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[seb85]

Verso ending is th true ending and the game hints that when verso ask the younger verso if he wants to continue painting he tilted his head with no.

 

[calico]

To an outside observer (the player being asked to make the decision), why is the fate of a part of OG Verso's soul more important than everyone living in the Canvas?

 

[a'la mode]

To an outside observer (the player being asked to make the decision), why is the fate of a part of OG Verso's soul more important than everyone living in the Canvas?

I mean... that is the question you have to ask yourself as you're asked to make that decision. You know what's at stake, and the game is asking you, the player, what is more important to you. Not what is more important to Maelle or Verso.

what is subtext

 

[Bojji]

To an outside observer (the player being asked to make the decision), why is the fate of a part of OG Verso's soul more important than everyone living in the Canvas?

Yeah, it's not.

Third ending should be: canvas entities being left alone by Alicia that finally comes to terms with what happened in reality (after spending a year or two inside painting with friends). Maelle would just visit from time to time and that's it. This is what would be a good ending and this is what conversation of Renoir and Alicia suggested before Verso jumped into the portal.

But I think game was designed with "loss" as a main theme so we can't have that. Maybe DLC/expansion?

 

[Madflavor]

To an outside observer (the player being asked to make the decision), why is the fate of a part of OG Verso's soul more important than everyone living in the Canvas?

Because the people in the Canvas are existing to serve Maelle's fantasy and escapism, and their existance has been made to suffer because of Renoir and Aline's grief. The Canvas should have been burned the day Verso died, but Aline kept it alive at the costing of her own life, because she couldn't let go of Verso. Now the same thing will happen to Maelle, and make no mistake, the people of Lumiere are going to die anyway. Maelle is either going to stay in the painting until her life burns out and Renoir then burns the Canvas, or Renoir goes in to get Maelle, finds a far more mentally broken daughter, pulls her out and burns the Canvas anyway.

That's key to understand. The Canvas WILL die eventually and the people are on borrowed time. The question is do you prolong the Dessendre's grief, or do you rip the cord and make them finally face their grief and pave the way to them finally healing?

I would argue that players who chose the Maelle ending did not pay attention to all of the lessons the game tries to teach you about how destructive Grief can be.

 

[calico]

I mean... that is the question you have to ask yourself as you're asked to make that decision. You know what's at stake, and the game is asking you, the player, what is more important to you. Not what is more important to Maelle or Verso.

what is subtext

I know, I already asked myself when I made the choice, now I'm posing the question to people who choose Verso's ending...

 

[Bojji]

Because the people in the Canvas are existing to serve Maelle's fantasy and escapism, and their existance has been made to suffer because of Renoir and Aline's grief. The Canvas should have been burned the day Verso died, but Aline kept it alive at the costing of her own life, because she couldn't let go of Verso. Now the same thing will happen to Maelle, and make no mistake, the people of Lumiere are going to die anyway. Maelle is either going to stay in the painting until her life burns out and Renoir then burns the Canvas, or Renoir goes in to get Maelle, finds a far more mentally broken daughter, pulls her out and burns the Canvas anyway.

That's key to understand. The Canvas WILL die eventually and the people are on borrowed time. The question is do you prolong the Dessendre's grief, or do you rip the cord and make them finally face their grief and pave the way to them finally healing?

I would argue that players who chose the Maelle ending did not pay attention to all of the lessons the game tries to teach you about how destructive Grief can be.

They existed way before Alicia jumped into the painting.

 

[calico]

Because the people in the Canvas are existing to serve Maelle's fantasy and escapism, and their existance has been made to suffer because of Renoir and Aline's grief. The Canvas should have been burned the day Verso died, but Aline kept it alive at the costing of her own life, because she couldn't let go of Verso. Now the same thing will happen to Maelle, and make no mistake, the people of Lumiere are going to die anyway. Maelle is either going to stay in the painting until her life burns out and Renoir then burns the Canvas, or Renoir goes in to get Maelle, finds a far more mentally broken daughter, pulls her out and burns the Canvas anyway.

That's key to understand. The Canvas WILL die eventually and the people are on borrowed time. The question is do you prolong the Dessendre's grief, or do you rip the cord and make them finally face their grief and pave the way to them finally healing?

I would argue that players who chose the Maelle ending did not pay attention to all of the lessons the game tries to teach you about how destructive Grief can be.

'They'll die eventually anyway' is not typically considered a valid excuse to murder people, but it is at least an answer. Some people in the canvas appear to be suffering, but it is by no means all of them.

I understand what the game is saying about facing the grief or trying to escape from it, but it's how people are so easily getting from there to 'therefore killing everyone in the Canvas is the right option' that I'm not quite following their reasoning on.

If the only considerations were 'should the OG family continue to take the blue pill (escape the grief / bad life outside of the canvas) or red pill (face it)' I would agree with the latter and I think that would quite obviously be the better option. This would be the scenario if eg. the Canvas was portrayed as being an imaginary world full of imaginary people, but it isn't.

