I don't want Melee HD but if Nintendo ever wants money, they would probably release something like this.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Anth0ny
- Start date
I don't want Melee HD but if Nintendo ever wants money, they would probably release something like this.
They have years of data to work with on how to balance. If they screw it up more than it is now, then they must be grossly incompetent.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
ehhhhhhhh never bet on experience trumping stupidity.
The PAL and other updates were kind of a mixed bag. You have cool stuff like making Fox's Up B shorter, or Falcon's gentleman easier. Then you have the annoying stuff, like Marth's weight changing, Falco/Marth spikes nerfed, Fox's up smash nerfed, Bowser's flame cancel gone.
I don't trust it to get better.
The bigger deal probably are the things that would come with it. Online balance patches, DLC, and online multiplayer. The first two I want absolutely nothing to do with.
The online play would be nice I guess. I would say I prefer going out and having to find people to play/form communities, but I recognize: some people don't have the community in their area, online already exists via emu, and people might get curious about locals after playing online. I think it would do more good than bad.
If they talked to people in the scene i think it could easily end up better, but if they do it in a bubble I could see it ending up badly. With smash 4 atleast, they have shown somewhat that their willing to listen so I'm hopeful. Also I agree with the online balance patches stance, I like how in melee you have to figure how to deal with stuff to some extent.
Considering how clingy we are to Melee exactly as it is... if Nintendo ever did decide to rebalance Melee with an HD re-release, they should play it safe and include both the original balance and a "remixed" mode.
Honestly, if Melee HD does happen, and everything is re-balanced, I think the community will move on as long as the movement and pace of the game doesn't feel different. Fox can get nerfed, but if we can't l cancel, chain grab or even waveshine, the community would probably be hesitant to move on.
Honestly, if Melee HD does happen, and everything is re-balanced, I think the community will move on as long as the movement and pace of the game doesn't feel different. Fox can get nerfed, but if we can't l cancel, chain grab or even waveshine, the community would probably be hesitant to move on.
Stream will be on http://www.twitch.tv/kiminewt at 10:30 UTC+3 (so 11 hours from now).
If you plan on tuning in, you may have to wait ~one hour for the serious matches to start after all the casuals and scrubs get eliminated.
theprodigy
Member
so how has PewPewU done the last few majors?
MLG Anaheim-9th
Evo 2014-9th
Apex 2015-9th
CEO 2015-9th
Evo 2015-9th
no wonder why he signed with CLG Kappa
MLG Anaheim-9th
Evo 2014-9th
Apex 2015-9th
CEO 2015-9th
Evo 2015-9th
no wonder why he signed with CLG Kappa
Someday he will be known as the second man with the clockw0rk curse.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I agree, to the point of saying that if they were to do a Melee HD they should include three different "version options," NTSC, PAL, and HD (assuming a rebalance). You can make good arguments about both PAL and NTSC being the foundation, seeing as PAL is "newer," but NTSC is the standard in the (by far) most dominant Melee region. If there is already a version switch, might as well go all the way (yeah, there are different NTSC versions, but even most players don't know the differences since they are so minor).
It doesn't really matter though, since Melee HD is almost certainly never going to exist.
And Sheik's boost grab is like magic. But harder than JCG.
As some one with terrible hands I don't want to l-cancel lols.
I don't think most Melee players are that attached to the input (at least I'm not, some probably make the argument for it). Rather, the result of it.
If a new version came out, all things the same, but aerials of non L-Cancelled lag, and there's no way to cancel that? Yeah, would be a big step down. If everything was automatically L-Cancelled all the time with now input? I'd call it an improvement.
Knowing Nintendo, I'd expect the former if anything. "We want to make sure the game plays at a pace that's fun for everyone" (To clarify, I'm not against Nintendo's generally policy of trying to expand the audience and be inclusive. I just think they misjudge sometimes.)
I don't know if you guys watch the MIOM podcast but the most recent episode they discussed having 3 stock 6 minute Bo5 for Melee at FGC events because of timeblocks. And Juggleguy was pro-3 stock because of the logistics of the situation.
I actually have been more pro-3 stock 6 minute if it means we can get a Bo5 top 8 or even better Bo5 top 32. The main issues they discussed were simply community backlash because it's something foreign to them, but I think that if it is done only at FGC events it would make sense. For future Evos if we start having 2000+ Melee tournaments (which is very possible) I wouldn't be surprised if they went that way. Also I feel like there is a stigma to timeouts in Melee compared to every other fighting game and maybe 6 minutes would help lessen that backlash.
