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Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread

I convinced a friend who'd never watched competitive melee to watch the top 8 at evo. He loved it once Hbox stopped the ineffective ledge camping.

Time to bully him into getting good at melee alongside me. Then we gotta see what the new england smash scene is like....

The smash multiverse

I lol'd too.

I look forward to reading Crisis at Infinite Evos when the continuity grows too overwhelming.
 

emb

Member
Anybody want to give me a rough idea of the things I should prioritize outside the basics? I tried shino stalling a little, seems like that is pretty easy to learn.
Maybe it falls under the basics, but definitely work on tech chasing. You can do it mostly on reaction. Down throw, look at them, jab if you see the green flash, then if they tech re-grab. It's hard to be consistent with though. If you have 20xx, it's a great thing to practice.
Super smash con reg is over or almost over, does anyone know who the notable players going are.
Yeah, I have no idea who's entering. I think PP and Hbox have both said 'maybe' at some point. I kinda doubt the bigger names will be there with it right after Evo.

I'll see you guys there though. :p
 

ec0ec0

Member
why can't i forget that this EVO happened!? ;_; it still hurts.

I'm not even a mango fan (go mew2king!!), but i disliked this top 8. It's melee, so it obviously had some great moments, but, overall, it was disappointing.

At times, top 8 felt like i was just watching armada vs hungrybox :p I don't find armada's fox particularly entertaining to watch in that matchup. Generally, that's not a huge problem because it's exciting to watch hungrybox trying to catch those campy foxes (b,b,b,b,b,b > up thow > upair :/). However, for some unknown reason, hungrybox ruined everything. What annoyed me wasn't that hungrybox decided to camp, it's that it was both frustating and boring to watch him throwing away any lead that he got by going to the ledge. It could be seen right at the start of some matches: match starts, hungrybox kills armada, then he goes to the ledge, eats percent, and finally dies without having used what remained of his first stock... ?? Lead wasted.

Let's forget about mango for a second. PPMD was kinda disappointing and he hadn't played against hungrybox's puff in a looong time. Personally, i was confident that hungrybox was going to crush both him and plup in losers, so that hungrybox could lose to armada a second time xD That's one of the reasons why i was disappointed with the result of hungrybox's match against mango.

Then there's the mango vs hungrybox match. I would have been perfectly ok with mango losing, if i had felt that hungrybox actually defeated mango. All he did was winning on his counter pick. At that point, the score did say 1-1, but tha's not telling the whole story. Then he had to play on mango's counterpick and, frankly, from what we saw, it was painfully obvious that mango would have won without the second SD.

Had mango advanced, top 8 could have been saved. Like i previously said, i didn't think that plup nor ppmd were going to have a close set with hungrybox (conveniently, they didn't :p 2-0 and 3-0 respectively). However, Mango vs plup or mango vs ppmd would have probably been more back and forth. So i think that, without hungrybox, the losers bracket matches would have been way better + plup and ppmd would have had a bigger chance of playing armada and giving us a more entertaining/less repetitive grand final. Also, mango vs armada would have been amazing.

The worst part of all this is that i don't know if it was the best who won or not. And i don't think that it's that unfair to say that. Last year, it was really dissapointing that we didn't have a chance to see mango vs armada. However, unlike this year with mango vs hungrybox, hungrybox took armadas stocks by himself, two times (he didn't sit down and watched his opponent kill himself :p). First in a best of 3 and then in a best of 5. So, last year, it was easier to accept that we weren't going to see more of armada. This year, it felt like we didn't even have a chance to see mango (although, in reality, we had two, as he lost to both plup and hungrybox).

To me, this top 8 felt like a huge missed opportunity. I'm starting to sound like a mango fan, so hopefully mew2king comes back soon ;D
 

Lucumo

Member
However, unlike this year with mango vs hungrybox, hungrybox outplayed armada last year. He clearly beated him, two times (he didn't sit down and watched his opponent kill himself :p). First in a best of 3 and then in a best of 5. So, last year, it was easier to accept that we weren't going to see more of armada.

What Evo did you watch? It was:

2-1 (0-2, 2-0, 3-0) - this had a 3-stock advantage which could count
and
3-2 (0-1, 0-3, 1-0, 2-0, 1-0) - even stock

3-stock advantage over 8 games isn't "clearly beaten".
 

ec0ec0

Member
What Evo did you watch? It was:

2-1 (0-2, 2-0, 3-0) - this had a 3-stock advantage which could count
and
3-2 (0-1, 0-3, 1-0, 2-0, 1-0) - even stock

3-stock advantage over 8 games isn't "clearly beaten".

i'm sorry if i wasn't clear enough. Read again what you quoted.

