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[Foxy Fox 39]

how is this justified again

Do I have to say it?

 

[Zaku]

Snip

Not even touching that with a barge-pole.

You're the one who brought up that this was racially motivated in the first place, without any evidence outside of "It's a white cop".

Per tactical doctrine, he acted right. If he was secretly a KKK member looking to shoot up someone with too much melanin in their skin, I'll be right there beside you condemning his actions as being racist and sick.

I never even said hip-hop was "the problem", but that it's contributing to make a solution where the black community can freely trust the police further off than it should be, because repeated studies have shown that pop culture shapes the populace in every society on the planet.

There's an entire industry dedicated to making black artists look "hard" and "street", and people buy that shit up by the millions.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Do I have to say it?

go for it!

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

It was weird that the 911 operator kept asking "is he black or white" like those were the only two options

 

[m_shortpants]

It was a dumb move to pull out the gun, almost unbelievable.

Hopefully the kid recovers so we can get his side of the story.

If the police story is true then it would be completely justified.

 

[Coffee Dog]

It's depressing that the tone of a lot of the posts in here are "That 12 year old boy should have known better how violent and reactionary the police are"

 

[SapientWolf]

Yes. If the threat is only unrealized potential, lethal force is not the response that should be given. Cops should not be judge jury and executioners.

And yes, it does put the cops at risk. THAT'S THEIR JOB.

The problem is that waiting to be shot at before returning fire wouldn't just put cops at risk. It would put the public at risk. If they are called to handle a situation, and through inaction get themselves and bystanders shot, then they have also failed at their job.

It was a life or death decision, but if there was an error it was letting the situation turn into a life or death decision. If they were in a safer position there might have been more time for things to resolve themselves. But under the assumption that the gun was real, this might have been the correct call. If the order is to put your hands up and the reaction is to draw a firearm then that is a threat in and of itself. Unfortunately, this is a case where the wrong decision would have had the better outcome. That's why it's a tragedy.

And this is from a completely different article, but I thought it was interesting and relevant.

Six years earlier, as a rookie, Fuhr had been involved in another showdown, with a suspect who was brandishing a rifle or a shotgun. Fuhr ordered him to drop the gun. The man swung around with the gun over his head. Fuhr made a split-second decision and concluded that the man was not going to shoot. So Fuhr did not shoot. The man dropped the gun and was arrested.

Today, Fuhr thinks he was wrong. “As he turned towards me, I should have shot him,” he said. “I made the incorrect decision, looking back on it.”

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

It was a dumb move to pull out the gun, almost unbelievable.

Hopefully the kid recovers so we can get his side of the story.

If the police story is true then it would be completely justified.

He's dead.

Guess an OP update is out of the question

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Not even touching that with a barge-pole.

You're the one who brought up that this was racially motivated in the first place, without any evidence outside of "It's a white cop".

Per tactical doctrine, he acted right. If he was secretly a KKK member looking to shoot up someone with too much melanin in their skin, I'll be right there beside you condemning his actions as being racist and sick.

I never even said hip-hop was "the problem", but that it's contributing to make a solution where the black community can freely trust the police further off than it should be, because repeated studies have shown that pop culture shapes the populace in every society on the planet.

There's an entire industry dedicated to making black artists look "hard" and "street", and people buy that shit up by the millions.

You're all over the place. Also I never said the cop was racist. I honestly don't think the cop is racist either. This entire time I've been arguing with you not only have you misunderstood everything I've said but you've also shown an amazing ability to consistently talk from your behind about matters that you clearly know nothing of.

Rap and Hip hop are not the same thing. Rap artists being "hard" and "street" is not causing the problem of blacks being targeted by the government and it never was. History has shown us that. It's offensive to even bring it up in this thread.

 

[Infinite]

It was a dumb move to pull out the gun, almost unbelievable.

Hopefully the kid recovers so we can get his side of the story.

If the police story is true then it would be completely justified.

The kid died

 

[Enzom21]

Not even touching that with a barge-pole.

You're the one who brought up that this was racially motivated in the first place, without any evidence outside of "It's a white cop".

Per tactical doctrine, he acted right. If he was secretly a KKK member looking to shoot up someone with too much melanin in their skin, I'll be right there beside you condemning his actions as being racist and sick.

I never even said hip-hop was "the problem", but that it's contributing to make a solution where the black community can freely trust the police further off than it should be, because repeated studies have shown that pop culture shapes the populace in every society on the planet.

There's an entire industry dedicated to making black artists look "hard" and "street", and people buy that shit up by the millions.