Link to the podcast. They start talking about ruleset discussion around the 32 minute mark.
I actually have been more pro-3 stock 6 minute if it means we can get a Bo5 top 8 or even better Bo5 top 32. The main issues they discussed were simply community backlash because it's something foreign to them, but I think that if it is done only at FGC events it would make sense. For future Evos if we start having 2000+ Melee tournaments (which is very possible) I wouldn't be surprised if they went that way. Also I feel like there is a stigma to timeouts in Melee compared to every other fighting game and maybe 6 minutes would help lessen that backlash.
Link to the podcast. They start talking about ruleset discussion around the 32 minute mark.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I don't like 3 stock Bo3, and I don't like the idea of a format change for stocks mid-tournament. If they could run the 3 stock, Bo5 ruleset from start to finish I'd be fine with it, but having 3 stock Bo3 for everything prior to top 32, or switching from 4 stocks to 3 for top 32, I'm against it.
I still stand by an auto-l-cancel on hit, manual on miss/shield. Player is rewarded for hitting their opponent(/punished for missing) with the opportunity to redeem themselves by l canceling manually.
No option to lower/remove landing lag would suck though, I don't like it in Brawl or Smash 4.
I still stand by an auto-l-cancel on hit, manual on miss/shield. Player is rewarded for hitting their opponent(/punished for missing) with the opportunity to redeem themselves by l canceling manually.
No option to lower/remove landing lag would suck though, I don't like it in Brawl or Smash 4.
And I'm not even good.
Eh, to me, L-cancelling is the other side of the coin to something like Parrying in 3rd Strike. In all intensive purposes, there's absolutely no reason to not parry a move (barring literally one insanely specific scenario) to defend it and cancel all block stun, but it typically needs situational planning, timing, and knowledge of what's coming. Similarly people always take the idea of L-cancelling to the extreme like all pros get 100% cancel rate, which even they don't, like a common scenario of wanting to do a rising aerial to land on a platform but then you need enough game knowledge to know how much jump you get out of it to get a perfect placement of when to fast fall, and then l cancel instantly (or not depending on if you hit a shield or person). Like, parrying you can in essence bait it out, as timing between hit shields and wiffs are different enough to make you fail parrying which is why wave dashing back an aerial opens up the possibility to punish, or even a cooler scenario is ice-climbers having two shields meaning you have to take into account 2 sets of blockstun before you L-cancel. The problem with auto L-cancelling is to me, losing that player accountability and making it automatic makes things like Fox pressure lose almost all the risk in the reward and having things like drill shines automatic is probably one of the most disgusting notions.
That said, what I want to alleviate problems with L-cancelling is taking ideas from Project M and going a bit further. L-cancelling should have a flash indicator similar to Project M for successful actions, but it should also have a distinct Fail flash, like an semi-longer red flash to know a failed L-cancel occurred. With this, to give more risk to the reward in the scenario, failed L-cancels should make the move have 1.1~1.5x more recovery from base non L-canceled, the inverse of the L-cancel to make punishes more prominent and easier for obvious user error. I also have no qualms about giving 1-2 more frames of leniency on L-Canceling in general.
That said, what I want to alleviate problems with L-cancelling is taking ideas from Project M and going a bit further. L-cancelling should have a flash indicator similar to Project M for successful actions, but it should also have a distinct Fail flash, like an semi-longer red flash to know a failed L-cancel occurred. With this, to give more risk to the reward in the scenario, failed L-cancels should make the move have 1.1~1.5x more recovery from base non L-canceled, the inverse of the L-cancel to make punishes more prominent and easier for obvious user error. I also have no qualms about giving 1-2 more frames of leniency on L-Canceling in general.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Any flash for l canceling should be togglable. I also think a fail flash is more significant than a success flash. I just keep the fail flash on in 20XX, since I care less about when I succeed than when I screw up.
Fail flash also helps learn l canceling better because it's constantly reminding you that you aren't doing it.
Fail flash also helps learn l canceling better because it's constantly reminding you that you aren't doing it.
I feel even the success flash is important for both a learning tool and for viewers. When I explain and show people who aren't really super into melee at a competitive level, sometimes people mention L-cancelling and they have no idea what that is no matter how you explain it because they don't have the game right in front of them to play and tell the difference. Flashes for success and fails makes it have something for noobs to actually see but more importantly it allows commentators to explain failed ones and contestants to see the failed ones visually to capitalize.
