Messi, I hate to break it to you, but my dislike of Nocenti is most definitely real.
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COMICS! |OT| July 2014. Lots of stores on the way to San Diego sell deodorant.
- Thread starter Spike Spiegel
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Messi, I hate to break it to you, but my dislike of Nocenti is most definitely real.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
It's a bad look at this point. Erigu-tier.
She tries so hard though :/
Is it though? Or are our standards just too high?
ha! Sorry brah
Since last week's books were a bit light I spent a bunch of time reading old Batman books, partially inspired by Viewtiful's links to the Best 75 Batman stories - http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/category/75-greatest-batman-stories/
I'm now 31 years of age, and have been reading Batman since I was 10 and picked up #5 of The Batman Adventures (just a few issues before Harley's first appearance which I no longer seem to have...). As such, I've seen a massive chunk of the Batman mythos. I remember legendary covers of books I never picked up though, so I've been making a point of going back and reading some of these arcs to see what was up with that.
Most recently I have been going back and filling in my gaps of the Chuck Dixon canon. For those of us joining the comics party late, Dixon was a Batwriter in the early 90s who pretty much invented 'modern Batman'. Tim Drake might have been introduced by Wolfman in Lonely Place of Dying, but it was Dixon (and to a lesser extent Alan Grant) who laid the real groundwork for the character, writing the three Robin miniseries that set the character up. Dixon is also responsible for the modern Huntress, rescued Nightwing from big-collar obscurity, wrote a great Catwoman, created the Spoiler and also kicked off the Birds of Prey books before Simone got her hands on them. He's a straight up legend.
IMO, Dixon's Detective run is one of the stronger bunch of issues in the history of the character, ably assisted by the wonderful Graham Nolan, another great forgotten Bat-creator. To me, Nolan is the definitive 90s Bat artists - I never was into Aparo even as a kid, he's an incredibly limited artist with very little dynamism in his work, just a few stock faces (front on, profile or 3/4 shot only) and always this brittle feel to it. Nolan by contrast was exciting, he drew a muscular Batman without being 90s ripped and his style fell somewhere between Adams and Timm, especially with his approach to Robin and Batman's cowl.
The books themselves are refreshing to read in today's climate of grim and gritty 12 part stories. Little one and two part tales with a surprisingly lightness of touch. Snappy dialogue with an engaging supporting cast. The run stretches from around Robin's introduction right up until the start of No Man's Land, covering an impressive span of years from #644-729, including a massive chunk of Knightfall and the subsequent crossovers. Of special interest is a little run pre-Knightfall, including the lovely #650 of Tec called The Dragon where Harold, Batman's hunchbacked mute engineer goes exploring the Batcave while Robin and Alfred rush to stop a bomb going off live on TV. It's a light and fun little book with good character work, we don't see this enough any more. Also in this run is A Bullet for Bullock that the animated series ep was adapted from.
So yeah, pretty much just thinking about old Bat-runs. I'll post more as I read more.
I liked Nolan's work a lot, but I think Grant was just as important to modern Bats as Dixon (who also did great stuff). Similarly Breyfogle's Batman for me is what Nolan is for you.
I recognize Aparo and respect him, but I have never had the same attachment to his work.
Yep!
I really wish Nick Pitarra was coming so I could get my MP stuff signed and maybe get a commission.
Awesome post, man
I may never read the older bat-runs as Batman is not my favourite character and right now I intend to read the biggest/most important stories with him and some that interest me, but I'm always up for reading about the long history of the character - it's fascinating!I remember some of you saying that some part of Ultimate Fantastic Four was supposed to be awesome? Like the first two arcs or something? The first six issues were written by Millar and Bendis and after reading Ultimates 2 today I must admit that there's something about Millar's work that I find interesting and compelling. Also, I looked at the Marvel Unlimited page for Ultimate Fantastic Four and it seems like it was written mostly by really great creators. After Planetary I love Ellis and Carey wrote like 30 issues (I remember his X-Men, Lucifer and The Unwritten getting a lot of positive opinions in this thread)! How come the run is not well regarded? Should I bother trying to read it?