So what genre of music contributes to white people and their distrust of the police? Because there are plenty of white people who hate cops and I doubt they've received the same treatment as black people.

 

[Rembrandt]

Not even touching that with a barge-pole.

You're the one who brought up that this was racially motivated in the first place, without any evidence outside of "It's a white cop".

Per tactical doctrine, he acted right. If he was secretly a KKK member looking to shoot up someone with too much melanin in their skin, I'll be right there beside you condemning his actions as being racist and sick.

I never even said hip-hop was "the problem", but that it's contributing to make a solution where the black community can freely trust the police further off than it should be, because repeated studies have shown that pop culture shapes the populace in every society on the planet.

There's an entire industry dedicated to making black artists look "hard" and "street", and people buy that shit up by the millions.

The issue is why bring that up like these stories aren't constant enough to be a bigger reason for us not to trust the police than any song ever made or why bring up songs like real life experiences aren't enough to make us not trust the police? You brought up hip-hop for whatever reason and you can deny it all you want, but you made it seem like a problem. Like several others have told you, it's an outlet for those experiences. Like others have told you, not all black people listen to rap music. Some of the biggest rap artists out right now are the opposite of street/hood.

 

[Sophia]

It's depressing that the tone of a lot of the posts in here are "That 12 year old boy should have known better how violent and reactionary the police are"

It's definitely a tragedy. One that could have been avoided. But trying to turn it into an Ad hominem against the police or fellow posters is pointless. As far as we know with the current evidence, the cops did exactly as they are trained to do with the information they had.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

It's depressing that the tone of a lot of the posts in here are "That 12 year old boy should have known better how violent and reactionary the police are"

People — Including Cops — See Black Kids as Less Innocent and Less Young Than White Kids

We'll start with that last bit of data. The graph at right shows the number of use of force incidents by officers in the study (though a small majority of officers had never used force). "[T]he implicit dehumanization of Blacks," the study's authors write, "was a significant predictor of racial disparities in the use of force against children" — though they're clear to note that it is "plausible that negative interactions with Black children disproportionately produce implicit anti-Black dehumanization."

The correlation between dehumanization and use of force becomes more significant when you consider that black boys are routinely estimated to be older than they are. The two graphs show the age estimates for the college students, left, and police participants in the study.

In 2012, data from the Department of Education revealed that black students were far more likely than white students to face harsh discipline following infractions at school than student of other races. That sort of uneven system of discipline prompted the Obama administration to call for zero-tolerance policies to be dropped. If this study is any guide — and it's only one study, of course — the tendency to give white kids the presumption of innocence and youth that isn't afforded to black students might be one of the reasons for that discrepancy.

http://www.thewire.com/politics/201...ss-innocent-and-less-young-white-kids/359026/

There's more interesting studies and articles that show people (even blacks to an extent) have pretty glaring biases against blacks.

edit: You should read the article. Its really short. But heres a nice little quote from there I thought was directly relevant to this thread:

"Our research found that black boys can be seen as responsible for their actions at an age when white boys still benefit from the assumption that children are essentially innocent."

 

[Effnine]

There's an entire industry dedicated to making black artists look "hard" and "street", and people buy that shit up by the millions.

Do you think videogames/movies cause violence too? What's the fucking difference?

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Do you think videogames/movies cause violence too? What's the fucking difference?

lol right. I cant even believe he said this.

 

[m_shortpants]

He's dead.

Guess an OP update is out of the question

The kid died

Oh. Well, I hope there's some way to corroborate the officer's story.

 

[Coffee Dog]

I agree. It IS depressing, but the problem isn't how the police responded (in this case, it was correct.)

The problem is that the police respond violently in many cases where they SHOULDN'T, and THIS case, one that seems justified (at least, for now), has the undertones of "the police messed up." No. The police responded exactly how the police should be responding to someone who is armed, and when told to put their hands up, instead reaches for the weapon. (***disclaimer: I want to make it clear at least, based on these facts we have now.)

In a vacuum, of course, no one under 18 would ever be a malicious threat/danger, and there would never be any justification of ever shooting a minor, but if we're going to paint that narrative we might as well say all people ought to be good and there should never be a need for a police force.

Who is saying that? Quit strawmanning.

Nobody is saying children can't be criminals, but frankly when a child (especially one who is by all accounts nonthreatening physcially and verbally) is confronted by a policeman, the officer should remember that they are dealing with a dumb child who is probably doing some dumb child shit.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

I agree. It IS depressing, but the problem isn't how the police responded (in this case, it was correct.)