Super Smash Con Notable Melee entrants:
Leffen, M2K, Axe, Westballz, MacD, Plup, SFAT,
Hugs, Bladewise, Azen, Wizzy, The Moon, DJ Nintendo,
ChuDat, Duck, Gahtzu, Mike Haze, Laudandus, Chillin,
Toph, Nintendude, PC Chris, Reno, Cactuar, Zhu, Colbol
Smash 4:
ZeRo, Nairo, Mr. R, Dabuz, ESAM, MVD, NAKAT,
False, DKWill, Mew2King, SS (Shane Bruce),
Bloodcross, Mr. E, Fatality, Raptor, Ribs, Angel Cortes
dammit m2k
Looking real good for both Smash 4 and Melee.
I actually love tournaments that don't have all the gods, but do have a lot of the top 5-10 contested players. Axe vs. Westballz, Plup vs. either Westballz or Axe, MacD has been on the come up recently as well. This should really give a much better idea where everyone ranks currently. Crazy more "gods" aren't here either because of the fact that this tournament has a good pot bonus.
As for Smash 4 having all the top players at early tournaments is good because of how young the game still is. Also hoping most of the top players will be repping their sponsors by Smashcon...
theprodigy
Member
damn it xezuru, you made that post while I was typing up the same thing! oh well, I have more players than you 
64 Singles (disclaimer: my knowledge of 64 players is trash compared to the other 3)
Fireblaster, Revan, Star King, SuPeRbOoMfAn, Tacos
64 Doubles
Fireblaster/Revan, SuPeRbOoMfAn/Tacos
Melee Singles
Bladewise, Azen, CIZ, Wizzrobe, ChuDat, The Moon, M2K, Cyrain, DJ Nintendo, DoH, Duck, Gahtzu, HugS, Mikehaze, Juggleguy, dizzkidboogie, Kalamazhu, Laudandus, Chillin, SFAT, Toph, MacD, Nintendude, Milkman, PC Chris, Plup, Reno, Cactuar, Zhu, Colbol, Leffen, Westballz, KJH, Prince Abu, Redd, Vist
Melee Doubles
Azen/Chillin, Bladewise/CIZ, M2K/Wizzrobe, The Moon/DJ Nintendo, Cyrain/Milkman, SFAT/DoH, Duck/Prince Abu, Colbol/Gahtzu, Plank/Hat, Leffen/MacD, Nintendude/Redd, Reno/Vist, Zhu/Cactuar, KJH/Kalamazhu
Brawl Singles
M2K, Dabuz, Toronto Joe, False, Mr. R, NAKAT, Seagull Joe, Nairo, ESAM, MVD, V115 (he didn't enter Smash 4? what), Junebug
Brawl Doubles
NAKAT/False, ESAM/MVD, Nairo/V115
Smash 4 Singles
Bloodcross, M2K, Cyberman65 (shoutouts to SmashGAF!), Dabuz, Toronto Joe, False, Angel Cortes, Raptor, Mr. R, NAKAT, Seagull Joe, Nabster92 (shoutouts to SmashGAF again!), Nairo, ESAM, MVD, SS, Poke, DKWill, Mr. E, GimR, Logic, Tantalus, ZeRo
Smash 4 Doubles
Cyberman65/Nabster92 (G A F B O Y S), Dabuz/DKWill, NAKAT/False, ESAM/MVD, V115/Poke
note: many teams aren't finalized yet
64 Singles (disclaimer: my knowledge of 64 players is trash compared to the other 3)
Fireblaster, Revan, Star King, SuPeRbOoMfAn, Tacos
64 Doubles
Fireblaster/Revan, SuPeRbOoMfAn/Tacos
Melee Singles
Bladewise, Azen, CIZ, Wizzrobe, ChuDat, The Moon, M2K, Cyrain, DJ Nintendo, DoH, Duck, Gahtzu, HugS, Mikehaze, Juggleguy, dizzkidboogie, Kalamazhu, Laudandus, Chillin, SFAT, Toph, MacD, Nintendude, Milkman, PC Chris, Plup, Reno, Cactuar, Zhu, Colbol, Leffen, Westballz, KJH, Prince Abu, Redd, Vist
Melee Doubles
Azen/Chillin, Bladewise/CIZ, M2K/Wizzrobe, The Moon/DJ Nintendo, Cyrain/Milkman, SFAT/DoH, Duck/Prince Abu, Colbol/Gahtzu, Plank/Hat, Leffen/MacD, Nintendude/Redd, Reno/Vist, Zhu/Cactuar, KJH/Kalamazhu
Brawl Singles
M2K, Dabuz, Toronto Joe, False, Mr. R, NAKAT, Seagull Joe, Nairo, ESAM, MVD, V115 (he didn't enter Smash 4? what), Junebug
Brawl Doubles
NAKAT/False, ESAM/MVD, Nairo/V115
Smash 4 Singles
Bloodcross, M2K, Cyberman65 (shoutouts to SmashGAF!), Dabuz, Toronto Joe, False, Angel Cortes, Raptor, Mr. R, NAKAT, Seagull Joe, Nabster92 (shoutouts to SmashGAF again!), Nairo, ESAM, MVD, SS, Poke, DKWill, Mr. E, GimR, Logic, Tantalus, ZeRo
Smash 4 Doubles
Cyberman65/Nabster92 (G A F B O Y S), Dabuz/DKWill, NAKAT/False, ESAM/MVD, V115/Poke
note: many teams aren't finalized yet
