGHTLY altered things without a full understanding of everything, our lives would no longer be real as it was in the first God. I think I can expand on this to fully explain what I mean, but I need to formulate this thought a bit better lol.

I don't think there's necessarily a wrong answer here. It's like going to a gallery and standing in front of a Piet Mondrian painting. It's a bunch of multicoloured squares on a canvas, but different people will bring different perspectives to it.

 

[kpopSuperstar]

I chose Verso because I couldn't stand the little kid who painted to be forced to continue, when he clearly wanted to end it.

There was something cruel about Alicia disregarding the kid suffering.

 

[Raven117]

Both are brilliant endings and says alot about you by which one you prefer.

Verso is the best ending. Truth

 

[rubik's dude]

People are misunderstanding the reason why Verso's soul was suffering, it was because of the wanton death and destruction Clea and Renoir were causing to the world he'd created. Die, rebirth, die, rebirth. That was the problem.

The act of painting itself wasn't the issue, and in Maelle's ending, Clea and Renoir aren't around anymore, so even in Maelle's ending, Verso's soul doesn't have to suffer anymore.

 

[Lionel Richie]

I chose Verso because I couldn't stand the little kid who painted to be forced to continue, when he clearly wanted to end it.

There was something cruel about Alicia disregarding the kid suffering.

Good point about her ignoring the kid suffering, I think Alicia at that point is so far gone in denial that she denies the possibility she won't be able to live in denial anymore lol. Verso isn't being entirely selfless here and it loops back to how Alicia reacts. She doesn't want him to be gone, but he IS gone.

People are misunderstanding the reason why Verso's soul was suffering, it was because of the wanton death and destruction Clea and Renoir were causing to the world he'd created. Die, rebirth, die, rebirth. That was the problem.

The act of painting itself wasn't the issue, and in Maelle's ending, Clea and Renoir aren't around anymore, so even in Maelle's ending, Verso's soul doesn't have to suffer anymore.

I don't really agree here, Verso very clearly WASN'T a painter, he says so himself. The fact that his sister continues to "keep him alive" is fitting, because she wants him to continue living a life not really for him. There's a Louis CK joke about marriages lasting forever and ever, then a dude dies before the wife and years later when she arrives for them to continue their marriage he goes "now? but I got a new girlfriend". Continuance is often a selfish act.

 

[Danjin44]

Both are brilliant endings and says alot about you by which one you prefer.

Verso is the best ending. Truth

No matter how you slice it what Verso did was the right choice even tho looks cruel at a glance.

 

[Raven117]

No matter how you slice it what Verso did was the right choice even tho looks cruel at a glance.

I don't disagree.

But there are some folks who would think otherwise. Rather live in fantasy than face the reality.

 

[Plies]

I had a fight with a mime.

Yo, spoiler tag that shit.

 

[Danjin44]

I don't disagree.

But there are some folks who would think otherwise. Rather live in fantasy than face the reality.

And that one massage of this game, running away from grief is not healthy.

If you remember in Automata the pain of grief was too much for Pascal so she asks A2 either kill her or erase her memory but you also had a 3rd choice, do none of it and just walk away.

Pascal will hate A2 for it and think it's cruel but it's nicest thing you can do for him since Pascal wanted be like human and part of being human is overcoming that pain.

 

[rubik's dude]

I don't really agree here, Verso very clearly WASN'T a painter, he says so himself.

Yes, he says that music, specifically the piano, was his preferred art. But we're never given a reason to believe that Verso's soul is suffering because he's painting and not playing the piano.

Every time we talk to the faded boy, an avatar for Verso's soul, he laments the death and devastation that the Nevrons are causing. That's what's tormenting him, watching his creations be killed only to be rebirthed and killed again.

 

[Madflavor]

Verso was 100% correct, never asked or deserved to be in the predicament he was in, and had every right to be an asshole.