I think burning the Canvas stopped being a morally acceptable option as soon as they brought (what I consider to be) non-imaginary people into existence to inhabit it. Much like if God (assume God exists) decided to destroy our world (or the Dessendre's world) just because it had become inconvenient for whatever reason - he could do it, but I would consider it a morally bad thing to do.

 

[Regginator]

Verso was my 1st ending. It made thematically more sense to me. It's technically his painting, so he should get the deciding vote. Also, the way he's pretty much forced to live a puppet life in the Maelle ending despite his wishes is pretty fucked up.

But then again, choosing the Verso ending means destroying the canvas and killing everyone in it, which at first glace shouldn't really matter because it's "just" a fantasy world, but its inhabitants are actually sentient and have free will. That makes it pretty fucked up as well.

So yeah, both endings are fucked up. And despite it objectively being more fucked up for a lot more beings, I went with Verso the first time. It felt more like the "real" and bittersweet ending, whereas Maelle's was straight-up creepy.

 

[bbeach123]

If there an ending I could save all of the painted people and kill all of the playing God painter included the mc.

They deserve to live than these fuckers .

 

[nowhat]

Went with Verso. Although the Maelle ending is suitably bleak as well.

But going forward (I think there obviously will be a sequel, or at least I hope so), I doubt we'll be seeing much of this family. It will be more about the Painters and Writers. So that got me thinking. This may be an allegory of game development. We have the "Painters" (artists) and the "Writers". At some point I'd assume we'd encounter another faction of the "Engineers" (programmers).

But that will all be a ruse, as there's the true enemy. Middle management

 

[Madflavor]

They existed way before Alicia jumped into the painting.

Yes, but in Maelle's ending they were repainted and are then existing to serve her fantasy. We also don't know to what extent their will is their own and whether or not they are they exact same people who died before, or just copies. The fact that Verso begged her that he doesn't want this life, and then was up on that stage seemingly against his will in order to play the piano and "perform" for Maelle, suggests that Maelle is willing to use and control people to continue enabling her escapism.

It's worth noting that the Maelle you see in the climax/ending is not the same Maelle throughout the game. By the finale she is consumed by her pursuit of preserving the Canvas, so she doesn't have to go back to reality.

'They'll die eventually anyway' is not typically considered a valid excuse to murder people, but it is at least an answer. Some people in the canvas appear to be suffering, but it is by no means all of them.

I'm not saying it is a valid excuse to "murder" people, but these are the circumstances the story has presented. And let's be fair here, the humans of Lumiere were already dead in Act 3, with the exception of the Party. It was a question of whether or not to bring them back.

I understand what the game is saying about facing the grief or trying to escape from it, but it's how people are so easily getting from there to 'therefore killing everyone in the Canvas is the right option' that I'm not quite following their reasoning on.

If the only considerations were 'should the OG family continue to take the blue pill (escape the grief / bad life outside of the canvas) or red pill (face it)' I would agree with the latter and I think that would quite obviously be the better option. This would be the scenario if eg. the Canvas was portrayed as being an imaginary world full of imaginary people, but it isn't.

I think burning the Canvas stopped being a morally acceptable option as soon as they brought (what I consider to be) non-imaginary people into existence to inhabit it. Much like if God (assume God exists) decided to destroy our world (or the Dessendre's world) just because it had become inconvenient for whatever reason - he could do it, but I would consider it a morally bad thing to do.

If Renoir doesn't burn the painting, Clea eventually probably would. Especially if the Canvas consumes Maelle, because then at that point the Dessendre's lost two family members.

I understand your perspective on this, and I think it opens up a conversation about whether or not Painters and Writers should plays gods and create sentient life to begin with. We don't know the exact circumstances why Painters and Writers are at war, but this could be part of it.

 

[Bojji]

Yes, but in Maelle's ending they were repainted and are then existing to serve her fantasy. We also don't know to what extent their will is their own and whether or not they are they exact same people who died before, or just copies. The fact that Verso begged her that he doesn't want this life, and then was up on that stage seemingly against his will in order to play the piano and "perform" for Maelle, suggests that Maelle is willing to use and control people to continue enabling her escapism.

It's worth noting that the Maelle you see in the climax/ending is not the same Maelle throughout the game. By the finale she is consumed by her pursuit of preserving the Canvas, so she doesn't have to go back to reality.



I'm not saying it is a valid excuse to "murder" people, but these are the circumstances the story has presented. And let's be fair here, the humans of Lumiere were already dead in Act 3, with the exception of the Party. It was a question of whether or not to bring them back.



If Renoir doesn't burn the painting, Clea eventually probably would. Especially if the Canvas consumes Maelle, because then at that point the Dessendre's lost two family members.

I understand your perspective on this, and I think it opens up a conversation about whether or not Painters and Writers should plays gods and create sentient life to begin with. We don't know the exact circumstances why Painters and Writers are at war, but this could be part of it.