Simplifying inputs makes the game more accessible. Making L-cancels automatic doesn't really take much away from the decision making and would be better served with being replaced by something else. Melee has enough input as it is, I think most smash players hands would be thankful for it.
fredrancour
Member
Some people take a view of competitive gaming focused entirely on decision-making. Less landing lag = always better= the answer to "do i want to l-cancel?" is always yes= no evaluation of potential value of different actions is present = only thing potentially stopping an l-cancel on a competitie level would be reaction speed, no player ignorance= l-cancelling is a burden and not a source of additional value.
I still haven't actually decided what side I'm on. This analysis is just based on checking out stuff people post on gaf.
I disagree. It doesn't make the game more accessible because it's not a necessity to use to play in general or at lower levels.
Ok, didn't know people like that existed to a larger degree. I'm definitely on the side which welcomes high skill ceilings because it makes good and great players stand out more. I come from the background of Broodwar and everything there was about skill ceilings. It's the reason why TBLS existed which then transitioned into only Flash and Jaedong standing on top. Eventually, Blizzard mostly killed Broodwar to force everyone to Starcraft 2 which is a really dumbed down game in that regard. Needless to say, many didn't like it and eventually came back to Broodwar which is still alive and striving. Broodwar is a different monster than Melee though in the way that it allowed players who focused on macro, micro or decision making to come out on top of the average players. Those who were excellent in all three areas were on top of the top. In melee, the areas are obviously different but in its essence, it's the same.
So our tourney was on yesterday, and if you want you can see some vids here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQVCbTr1RiRzx4OlG_DDEVb3OPYmSOWJ6
I choked completely and lost in pools against a player I really shouldn't have lost to (I played him quite a bit in friendlies and almost never lost, even 4-stocks). I guess I was a bit nervous and was focusing on running the tourney.
I actually go the same number of points as him in the pool, and we had to do a tie breaker.
He was talking about being able to beat me once, and we were the only tie-breaker so most of the venue was watching.
We got to the last stock on Pokemon Stadium, both at over 150%. I hide behind the big pillar and we both are too afraid to do anything so we just wait it out, and as soon as the pillar comes down I get an fsmash to the face and lose. Oh well, better luck next time!
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQVCbTr1RiRzx4OlG_DDEVb3OPYmSOWJ6
I choked completely and lost in pools against a player I really shouldn't have lost to (I played him quite a bit in friendlies and almost never lost, even 4-stocks). I guess I was a bit nervous and was focusing on running the tourney.
I actually go the same number of points as him in the pool, and we had to do a tie breaker.
He was talking about being able to beat me once, and we were the only tie-breaker so most of the venue was watching.
We got to the last stock on Pokemon Stadium, both at over 150%. I hide behind the big pillar and we both are too afraid to do anything so we just wait it out, and as soon as the pillar comes down I get an fsmash to the face and lose. Oh well, better luck next time!
I'm all for getting more people in the door, and competing on equal footing more quickly. There are some nuances to L-cancel timing, but mastering that isn't worth all the people who get frustrated and give up, or who are bad at it and just suck as a result (I imagine both those categories have people, though it's hard to say if making the game that little bit easier would help them at all). It's reducing accessibility for what is, in my eyes, a very small benefit.
