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Vader1
Unconfirmed Member
Story and characters are the one area Zelda, and Nintendo in general, has always struggled with.
Comparing Horizon Zero Dawn and TLoZ: BoTW
- Thread starter Neoleo2143
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Story and characters are the one area Zelda, and Nintendo in general, has always struggled with.
What has me unexcited for Horizon is the fact that it is a product of first party Sony. Aside from Driveclub and in terms of gameplay only, I cannot think of a Sony game that has hooked me like some Nintendo/Blizzard/Cacom/From/Atlas/CdProjeck/Platinum/Rocketstar/SquareEnixgames/Valve games. And Sony fucking killed the Driveclub studio!
Looking over the lists of ps3 and ps4 first party games, I see nothing interesting gameplay-wise. For the amount of money they've spent, the really have very little in terms of valuable game IP. And the ones they do have are valuable because of how they are written, not how they play (edit: with the exception of Turismo).
As far as Zelda goes, I didn't enjoy the two I tried to play and I have zero nostalgia for that series, so I'm not excited for that one either...what am I even doing in this thread, lol.
Looking over the lists of ps3 and ps4 first party games, I see nothing interesting gameplay-wise. For the amount of money they've spent, the really have very little in terms of valuable game IP. And the ones they do have are valuable because of how they are written, not how they play (edit: with the exception of Turismo).
As far as Zelda goes, I didn't enjoy the two I tried to play and I have zero nostalgia for that series, so I'm not excited for that one either...what am I even doing in this thread, lol.
Ummm no? Nintendo is "characters" the company. Zelda in general has some of the best cast of characters in its genre.
BigEmil
Junior Member
2MuchPolygons
you're confusing character with mascot.
Mario, across any individual title isn't much of a character.
Neoleo2143
Member
Mario's more the exception than the rule I feel. The Mario RPGs and Adventure games really craft a charming universe.
I would say Link is less of a blank slate. His personality in SS and TP was conveyed entirely through body language and while simple I felt it was well done. I'd rather hang around his character than innumerable gaming protagonists.
Retromelon
Member
Nah dude. It doesn't just look that way, it is that way.
Let's take a closer look
If I may direct your gaze to the highlighted red, you can see that the forearm tapers into it at one end, and widens at the other end into a palm/backhand. This is consistent with human wrist proportions. There is no way the armguard covers the hand, unless Aloy's are grossly misshapen. That's her wrist.
With this in mind we can now compare the backhand area with her fingers (green highlight). As you can see, they are abnormally, one might say hideously long. What's worse is we can already tell this despite the fact that they are curled around the bow, meaning they are even disgustingly longer when not.
Don't wan't to believe me? Focus on her middle finger. It's stupidly lengthy.
As small an issue as this may be for most of you, this is an undeniable fail on the part of the graphic/character designers, for a game that supposedly tried to depict humans in realistic detail as AAA games usually do. It's a shame that tens of millions of dollars likely went into Horizon's development but their models can fall prey to such abysmal oversight.
No, Mario across any individual title isn't a mascot first, he's a character first. His strength as a character is what allows him to be such a great mascot. I don't even know how you have a strong mascot without a strong character.
No his visual design being simple but strong enough to last is what you are talking about. Mario doesn't really have much of a character except he's a pleasant plumber (or something) that goes on adventures to save a princess (for the most part). He doesn't really have a character outside of the most vague and wide reaching basics. He's so open a character he can fit into basically any Nintendo game because it doesn't matter as long as he looks like Mario. Its gotten to the point that he has parody/evil versions of him that are just Mario but with a more "negative" design. Mario is joyful, helpful and heroic, Wario is mean, greedy and bad.
You joke, but it doesn't have to be anything more than this. Would you say the various Looney Tunes (Bugs, Daffy, Tweety, ect.) who can have just as little defined, raise to the level of a character?
Jawbreaker
Member
Nah dude. It doesn't just look that way, it is that way.
Let's take a closer look
If I may direct your gaze to the highlighted red, you can see that the forearm tapers into it at one end, and widens at the other end into a palm/backhand. This is consistent with human wrist proportions. There is no way the armguard covers the hand, unless Aloy's are grossly misshapen. That's her wrist.