I agree, what Maelle did with verso was really cruel. Especially after she didn't hesitate to erase painted Alice.

 

[calico]

It's technically his painting, so he should get the deciding vote.

Painted Verso making the decision is neither the original Verso or even the equivalent of a clone of the original Verso, so I think any claim to ownership of the Canvas he might have compared to anyone else is quite tenuous. Not that I think even if we could establish an 'owner' it would give that person the right to murder everyone in it.

Painted Verso (like the rest of the Painted Family) is Aline's grief-stricken interpretation, which is probably why they are all so inclined toward unhappiness compared to the other Painted denizens of the Canvas.

Maelle should have offered him the same delete option she extends to Alicia though, eventually, but only if he becomes consistent in that desire which is not really shown to be the case throughout the game.

 

[Reaseru]

'They'll die eventually anyway' is not typically considered a valid excuse to murder people, but it is at least an answer. Some people in the canvas appear to be suffering, but it is by no means all of them.

I understand what the game is saying about facing the grief or trying to escape from it, but it's how people are so easily getting from there to 'therefore killing everyone in the Canvas is the right option' that I'm not quite following their reasoning on.

If the only considerations were 'should the OG family continue to take the blue pill (escape the grief / bad life outside of the canvas) or red pill (face it)' I would agree with the latter and I think that would quite obviously be the better option. This would be the scenario if eg. the Canvas was portrayed as being an imaginary world full of imaginary people, but it isn't.

I think burning the Canvas stopped being a morally acceptable option as soon as they brought (what I consider to be) non-imaginary people into existence to inhabit it. Much like if God (assume God exists) decided to destroy our world (or the Dessendre's world) just because it had become inconvenient for whatever reason - he could do it, but I would consider it a morally bad thing to do.

This is precisely why I think there shouldn't be a bad/good ending setting for Ex33.

Maelle's ending may be selfish, but Verso's ending also has a selfish motive behind his choice. (In his ending,) He didn't end the canvas' world to help Maelle and her family to overcome the grief for the real Verso's death. No. He ended the world because he wanted to die, and he didn't wanted to live a life based on a lie, and for that, he sacrificed everybody else inside the canvas world.

Maelle while being selfish, she saw whose people not as ginea pigs or sacrificial lambs like her family saw, but as better friends and family to her, and the only reality. (She lived for 16 year inside the canvas, and for her, those friends were always present and saw her as a precious individual, while her parents were not always for her, immersed in their paintings for most of their lives, and saw her as weak element inside the family (as a painter, and later guilty for her talented brother death).

She was reborn in that world, and for her those people had a meaning and a lives to live, and not to be killed on a whim by her parents. And for that she sacrified Verso's individuality to restore the world and friends that she lost...

 

[mèx]

From a detached point of view (as the player of the game) it's easy to choose Verso, it's what makes most sense after the fight with Renoir and what is revealed there.

But I wouldn't throw Maelle's ending under the bus, if you were put in that specific situation what would you actually do? Just let everything be destroyed? I'm doubtful.

 

[Madflavor]

This is precisely why I think there shouldn't be a bad/good ending setting for Ex33.

Maelle's ending may be selfish, but Verso's ending also has a selfish motive behind his choice. (In his ending,) He didn't end the canvas' world to help Maelle and her family to overcome the grief for the real Verso's death. No. He ended the world because he wanted to die, and he didn't wanted to live a life based on a lie, and for that, he sacrificed everybody else inside the canvas world.

Maelle while being selfish, she saw whose people not as ginea pigs or sacrificial lambs like her family saw, but as better friends and family to her, and the only reality. (She lived for 16 year inside the canvas, and for her, those friends were always present and saw her as a precious individual, while her parents were not always for her, immersed in their paintings for most of their lives, and saw her as weak element inside the family (as a painter, and later guilty for her talented brother death).

She was reborn in that world, and for her those people had a meaning and a lives to live, and not to be killed on a whim by her parents. And for that she sacrified Verso's individuality to restore the world and friends that she lost...

I'm not convinced Verso's choice was selfish, due to the fact that he called Maelle out for lying to Renoir, and quoting him that "life keeps forcing cruel choices". Did it benefit Verso because he wanted to die? Yeah I'm sure. But Maelle being consumed by the Canvas which will inevitably lead to her death, and further tragedy on the family, was the main motivation for Verso. Notice how during the final battle, Verso never says a word to Renoir. The camera keeps cutting to Verso, and it looks like he's going to have some dialogue, but instead it just shows him listening intently. He's listening to Renoir and Maelle's conversation, and he knows Maelle is lying to her father and is going down the same path as Aline.

 

[CLW]

The only way to consider the Verso ending the 'good' choice is if you don't consider the denizens of the Canvas to be 'real'. Otherwise what may well be 'good' for the OG family is coming at the cost of a genocide, and you know that at the time of making the choice.