TetraxShards
Member
Greg Land art.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Supreme was a Liefield Superman ripoff from the 90s. Unsurprisingly, it sucked.
Then image gave the character to Alan Moore, who turned it into a tribute to everything he loves about comics.
ha! Sorry brah
Since last week's books were a bit light I spent a bunch of time reading old Batman books, partially inspired by Viewtiful's links to the Best 75 Batman stories - http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/category/75-greatest-batman-stories/
Am I remembering correctly that awhile ago you made a post about Knightfall and how Azrael's story arc was more interesting to you than Bruce's?
8 issues initially, and it may continue from there with further arcs.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
I disagree, opinions are not formed and expressed in a vacuum and some are very much worth more than others. This isn't even 100% about Quitely, but it's reasonable to say that there are artists and writers whose work is almost universally considered to be high quality and this can be considered a canon of modern comic books. Therefore I think that outright bashing it is wrong from a number of angles and you need to really have a decent critical point for your opinion to be considered as anything but trolling (or as mentioned upthread, direct attacks on groups of posters).
I think that if you're going to attempt to slay a sacred cow you better come at it with some original thought and carefully considered opinions, otherwise you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
Comics aren't a total monoculture obviously and there is plenty of room for discussion, but shitting all over artists that have done groundbreaking and revolutionary work is just ugly and I'm bored of seeing it. Everyone here is aware of the ideological boundaries that divide us all and we should all do out parts to stop it tearing us apart.
Except tragicomedy, he really is a blight on this thread and I'm sick of his grade school shit.
Tyrant Rave
Banned
Samnee posted a Thor drawing on his tumblr:
So good
So good
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
That definitely sounds like something I'd say! Actually read some issues last night where JPV is in that midpoint between Az and Knightfall, they really were setting his fall up way before the event proper. As 90s comics go I think the Knight saga is incredibly ambitious and actually quite coherent. And you have to keep it in context too, this was one of the very first branded crossovers lasting more than a few issues. Very impressive.
I def think the JPV story is very interesting, slowly unravelling, paranoid and feeling like he's not worthy, the decent into madness reflected in the costume, the reactions from allies and rogues alike (LOVE the Joker story and the way Catwoman teases poor virginal Paul).
It's a shame that they didn't really give JPV much meaningful to do after the event other than his (crappy) book. He had real potential.
Bruce's arc was ok but a bit predictable, although I did really like the overspill stories like Troika and Prodigal, mostly for the Robin material.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
Awesome post, man
I remember some of you saying that some part of Ultimate Fantastic Four was supposed to be awesome? Like the first two arcs or something? The first six issues were written by Millar and Bendis and after reading Ultimates 2 today I must admit that there's something about Millar's work that I find interesting and compelling. Also, I looked at the Marvel Unlimited page for Ultimate Fantastic Four and it seems like it was written mostly by really great creators. After Planetary I love Ellis and Carey wrote like 30 issues (I remember his X-Men, Lucifer and The Unwritten getting a lot of positive opinions in this thread)! How come the run is not well regarded? Should I bother trying to read it?
Oh man yes! The first few arcs were Warren Ellis and I think some Immonen(?) also great, but IMO the Millar/Land run is some of the best FF I've ever read. 12 issues, ideas so massive it feels like it's ghostwritten by Morrison, not even Land can ruin it. I think it fell apart with Carey because he was trying to squeeze so much Cosmic stuff in there that it all got very muddy and confused. But the start was great.
The Ultimate line is strange on that some of the character through lines are quite unclear, there's an Ultimate Doom trilogy that leads right into Hickman's Ultimates that really finishes up the FF story nicely.
KoruptData
Member
Actually Messi, that's NeoGAF culture.
High standards are good. Have high standards, low expectations.