What i was trying to do was to compare hungrybox winning against armada (i.e. taking armadas's stocks by himself in not only one, but two sets) vs against mango (watching mango kill himself :p). Maybe i didn't use the appropiate words. I said that he "clearly beated armada" because, well, he was the one who took armada's stocks :p On the other hand, i don't think that he "clearly beated mango", as it was fairly obvious that mango would have won without one of those SDs.

I wasn't trying to say that hungrybox destroyed armada or anything like that, just that his win against armada was a more "standard" win, if that makes sense.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Maybe it falls under the basics, but definitely work on tech chasing. You can do it mostly on reaction. Down through, look at them, jab if you see the green flash, then if they tech re-grab. It's hard to be consistent with though. If you have 20xx, it's a great thing to practice.

I could do pretty okay with techs but jab regrab is hard. CPU keeps getting get-up attacks in, so I don't know if my jab timing is off or I just need to grab after the jab faster.
 

Lucumo

Member
i'm sorry if i wasn't clear enough. Read again what you quoted.

What i was trying to do was to compare hungrybox winning against armada (i.e. taking armadas's stocks by himself in not only one, but two sets) vs against mango (watching mango kill himself :p). Maybe i didn't use the appropiate words. I said that he "clearly beated armada" because, well, he was the one who took armada's stocks :p On the other hand, i don't think that he "clearly beated mango", as it was fairly obvious that mango would have one without one of those SDs.

I wasn't trying to say that hungrybox destroyed armada or anything like that, just that his win against armada was a more "standard" win, if that makes sense.

Now I get what you mean. Yep, was definitely the wrong term then because "outplaying" and "clearly beating" means something more along the lines of dominating. Because of that I had several question marks over my head.
But yeah, I agree with you.
 

Pappasman

Member
Evo 2015 continuing the Evo tradition of being one of the worst Melee top 8's since Melee's revival. I'm happy for Armada, but damn top 32 was way more exciting than top 8. PPMD and Axe played kinda bad, Mango buster'd it up, and Leffen couldn't even summon half of the energy he had from the last 3 majors. Hbox has that godlike Evo luck where the only tournament he can perform at is the biggest one lmao.

If I was in charge of a Melee rebalance Jigglypuff wouldn't even be in the game anymore.

Buff Samus, Link/YL, Yoshi,
Remove Jiggs
 

Anth0ny

Member
Evo 2015 continuing the Evo tradition of being one of the worst Melee top 8's since Melee's revival. I'm happy for Armada, but damn top 32 was way more exciting than top 8. PPMD and Axe played kinda bad, Mango buster'd it up, and Leffen couldn't even summon half of the energy he had from the last 3 majors. Hbox has that godlike Evo luck where the only tournament he can perform at is the biggest one lmao.

If I was in charge of a Melee rebalance Jigglypuff wouldn't even be in the game anymore.

Buff Samus, Link/YL, Yoshi,
Remove Jiggs

It's amazing how much worse Evo top 8 is compared to the other majors we have throughout the year. I wonder why that is. Nerves? 2/3?
 

emb

Member
I could do pretty okay with techs but jab regrab is hard. CPU keeps getting get-up attacks in, so I don't know if my jab timing is off or I just need to grab after the jab faster.
The jab should force a regular get up if it hits. You can see the timing at the start of this video. I've seen people end up rolling left and right out of it somehow, but I don't think ever doing get up attacks.

Are you sure the jab is hitting in those cases? There's definitely a bit of vulnerability before they can go straight into the get up attack. Either way, it actually might be better just to wait it out instead of going for the jab. If you watch Druggedfox vs Leffen from Evo, that looks like what he's doing. Waiting for the getup option whether he techs or not. It also helps to get used to shielding the get up attacks only when you see them come out. I've been told there's pretty much always time to react to it, but it's tricky for me to get the hang of playing by reaction at all.
 

Lazulic

Member
the big question from this weekend is are you pro or anti-throwing-your-fifth-place-medal-into-the-crowd

i think its pretty funny
 

Tomohawk

Member
Evo 2015 continuing the Evo tradition of being one of the worst Melee top 8's since Melee's revival. I'm happy for Armada, but damn top 32 was way more exciting than top 8. PPMD and Axe played kinda bad, Mango buster'd it up, and Leffen couldn't even summon half of the energy he had from the last 3 majors. Hbox has that godlike Evo luck where the only tournament he can perform at is the biggest one lmao.