I don't think the Canvas can strictly be considered a 'fantasy' world. The OG family are effectively gods visiting a world of their own creation, but it is still portrayed as being a real world with real people in it, not merely an imaginary world with imaginary people.

The game is essentially asking the same questions as Blade Runner: can a created person ever be considered a real person, with the same rights as a real person, or are they always 'less than' real and therefore disposable / less worthy of consideration?

Maelle and Verso both take a different position on that, but both of them are having their position influenced to an unknown degree by their own selfish reasons too.

Yeah accept the created person is telling the real person he isn't real and that the fantasy must be destroyed

 

[calico]

Hard to say how much either of them is being influenced by their own selfish reasons, only that they both have them and both have unselfish reasons too.

I think it's right that Verso sees Maelle sounds like a drug addict and is obviously lying (Renoir caves and accepts her BS a little easily for my liking when by this point he seems absolutely resolved to not accept it any longer) but Verso may well have been listening to that conversation and realising that she would never let him go, and that the only way he could stop existing is if the whole Canvas did.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Verso is the most selfish character i meet in a video game.

Because at some point he wanted to have a "life" with Julie and after killing her he just wanted to end everything ? like, " i killed the love of my life and my Mom wont paint her again, for this i want to die, but i cant cause i m immortal, so i need to "kill" my Mom in order to my "real" Dad erase my not so worth "life".... and thats it, thats pretty much all Verso motivation to erase the canvas.

Also he killed Gustave, fuck Verso and his selfish ass, seen Maelle obliging him to live a life he dont want made me smile, fucking piece of shit.

 

[calico]

Yeah accept the created person is telling the real person he isn't real and that the fantasy must be destroyed

Painted Verso feels that way, sure, at least he does sometimes like at the end of the game. I don't think that means he's right or that he gets to decide for everyone else.

In fact if he isn't real then we probably shouldn't assign any weight to anything he 'thinks' or 'feels' anyway. I would say that if he -as a distinct entity- is genuinely thinking and feeling then he is by definition 'real'.

I don't consider the Canvas to be a 'fantasy'. It's a world they created and inhabited with people, and which they assumed a duty of care for in the process.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Painted Verso feels that way, sure, at least he does sometimes like at the end of the game. I don't think that means he's right or that he gets to decide for everyone else.

In fact if he isn't real then we probably shouldn't assign any weight to anything he 'thinks' or 'feels' anyway. I would say that if he -as a distinct entity- is genuinely thinking and feeling then he is by definition 'real'.

I don't consider the Canvas to be a 'fantasy'. It's a world they created and inhabited with people, and which they assumed a duty of care for in the process.

its like a book, a book isnt real world, is a fantasy, the difference is that you can enter this fantasy painting and interact with it, but that dosnt make it real, even Verso acknowledges that its a make believe world.

 

[calico]

its like a book, a book isnt real world, is a fantasy, the difference is that you can enter this fantasy painting and interact with it, but that dosnt make it real, even Verso acknowledges that its a make believe world.

I disagree that it's like that. The game gives no indication that the people in the Canvas are only fake automatons with no real lives of their own.

Why would Painted Verso's acknowledgement or otherwise matter if he is not real anyway? If he is -in narrative- only make believe, then his thoughts are make believe and his suffering is only make believe, and his make believe suffering wouldn't matter anymore than it matters when the developer has make believe people make believe suffer in a video game.

 

[SlimySnake]

The ending absolutely wrecked me. Verso is one of the best characters in games and right up there with Joel, Arthur, Snake and Big Boss as the most memorable leads ever. What a performance by Ben Starr. If he doesnt win best Actor, im rioting.

Oh and I chose the ending which is probably why it had such a big impact. Thats something tv shows and movies cannot replicate. I love video games.

 

[MagiusNecros]

But I wouldn't throw Maelle's ending under the bus, if you were put in that specific situation what would you actually do? Just let everything be destroyed? I'm doubtful.

Probably would go Maelle route myself. I couldn't imagine living a life inside a living corpse. Deformed face and eye maybe but the damage to the nervous system meaning limited body function and not being able to speak.

I'd like to imagine if I had Picto powers I'd draw myself in a world that made good video games and they were all amazing and just lose myself in delusion.

The game really plays into the "everything is a simulation" like Enter the Matrix or Star Ocean 3 and makes you wonder if our own lives are also a simulation with the routine tasks we do everyday and then ponder if there is something beyond the surface.

 

[Bojji]

its like a book, a book isnt real world, is a fantasy, the difference is that you can enter this fantasy painting and interact with it, but that dosnt make it real, even Verso acknowledges that its a make believe world.

We have 2/3 of the game that shows us that entities in the canvas are as real as it gets, they get full spectrum of emotions and free will. Most of them were born in this world in the same way as "real" humans reproduce. Verso and entire painted family are different, they were created by Aline with character features of her family members "painted" into them, they have free will but they also have knowledge that they are "fake" - that would fuck up most people I imagine.