With this in mind we can now compare the backhand area with her fingers (green highlight). As you can see, they are abnormally, one might say hideously long. What's worse is we can already tell this despite the fact that they are curled around the bow, meaning they are even disgustingly longer when not.
Don't wan't to believe me? Focus on her middle finger. It's stupidly lengthy.
As small an issue as this may be for most of you, this is an undeniable fail on the part of the graphic/character designers, for a game that supposedly tried to depict humans in realistic detail as AAA games usually do. It's a shame that tens of millions of dollars likely went into Horizon's development but their models can fall prey to such abysmal oversight.
Preorder canceled.
OrbitalBeard
Member
You're trying too hard.
I'd say Bugs and them have far more personality and character traits than Mario and crew and even then I wouldn't consider them stand out characters because many of them are just walking stereotypes or jokes. Porky Pig is a nervous stutterer and Pepe LePew is basically a rapist Frenchman.
- A new IP with a crazy "prehistoric post-apocalyptic" concept that's never been done at this level before.
- Full voice acting. For AAA-level game production in 2016, full voice acting is not just expected, it's a requirement.
- Witnessing advances in technology/graphics. Games are literally technology, and it's exciting to see the technology pushed to the limit in terms of graphical fidelity.
- RPG elements that elevate it past just being an action adventure game. Crafting, skill trees and different armour and equipment let you customise the game to suit your playstyle rather than having one solution to a certain type of environment or enemy. It means you have to evaluate your decisions based on opportunity cost and limited resources.
- I can't quite put my finger on it, but the gameplay form what I've seen hits the right balance between action shooter and RPG. Such a simple decision like making you have to charge your bow before firing makes a huge difference to how it plays. You have to consider your positioning at all times to make sure you have the time to pull off a shot before being hit, and balance defense and offense.
- A female protagonist, which might not appeal to all gamers, but is a huge plus for me to see some diversity.
I'm seeing instances of everything in your list but these three in BotW (we might have a playable female character, though she won't be the protagonist). I'm ultimately excited for both games, I really love Horizon's aesthetics.
i think this is a perspective issue, The game character is not a work of one designer or modeler , it goes through with different people at different levels , The whole rig system and animation system depends on it. So it will not be just some oversight on part of a single person .
Instead of this particular image we should check the new videos or photos to get the other perspective. Personally i don't think this is just some oversight , she is the main protagonist , Unless this is a design decision on there part.
some images.
I feel like this is a slightly different version of the argument we see in the "Should there be a playable female Link threads?". Given what relatively little details we have, some people strongly believe that Link is a distinctly defined character while others believe the sparseness of details leads to a weak character.
It seems like, a strong character to you would is tied more strongly to narrative or at least having more character traits to make up more than an overview. I would argue that bar is way too high if Looney Tunes, otherwise known as cartoon characters, wouldn't be considered a character.
LordKasual
Banned
There is like...a GAF fad of taking 2 games that really shouldn't be compared to one another and comparing them anyway
and for some reason, one of the games is always a nintendo game
I don't even think Nintendo themselves would be bold enough to stick Breath of the Wild anywhere close to Horizon Zero Dawn.
and for some reason, one of the games is always a nintendo game
I don't even think Nintendo themselves would be bold enough to stick Breath of the Wild anywhere close to Horizon Zero Dawn.
I never said Mario isn't a character, I just said there isn't much there to define him outside of his generally cheery attitude and that the defining trait about him is the gameplay of his original titles and by and far, his visual design. He's a character but he's about as deep as a puddle on a hot cloudless summer day.
LordKasual
Banned
The only time Link has ever been a "character" was Wind Waker.
He had a grandmother, he had a sister, he had a birthday, he had a home, and they didn't cheat by invalidating any of it either. They were his actual relatives. You could derive some sense of past from Link, as if he, you know, actually existed outside the scope of the game.
Every other link is some random guy who SOMEHOW managed to live among a bunch of people who are a completely different heritage than him, by himself, with no family, no siblings, no nothing. Just shat out of midair. They never once explain how he gets to where he is and the story never seems to care. An elf with a sword who's deliberately setup so you can imprint yourself onto him.