Not that I want to sacrifice the game for the sake of less dedicated players... but I think it's a concession that has small enough downsides to be worth it.
At the same time though, it definitely feels really satisfying just to run around the stage throwing out and cancelling aerials. It's just fun to have to move your hands quickly, even.
Congrats on running a successful tournament!
Nerves are hard to get around. I don't know how even, other than just more experience in tournament.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think removing or simplifying L-canceling would lower the skill ceiling in a significant way as long as lag was reduced across the board (rather than just having a lot of lag on almost everything like Brawl/4). Unlike pretty much everything else in the game, there's not a reason not to want to reduce your lag, so it's just an extra input for the sake of having it. (IIRC, z-canceling was originally put in 64 for the computers to use it to "cheat" at high levels).
There is the "but the player might mess up and get punished for it" angle but I don't think that holds much water. They could arbitrarily require the player to hit the Z button within 3 frames of every attack or the attack fails. That would "increase the skill ceiling" in the same way, but it's not meaningful.
There is the "but the player might mess up and get punished for it" angle but I don't think that holds much water. They could arbitrarily require the player to hit the Z button within 3 frames of every attack or the attack fails. That would "increase the skill ceiling" in the same way, but it's not meaningful.
Leaving aside the mechanical logistics to my last post, I honestly think when talking about Melee, specifically, it is detrimental to the game to remove L-Cancelling. If it was a new game, sure, base recovery in general being low is fine in hopes that the developers design the game and characters around this, which Melee was built being fully aware of L-Cancelling, and doesn't fit this scenario. In my eyes, and what I've seen from other players, it IS a factor, thought of and planned against, and it is big reasons why rising aerials, multihit moves, ice climber's double shield, and wiff punish neutral works in the game. Melee is not built for an auto L cancelled world, pretty much any fox pressure and drill shines losing that skill cap is a real threat to the meta. In this, L cancelling requires a barrier, halfing recovery of moves is a very intense and important factor that would be game changing in any game, if it was an FGC game then I could see Meter requirement for it, but this was their answer.
When talking about lowering the skill barrier, specifically for Melee, the L-cancelling argument is kinda useless to me as well. I'm all for lowering the entry field, but L cancelling is not a requirement for playing the game, anyone plays 64 and Melee without it and easily enjoys the game, it's an and1 bonus for knowing the timing for your vertical movement and your opponents space around the move, hit or not. That all said, L-cancelling as a concept if it really was such a barrier of entry, removal would not solve anything. From my experience teaching people, and getting people into Project M who have no Smash experience at all, once they have a visual indicator, they quickly understand and eventually get the timing down, and it was one of the fastest of the mechanics to do so. If any beginner truely stopped playing the game because of L-cancelling, then nothing in the game would be any easier and removing it would do nothing then be one off the list of many other barriers. While L-cancelling was pretty quick to learn to the newcomers, pivoting, crouch canceling, wavedash and wavelanding, ledgedashing, and pretty much everything else destroyed them in weird physics caveats that are nowhere in other games.
Also, it was always intended for player use in Smash 64, even though it was some overpowered bullshit.
When talking about lowering the skill barrier, specifically for Melee, the L-cancelling argument is kinda useless to me as well. I'm all for lowering the entry field, but L cancelling is not a requirement for playing the game, anyone plays 64 and Melee without it and easily enjoys the game, it's an and1 bonus for knowing the timing for your vertical movement and your opponents space around the move, hit or not. That all said, L-cancelling as a concept if it really was such a barrier of entry, removal would not solve anything. From my experience teaching people, and getting people into Project M who have no Smash experience at all, once they have a visual indicator, they quickly understand and eventually get the timing down, and it was one of the fastest of the mechanics to do so. If any beginner truely stopped playing the game because of L-cancelling, then nothing in the game would be any easier and removing it would do nothing then be one off the list of many other barriers. While L-cancelling was pretty quick to learn to the newcomers, pivoting, crouch canceling, wavedash and wavelanding, ledgedashing, and pretty much everything else destroyed them in weird physics caveats that are nowhere in other games.