This isn't VR, painters have god like powers - then can create entire new worlds with sapient beings inside them. Just like with our God, they can just observe (what God does currently), live inside their creation (Jesus) or punish those living there (flood etc.) or even destroy it entirely (maybe what will happen to us in the future).

Like I said in my earlier post, ability like this should be banned in real life. Writers probably are very similar but they use other methods to create.

Clair Obscur vs. Alan Wake sequel?

 

[Regginator]

Painted Verso making the decision is neither the original Verso or even the equivalent of a clone of the original Verso, so I think any claim to ownership of the Canvas he might have compared to anyone else is quite tenuous. Not that I think even if we could establish an 'owner' it would give that person the right to murder everyone in it.

Painted Verso (like the rest of the Painted Family) is Aline's grief-stricken interpretation, which is probably why they are all so inclined toward unhappiness compared to the other Painted denizens of the Canvas.

Maelle should have offered him the same delete option she extends to Alicia though, eventually, but only if he becomes consistent in that desire which is not really shown to be the case throughout the game.

I don't think Maelle could've offered him the choice even if she wanted. I interpreted the canvas as being tied to the fate of (painted) Verso, and vice versa. One cannot exist with the other. After all, (real) Verso put a part of his soul into the painting (as Renoir said, every artist put a bit of themselves in their creation), and despite dying in the real-world, his painted counterpart continues to exist. Immortal, forever damned to roam. He's literally unable to die, unless he's unpainted by child Verso. And when that happens, the entire canvas dies with him, as we see in one ending. That's why, in order for the painted world to keep existing, Maelle is forced to keep him alive by pretty much making a puppet out of him, as we see in the other ending.

 

[Lokaum D+]

We have 2/3 of the game that shows us that entities in the canvas are as real as it gets, they get full spectrum of emotions and free will. Most of them were born in this world in the same way as "real" humans reproduce. Verso and entire painted family are different, they were created by Aline with character features of her family members "painted" into them, they have free will but they also have knowledge that they are "fake" - that would fuck up most people I imagine.

This isn't VR, painters have god like powers - then can create entire new worlds with sapient beings inside them. Just like with our God, they can just observe (what God does currently), live inside their creation (Jesus) or punish those living there (flood etc.) or even destroy it entirely (maybe what will happen to us in the future).

Like I said in my earlier post, ability like this should be banned in real life. Writers probably are very similar but they use other methods to create.

Clair Obscur vs. Alan Wake sequel?

when i say that is not real its from the perspective of the game world, for those who live inside the paint of course its a real world, but for those who created its not, now looking as an spectator for 2/3 of the game we thought it was a real world since we knew nothing about it, once we discover that the world is indeed fake we dont care, cause we are way to attached with the characters and we want them to live happy lifes.

Alicia "asks" on her letter, what world Maelle ll paint since she lived as both painter and painted, my perfect ending would be Maelle bringing back at least Gustave, she going out the painting and sealing it somehow giving Verso soul the free will to continue to paint with joy or stop without anyone ever bothering him again.

 

[Bojji]

I don't think Maelle could've offered him the choice even if she wanted. I interpreted the canvas as being tied to the fate of (painted) Verso, and vice versa. One cannot exist with the other. After all, (real) Verso put a part of his soul into the painting (as Renoir said, every artist put a bit of themselves in their creation), and despite dying in the real-world, his painted counterpart continues to exist. Immortal, forever damned to roam. He's literally unable to die, unless he's unpainted by child Verso. And when that happens, the entire canvas dies with him, as we see in one ending. That's why, in order for the painted world to keep existing, Maelle is forced to keep him alive by pretty much making a puppet out of him, as we see in the other ending.

I don't think painted Verso is connected to the soul of the real Verso. Entire immortal family was created by Aline after real Verso died.

Soul Verso = child Verso and he exist there since painting was created, painted Verso was able to get to him in the end and talk with him (Alice said the he shouldn't be there...). In the end painted Verso was selfish because he wanted to end himself and entire painted world as well - sounds like extended suicide to me. His motivation to help Alice and her real family wasn't his main goal.

 

[calico]

I don't think Maelle could've offered him the choice even if she wanted. I interpreted the canvas as being tied to the fate of (painted) Verso, and vice versa. One cannot exist with the other. After all, (real) Verso put a part of his soul into the painting (as Renoir said, every artist put a bit of themselves in their creation), and despite dying in the real-world, his painted counterpart continues to exist. Immortal, forever damned to roam. He's literally unable to die, unless he's unpainted by child Verso. And when that happens, the entire canvas dies with him, as we see in one ending. That's why, in order for the painted world to keep existing, Maelle is forced to keep him alive by pretty much making a puppet out of him, as we see in the other ending.

