To an outside observer (the player being asked to make the decision), why is the fate of a part of OG Verso's soul more important than everyone living in the Canvas?
To an outside observer (the player being asked to make the decision), why is the fate of a part of OG Verso's soul more important than everyone living in the Canvas?
To an outside observer (the player being asked to make the decision), why is the fate of a part of OG Verso's soul more important than everyone living in the Canvas?
I know, I already asked myself when I made the choice, now I'm posing the question to people who choose Verso's ending...I mean... that is the question you have to ask yourself as you're asked to make that decision. You know what's at stake, and the game is asking you, the player, what is more important to you. Not what is more important to Maelle or Verso.
what is subtext
Because the people in the Canvas are existing to serve Maelle's fantasy and escapism, and their existance has been made to suffer because of Renoir and Aline's grief. The Canvas should have been burned the day Verso died, but Aline kept it alive at the costing of her own life, because she couldn't let go of Verso. Now the same thing will happen to Maelle, and make no mistake, the people of Lumiere are going to die anyway. Maelle is either going to stay in the painting until her life burns out and Renoir then burns the Canvas, or Renoir goes in to get Maelle, finds a far more mentally broken daughter, pulls her out and burns the Canvas anyway.
That's key to understand. The Canvas WILL die eventually and the people are on borrowed time. The question is do you prolong the Dessendre's grief, or do you rip the cord and make them finally face their grief and pave the way to them finally healing?
I would argue that players who chose the Maelle ending did not pay attention to all of the lessons the game tries to teach you about how destructive Grief can be.
'They'll die eventually anyway' is not typically considered a valid excuse to murder people, but it is at least an answer. Some people in the canvas appear to be suffering, but it is by no means all of them.Because the people in the Canvas are existing to serve Maelle's fantasy and escapism, and their existance has been made to suffer because of Renoir and Aline's grief. The Canvas should have been burned the day Verso died, but Aline kept it alive at the costing of her own life, because she couldn't let go of Verso. Now the same thing will happen to Maelle, and make no mistake, the people of Lumiere are going to die anyway. Maelle is either going to stay in the painting until her life burns out and Renoir then burns the Canvas, or Renoir goes in to get Maelle, finds a far more mentally broken daughter, pulls her out and burns the Canvas anyway.
That's key to understand. The Canvas WILL die eventually and the people are on borrowed time. The question is do you prolong the Dessendre's grief, or do you rip the cord and make them finally face their grief and pave the way to them finally healing?
I would argue that players who chose the Maelle ending did not pay attention to all of the lessons the game tries to teach you about how destructive Grief can be.
They existed way before Alicia jumped into the painting.
'They'll die eventually anyway' is not typically considered a valid excuse to murder people, but it is at least an answer. Some people in the canvas appear to be suffering, but it is by no means all of them.
I understand what the game is saying about facing the grief or trying to escape from it, but it's how people are so easily getting from there to 'therefore killing everyone in the Canvas is the right option' that I'm not quite following their reasoning on.
If the only considerations were 'should the OG family continue to take the blue pill (escape the grief / bad life outside of the canvas) or red pill (face it)' I would agree with the latter and I think that would quite obviously be the better option. This would be the scenario if eg. the Canvas was portrayed as being an imaginary world full of imaginary people, but it isn't.
I think burning the Canvas stopped being a morally acceptable option as soon as they brought (what I consider to be) non-imaginary people into existence to inhabit it. Much like if God (assume God exists) decided to destroy our world (or the Dessendre's world) just because it had become inconvenient for whatever reason - he could do it, but I would consider it a morally bad thing to do.
Yes, but in Maelle's ending they were repainted and are then existing to serve her fantasy. We also don't know to what extent their will is their own and whether or not they are they exact same people who died before, or just copies. The fact that Verso begged her that he doesn't want this life, and then was up on that stage seemingly against his will in order to play the piano and "perform" for Maelle, suggests that Maelle is willing to use and control people to continue enabling her escapism.
It's worth noting that the Maelle you see in the climax/ending is not the same Maelle throughout the game. By the finale she is consumed by her pursuit of preserving the Canvas, so she doesn't have to go back to reality.
I'm not saying it is a valid excuse to "murder" people, but these are the circumstances the story has presented. And let's be fair here, the humans of Lumiere were already dead in Act 3, with the exception of the Party. It was a question of whether or not to bring them back.