Also, it was always intended for player use in Smash 64, even though it was some overpowered bullshit.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Surprised my brother a little when he found out I swapped to Sheik. Finally an opportunity to play against an actual person. Things started out a bit ugly, but that wasn't unexpected. Picked up quickly though. By the time we switched to PM, I had won 19 games to his 5. For what it's worth, with Falcon we typically went even, or he would win more games. It's pretty rare for me to come out ahead, especially when he's not "sandbagging" with secondaries.
Played Sheik in PM, throws are different, but otherwise she feels really similar. Started off a little rough again but ended up going 24-4.
So yeah... after maybe a week my Sheik is doing better against my brother than my Falcon was. Hopefully I can expect similarly improved results when I get to go back to a tournament. Work is keeping me from attending the monthly this weekend, couldn't get off for it. Really wish they would start up weeklies, I'd go every week if the time worked for me.
I really really really wish I had recorded it too, because I had a siiiiick punish/combo to take a stock. Not quite a 0-death but it was close. He also had a Sethlon-esque punish to take a stock with Roy one match.
Played Sheik in PM, throws are different, but otherwise she feels really similar. Started off a little rough again but ended up going 24-4.
So yeah... after maybe a week my Sheik is doing better against my brother than my Falcon was. Hopefully I can expect similarly improved results when I get to go back to a tournament. Work is keeping me from attending the monthly this weekend, couldn't get off for it. Really wish they would start up weeklies, I'd go every week if the time worked for me.
I really really really wish I had recorded it too, because I had a siiiiick punish/combo to take a stock. Not quite a 0-death but it was close. He also had a Sethlon-esque punish to take a stock with Roy one match.
As much as I dont like L canceling as a mechanic, I 100% agree.
In general, about balancing a new game, they would not need to modify characters that much. Nerfing Fox's moves like upsmash is unnecesary, Fox should stay mostly the same just adjust some small things to make some matchups easier for the other chars, for example the camping in the Fox vs Jigss matchup: making it so Fox lasers do not auto cancel on landing BUT the lag after firing can be jump canceled on ground, making it so Fox is kind of stuck (but still with some options), and modifying the rollout so its a small aereal aproach (like an aereal spiral arrow from USF4 Decapre). That way the whole cast gets some extra breathing room vs a camping Fox (the Fox player has to stop the lasers earlier to not get caught) and the Jiggs can punish a camping fox much easly if she gets close enough but the rest of the matchup stays mostly unchanged.
Also, some charaters should be balanced thinking about 2v2 first, to create more variety in different game modes.
LucidMomentum
Member
Something I noticed is that Melee skills carry over to PM well, but not always the other way around. I still prefer PM though.
Anyways, long time GAF lurker that can finally post. I play Melee and PM, with Smash 4 and 64 on the side so I don't take them very seriously.
I play Peach and Marth in Melee and Bowser and Ganon in PM. Still sticking with 3.6b Bowser, despite what people say about him. I'll make it work.
We have biweeklies in town and I usually end up top 8, if not top 3 in both games. It depends on when I meet my gatekeepers in brackets though. Registered for Paragon and can't wait to see how I do against more competition!
A fun snipe from the stream on Friday:
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
That's why I practice Melee almost exclusively. I originally picked up PM to play competitively, and trying to play Melee after just practicing PM was a disaster.
Thought about dropping PM entirely since I've switched over to Melee to such an extent, but PM is awesome and I want to help keep it alive even if I am bad at it (it's all about matchups, and I'm not learning it since I'm focusing on Melee).
Thought about dropping PM entirely since I've switched over to Melee to such an extent, but PM is awesome and I want to help keep it alive even if I am bad at it (it's all about matchups, and I'm not learning it since I'm focusing on Melee).
LucidMomentum
Member
Well our local champ usually takes first in melee and top 3 in PM due to his technical skill, but I see what you're saying. I just love the pacing of PM a lot more than Melee, as much as I enjoy them both.
The matchup knowledge becomes a big deal in PM because every character has some sort of trick up their sleeve or option they can use. I got 8th on Friday to a surprise pocket Toon Link because I hadn't played one in months.
I think that's why Plup got so far at EVO, apart from his skills I mean. Some players like Leffen obviously haven't had practice against those lower tier character, despite running into them at Paragon.
Also something to note is at our Biweeklies I play all 4 games, from 64 to Smash 4. It gets weird switching between them sometimes when I have matches waiting for me in all of them. I'm cutting out Smash 4 and side tournaments for Paragon LA though.