I believe it's tied to the fate of the remnant of OG Verso's soul (little boy Verso, the original Painter of the Canvas), but not tied to Painted Verso. The Canvas predates Painted Verso being painted into existence by Aline.

I don't think Painted Verso is any more special / necessary than Painted Alicia is (who Maelle unpaints). Maelle keeps him around in her ending because she doesn't want to / can't bring herself to let him go, not because he has to exist for the Canvas to exist.

 

[calico]

we discover that the world is indeed fake

We discover that it's created, not that it's fake.

 

[Lokaum D+]

We discover that it's created, not that it's fake.

from the perspective of the game there is a real REAL world where the Effiel Tower isnt bended and there is the painted world that is fake, you may not agree with me, but that ll not change the fact that from the perspective of that world, the painted Lumiere is "fake".

 

[Grildon Tundy]

I went with Verso's ending, but Team Maelle here is making some strong arguments, assuming what they're saying is accurate. I don't have enough knowledge to try to refute.

 

[calico]

from the perspective of the game there is a real REAL world where the Effiel Tower isnt bended and there is the painted world that is fake, you may not agree with me, but that ll not change the fact that from the perspective of that world, the painted Lumiere is "fake".

I don't agree with you and I think you are using 'fake' inappropriately. Something being created doesn't make it fake. Does God (assume God exists) consider our world to be fake?

I think if the people in the 'Painters vs Writers' world perceive the Canvas world to not be real just because it is created (and they may well view it that way, or opinions may be split), they are also wrong (at least based on how the game portrays that world).

 

[Lokaum D+]

I don't agree with you and I think you are using 'fake' inappropriately. Something being created doesn't make it fake. Does God (assume God exists) consider our world to be fake?

I think if the people in the 'Painters vs Writers' world perceive the Canvas world to not be real just because it is created (and they may well view it that way, or opinions may be split), they are also wrong (at least based on how the game portrays that world).

for example, lets pretend that we already have the technology to create something like Westworld for example, its that fake or real ?

or even a VR world where you can interact with NPC in a realistic way like SAO universe, its that a fake or real world ? its all a matter of perspective, if you ask to someone that has no emotional attachment with said creation he ll probably say that is fake, if you ask someone that is in deep love with it he ll answer that is real, there is no right or wrong, its only different perspectives.

Like for me, i know ( as a player ) that the painted world isnt "real" and from the perspective of the "painters/writers" world, painted Lumiere isnt real either, its a world painted by young/old Verso before his death, Renoir, Clea, Aline even Maelle somehow acknowledge that the painted world is not "real", but there is one definitive aspect that ll prove that the painted world is indeeed not real, and it is Death, Death in the painted world isnt definitive and painted ppl are so not real that they can be just erased from said world, while real ppl can only die like Verso did and thats how you know that the painted world is not real. Thats why Aline fled to the painted Lumiere in order to fake her son back to life.

 

[calico]

for example, lets pretend that we already have the technology to create something like Westworld for example, its that fake or real ?

If the created inhabitants are sentient and the world you created imposes real limitations upon them then I would consider it a real world you have created, yes. How would this be different to God (assume he exists) creating our world?

I don't agree with you that 'real' vs 'not real' should be defined by perspective (in the sense of where someone is looking from), though people may ofc have different perspectives on what defines 'real'.

Why would immortality (not even really immortality in this case) define somebody as 'not real' or the world they inhabit as 'not real'? It may suggest a different set of rules between one world and the other, but I don't think it tells us they aren't real.

 

[Lokaum D+]

If the created inhabitants are sentient and the world you created imposes real limitations upon them then I would consider it a real world you have created, yes. How would this be different to God (assume he exists) creating our world?

I don't agree with you that 'real' vs 'not real' should be defined by perspective (in the sense of where someone is looking from), though people may ofc have different perspectives on what defines 'real'.

Why would immortality (not even really immortality in this case) define somebody as 'not real' or the world they inhabit as 'not real'? It may suggest a different set of rules between one world and the other, but I don't think it tells us they aren't real.

what tell us the difference in E33 world build is cause we have a metric of comparison, if we didn't so painted Lumiere would be real as real can get, but we have the real Lumiere that follows the same systems and logics of our actually real world ( the one we a living in right now ), so the painted Lumiere is just a stroke of imagination from some boy and thats where perspective kicks in.

Well, we ll not agree in this matter and that is clear as the real sky above my head.

 

[Critical Hit]

The Canvas should have been burned the day Verso died, but Aline kept it alive at the costing of her own life, because she couldn't let go of Verso.

Can someone explain me how things in this universe work? Real Verso was 27, there was a "fire" (no traces of it in the Manor) but somehow part of his soul trapped in the canvas, where he's somehow a young boy and his place in the canvas is different from the others - some kind of a layer which looks like a limbo, and where this "boy" is painting on another canvas which is where Lumier located?

