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COMICS!!! |OT| January 2017 This is the Dawning of the Age of Apocalypse
- Thread starter Messi
- Start date
LordOfLore
Banned
This is literally a comic cover:
Edit: Messi should be happy about this.
Try debating them. See how far you get. Didn't work the last time.
Edit: Messi should be happy about this.
LordOfLore
Banned
We aren't saying he's one of them. People joked that he and the guy who got punched and he defended share a last name.
my name is ed
Banned
What if Nick Spencer is related to Richard Spencer and that's why he's like oh no don't punch Nazis
One of the many worst things about Nick Spencer is how he thinks his stances are unassailable because he's self proclaimed as the most liberal person in comics
One of the many worst things about Nick Spencer is how he thinks his stances are unassailable because he's self proclaimed as the most liberal person in comics
Hydra Cap would make more sense if this is true.
Let's be clear: Nick Spencer is not a nazi. Like, that's not the argument being made, at least not by me. The argument is, rather, that his calls for civility when dealing with nazis are, at best, completely ineffective in actually dealing with the threat to society that nazis represent, and at worst, demonstrating a form of self-serving complacency. These observations are made because of Nick Spencer's recent statements, not just on Twitter, but also in his art, as Sam Wilson: Captain America #17, which deals with similar topics of fascist ideology met with violent resistance, demonstrates.
Durrzerker
Banned
While I wouldn't punch the dude myself, though I certainly have an overwhelming desire to, I'm also not gonna lose sleep over it.
It's a complex situation with no easy answer, which is generally true of any time words escalate to violence.
I think it's incorrect to say the one who escalates is always in the wrong, but there is an immense responsibility one takes on when they do so that I'm not sure most 'pro-punch' people are really aware of or willing to bear.
I dunno. In any case, I think getting mad at Nick Spencer for being anti-punch is a bit much. Being pro-punch is one thing, but being anti-anti-punch isn't the same.
There's a difference between complacency/enabling and conscientious objection, and it's one worth respecting. Even if you think the dude deserved the punch, I feel like you're treading dangerous ground by assuming the only reason someone could be anti-punch is because they don't care enough about the issue, or that they're a nazi sympathizer.
Don't generalize and simplify people, I guess is my point.
It's a complex situation with no easy answer, which is generally true of any time words escalate to violence.
I think it's incorrect to say the one who escalates is always in the wrong, but there is an immense responsibility one takes on when they do so that I'm not sure most 'pro-punch' people are really aware of or willing to bear.
I dunno. In any case, I think getting mad at Nick Spencer for being anti-punch is a bit much. Being pro-punch is one thing, but being anti-anti-punch isn't the same.
There's a difference between complacency/enabling and conscientious objection, and it's one worth respecting. Even if you think the dude deserved the punch, I feel like you're treading dangerous ground by assuming the only reason someone could be anti-punch is because they don't care enough about the issue, or that they're a nazi sympathizer.
Don't generalize and simplify people, I guess is my point.
Manmademan
Member
bears repeating.
From issue #18. Spencer has been very consistent that meeting a fascist system with violence head on is not something he endorses, nor does he consider it effective. Punching out Baron Zemo? Perfectly fine. Addressing a corrupt system? Takes other means.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Sucker punches suck. They are cheap and don't prove a point. Preaching about white superiority and punching down POC and ignoring POC's problems for YEARS is worse. You don't get no sympathy from me.
Durrzerker
Banned
Well, sure, but I don't think any of us are asking for Richard Spencer to get sympathy. Even Nick Spencer isn't asking for that.
"I don't sympathize with him at all" and "Still, violence isn't going to do anything productive or positive here" are not two mutually exclusive viewpoints. In fact, they're the ones I simultaneously hold. Richard Spencer is a terrible person. He 'deserved' that punch as much as anyone really can deserve a punch, the degree of which is arbitrary anyways.The line of when it's time to turn words to fists will never be clear-cut. I can acknowledge these ideas while still expressing concern that punching him is going to do more damage than help to the cause behind the punch.
Listen buddy. You should know that I hate how often Olivia munn is confused with Olivia Wilde. So many pictures mislabelled
no that's Kieron Gillen
I get them mixed up sometimes.
LordOfLore
Banned
Supergirl in Washington:
And because it's being posted non-stop on twitter:
And because it's being posted non-stop on twitter:
Riley said:
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I admit the punch doesn't help. What is helping is today's Women's March which is doing a lot of help today to drown out whatever Spencer was being interviewed for. So to me that punch was the icing on the cake. He's not important anymore and even if it gets worse, which I doubt it, his numbers will always be outnumbered cuz he is on the wrong side of history.
That's great. Good for her.