If Renoir doesn't burn the painting, Clea eventually probably would. Especially if the Canvas consumes Maelle, because then at that point the Dessendre's lost two family members.
I understand your perspective on this, and I think it opens up a conversation about whether or not Painters and Writers should plays gods and create sentient life to begin with. We don't know the exact circumstances why Painters and Writers are at war, but this could be part of it.
Painted Verso making the decision is neither the original Verso or even the equivalent of a clone of the original Verso, so I think any claim to ownership of the Canvas he might have compared to anyone else is quite tenuous. Not that I think even if we could establish an 'owner' it would give that person the right to murder everyone in it.It's technically his painting, so he should get the deciding vote.
'They'll die eventually anyway' is not typically considered a valid excuse to murder people, but it is at least an answer. Some people in the canvas appear to be suffering, but it is by no means all of them.
I understand what the game is saying about facing the grief or trying to escape from it, but it's how people are so easily getting from there to 'therefore killing everyone in the Canvas is the right option' that I'm not quite following their reasoning on.
If the only considerations were 'should the OG family continue to take the blue pill (escape the grief / bad life outside of the canvas) or red pill (face it)' I would agree with the latter and I think that would quite obviously be the better option. This would be the scenario if eg. the Canvas was portrayed as being an imaginary world full of imaginary people, but it isn't.
I think burning the Canvas stopped being a morally acceptable option as soon as they brought (what I consider to be) non-imaginary people into existence to inhabit it. Much like if God (assume God exists) decided to destroy our world (or the Dessendre's world) just because it had become inconvenient for whatever reason - he could do it, but I would consider it a morally bad thing to do.
This is precisely why I think there shouldn't be a bad/good ending setting for Ex33.
Maelle's ending may be selfish, but Verso's ending also has a selfish motive behind his choice. (In his ending,) He didn't end the canvas' world to help Maelle and her family to overcome the grief for the real Verso's death. No. He ended the world because he wanted to die, and he didn't wanted to live a life based on a lie, and for that, he sacrificed everybody else inside the canvas world.
Maelle while being selfish, she saw whose people not as ginea pigs or sacrificial lambs like her family saw, but as better friends and family to her, and the only reality. (She lived for 16 year inside the canvas, and for her, those friends were always present and saw her as a precious individual, while her parents were not always for her, immersed in their paintings for most of their lives, and saw her as weak element inside the family (as a painter, and later guilty for her talented brother death).
She was reborn in that world, and for her those people had a meaning and a lives to live, and not to be killed on a whim by her parents. And for that she sacrified Verso's individuality to restore the world and friends that she lost...
The only way to consider the Verso ending the 'good' choice is if you don't consider the denizens of the Canvas to be 'real'. Otherwise what may well be 'good' for the OG family is coming at the cost of a genocide, and you know that at the time of making the choice.
I don't think the Canvas can strictly be considered a 'fantasy' world. The OG family are effectively gods visiting a world of their own creation, but it is still portrayed as being a real world with real people in it, not merely an imaginary world with imaginary people.
The game is essentially asking the same questions as Blade Runner: can a created person ever be considered a real person, with the same rights as a real person, or are they always 'less than' real and therefore disposable / less worthy of consideration?
Maelle and Verso both take a different position on that, but both of them are having their position influenced to an unknown degree by their own selfish reasons too.
Painted Verso feels that way, sure, at least he does sometimes like at the end of the game. I don't think that means he's right or that he gets to decide for everyone else.Yeah accept the created person is telling the real person he isn't real and that the fantasy must be destroyed
its like a book, a book isnt real world, is a fantasy, the difference is that you can enter this fantasy painting and interact with it, but that dosnt make it real, even Verso acknowledges that its a make believe world.Painted Verso feels that way, sure, at least he does sometimes like at the end of the game. I don't think that means he's right or that he gets to decide for everyone else.
In fact if he isn't real then we probably shouldn't assign any weight to anything he 'thinks' or 'feels' anyway. I would say that if he -as a distinct entity- is genuinely thinking and feeling then he is by definition 'real'.
I don't consider the Canvas to be a 'fantasy'. It's a world they created and inhabited with people, and which they assumed a duty of care for in the process.