As much as I love PM, what keeps Melee alive for me is the absolutely insane edge-guarding game that the meta and mechanics make and keep so thrilling, to me, no other game even comes close in this aspect. People forget that without these shitfaced spacies we wouldn't have the fast fallers that create some of the most insane edgeguard play and metal around forcing it so often. It's pretty much the one thing and my only fault to Project M (besides no lightshielding rip), I still think recoveries are way too strong in that game, honestly I'd prefer it if every character had Marth/Falco tier ehhh okay recoveries. Makes for way better ledgeplay, fuck the complainers who want everything easy, earn the ledge.
All that said, to me PM edges out over Melee by a decent but not huge margin. People complain "If you want Melee why not Melee, and if you want a better Brawl why not just get Smash 4"; hey man, I want options and mobility Melee gave me that, and PM gives me all that Melee gave me, plus mechanics from literally every competitive aspect from 64~Brawl. And yknow, some people like using all those tools and getting to play more than 5 characters viable in the meta,
and move sets retooled with some sweet gear.
Personally, I'm kinda hesitant to get in touch with my local scene, the weekly area not the the monthlies. The drive is still about 30-45 minutes, and as my reward gift and curse, I get to get my ass wooped by Bladewise and sometimes Silent Wolf and stuff? Rip.
All that said, to me PM edges out over Melee by a decent but not huge margin. People complain "If you want Melee why not Melee, and if you want a better Brawl why not just get Smash 4"; hey man, I want options and mobility Melee gave me that, and PM gives me all that Melee gave me, plus mechanics from literally every competitive aspect from 64~Brawl. And yknow, some people like using all those tools and getting to play more than 5 characters viable in the meta,
more like literally all the characters
Personally, I'm kinda hesitant to get in touch with my local scene, the weekly area not the the monthlies. The drive is still about 30-45 minutes, and as my reward gift and curse, I get to get my ass wooped by Bladewise and sometimes Silent Wolf and stuff? Rip.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think we have anyone around here on the level of Bladewise and Silent Wolf, that would just encourage me more if we did. Allows you to set loftier goals.
Not sure who the best players here are. Probably moogle or j00t on a national level?
Not sure who the best players here are. Probably moogle or j00t on a national level?
theprodigy
Member
This isn't really Melee related, but ZeRo joined TSM!
their LoL team isn't dominating NA any more so they picked up another player to dominate another game Kappa
their LoL team isn't dominating NA any more so they picked up another player to dominate another game Kappa
Uh, where did you hear this?
LucidMomentum
Member
There's a guy with a TSM jersey at our biweeklies. He does okay. Not ZeRo okay though.
(I'll show him. I'm getting a Team Secret jersey...)
Here's our best Melee players with bonus me on the mic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_D8-OIQA6I
One of them lost to PPMD at EVO, and the other stayed up too late so he lost in Winner's finals and then Loser's finals of his pool. RIP.
Meanwhile, this is who usually beats me in PM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBl2SorB41A
We're all planning on going to Paragon so I hope to meet some new people to play against
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I kind of wonder why I even bother trying to play when I can't even get a single day off work to go to the local monthly. Couldn't get off last month, asked for the day off this month and wasn't given off. Don't feel like one day a month is too much to ask for but apparently it is. Going to see if they can change it tomorrow, but I'm not really confident.
Made that much worse by the fact that's the only opportunity I get to play with people other than my brother. I want to be able to practice against different players, playing against the same person over and over isn't much better than playing against CPUs.
Made that much worse by the fact that's the only opportunity I get to play with people other than my brother. I want to be able to practice against different players, playing against the same person over and over isn't much better than playing against CPUs.
theprodigy
Member
LTC3 starts today!
time to watch some PM boys
edit: apparently there have already been 54 tournaments with 100+ entrants for Melee singles, compared to 63 in all of 2014
not bad
time to watch some PM boys
edit: apparently there have already been 54 tournaments with 100+ entrants for Melee singles, compared to 63 in all of 2014
not bad
LucidMomentum
Member
Try netplay! It might take a minute to make your own ISO though...
I agree though, it's hard to work on things playing against the same person. You fall into traps that don't often work against anyone else.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Oracle just won the local a couple days ago that had a bunch of the big PM players going to LTC3. Pretty funny since he isn't entering LTC since he is the TO.
He beat IPK, Lunchables, Sethlon, and Junebug, consecutively. He was on fire.