If I was in charge of a Melee rebalance Jigglypuff wouldn't even be in the game anymore.

Buff Samus, Link/YL, Yoshi,
Remove Jiggs

I don't think luck had much to do with hbox doing well at evo, if i recall correctly tafo said Hbox was outperforming Mango this year. Jiggly puff isn't too bad to watch, unless shes up against a campy player. Also I would buff Ness, Bowser, Dk, Ganon, captain falcon and Icies on top of the ones you mentioned.

Edit:
that was mango as fuck

I liked it. look at it from his perspective. first place or nothing.

I think its something only mango could get away with, if leffen or someone else did it, I doubt people would be as understanding.
 

TrickRoom

Member
match starts, hungrybox kills armada, then he goes to the ledge, eats percent, and finally dies without having used what remained of his first stock... ?? Lead wasted.

See, this still perplexes me ever since he first pulled this out at FC Return. He beat Armada while using that strategy, but it didn't seem like it was because of the strategy. He'd just carry Armada across the stage into oblivion the old fashioned way after coming back, and it'd feel like "well, then what was all that for?". Superstition, perhaps?

I'm glad he did away with that strategy by the time Grand Finals rolled over, but you could really tell that the crowd carried over the bad first impression and it just kept riding.
 

Anth0ny

Member
How do you rank the top six after Evo? And did Evo change how you would have ranked them before?

Personally I'd probably say:

1. Armada
2. Mango
3. PPMD
4. Leffen
5. Hbox
6. M2K

Armada is the best in the world after winning Evo, nuff said. Mango has had a meh 2015 but his past accomplishments puts him no lower than #2. PPMD, while he hasn't attended many tournaments this year, won Apex and placed #3 at Evo. Leffen killed it going in to Evo, and placed very well at Apex, but somewhat disappointed at Evo. Nonetheless, I don't think you can argue against placing him above Hbox and M2K at this point. Hbox went off at Evo but has been outclassed by the 4 players above him at every other tournament this year. M2K is injured, which unfortunately puts him at the bottom of the top 6 at this point.
 

xezuru

Member
You guys are crazy, in the Top 6:
1) Leffen
2) Armada
3) Mango
4) PPMD
5) m2k
6) Hbox

I'm not even a Leffen fan, but his consistently and average overall play have been far above everyone in the realm, especially within the summer split. Every tournament he was consistently pushing the brink on what fox should do and does in all scenarios, and while Armada and Mango have the experience, that advantage is minimal and shrinking as time goes by. Mango proved how much of a buster he is for not putting real work in and just trying to crunch whenever it fits, similarly PPMD showed what goes wrong with his monk exile with some really unfortunate play, although mechanically sound. I still find m2k shell of a former shell easily instills more fear on an average basis than hbox, which played pretty good this evo, but he really didn't do anything particularly fantastic or unexpected of his normal puff punish game.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
I wouldn't put Leffen over Armada because Leffen isn't anywhere near as consistent. Leffen cracks, he drops games and sets he shouldn't, his matchup knowledge has holes (see his struggles against Plup's Samus) while Armada doesn't, or at least not nearly as much. When was the last time Armada lost to a non-god (+Leffen if you don't count him as a god yet)? Unless he dropped a set in one of the tournaments this summer I didn't get to watch, I'm pretty sure it has literally been years.

I can't really see anyone except Armada on top right now. 2-4 is hard since PPMD doesn't play much, Mango was and can be amazing but hasn't been consistent lately, and Leffen is working his way up. Hbox and M2K have been trending downward, I think the two of them are solid 5/6.
 

emb

Member
I wouldn't put Leffen over Armada because Leffen isn't anywhere near as consistent. Leffen cracks, he drops games and sets he shouldn't, his matchup knowledge has holes (see his struggles against Plup's Samus) while Armada doesn't, or at least not nearly as much. When was the last time Armada lost to a non-god (+Leffen if you don't count him as a god yet)? Unless he dropped a set in one of the tournaments this summer I didn't get to watch, I'm pretty sure it has literally been years.

I can't really see anyone except Armada on top right now. 2-4 is hard since PPMD doesn't play much, Mango was and can be amazing but hasn't been consistent lately, and Leffen is working his way up. Hbox and M2K have been trending downward, I think the two of them are solid 5/6.
If Leffen counts, then I think that happened a few times this summer, and throughout the past year. I think there were two or three instances right before Evo of Swedish winner's finals (and usually grands), with Leffen taking each tournament. If we don't count Leffen (and imo we shouldn't, it's very much a top 6 now), then I think the one before that was Silent Specter in 2010ish at Pound IV (V?). I've seen plenty bring him close, but he always seems to clutch it out.