I disagree that it's like that. The game gives no indication that the people in the Canvas are only fake automatons with no real lives of their own.its like a book, a book isnt real world, is a fantasy, the difference is that you can enter this fantasy painting and interact with it, but that dosnt make it real, even Verso acknowledges that its a make believe world.
Probably would go Maelle route myself. I couldn't imagine living a life inside a living corpse. Deformed face and eye maybe but the damage to the nervous system meaning limited body function and not being able to speak.But I wouldn't throw Maelle's ending under the bus, if you were put in that specific situation what would you actually do? Just let everything be destroyed? I'm doubtful.
its like a book, a book isnt real world, is a fantasy, the difference is that you can enter this fantasy painting and interact with it, but that dosnt make it real, even Verso acknowledges that its a make believe world.
I don't think Maelle could've offered him the choice even if she wanted. I interpreted the canvas as being tied to the fate of (painted) Verso, and vice versa. One cannot exist with the other. After all, (real) Verso put a part of his soul into the painting (as Renoir said, every artist put a bit of themselves in their creation), and despite dying in the real-world, his painted counterpart continues to exist. Immortal, forever damned to roam. He's literally unable to die, unless he's unpainted by child Verso. And when that happens, the entire canvas dies with him, as we see in one ending. That's why, in order for the painted world to keep existing, Maelle is forced to keep him alive by pretty much making a puppet out of him, as we see in the other ending.Painted Verso making the decision is neither the original Verso or even the equivalent of a clone of the original Verso, so I think any claim to ownership of the Canvas he might have compared to anyone else is quite tenuous. Not that I think even if we could establish an 'owner' it would give that person the right to murder everyone in it.
Painted Verso (like the rest of the Painted Family) is Aline's grief-stricken interpretation, which is probably why they are all so inclined toward unhappiness compared to the other Painted denizens of the Canvas.
Maelle should have offered him the same delete option she extends to Alicia though, eventually, but only if he becomes consistent in that desire which is not really shown to be the case throughout the game.
when i say that is not real its from the perspective of the game world, for those who live inside the paint of course its a real world, but for those who created its not, now looking as an spectator for 2/3 of the game we thought it was a real world since we knew nothing about it, once we discover that the world is indeed fake we dont care, cause we are way to attached with the characters and we want them to live happy lifes.We have 2/3 of the game that shows us that entities in the canvas are as real as it gets, they get full spectrum of emotions and free will. Most of them were born in this world in the same way as "real" humans reproduce. Verso and entire painted family are different, they were created by Aline with character features of her family members "painted" into them, they have free will but they also have knowledge that they are "fake" - that would fuck up most people I imagine.
This isn't VR, painters have god like powers - then can create entire new worlds with sapient beings inside them. Just like with our God, they can just observe (what God does currently), live inside their creation (Jesus) or punish those living there (flood etc.) or even destroy it entirely (maybe what will happen to us in the future).
Like I said in my earlier post, ability like this should be banned in real life. Writers probably are very similar but they use other methods to create.
Clair Obscur vs. Alan Wake sequel?
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I don't think Maelle could've offered him the choice even if she wanted. I interpreted the canvas as being tied to the fate of (painted) Verso, and vice versa. One cannot exist with the other. After all, (real) Verso put a part of his soul into the painting (as Renoir said, every artist put a bit of themselves in their creation), and despite dying in the real-world, his painted counterpart continues to exist. Immortal, forever damned to roam. He's literally unable to die, unless he's unpainted by child Verso. And when that happens, the entire canvas dies with him, as we see in one ending. That's why, in order for the painted world to keep existing, Maelle is forced to keep him alive by pretty much making a puppet out of him, as we see in the other ending.
I believe it's tied to the fate of the remnant of OG Verso's soul (little boy Verso, the original Painter of the Canvas), but not tied to Painted Verso. The Canvas predates Painted Verso being painted into existence by Aline.I don't think Maelle could've offered him the choice even if she wanted. I interpreted the canvas as being tied to the fate of (painted) Verso, and vice versa. One cannot exist with the other. After all, (real) Verso put a part of his soul into the painting (as Renoir said, every artist put a bit of themselves in their creation), and despite dying in the real-world, his painted counterpart continues to exist. Immortal, forever damned to roam. He's literally unable to die, unless he's unpainted by child Verso. And when that happens, the entire canvas dies with him, as we see in one ending. That's why, in order for the painted world to keep existing, Maelle is forced to keep him alive by pretty much making a puppet out of him, as we see in the other ending.