I re-read it all a couple years ago when DC released those massive new tpb's for the first time since the story originally ran. I remember reading complaints online about a handful of missing issues from the second or third volume pertaining to Bruce and being a bit baffled by it. I've always viewed the entire arc as JPV's story and not Bruce's. Bruce was necessary to set the story in motion, but I absolutely love the rise and fall of JPV, much more so than Bruce's quest to heal his back.
Of all the 90s comics crossovers, I think Knightfall is the one that still really holds up to this day. Yeah the art looks a bit dated, but the storytelling was pretty top notch. It was fascinating to watch JPV slowly descend into madness as the mental programming of the System conflicts with the hallucinations of his father to drive him over the edge. It's also interesting to me how it's themes and concepts were reused and referenced by later writers. Morrison clearly riffed on it with RIP, Bruce's "death" in Final Crisis, and then Dick taking the mantle of the bat again in B&R. I also can't help but think that Snyder's Talons and the Court of Owls were directly referenced by Azrael and the Order of St Dumas and the System.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
I think as well, this was one of my very first comics too, so I was totally into JPV and I thought this was it forever, very exciting stuff when you're 10. But much like DC1M it works still because the world building is so solid, Dixon, Moench and Grant were a fantastic writing team.
One long running old story that I really want to check out is the Nocturna arc from the very early 80s. I've not read it yet but my impression is that it has Pre Crisis Jason Todd involved a lot and some kind of love triangle. Never see it referred to at all so when I came across some issues it's stuck in my craw as something I need to read. I'm horrified reading through that 75 stories list how many of them I've read, now I think it wouldn't take much more work to have read nearly EVERYTHING post 1970.
I respect and like everyone in this thread. I especially value your opinion on things Jedeye, primarily because it was your wonderful avatar that made me interested in We3 (which I loved btw), and because there is absolutely no doubt you have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to comics.
However, I can't in good faith agree with you here, not when it involves an entertainment medium like comics. Using the excuse that an artist is universally loved and considered good shouldn't mean that someone's opinion about said thing is automatically wrong because the rest of the world loves it.
Let's take for example something like Harry Potter. It's universally loved by many, it's grossed millions of dollars at the box office, it even has it's own theme park! I know that it's without a doubt one of my favorite pieces of literature and one I will forever cherish. BUT, I know plenty of people, my fiance included, that just don't care for it. Whether it be the fantasy settings, some of the British culture, the characters ,whatever the fuck ever it is they don't like. Does it baffle me? Absolutely. Can I still respect that person for not sharing my opinion? Absolutely.
Sometimes the old saying, "agree to disagree" really should be the way of seeing things. I didn't particularly care for Quitely's art the first time around, especially on New X-Men. But I've most definitely come around to it, and even bought the disappointing (more because of the content) art book released this year.
I can have the opinion that Frank's art is good, and still get a good laugh out of that potato head picture that Tragiccomedy posted. I mean, c'mon! It was a bunch of potato heads dressed as comic heroes, it was funny.
I know I've said it before, but the single best thing about comics in my opinion, is that there is literally something for everyone. We don't all have to like the same thing, which is apparent by this thread, but it's those differing opinions that may make someone new interested in that topic of discussion.
I love our community here, I don't have anyone on ignore, and I really have a lot of you to thank for introducing me to some of my favorite things in this industry.
I definitely wasn't a fan of Quitely's work in X-Men but I'm a convert. I still need to read Flex Mentallo, but if you go through All-Star Superman, Batman and Robin and We3 (the latter being outright mindblowing) and aren't able to appreciate what he does, then I don't know what to say. Calling him a bad artist is just lol-worthy. The detailed precision and sense of weight in his drawings is rad. I can give weird faces a pass when everything else is that good.
What's everyone's go-to site for comic book release dates? I usually use pulllist.comixology.com but that always seems to have books turning up a week or so early. I'm looking for something where I can enter which titles I'm pulling like the site I've linked to, but with less error.