The problem is that the police respond violently in many cases where they SHOULDN'T, and THIS case, one that seems justified (at least, for now), has the undertones of "the police messed up." No. The police responded exactly how the police should be responding to someone who is armed, and when told to put their hands up, instead reaches for the weapon. (***disclaimer: I want to make it clear at least, based on these facts we have now.)

In a vacuum, of course, no one under 18 would ever be a malicious threat/danger, and there would never be any justification of ever shooting a minor, but if we're going to paint that narrative we might as well say all people ought to be good and there should never be a need for a police force.

If you are at all sincere -- or any people in this thread I suggest you read this article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...stem-is-color-blind-black-people-really-dont/

But in our data many whites (about 60 percent) believed that blacks deserve to be imprisoned more frequently. They often based their explanations of racial discrepancies in the prisons on racial stereotypes: Blacks, they believed, are more inclined to commit crimes or just less likely to respect authority. To a considerable extent, therefore, African Americans attribute outcomes to procedural bias, while whites are more willing to attribute them to character flaws of blacks.

And then this one:

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/august/prison-black-laws-080614.html

Although African-Americans constitute only 12 percent of America's population, they represent 40 percent of the nation's prison inmates.

But informing the white public of this disproportionate incarceration rate may actually bolster support for the very policies that perpetuate the inequality, according to a study published in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science.

Stanford psychology researchers Rebecca Hetey and Jennifer Eberhardt found that when white people were told about these racial disparities, they reported being more afraid of crime and more likely to support the kinds of punitive policies that exacerbate the racial disparities.

 

[MoxManiac]

This doesn't sound racially motivated if the details in the story are correct. If a cop tells you to hold your hands up, and instead you reach for what could be construed as a real gun, you're going to get shot.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

This doesn't sound racially motivated if the details in the story are correct. If a cop tells you to hold your hands up, and instead you reach for what could be construed as a real gun, you're going to get shot.

Yeah. That 12 year old should have known better. Cops are just crazy shooting machines that don't know any better.

People — Including Cops — See Black Kids as Less Innocent and Less Young Than White Kids

"Our research found that black boys can be seen as responsible for their actions at an age when white boys still benefit from the assumption that children are essentially innocent."

http://www.thewire.com/politics/201...ss-innocent-and-less-young-white-kids/359026/

edit: I love bringing out the data because then everyone shuts up or says "Hey man, that applies to other stuff. Not this situation" ... but ironically that's said every time.

 

[Blood Diamonds]

This doesn't sound racially motivated if the details in the story are correct. If a cop tells you to hold your hands up, and instead you reach for what could be construed as a real gun, you're going to get shot.

he was 12
the piece of shit that shot him is a grown fucking man

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

he was 12
the piece of shit that shot him is a grown fucking man

Im telling you dude its sooo hard for people to feel empathy toward black people. They really have to stretch to see why this is so messed up. Kids dead and all everyone can say is "The kid should have known better".

 

[MoxManiac]

I don't think anyone is denying there is a real racial issue with police interactions, but this story isn't one of them.

Under these same circumstances, the kid would still have gotten shot if he was white.

If you want to finger blame, blame police procedure.

 

[Effnine]

I don't think anyone is denying there is a real racial issue with police interactions, but this story isn't one of them.

Under these same circumstances, the kid would still have gotten shot if he was white.

If you want to finger blame, blame police procedure.

How can you even say that? That's quite an assumption you're making ...

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

I don't think anyone is denying there is a real racial issue with police interactions, but this story isn't one of them.

Under these same circumstances, the kid would still have gotten shot if he was white.

If you want to finger blame, blame police procedure.

On average white people (including cops) view black children as less innocent and older than they really are and you're telling me it's not a racial issue? On average white people support harsher punishments for blacks than whites and this isn't a racial issue? Studies show that whites (and to a certain extent blacks) believe blacks feel less pain than whites and it's not a racial issue?

 

[Blood Diamonds]

Im telling you dude its sooo hard for people to feel empathy toward black people. They really have to stretch to see why this is so messed up. Kids dead and all everyone can say is "The kid should have known better".

How fucked up do you have to be to blame the kid for this? Like honestly? The fuck is wrong with some people.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

Under these same circumstances, the kid would still have gotten shot if he was white.

Yeah. Ok.

 

[Koomaster]

How can you even say that? That's quite an assumption you're making ...