We discover that it's created, not that it's fake.we discover that the world is indeed fake
from the perspective of the game there is a real REAL world where the Effiel Tower isnt bended and there is the painted world that is fake, you may not agree with me, but that ll not change the fact that from the perspective of that world, the painted Lumiere is "fake".We discover that it's created, not that it's fake.
I don't agree with you and I think you are using 'fake' inappropriately. Something being created doesn't make it fake. Does God (assume God exists) consider our world to be fake?from the perspective of the game there is a real REAL world where the Effiel Tower isnt bended and there is the painted world that is fake, you may not agree with me, but that ll not change the fact that from the perspective of that world, the painted Lumiere is "fake".
for example, lets pretend that we already have the technology to create something like Westworld for example, its that fake or real ?I don't agree with you and I think you are using 'fake' inappropriately. Something being created doesn't make it fake. Does God (assume God exists) consider our world to be fake?
I think if the people in the 'Painters vs Writers' world perceive the Canvas world to not be real just because it is created (and they may well view it that way, or opinions may be split), they are also wrong (at least based on how the game portrays that world).
If the created inhabitants are sentient and the world you created imposes real limitations upon them then I would consider it a real world you have created, yes. How would this be different to God (assume he exists) creating our world?for example, lets pretend that we already have the technology to create something like Westworld for example, its that fake or real ?
what tell us the difference in E33 world build is cause we have a metric of comparison, if we didn't so painted Lumiere would be real as real can get, but we have the real Lumiere that follows the same systems and logics of our actually real world ( the one we a living in right now ), so the painted Lumiere is just a stroke of imagination from some boy and thats where perspective kicks in.If the created inhabitants are sentient and the world you created imposes real limitations upon them then I would consider it a real world you have created, yes. How would this be different to God (assume he exists) creating our world?
I don't agree with you that 'real' vs 'not real' should be defined by perspective (in the sense of where someone is looking from), though people may ofc have different perspectives on what defines 'real'.
Why would immortality (not even really immortality in this case) define somebody as 'not real' or the world they inhabit as 'not real'? It may suggest a different set of rules between one world and the other, but I don't think it tells us they aren't real.
Can someone explain me how things in this universe work? Real Verso was 27, there was a "fire" (no traces of it in the Manor) but somehow part of his soul trapped in the canvas, where he's somehow a young boy and his place in the canvas is different from the others - some kind of a layer which looks like a limbo, and where this "boy" is painting on another canvas which is where Lumier located?The Canvas should have been burned the day Verso died, but Aline kept it alive at the costing of her own life, because she couldn't let go of Verso.
Please, no.Alan Wake
Real verso died at 26/27 in a fire started by the writers some antagonist faction that opposes the painters. When you wake up as Alicia/Maelle in the end of act 2 there are traces of the fire in the Manor. ( real world )Can someone explain me how things in this universe work? Real Verso was 27, there was a "fire" (no traces of it in the Manor) but somehow part of his soul trapped in the canvas, where he's somehow a young boy and his place in the canvas is different from the others - some kind of a layer which looks like a limbo, and where this "boy" is painting on another canvas which is where Lumier located?
Please, no.
Yes, but it means that every work has a part of the creator's soul. So, after his death you need to destroy all of them?When someone creates something, there is a common saying that people pour their soul into their work
what tell us the difference in E33 world build is cause we have a metric of comparison, if we didn't so painted Lumiere would be real as real can get, but we have the real Lumiere that follows the same systems and logics of our actually real world ( the one we a living in right now ), so the painted Lumiere is just a stroke of imagination from some boy and thats where perspective kicks in.
Well, we ll not agree in this matter and that is clear as the real sky above my head.
From my understanding, no, not at all. They didn't even need to destroy that piece. The problem was that it was his only work, and Aline went crazy when he died. To save his wife, Renoir concluded that destroying the painting was the only way because she would prefer to die inside the canvas rather than deal with her grief in the real world. You can see this at the end, Maelle hid the canvas before entering and Aline found it as soon as she was cast out of it and entered again.Yes, but it means that every work has a part of the creator's soul. So, after his death you need to destroy all of them?