Alan Wake

Please, no.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Can someone explain me how things in this universe work? Real Verso was 27, there was a "fire" (no traces of it in the Manor) but somehow part of his soul trapped in the canvas, where he's somehow a young boy and his place in the canvas is different from the others - some kind of a layer which looks like a limbo, and where this "boy" is painting on another canvas which is where Lumier located?


Please, no.

Real verso died at 26/27 in a fire started by the writers some antagonist faction that opposes the painters. When you wake up as Alicia/Maelle in the end of act 2 there are traces of the fire in the Manor. ( real world )

When someone creates something, there is a common saying that people pour their soul into their work, and that's where the idea of a trapped soul comes from imo, he painted the canvas when he was young, which is why his soul looks young. You can call the "soul of the painting" its heart, hidden from the painted world — just as we don't see God walking among us, they don't see Verso's painting. The canvas he was painting was just a symbol that is was trapped, in order to erase the canvas you need to make Verso's soul stop painting.

 

[Critical Hit]

When someone creates something, there is a common saying that people pour their soul into their work

Yes, but it means that every work has a part of the creator's soul. So, after his death you need to destroy all of them?

 

[Bojji]

what tell us the difference in E33 world build is cause we have a metric of comparison, if we didn't so painted Lumiere would be real as real can get, but we have the real Lumiere that follows the same systems and logics of our actually real world ( the one we a living in right now ), so the painted Lumiere is just a stroke of imagination from some boy and thats where perspective kicks in.

Well, we ll not agree in this matter and that is clear as the real sky above my head.

Even better, it's not Lumiere but plain old Paris (it can be seen when you try to leave manor). But it's not exactly our world, it has painters and writers that have magic (even god like) powers.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Yes, but it means that every work has a part of the creator's soul. So, after his death you need to destroy all of them?

From my understanding, no, not at all. They didn't even need to destroy that piece. The problem was that it was his only work, and Aline went crazy when he died. To save his wife, Renoir concluded that destroying the painting was the only way because she would prefer to die inside the canvas rather than deal with her grief in the real world. You can see this at the end, Maelle hid the canvas before entering and Aline found it as soon as she was cast out of it and entered again.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Even better, it's not Lumiere but plain old Paris (it can be seen when you try to leave manor). But it's not exactly our world, we have painters and writers that have magic (even god like) powers.

City of Lumiere its just a way to call Paris as long as i know but a French person can correct me, yeah, but aside from that God like power they die just like regular humans and need regular ways to kill human too, like burning someone house.

 

[Ridicululzz]

I chose Verso, and I'm glad I did. I watched the Maelle ending on YouTube, and everything just seemed off in that ending; from the color tones used, and of course the close-up of her face showing that she's succumbing to the same conditions as her mother.

I would say that an ideal third ending would be if the canvas was continued to allowed to exist, but it seems like the actual soul of Verso that's keeping the world together doesn't want to paint anymore, and if he stops painting the world ceases to exist.

I just had this thought, but maybe it's some sort of allegory to live service games lol

Should you ( as the dev ) continue to support your live service game if you just don't really want to work on it anymore, because there are people who still enjoy it?

 

[Lokaum D+]

I chose Verso, and I'm glad I did. I watched the Maelle ending on YouTube, and everything just seemed off in that ending; from the color tones used, and of course the close-up of her face showing that she's succumbing to the same conditions as her mother.

I would say that an ideal third ending would be if the canvas was continued to allowed to exist, but it seems like the actual soul of Verso that's keeping the world together doesn't want to paint anymore, and if he stops painting the world ceases to exist.

I just had this thought, but maybe it's some sort of allegory to live service games lol

Should you ( as the dev ) continue to support your live service game if you just don't really want to work on it anymore, because there are people who still enjoy it?

I think he got tired because of all the sadness and fighting his real family brought to the canvas.

Verso wasn't doing what he did for real Verso Soul to rest in peace, he did what he did cause he killed the love of his life and couldn't bare it, pure selfishness motivation, both ends are bittersweet, but i like to see him suffering in Maelle's ending and i think she did too, tbf at the end of the day he was trying to "kill" the "remaining" of her real brother soul.

 

[Bojji]

I think he got tired because of all the sadness and fighting his real family brought to the canvas.

Verso wasn't doing what he did for real Verso Souls to rest in peace, he did what he did cause he killed the love of his life and could bare it, pure selfishness motivation, both ends are bittersweet, but i like to see him suffering in Maelle's ending and i think she did too, tbf at the end of the day he was trying to "kill" the "remaining" of her real brother soul.

Aline was obessed with that painting, it's the last remain of her sons soul. Alice on the other hand couldn't let go because the was "fixed" inside, she could talk, see correctly and didn't have brutal scars all over her face. She belived that her life outside of canvas wasn't worth living... To be honest early 20th century wasn't a great time for people like her.

Other than that, she REALLY lived inside this painting, she was born and raised there - spend 16 years inside, she was part of that world.