Would you say a character would need to be deep in order to be a strong character? I'm saying that it doesn't.
I don't have any problem contextualizing OOT, MM, SS, or TP Link in a similar manner. The details are there. Those details resonating with you or not should determine the quality of the character not whether he is one or not.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Nah dude. It doesn't just look that way, it is that way.
Let's take a closer look
If I may direct your gaze to the highlighted red, you can see that the forearm tapers into it at one end, and widens at the other end into a palm/backhand. This is consistent with human wrist proportions. There is no way the armguard covers the hand, unless Aloy's are grossly misshapen. That's her wrist.
With this in mind we can now compare the backhand area with her fingers (green highlight). As you can see, they are abnormally, one might say hideously long. What's worse is we can already tell this despite the fact that they are curled around the bow, meaning they are even disgustingly longer when not.
Don't wan't to believe me? Focus on her middle finger. It's stupidly lengthy.
As small an issue as this may be for most of you, this is an undeniable fail on the part of the graphic/character designers, for a game that supposedly tried to depict humans in realistic detail as AAA games usually do. It's a shame that tens of millions of dollars likely went into Horizon's development but their models can fall prey to such abysmal oversight.
Due stop trolling. You are reaching shit post status.
Retromelon
Member
If you're gonna call me a shitposter without articulating why, you've contributed nothing. Don't be mad at me because the female main character in a game you can't bear to see withstand criticism has nba player finger length
V
Vader1
Unconfirmed Member
Some side characters can be interesting, but the vast majority of Zelda characters, including the "trio" of Link, Zelda and Ganondorf, are the embodiment of fantasy character archetypes. The princess who needs to be saved, the evil power-hungry villain, the hero who exists to save the world, defeat the bad guy, and save the princess, with absolutely no inner complexities or conflicts. SS Link and WW Link stand out more, but only in relation to their other incarnations, and only because they had more expressive animations. They still aren't interesting characters by any means.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
No your criticisms are just juvenile. I really don't think you want to get into a technical comparison of the two games. Seems like another insecure Zelda fanboy that is threatened that another open world game releasing in similar time frame is getting praise. That's my read.
This is strange , so instead of replying me back, where i have posted some screens and explanation, you replied to something else and doubling down on it.
Franz Brötchen
Banned
What's at hand here with many recent posters imo is that they confuse games for narrative art forms like movies.
You can say that most Nintendo characters are a little too superficial even by classic Disney/Looney Toons standards, to work as good movie characters. But to then say that they're bad video game characters is so ridiculous that I can't even believe you read what you write.
People, we had just recently news coming out regarding extensive plans for Nintendo theme parks. Pretty sure some business people who know how to 'objectively' categorize good characters (i.e. beloved characters) see Nintendo's characters as second to none in video games.
If you personally prefer strong narrative over gameplay, that's fine and naturally, Nintendo then isn't that great to you. But I really think that video games as an art form must place gameplay first and foremost or they are just doomed to be ultimately just lesser films with really just the gimmick of limited interactivity.
Back on topic, this will likely be my greatest problem with Horizon: The pure game play part just won't be as good as Zelda. Among others:
No hint of physics based puzzles or combat to the extent that BotW offers.
Zelda having a more open world since you can actually climb anywhere.
Weapon durability as a good way to make loot actually interesting.
Horizon will look stunning in 2017 but play as limited as any Ubisoft game since 2006, this is my prediction.
You can say that most Nintendo characters are a little too superficial even by classic Disney/Looney Toons standards, to work as good movie characters. But to then say that they're bad video game characters is so ridiculous that I can't even believe you read what you write.
People, we had just recently news coming out regarding extensive plans for Nintendo theme parks. Pretty sure some business people who know how to 'objectively' categorize good characters (i.e. beloved characters) see Nintendo's characters as second to none in video games.
If you personally prefer strong narrative over gameplay, that's fine and naturally, Nintendo then isn't that great to you. But I really think that video games as an art form must place gameplay first and foremost or they are just doomed to be ultimately just lesser films with really just the gimmick of limited interactivity.
Back on topic, this will likely be my greatest problem with Horizon: The pure game play part just won't be as good as Zelda. Among others:
No hint of physics based puzzles or combat to the extent that BotW offers.