Alicia needs to face reality and reach the acceptance stage of her grief. Even if she absolutely cannot continue to function in the real world, then she should go paint her own fantasy instead of continuing to use Verso's, where the last remaining piece of his soul continues to get tortured.

 

[Raven117]

And that one massage of this game, running away from grief is not healthy.

If you remember in Automata the pain of grief was too much for Pascal so she asks A2 either kill her or erase her memory but you also had a 3rd choice, do none of it and just walk away.

Pascal will hate A2 for it and think it's cruel but it's nicest thing you can do for him since Pascal wanted be like human and part of being human is overcoming that pain.

Yup. That is the one part of Neir that really slumped me back in my chair.

On a side note, to me grief isn't something that is really overcome. It's just something of an acceptance that you will never be put together the same way again.

Anyway, the fact that most of the game is like that, and done in such a mature manner really puts this at game of the generation for me. And very high on the top of all time.

 

[peish]

I meant to say that you fight AGAINST Maelle in the first fight and also in the last. Assuming you picked the correct ending that is.

Im just meme'ing with you

anyway the first maelle fight, music is titled Our drafts unite.

the final fight with maelle, the song is titled Our drafts collide.

Same music with different tone and added vocals!

Goes to show much details were put into making COE33. Something i expected from Kojima-san or older Squarenix.

 

[TaciturnWolf]

The character you face in the first tutorial fight is the same character you fight in the last fight. That is super LUDONARRATIVE CONSONANCE or whatever YouTube analysis slop creators call it these days. But it got me wondering: is there any other game that does that? It's such a cool touch and I doubt it wasn't intentional.

EDIT: Since apparently my english is broken (although I left the original message like it was for you to judge it for yourself), just to clarify I meant that you fight AGAINST Maelle in the very first fight of the game and also in the very final one.

Anyway, obviously GOTY. I need to talk about it BUT I will do so in the based and redpilled Open Spoilers thread. This thread is about the final conflict to see if it's been done before.

That's nothing new and is actually a common storytelling trope. Games like Tales of the Abyss, Undertale, and Ghost of Tsushima have done that.

 

[MSduderino]

That's nothing new and is actually a common storytelling trope. Games like Tales of the Abyss, Undertale, and Ghost of Tsushima have done that.

With all due respect, the story is a million times better in Clair Obscur than GoT and Maelle changes a lot more over the course of the game than that stupid Uncle character who made no sense in the first place. I forgot you faced him in the beginning and the two endings in GoT were nothing to write home about. We've had multiple spoiler threads about this game.

 

[Lionel Richie]

That's nothing new and is actually a common storytelling trope. Games like Tales of the Abyss, Undertale, and Ghost of Tsushima have done that.

Not sure about Undertale and Tales of the Abyss (I badly hope they remaster TotA), but I'm VERY sure that what I mentioned isn't what happens in GoT.

 

[Griffon]

I'm still a bit disappointed that the 3rd act is basically "it was all a dream lol jk".


All that cool backstory and characters seem completely wasted by the end. Everything gets overshadowed by the family drama of what are basically brand new characters unrelated to the world of Lumiere.
It's cool and meta and all, but I guess I have had enough of creators feeling too clever with hammering us on the head with their themes.

 

[MSduderino]

All that cool backstory and characters seem completely wasted by the end.

But it's not wasted IMO. The whole game takes place there and if you choose Maelle's ending, so does the after. The characters in the painted world are real or at least they want to live and are frightened at the thought of inevitable death, like any real person. I think the game makes you think about this and dismisses "it was all a dream" as a simple explanation (like in Zelda Link's Awakening), but it could go further in exploring this too. As others have mentioned, there isn't a buzz lightyear "you mean someone created me" moment for Lune or Sciel, even though they fully learn they were painted/created.

 

[Danjin44]

I'm still a bit disappointed that the 3rd act is basically "it was all a dream lol jk".

except its not "dream" its just another world inside the painting.

Its no different than how Gaea was created in Escaflowne.