My order would be:
1. Armada - Consistency king, and I'd bet on him in a head to head against anyone.
2. PPMD - PP has shown he's still a solid player and can hang with the best, but it's hard to make a real judgement when we see him play about twice a year. Has only dropped sets within the top 6 this year, but did look shaky in some others.
3. Leffen - Beats Armada more often than anyone else, but also has losses to Plup, Axe, Hugs, (SFAT?) this year. Recent string of victories has made him look strong.
4. Hbox - Can't seem to win an event this year (he did take Paragon, only big one I could find). One Fox or the other always takes him out, typically. After Evo, the only reason I'd put him below Mango is legacy record. I had Hbox at 5 to start with, but looking at it, his more recent results seem stronger than the kid's. Dropped sets to Lucky, Westballz, PewpewU this year.
5. Mango - Always a threat. Rarely winning majors this year (he did win BAM7 and Press Start, which I initially forgot about). Been beaten by Westballz, Plup, Shroomed, Axe this year.
6. Mew2King - Can't count on him to beat any of the other 5, often gets upset by players outside this group (well, it seemed often; guess it hasn't actually happened that much lately). I love his play, but I don't even know if I'd say he's a top player any more. In another year or so, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Plup or Axe or PewpewU or Shroomed or SFAT or Westballz here instead.
 

Codeblue

Member
Mango has looked so sloppy this year. I'd probably place him 4th or 5th. I can't say how I'd rank since it's been forever since we've seen M2K or PPMD play more than a couple of sets once in a blue moon.

Probably:

Armada
Leffen
PPMD
HBox
Mango
M2K

Mango kills HBox, but I feel like he hasn't been as consistent against everyone else this year.
 

xezuru

Member
Honestly I think it's a bit disingenuous on both sides to reference plup vs leffen as people are doing.
To me, that wasn't a matchup problem more than Plup playing insane in that Evo, throughout the weekend plup was playing a fantastic game, but that certain match against leffen features some of the most hardcore projectile reads I've seen since peak armada peach snipes, and it was happening on back-to-back rewind. Hungrybox I can understand though, that was a bit of a ???

Never take anything away from Armada, but to be honest, he only had to face primarily Hbox, and 3-0'ed a super shaky PPMD. Otto and PPU were there as well, but honestly they just aren't at the highest cusp yet. He took it home hard, but honestly I feel he kinda lucked out, same as most winners Evo runs. Armada Evo Run and Useful EVO pools info Site.

Mango I could kind of tell semi-midearly into the weekend that he probably wasn't gonna win this year, I couldn't have ever guessed in a thousand years he would lose to Hbox, but he had some unfortunate plays and his lack of real grind made the worst mango scenario happen.
 

Anth0ny

Member
I think we can all agree that the top 6 is still suuuuuuuuuuuuuper close. Anyone can beat anyone on any given day, and that's exciting.
 

Lucumo

Member
Welp, if everyone shares his ranking...:

1. Armada
2. Leffen
3. Mango (he only needs to try harder)
4. PPMD (no idea why everyone is so impressed, wouldn't put him above 4th)
5. Hbox
6. M2K
 

Jigolo

Member
Welp, if everyone shares his ranking...:

1. Armada
2. Leffen
3. Mango (he only needs to try harder)
4. PPMD (no idea why everyone is so impressed, wouldn't put him above 4th)
5. Hbox
6. M2K

This is my same list. Who won the HTC MM at EVO between Leffen and Mango tho? I completely missed that and haven't seen anything about it.
 

Mumei

Member
This is my same list. Who won the HTC MM at EVO between Leffen and Mango tho? I completely missed that and haven't seen anything about it.

Mango was down 0-2 and swept the next 3.
Leffen suicided (intentionally) on the last stock.
 

Pappasman

Member
Ya the thing that puts Armada above Leffen for me is that its very easy to see when Leffen gets inside his own head and starts to crumble. That doesn't happen to Armada. His focus is truly admirable.

I think we can all agree that the top 6 is still suuuuuuuuuuuuuper close. Anyone can beat anyone on any given day, and that's exciting.

For sure. And I'm especially excited to see the A tier (Axe, PPU, Plup, West, Shroomed, SFAT, etc.) getting better and better with each day.
 