If anyone, no matter race/gender/age/etc. pointed that gun at me - I would reasonably fear for my life and think that I'm about to get shot. The only color I see in this scenario is the gun and that's enough to take necessary steps to defend my life.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

How fucked up do you have to be to blame the kid for this? Like honestly? The fuck is wrong with some people.

Again. They are thinking about the kid like an object instead of a subject. They aren't thinking "Hey kids are dumb, kids are confused, the kid probably didn't know what was going on, the kid was probably scared (he had a gun pointed at him and an adult shouting at him)

They aren't putting themselves in his shoes (nor do they have to). People in this thread aren't thinking about this kid as a human who tragically lost his life over a pointless miscommunication that with a few seconds of due diligence could have been sorted. They only think about the white cop who was afraid for his life

Here's a thought experiment. Given the situation and all the objective facts and how people say he was following procedure, how many would still say that if say, the kid were a white girl. Objectively everything is the same. Do you still think he would have shot her? And if she was killed would you all say she should have known better and he was just following procedure?

 

[MoxManiac]

On average white people (including cops) view black children as less innocent and older than they really are and you're telling me it's not a racial issue? On average white people support harsher punishments for blacks than whites and this isn't a racial issue? Studies show that whites (and to a certain extent blacks) believe blacks feel less pain than whites and it's not a racial issue?

Look Foxy, I understand. I'm not trying to argue against the issues your presenting.

What I'm saying is, a cop will shoot ANYBODY that has what could potentially be a real gun and is reaching for it after being instructed to hold their hands up, regardless of whether they are 12, 30 or 90.

 

[Infinite]

Was he really following procedure or are people just talking out of their asses? My uncle who is the cop said he wouldn't have shot the kid, he didn't mention anything about procedure justifying his decision otherwise. Fuck that.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

Although no weapon was found on Taylor, Cruz was cleared of wrongdoing in the case Tuesday. Prosecutor Slim Gill said that the shooting was justified because Cruz thought Taylor had a weapon and that he would use it against him.Although no weapon was found on Taylor, Cruz was cleared of wrongdoing in the case Tuesday. Prosecutor Slim Gill said that the shooting was justified because Cruz thought Taylor had a weapon and that he would use it against him.

How this doesn't look like a license to kill to anyone is beyond me. "Why'd you kill em?" they'll ask. "I was scurred. I thought he had a weapon." the cop will lie.

Just ugh. Doesn't absolute power corrupt, absolutely. Every time you let someone get away with murder, it'll just be that much easier next time. Y'all can go ahead and assume that cop is missing sleep right now. I doubt it. He's secure in the knowledge that no one is going to do anything to him because he "feared for his safety." Bullshit.

 

[Effnine]

I'm only linking articles for you to illustrate some comparative ones, and these two people were both older by about five years.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/01/dillon-taylor-shooting-justified_n_5912976.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ps-front-door-family-lawyer-article-1.1619842

The first case, especially. It's the most similar in terms of actions, but yes-- the police are legally allowed to act how they do. Huffington is pretty liberal, too, not that it matters, but as a note of opinion.

Of course all people of any race are at risk of being shot ... I never said they weren't and I never said police policy wasn't an issue ...

I was responding more to the absolute statement that if the kid were white he would have been shot too ... we don't know that, nobody does ... I'm willing to bet there are instances every day where cops in the suburbs or other mostly-white areas deal with this kind of situation and nobody is shot ...

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Look Foxy, I understand. I'm not trying to argue against the issues your presenting.

What I'm saying is, a cop will shoot ANYBODY that has what could potentially be a real gun and is reaching for it after being instructed to hold their hands up, regardless of whether they are 12, 30 or 90.

Again. They are thinking about the kid like an object instead of a subject. They aren't thinking "Hey kids are dumb, kids are confused, the kid probably didn't know what was going on, the kid was probably scared (he had a gun pointed at him and an adult shouting at him)

They aren't putting themselves in his shoes (nor do they have to). People in this thread aren't thinking about this kid as a human who tragically lost his life over a pointless miscommunication that with a few seconds of due diligence could have been sorted. They only think about the white cop who was afraid for his life

Here's a thought experiment. Given the situation and all the objective facts and how people say he was following procedure, how many would still say it was justified if say, the kid were a white girl. Objectively everything is the same. Do you still think he would have shot her? And if she was killed would you all say she should have known better and he was just following procedure?

...

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Was he really following procedure or are people just talking out of their asses? My uncle who is the cop said he wouldn't have shot the kid, he didn't mention anything about procedure justifying his decision otherwise. Fuck that.

Right. Shooting a 12 year old is a big deal. ITT people who are maniacs

edit: dbl post

 

[MoxManiac]

Yes, I do think he would have shot her.