Zelda having a more open world since you can actually climb anywhere.
Weapon durability as a good way to make loot actually interesting.
Horizon will look stunning in 2017 but play as limited as any Ubisoft game since 2006, this is my prediction.
geordiemp
Member
Franz Brötchen;226749421 said:
The gameplay and fighting I have seen Horizon looks very good, especially the E3 demo, which is typical multiple enemies and bosses with crit spots.
Zelda also looks familiar, 3 to 4 enemies spawning and bosses with crit spots. Zelda also looked very easy, maybe a bit too much so.
I am interested in Switch for a holiday console (or maybe a gaming laptop if they come down allot). Cant see myself playing BOTW on my 55 inch 4K, it looked like shit IQ wise but probably fine on a 6 inch screen.
Horizon pro looked really good, premier to 2nd division differences to BOTW which is understandable for a portable. I dont consider switch as a home console category, its too weak.
Franz Brötchen
Banned
https://youtu.be/Na1cIOmfBlU?t=57s Yeah, definitely too easy...
This may of course be your opinion, I personally find it stupidly ignorant to judge games on still only miniscule visual differences. As ignorant as saying that I'd rather watch the cinematic abomination Batman vs Superman than Tim Burton's Batman because the latter has less convincing people-flying-through-buildings lololol.
SolidSnakex
Member
Franz Brötchen;226749421 said:
That doesn't mean that somehow the gameplay is worse. Particularly when you talk about combat. Rather than being built on around physics, it's instead built around attack points. You can eventually kill a number of enemies just by hitting it over and over. But focusing on specific limbs with disable them, focusing on weapons may cause those to fall off allowing you to use them against an enemy. So, while BotW may give you a number of options because of the physics based combat, Horizon gives you a number of options in a different way.
Franz Brötchen;226749421 said:
A giant world where you can go anywhere is something that's been hyped by a lot of open-world devs. Ultimately, what's far more important is making sure there's a lot to actually do in that world while also making sure that it never feels empty. The avoiding the empty part is something many struggle with. It's something that Rockstar excels at. They don't necessarily make the biggest worlds. What they do is make worlds that feel alive. Which is what's most important. Their games are the benchmark that both Guerrilla and Nintendo should be looking at. Obviously Horizon and Zelda are very different games compared to what Rockstar does, but their ability to fill their worlds with content and make them feel alive is what they both should aim for.
Franz Brötchen;226749421 said:
Weapon durability is a controversial issue. Nioh's alpha had it in with the idea that it would cause players to experiment with more weapons. It ultimate caused a lot of frustration with many players. Team Ninja responded by completely removing it for the beta, which was highly praised. Of course that doesn't meant hat it can't work. But it's not some automatic plus over another game that doesn't have it.
geordiemp
Member
Franz Brötchen;226749817 said:
Miniscule differences, really ? That is funny.
Why bother ever changing your hardware if you cannot see properly ? I should of stayed with my 360 / ps3 / wii
I said it looks great for a handheld, on 6 inches will look good, on a 4K 55 inch it will look garbage.
I will most likely get one for hols and stuff, but as a console its severly lacking, but thats OK as lets face it, its a bloody hand held.
Franz Brötchen
Banned
Any console is just garbage compared to my PC rig, yet I don't fling insults at them for being that.
Being part of a new-born console master race in late 2016 is just laughable, but we won't come to any agreement here, so I'll leave it at that.
I refuse to believe this is.
I refuse to believe you are serious.Nah dude. It doesn't just look that way, it is that way.
Let's take a closer look
If I may direct your gaze to the highlighted red, you can see that the forearm tapers into it at one end, and widens at the other end into a palm/backhand. This is consistent with human wrist proportions. There is no way the armguard covers the hand, unless Aloy's are grossly misshapen. That's her wrist.
With this in mind we can now compare the backhand area with her fingers (green highlight). As you can see, they are abnormally, one might say hideously long. What's worse is we can already tell this despite the fact that they are curled around the bow, meaning they are even disgustingly longer when not.
Don't wan't to believe me? Focus on her middle finger. It's stupidly lengthy.