KoruptData
Member
Ok, let's get a book club schedule going.
Currently we are doing Batman Zero Year reread.
This upcoming weekend, BuddyJoe recommended The Wake.
Who would like to suggest a title for the following week?
Also, for outsiders who don't read Snyders Batman, how was all the post about the reread? Was it intrusive? Was it interesting? Too spoilery? Please let us know.
Currently we are doing Batman Zero Year reread.
This upcoming weekend, BuddyJoe recommended The Wake.
Who would like to suggest a title for the following week?
Also, for outsiders who don't read Snyders Batman, how was all the post about the reread? Was it intrusive? Was it interesting? Too spoilery? Please let us know.
Website wise I use http://www.previewsworld.com/. But I tend to use the "Comics Day" iOS app the most.
I've heard of that app, but I don't think it's available in the UK. Thanks anyway!
Something like Saga maybe? Thread could use more saga.
As for spoilers, I thought maybe there were a few too many spoilery pictures. Bii nails the pictures without spoilers look. The text was great.
I really need to go through that list and see what all of it I've read.
To this day, one of my favorite Alan Grant stories is the two part Anarky in Gotham City arc from his Tec run back in 89 or 90. Fantastic writing, great art by Breyfogle, and an interesting villain. It's really a shame someone hasn't run with the Anarky character in the N52, I don't think it would take much work to update him a bit to fit our era and still keep the central core of him the same.
slightconfuse
Banned
My Morrison a animal man omnibus came today!
Prepare for one of the best comic runs ever.
KoruptData
Member
Are the new Batgirl and Catwoman creative teams on Twitter? I can't find them and I want to hassle them
I'll tweet you them.
Much appreciated
Including falling out with everyone and complicated rights issues.
(I kid. Ish.)
Moore's run on Supreme is wonderful, if you can find anywhere to actually read it.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
See, I believe that you are able to have levels of both objectivity and subjectivity in an approach to works of art. That is to say, "I don't like this but I can see that it's good". I don't like Take That for instance, but I can tell they write good pop songs. I don't like Jae Lee at all but I can see that his art is unique and considered and has skill.
I think it's tricky to come at art or entertainment from this angle, and I don't think that there needs to be value in all things (some things are just 'bad' IMO - you can still like them, but you need to understand they're not good - I think over half the weekly books published would come under this). But I still think it's possible to judge the objective quality of a work against the subjective value to you as an individual.
Getting more to the point, I absolutely believe that some opinions are worthless (and perhaps worse, even, actively harmful). For instance, if someone came to me and said "Shakespeare was shit" I know immediately that the person's views are not to be trusted and that their opinion is wrong, because not only is the quality self evident, but there's also a substantial body of people that could tell you at great lengths his influence and skill. Same for our own cultural ghetto - if someone were to say "Kirby is shit!" then that person is an idiot, right? Groundbreaking work, incredible sense of scale and boundless imagination. Weird faces though, often very rushed. It's not just an opinion, it's an objectively wrong opinion. Now, is it time and distance from an artist that allows them to be canonised, or is it something you can tell immediately? Is it too early to call someone like Quitely a legend, or can we already see this from his body of work. And it's not even just the work on the page itself either, it's the way he conceptualises and thinks about what he's doing, there are very few artists in the medium whose work is as considered and as perfect as he is.
Let's take this as another example - the other day I saw Messi say that he did not like Sandman. To me, I can't understand this, I think it's a classic (only read it 2 years ago too, so not even clouded by nostalgia). But if Messi has said it was shit, then we would have had a problem, because that would mean he was wrong.
And so to see things like this dismissed jokingly is offensive to me as a lover of art. It sounds dramatic but it's true. There are some (not all, of course, but some) artists whose best work is THE BEST WORK, to smooth it all out into "well everyone has an opinion" is disingenuous, especially in such a small medium where those of us who've been around long enough have seen nearly everything and we have the experience to comment on it.