Painted Alice scenes are a bit disturbing, mother created her with all the issues real Alice have, she was really envious when she saw Maelle...

This game is amazing on so many levels, top tier story.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Aline was obessed with that painting, it's the last remain of her sons soul. Alice on the other hand couldn't let go because the was "fixed" inside, she could talk, see correctly and didn't have brutal scars all over her face. She belived that her life outside of canvas wasn't worth living... To be honest early 20th century wasn't a great time for people like her.

Other than that, she REALLY lived inside this painting, she was born and raised there - spend 16 years inside, she was part of that world.

Painted Alice scenes are a bit disturbing, mother created her with all the issues real Alice have, she was really envious when she saw Maelle...

This game is amazing on so many levels, top tier story.

and thats why i think it was way out of character for her not even mentioning bringing Gustave back once she recovered her memories and powers, also she was too soft at fake Verso once she discovered that he let Renoir kill Gustave.

tbf i just wanted a mod to replace Verso model to Gustave, but mod community thinks that Wargreymon is a better fit

 

[mayham2199]

I think he got tired because of all the sadness and fighting his real family brought to the canvas.

Verso wasn't doing what he did for real Verso Soul to rest in peace, he did what he did cause he killed the love of his life and couldn't bare it, pure selfishness motivation, both ends are bittersweet, but i like to see him suffering in Maelle's ending and i think she did too, tbf at the end of the day he was trying to "kill" the "remaining" of her real brother soul.

Regardless of real fake Verso's motivation he was still doing the right thing. The real Verso sacrificed his life for his sister. He would hate to know that the only thing he did was end up forcing his sister to kill herself as well as his mother in his last painting. Even the last remaining piece of Verso's soul wanted to stop painting. It never gives you a reason why it just says it doesn't want to do it anymore. I would find it more plausible it wanted to stop painting so it wouldn't kill his mother and sister.

and thats why i think it was way out of character for her not even mentioning bringing Gustave back once she recovered her memories and powers, also she was too soft at fake Verso once she discovered that he let Renoir kill Gustave.

That's because she doesn't really see the paintings as real or care about their feelings\thoughts. It's shown several times in the story. When she killed fake Verso's sister she didn't even think of letting him say goodbye or even have a say in it. She repainted over Verso even though he begged her not to, she didn't care how he felt about it.

 

[Ridicululzz]

I think he got tired because of all the sadness and fighting his real family brought to the canvas.

I think that's a plausible way of looking why he was tired of painting.

That raises the question though – would it still be right to ask him to keep painting? When Verso asks him to if he's tired of painting the fighting had already stopped, and I would think that child Verso would be aware of that, but still he said he was tired. It seems at that point he had lost the joy of painting, so would it be ok to ask him to continue painting anyways? His original world that he created has already been very distorted, and you could even say that at that point it's not "his" canvas anymore.

It's a very interesting question.

Verso wasn't doing what he did for real Verso Soul to rest in peace, he did what he did cause he killed the love of his life and couldn't bare it, pure selfishness motivation, both ends are bittersweet, but i like to see him suffering in Maelle's ending and i think she did too, tbf at the end of the day he was trying to "kill" the "remaining" of her real brother soul.

I thought his main motivation was seeing his mother slowly dying? That's why we get that scene of him being all emotional after seeing the state Aline was in, and that seems to give him the conviction to try and have child Verso stop painting. My interpretation was he didn't want Maelle to end up the same way; not being able to let go of Verso and accepting the fact that he's gone. It's not like he asks her to stop painting; he just specifically wanted this canvas to be erased, because it was preventing Aline and Maelle from getting over his death.

I really don't think his main motivation to die was Julie; seeing as Maelle could just bring her back. He even has dialogue with Sciel at the camp where she asks him who he'd like brought back, and he basically says Julie, and how he'd like to explain why he did the things he did.

I could be missing something of course, but let me know your thoughts!

 

[Ridicululzz]

That's because she doesn't really see the paintings as real or care about their feelings\thoughts. It's shown several times in the story. When she killed fake Verso's sister she didn't even think of letting him say goodbye or even have a say in it. She repainted over Verso even though he begged her not to, she didn't care how he felt about it.

She's more like Clea than she thinks! lol

I think this is also a very interesting point to touch on though, because the game itself just seemed to gloss over it – how "real" is the painted world to the painters themselves, and how do the people inside the canvas feel about it? We know that Clea and Renoir seem to have no problem with trying to erase the world, and then we have Aline on the other side of the spectrum. I would say that Maelle is on Aline's side of things here, but some of her actions towards the end make it seem like she just wants the world to pander to her; no matter how the others feel.

It also felt very strange to me when Maelle did the big reveal of how they're all inside a painting that there's no real reaction. I guess Verso already knew, but Sciel and Lune sort of just roll with it – Lune only seems interested on how the other side of the world looks like. Personally I'd be questioning everything if I found out I was in a painting lol