City of Lumiere its just a way to call Paris as long as i know but a French person can correct me, yeah, but aside from that God like power they die just like regular humans and need regular ways to kill human too, like burning someone house.Even better, it's not Lumiere but plain old Paris (it can be seen when you try to leave manor). But it's not exactly our world, we have painters and writers that have magic (even god like) powers.
I think he got tired because of all the sadness and fighting his real family brought to the canvas.I chose Verso, and I'm glad I did. I watched the Maelle ending on YouTube, and everything just seemed off in that ending; from the color tones used, and of course the close-up of her face showing that she's succumbing to the same conditions as her mother.
I would say that an ideal third ending would be if the canvas was continued to allowed to exist, but it seems like the actual soul of Verso that's keeping the world together doesn't want to paint anymore, and if he stops painting the world ceases to exist.
I just had this thought, but maybe it's some sort of allegory to live service games lol
Should you ( as the dev ) continue to support your live service game if you just don't really want to work on it anymore, because there are people who still enjoy it?
I think he got tired because of all the sadness and fighting his real family brought to the canvas.
Verso wasn't doing what he did for real Verso Souls to rest in peace, he did what he did cause he killed the love of his life and could bare it, pure selfishness motivation, both ends are bittersweet, but i like to see him suffering in Maelle's ending and i think she did too, tbf at the end of the day he was trying to "kill" the "remaining" of her real brother soul.
and thats why i think it was way out of character for her not even mentioning bringing Gustave back once she recovered her memories and powers, also she was too soft at fake Verso once she discovered that he let Renoir kill Gustave.Aline was obessed with that painting, it's the last remain of her sons soul. Alice on the other hand couldn't let go because the was "fixed" inside, she could talk, see correctly and didn't have brutal scars all over her face. She belived that her life outside of canvas wasn't worth living... To be honest early 20th century wasn't a great time for people like her.
Other than that, she REALLY lived inside this painting, she was born and raised there - spend 16 years inside, she was part of that world.
Painted Alice scenes are a bit disturbing, mother created her with all the issues real Alice have, she was really envious when she saw Maelle...
This game is amazing on so many levels, top tier story.
Regardless of real fake Verso's motivation he was still doing the right thing. The real Verso sacrificed his life for his sister. He would hate to know that the only thing he did was end up forcing his sister to kill herself as well as his mother in his last painting. Even the last remaining piece of Verso's soul wanted to stop painting. It never gives you a reason why it just says it doesn't want to do it anymore. I would find it more plausible it wanted to stop painting so it wouldn't kill his mother and sister.I think he got tired because of all the sadness and fighting his real family brought to the canvas.
Verso wasn't doing what he did for real Verso Soul to rest in peace, he did what he did cause he killed the love of his life and couldn't bare it, pure selfishness motivation, both ends are bittersweet, but i like to see him suffering in Maelle's ending and i think she did too, tbf at the end of the day he was trying to "kill" the "remaining" of her real brother soul.
and thats why i think it was way out of character for her not even mentioning bringing Gustave back once she recovered her memories and powers, also she was too soft at fake Verso once she discovered that he let Renoir kill Gustave.
I think that's a plausible way of looking why he was tired of painting.I think he got tired because of all the sadness and fighting his real family brought to the canvas.
I thought his main motivation was seeing his mother slowly dying? That's why we get that scene of him being all emotional after seeing the state Aline was in, and that seems to give him the conviction to try and have child Verso stop painting. My interpretation was he didn't want Maelle to end up the same way; not being able to let go of Verso and accepting the fact that he's gone. It's not like he asks her to stop painting; he just specifically wanted this canvas to be erased, because it was preventing Aline and Maelle from getting over his death.Verso wasn't doing what he did for real Verso Soul to rest in peace, he did what he did cause he killed the love of his life and couldn't bare it, pure selfishness motivation, both ends are bittersweet, but i like to see him suffering in Maelle's ending and i think she did too, tbf at the end of the day he was trying to "kill" the "remaining" of her real brother soul.
She's more like Clea than she thinks! lolThat's because she doesn't really see the paintings as real or care about their feelings\thoughts. It's shown several times in the story. When she killed fake Verso's sister she didn't even think of letting him say goodbye or even have a say in it. She repainted over Verso even though he begged her not to, she didn't care how he felt about it.