Personally, my tastes rarely match up with the mainstream, but I can still tell that a universally critically praised work of art (not necessarily best selling, those are different concepts) be it book, film, comic, game will usually have some inheirent value regardless of my actual opinion on it. If consensus says it's good, then I think it should be reckoned with on those merits. And if I find it falls short of the praise, I need to be ready with my points because I would expect to be challenged on my opinion.
Now this is a very interesting example to choose. IMO, it's obvious that HP is very popular indeed. But I think this is one of those instances where "great" and "popular" do not necessary intersect. I think JKR did an excellent job with world building and obviously has a somewhat formidable imagination, but the books themselves have fairly poor prose (at least the first half that I managed to read), oddly anachronistic dialogue sounding more like Enid Blyton than anything else, and an entirely infuriating Dickensian naming convention that nears made me spit out blood. IMO her success has as much to do with marketing as it does her own writing. I think the book is a success in spite of her skill not necessarily because of it.
I did watch all the films though, they were fairly entertaining.
Yeah, but all means accept there are things you don't like, but why attack constantly? Just leave it alone. There are more acceptable targets, artists who deserve to be lampooned and criticised. But it often feels like sacred cow slaying, and it is very tiresome. All the more so when accompanied by pages of #dead.
Interesting discussion though!
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
art is shit though
I quite like Troug's art. It has a kind of lightness (probably not the best word) to it that's an interesting juxtaposition to the generally dark and messed up stories Morrison was telling.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Alan Moore's Supreme is the best Superman run of the nineties
I am incredibly hyped for Gotham Academy. It's seems like a book that is right up my alley.
I am not going to make Quitely jokes anymore as I did not realize I was offending some people here. It was never my intention. I am actually quite passive about his art. To me it looks fine, his faces are a bit dodgy but there is much worse art out there.
Adam Hughes art is my new jam. That shit is awesome.
I am not going to make Quitely jokes anymore as I did not realize I was offending some people here. It was never my intention. I am actually quite passive about his art. To me it looks fine, his faces are a bit dodgy but there is much worse art out there.
Adam Hughes art is my new jam. That shit is awesome.
Tyrant Rave
Banned
Yes, it's so amazing. His Wonder Woman pieces are absolutely beautiful.
Holy shit, I just realised that the art I am using for my tattoo is Adam Hughes art.
Amazing. I also own that cover.
This is also stellar work.
I've not seen his Wonder Woman pieces, I don't think. His Catwoman covers are special.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
This post is my everything.
Thank you for keeping the discourse elevated as HAYELL.
ThyMusicMan
Member
..Yeah I'll say sorry now,,, I probably got a little to picture happy.. just soo purdy tho..
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I don't know how many of ya are reading the Superman: Doomed story. That comes to an end next month (8/27).
...That's 18 issues tho :/,, 15 without the prologue.
Freezasaurus
Member
ArtFX+ Damian.
ArtFX+ Deadpool teaser.
ArtFX+ Deadpool teaser.
KoruptData
Member
I saw that Damian a few days ago next to the Batman Art-FX and it's perfect scale. I'm getting it.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
I never pictured Damian's shirt to be that chromey, but I can imagine Moz being into that.
Freezasaurus
Member
Bishoujo She-Hulk anyone? Yes plz.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
I'm interested to see how they tie Doomed up. I think it's been better than I'd feared but I'm still not 100% sure on the rules of it all and I'm not sure where it's going other then the inevitable cure around the corner. I think the best thing about it has been Wonder Woman's role, this is the first story where them being a couple actually makes it more interesting. But them being a couple is so weird still. Like, most of the time they're completely asexual. And then when they hint at sex it's all weird.
Anyway, Doomed. Yes. Can't say I'll be thinking about it in a year's time, but it's not been horrible.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
Actually you're right
His head is much more squat than that, he's got a case of the Stewies. Squat squinty lil Damian. I miss him.
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