As small an issue as this may be for most of you, this is an undeniable fail on the part of the graphic/character designers, for a game that supposedly tried to depict humans in realistic detail as AAA games usually do. It's a shame that tens of millions of dollars likely went into Horizon's development but their models can fall prey to such abysmal oversight.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Franz Brötchen;226749421 said:
Fast weapon degradation is awful and it looks like a constant issue in Zelda.
You will be wrong about the Ubisoft dated gameplay. I think Horizon Zero Dawn is more inline with a game like The Witcher 3.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Horizon definitely looks better in its environments, but thats expected. I think the big contention in open world comparisons is the battle system so lets see how that ends up.
Moon Presence
Member
Nah dude. It doesn't just look that way, it is that way.
Let's take a closer look
If I may direct your gaze to the highlighted red, you can see that the forearm tapers into it at one end, and widens at the other end into a palm/backhand. This is consistent with human wrist proportions. There is no way the armguard covers the hand, unless Aloy's are grossly misshapen. That's her wrist.
With this in mind we can now compare the backhand area with her fingers (green highlight). As you can see, they are abnormally, one might say hideously long. What's worse is we can already tell this despite the fact that they are curled around the bow, meaning they are even disgustingly longer when not.
Don't wan't to believe me? Focus on her middle finger. It's stupidly lengthy.
As small an issue as this may be for most of you, this is an undeniable fail on the part of the graphic/character designers, for a game that supposedly tried to depict humans in realistic detail as AAA games usually do. It's a shame that tens of millions of dollars likely went into Horizon's development but their models can fall prey to such abysmal oversight.
Heckler456
Banned
I think I'm having a stroke.
geordiemp
Member
Franz Brötchen;226751969 said:
Being a great handheld with a TV out but not in same space as current consoles is not an insult, it is what it is. Its a handheld with a TV out. There is a space for that unless gaming laptops tumble in price. I have an oldish gaming laptop but its on its last legs.
PC rigs dont look any better than horizon on Ps4 pro imo, .. although consoles do need i5 + class CPU to start doing 60 FPS more consistently. That aint happening for a few more years.
The next stage for consoles should be faster CPU and frame rates, 4K checkerboard is enough detail and IQ for me at living room viewing distances.
Retromelon
Member
Lmfao with this console warrior bullshit. In my prior posts in this thread I even said I hope horizon gets better before its released. Poor sonyboy that needs to fall back on graphics, run along
Jawbreaker
Member
In this post: Complains about "console warrior bullshit," proceeds to use console warrior language.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
ITT: -Console Wars
-PC master race
-Pointless over-analysis
-Why the hell are we even comparing these two they're not even competing against the same audience anyway?
-PC master race
-Pointless over-analysis
-Why the hell are we even comparing these two they're not even competing against the same audience anyway?
People, people
STOP comparing Horizon to ZELDA.
Horizon looks like a very good game.
BUT BOTW looks insanely Good.
When was the last time that a game was nominated to replace OoT as the Best of all Time videogame.??
If you people keep this comparison going on the only output will be very very bad for horizon.
ZELDA will have horizon for breakfast.
STOP comparing Horizon to ZELDA.
Horizon looks like a very good game.
BUT BOTW looks insanely Good.
When was the last time that a game was nominated to replace OoT as the Best of all Time videogame.??
If you people keep this comparison going on the only output will be very very bad for horizon.
ZELDA will have horizon for breakfast.
Retromelon
Member
Your username is wolflink so your opinions on this matter are immediately suspect
So if I get banned he better get banned too because all I did was reciprocate
In hindsight I should not have typed that last sentence, but let the record show that he started it, and I got a little heated
So if I get banned he better get banned too because all I did was reciprocate
humansarehorses
Member
Franz Brötchen;226749421 said:
How does Zelda's shit weapon durability make loot interesting? The weapons have severely limited use so instead of wasting time exploring for more weapons with shit durability, why don't I just avoid fodder enemies and the poor combat system entirely?
It's Sticker Star all over again.
AquaWateria
Member
I saw this dumb fighting coming ever since the OP compared Zelda to Horizon. Like cmon you guys are better than this.
Both games look great and that's what matters. Only time will tell if they're actually good games when they release.
Both games look great and that's what matters. Only time will tell if they're actually good games when they release.
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