Durrzerker
Banned
I dunno about that, man. Calling bigots on the wrong side of a history is one reason we wound up with Trump as president. Time and again, I think people underestimate both their numbers and vigor. They are vast, they are dedicated, and they will in no way be any lesser in number ten, a hundred, or probably even a thousand years from now. It's important to stay vigilant and never assume progress will be a straight line. Bigotry being stamped out isn't an inevitability; it's next-to-impossible, actually, but what can be done is making it so overwhelmingly abhorred that it is forced to the shadows.
That's why I'm as reluctant to condemn the punch as condone it. It's complex, and there -is- a time when words aren't enough. I'm just not sure that was the time.
Agreed on the Women's March, though. There's no such thing as enough of or too much of that.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
We're talking about a Nazi though, not an ignorant white republican who can change through civil discussion.
I feel like I should be watching Supergirl.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
You should. First season is pretty shaky but season 2 has been great.
LordOfLore
Banned
They have a musical episode with the Music Meister coming up!
Durrzerker
Banned
That doesn't change my point in the slightest, though. Nazis will likely be alive and well a decade and possibly even a century from now, the same way they've survived just fine for the last eighty years. That's what makes it all the more important to not assume otherwise and consider the ripple effect that every move we make has. It's not about stamping out the ideology; that's just not gonna happen. It's about suppressing their influence and voice among the impressionable.
They - being the white supremacists - enjoy the luxury of being insulated from the consequences of their actions. They have an entire world's worth of bigots willing to make every excuse for them. We don't have that; not only are those in power generally indifferent or actively against our causes, but also, every day, it becomes more of a competition of who is liberal enough, who is moral enough, who is doing everything they can and who is complacent. It's constant judgment from people who should be on the same side.
The sad truth, as far as I can see it, is that the bigots are fuckin' lapping us when it comes to coordination and unity. And that's a big problem when we're trying to get a message out.
I dunno, maybe some of my own frustration is slipping in here, but I just feel like this isn't as clear-cut 'good guy punching evil nazi' as it's being painted.
First season shook me off it, couldn't get past episode 8ish.
The Spencer thing (Nick) bugs me, you are talking about a guy who is a white nationalist and is coping a lot of Nazi shit.
Saying punching him is bad is kinda fucked up when he wants to see everyone white again. Violence is only a last resort only that Rich Spencer is likely never gonna change his stance.
The punch while fun to see is one moral dilemma. Nick getting shit just adds to the fire he's already in.
Saying punching him is bad is kinda fucked up when he wants to see everyone white again. Violence is only a last resort only that Rich Spencer is likely never gonna change his stance.
The punch while fun to see is one moral dilemma. Nick getting shit just adds to the fire he's already in.
Brian Fellows
Pete Carroll Owns Me
Durrzerker
Banned
If you acknowledge he's never going to change his stance, then why punch him, though? That's where I find the problem, not out of some empathy for the man. It's moreso a concern for the fact that some people might be weighing the catharsis of giving him 'what he deserves' against the empowering effect hitting him will have on his fanbase and finding the former worth it.
I thought the CW shows were all on UK Netflix but seems they aren't anymore. I'll give it a look when I can find it.
Thanks for the warning. Now I'm definitely not going to watch it.
Haha not a fan of musical episodes either.
Emotions are high and a lot of people want to see the other side get hit.
R. Spencer is coming from a group who hates being called X when they kinda are but don't want to admit it and helped the election.
N. Spencer saw Dump coming and thinks punching Rich will led us nowhere but more violence.
No one is gonna sit and chat with the other side anymore, the damage is done.
Durrzerker
Banned
Sure, but I'm not interested in discussion between us and the supremacists. I'm not an advocate of the idea people like R. Spencer being able to change. Fuck 'em, frankly.
My problem is with the idea that N. Spencer deserves to be told shit like 'retire' because of his stance on the matter. It's left turning against left, and it's been our fatal flaw for too long.
As gross as it was to watch, did you see how quickly the right folded under Trump? Ted Cruz, Romney, Christie, Giuliani -- look how swiftly they got in line. It was gross and hypocritical of them, but that's always been their power; party first, above all else.
The left lacks that unity, and while it might be admirable from an ethical standpoint, there's too many hard lines being drawn in the sand. Too many people on our side think you have to agree on everything to agree on anything.
Not saying that's true of anyone in this thread, per se, but the twitter stuff shows it boldly.
Anyways, got us off comics too far for too long, sorry. When I post again it'll be comic stuff, heh.
Agreed, the left Civil War is what got us here and some need to shape up.
Meanwhile. how about that Gwenpool?
Poodlestrike
Banned
bears repeating.
From issue #18. Spencer has been very consistent that meeting a fascist system with violence head on is not something he endorses, nor does he consider it effective. Punching out Baron Zemo? Perfectly fine. Addressing a corrupt system? Takes other means.
Isn't this kind of arguing against yourself? The sum total of the difference between Baron Zemo (here standing in for Richard Spencer) and a facist system is that one of them is entrenched and the other one isn't. If you punch Spencer/Zemo before he gets inside, you can leave it at that. It's only if you let them go un-punched and get their hooks into society that they become malignant.