Jesus, I'm not even trying to defend police procedure! All I've been trying to state is that cops will not hesitate to fire on someone who they perceive to be reaching for a gun.

 

[Effnine]

The only reason why I even linked that article is to illustrate that yes, police do tend to react very defensively in situations that involve armed suspects, regardless of color. Whether they should or should not, is a different question, but I would blame the gun right laws in America more for the reactiveness of the police, not that the police don't have many problems themselves.

I agree ... the gun laws and associated gun culture is sickening and absolutely contributes to these type of situations ... too bad America won't ever do anything about it ...

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Okay, I'm not trying to argue about whether or not Taylor's death was justified... but in this case, with the 12 year old boy, the police received word that there was an armed person waving a gun around, and the police saw the boy tuck the gun in his pants. The gun that had the orange safety tip removed.

The police officer clearly believed that the boy had a real weapon.

The only reason why I even linked that article is to illustrate that yes, police do tend to react very defensively in situations that involve armed suspects, regardless of color. Whether they should or should not, is a different question, but I would blame the gun right laws in America more for the reactiveness of the police, not that the police don't have many problems themselves.

Right but the article is pointless because I could link to an article where police give every ounce of patience with a white person with a gun. For instance -- black guy shot in walmart for having a toy gun -- vs. white people walking around town with real guns and in stores with AR's to show off their 2nd amendment rights.

What matters is stats. I hate to say this again but the only person who has the stats and psychological studies to back their point of view is me. You do not. All you can say is "Perhaps it wasn't this time. Next

time maybe but not this time."

edit: made an amendment to the amendment.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

RAW VIDEO: Police Taser Man Wielding Gun

Apparently you can taser someone weilding a gun. Provided he isn't 12 and black.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Yes, I do think he would have shot her.

Jesus, I'm not even trying to defend police procedure! All I've been trying to state is that cops will not hesitate to fire on someone who they perceive to be reaching for a gun.

That's fine and I completely understand. I get that. But on the other hand if you really think some white cop would have unloaded a few clips into a 12 year old white girl you're full of it.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Was he really following procedure or are people just talking out of their asses? My uncle who is the cop said he wouldn't have shot the kid, he didn't mention anything about procedure justifying his decision otherwise. Fuck that.

Police have discretionary power as to whether or not to fire their weapons. There are criteria that need to be met in order to do so, but that's investigated after the fact. It's a Catch 22 for a situation like this one. There's a very short window of time in which to make the decision and there's no way to know if it was the right one until after it's made.

 

[Effnine]

For instance -- black guy shot in walmart for having a toy gun -- vs. white people walking around town with real guns and in stores with AR's to show off their 2nd amendment rights.

White guy walking around with his AR-15 ... was he shot? Nope ...

http://youtu.be/D1AVrkFcOwg

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

That's fine and I completely understand. I get that. But on the other hand if you really think some white cop would have unloaded a few clips into a 12 year old white girl you're full of it.

Do you think a white cop would have unloaded into a 12 year old black or hispanic girl?

 

[Blood Diamonds]

Yes, there's evidence that police are more likely to treat black people with violence and murder them, but,

 

[KHarvey16]

I don't understand the desire to pick single incidents out as if they say something meaningful about this situation. Reason is usually the first thing out the window in these discussions and it's frustrating to watch.

 

[ponpo]

Are there statistics saying deadly force by police targets blacks more than whites? I thought someone here posted an NYT article once saying these stats didn't exist.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Do you think a white cop would have unloaded into a 12 year old black or hispanic girl?

So no offense, as I know not everyone has the minority experience, but the fact that you asked this speaks volumes.

 

[Infinite]

Police have discretionary power as to whether or not to fire their weapons. There are criteria that need to be met in order to do so, but that's investigated after the fact. It's a Catch 22 for a situation like this one. There's a very short window of time in which to make the decision and there's no way to know if it was the right one until after it's made.

So basically the cop makes the call then an investigation happens to determine if the cop made the right one. I thought so. Still doesn't explain people itt auto assuming that the call he made was justified considering different cops would have made different decisions.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

The value of black lives is zero in this country to an overwhelming number of people living in it.

And some of you are tripping over yourselves to prove it.

I would say I hope you never have to experience what it's like to have someone stolen from you like that, but I imagine that the majority of you ever will, because you don't fit the description.

Some of the posts I've read in this thread have made me sick to my stomach. Shame on you and your justifications and apologist reasoning for this event.

Shame on you.