KimiNewt

Scored 3/100 on an Exam
So I'm running a (relatively) large tournament in Tel-Aviv, Israel this Friday. I doubt there are any players out there I don't know, but if there are-- message me or find us on FB!

Current entrants stands at about 22 for Melee (and a little under that for Guilty Gear & SF combined). This is kind of cool because there hasn't been a Melee tourney here since about 2007.
In fact, this is the first Melee tourney ever to be streamed or to have money prizes. We're trying really hard to "revive" or rather create a scene.
If any of you would like to watch the stream (and hopefully critique us), there will be a stream starting about 10:30 AM IDT (UTC+3). I'd imagine the scrubs will be eliminated by 11:30. I'll post the link before it starts.

Players-wise, we all kinda suck (the tournament is called the No Punish Zone) aside from four top players who are from the old community. Most of the new player's aim is to beat one of those at least.
 

Anth0ny

Member
So I'm running a (relatively) large tournament in Tel-Aviv, Israel this Friday. I doubt there are any players out there I don't know, but if there are-- message me or find us on FB!

Current entrants stands at about 22 for Melee (and a little under that for Guilty Gear & SF combined). This is kind of cool because there hasn't been a Melee tourney here since about 2007.
In fact, this is the first Melee tourney ever to be streamed or to have money prizes. We're trying really hard to "revive" or rather create a scene.
If any of you would like to watch the stream (and hopefully critique us), there will be a stream starting about 10:30 AM IDT (UTC+3). I'd imagine the scrubs will be eliminated by 11:30. I'll post the link before it starts.

Players-wise, we all kinda suck (the tournament is called the No Punish Zone) aside from four top players who are from the old community. Most of the new player's aim is to beat one of those at least.

This is awesome. Always good to hear the community expanding around the world. Good luck with the tournament, you scene can only improve from here!



I know everyone called M2K the robot, but I think that title applies far more to Armada. Dude is an emotionless killer and ridiculously consistent.
 

Pappasman

Member
Is Melee the only fighting game to get over 100k stream viewers at a non-EVO event?

I'm trying to think of times that an FGC event cracked 100k but iirc even Capcom Cup didn't put them over.


So I'm running a (relatively) large tournament in Tel-Aviv, Israel this Friday. I doubt there are any players out there I don't know, but if there are-- message me or find us on FB!

Current entrants stands at about 22 for Melee (and a little under that for Guilty Gear & SF combined). This is kind of cool because there hasn't been a Melee tourney here since about 2007.
In fact, this is the first Melee tourney ever to be streamed or to have money prizes. We're trying really hard to "revive" or rather create a scene.
If any of you would like to watch the stream (and hopefully critique us), there will be a stream starting about 10:30 AM IDT (UTC+3). I'd imagine the scrubs will be eliminated by 11:30. I'll post the link before it starts.

Players-wise, we all kinda suck (the tournament is called the No Punish Zone) aside from four top players who are from the old community. Most of the new player's aim is to beat one of those at least.

This is awesome. Good luck!
 

xezuru

Member
Infantile is the perfect word to describe all the people who gave him severe backlash for ledge camping.

It's a competition first and foremost, and it should be expected that competitors would take every single step to get the edge and achieve the win.
That said, once Hbox semi-retires, i'll never have to see that shit again, hue. inb4 m2k shino stalls all over the next 10 tournies.
 
It's a competition first and foremost, and it should be expected that competitors would take every single step to get the edge and achieve the win.
That said, once Hbox semi-retires, i'll never have to see that shit again, hue. inb4 m2k shino stalls all over the next 10 tournies.
Then Hbox should have stopped ledge camping sooner, because it cost him :p
 

Anth0ny

Member
I like when he's mad.

Too bad he didn't win the set, though

All I imagined in his head:

uEA9dyz.gif
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Great Daily Dot interview with Hbox

Infantile is the perfect word to describe all the people who gave him severe backlash for ledge camping.

Wait wait wait Hbox is coming to Bumfuck, Alabama? North Alabama? Here? That's cool. I don't know that we have anyone that would be remotely competitive against him, but we do have a scene that is getting 30-50+ people at monthlies depending on the time of year.


Also, them talking about Melee HD is scary. Balance patches would honestly hurt more than help at this point.

Mine:

1. Armada
2. Leffen
3. Mango
4. Hbox
5. PPMD
6. M2K

I thought you leaving off M2K was intentional and you were saying "#6 is ???."
 
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