Nazis always take their first country civilly. Fascists start by winning the election. THen they do the rest. So, strike back first.
LordOfLore
Banned
Thanks for the warning. Now I'm definitely not going to watch it.
At least everyone on the Flash and Supergirl have experience from being in a band, another show with musical episodes or Glee.
Durrzerker
Banned
Yeah, you strike back by protesting, voting, and unifying to exorcise bigots from politics at the local and national level, not by hitting people.
Anyways, on topic of comics, Gwenpool was pretty good! Also, Marquez is such a good artist. Just finished Invincible Iron Man (2015) and just...whenever Marquez gets off a book, I get kinda sad. What gorgeous art.
echoshifting
Banned
I can't fault Nick Spencer too much for thinking sucker punching a fascist is bad. A lot of people seem to hold that view. I don't agree at all, but it makes sense in an era in which we have been taught that any violent retaliation is wrong.
What I do fault him for is his constant "I'm right you're wrong" attitude every time he hops on Twitter. How can a white writer who constantly approaches these issues in this manner, not from a perspective of seeking understanding, but rather a lecturer, a moral authority, write Sam Wilson? It makes me skeptical of everything he's doing.
I interpreted his jabs at "sjw" types a couple of issues ago pretty generously, but that's out the window now. I feel like I could be reading a lot of what he's doing with greater skepticism and now I feel inclined to do that.
That post with the Captain America cover, for fuck sake. That is the sum of the argument presented in that tweet: a fifty year old comic book cover. That is not a coherent argument. It's practically deranged.
What I do fault him for is his constant "I'm right you're wrong" attitude every time he hops on Twitter. How can a white writer who constantly approaches these issues in this manner, not from a perspective of seeking understanding, but rather a lecturer, a moral authority, write Sam Wilson? It makes me skeptical of everything he's doing.
I interpreted his jabs at "sjw" types a couple of issues ago pretty generously, but that's out the window now. I feel like I could be reading a lot of what he's doing with greater skepticism and now I feel inclined to do that.
That post with the Captain America cover, for fuck sake. That is the sum of the argument presented in that tweet: a fifty year old comic book cover. That is not a coherent argument. It's practically deranged.
I disagree with this. The books you're calling worthless are/were good imo.
Yup
Manmademan
Member
uh, no. The difference between the two is that Zemo is an independent actor running around with a terrorist organization actively killing people in violation of national and international law.
a fascist system (represented by the Americops) is inherently unfair and abusive, but was elected/put there by an elected body. It can be removed and corrected using nonviolent means.
you can punch out #1 all you want (in fact, nonviolent protest tends not to work on psychopaths), but using violence to solve #2 doesn't work.
And I thought I was pretty clear that R. Spencer is NOT equivalent to a Nazi or a war criminal, and Zemo is not an appropriate substitute. Despicable language is not a crime, and he has as much right to repeat filth as Obama does to make inspiring speeches. Trying to stop ANY protected speech with violence, whether that's a punch or a bullet is wrong. period.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Haven't read anything for about a week but Wonder Woman #14 was a great way to start. Year One's been really good. Sad to see Nicola Scott's leaving though.
Principle Morton in Renew Your Vows is a spitting image of Steve Harvey.
Principle Morton in Renew Your Vows is a spitting image of Steve Harvey.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Eh. Do we really have to wait for them to start with the war crimes? I'd prefer to punch Nazis before they have a chance to put me in a camp, tyvm.
Because, I mean, that is the end game. You know that, right? Spencer and people like him are a genocide waiting to happen.
Freezasaurus
Member
Wait, are we talking about comics or real life? I can't even tell anymore.
Non violent protest works to a point. Because by the logic of guys from Spencer.
And lets be honest this is what non violent protests get you.
And 50 years later what has changed going by recent events at standing rock and Fegurson. Now many states are trying to make protesting illegal.
So fuck Nick Spencer and anyone else with his midset.
And lets be honest this is what non violent protests get you.
And 50 years later what has changed going by recent events at standing rock and Fegurson. Now many states are trying to make protesting illegal.
So fuck Nick Spencer and anyone else with his midset.
Durrzerker
Banned
Poodlestrike
Banned
Pre-emptive justice, eh? Sounds like a plan.
I would prefer not dying horribly along with my entire family to dying horribly along with my entire family yes.
I mean, if that's okay with you. If you feel that the principle of nonviolent conflict resolution is worth more to you, I guess that's your prerogative.
Durrzerker
Banned
You still need to connect the dots for me on how punching Richard Spencer furthers that goal, 'cause from what I can tell, it just makes things worse by painting our side as violent and causing rifts between those of us who prefer to avoid violence and those who think it's the best solution, further fracturing our already divided and limited voter base.
(Or we can just be honest, stop hiding behind rhetoric, and admit it just makes us feel better and isn't doing a goddamn thing for the actual movement)