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Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Anth0ny
- Start date
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Scythesurge
Member
Glad ESPN put up an article written by prog, the best way to start coverage is by having a well known and respected member of the community contribute.
Been watching Genesis 3 stream all day. HungryBox and Axe have been sliding by, but their matches have been my favorite thus far.
Can't believe Wobbles is out.
Genesis 3 Stream
Can't believe Wobbles is out.
Genesis 3 Stream
Ya he got knocked out early, I was hoping to see big things from him.
Genesis 3 was legit one of the best top 8s I've ever seen. I feel super excited for the future coming out of this tournament, too. The Mango/Armada rivalry just keeps on giving.
Right now it's feeling like:
Armada
Mango
Hbox
Leffen
PP
M2K
in that order. M2K on a good day can still go on a rampage and make every god (besides Armada and Hbox) look like they don't know how to play the game. PP is getting over some shit right now, but when he bounces back, I expect him to bounce back big time and threaten Armada's spot at the top. Leffen is watching all of this right now in the hyperbolic time chamber and training his ass off, probably more hungry than ever.
It's all very exciting
Right now it's feeling like:
Armada
Mango
Hbox
Leffen
PP
M2K
in that order. M2K on a good day can still go on a rampage and make every god (besides Armada and Hbox) look like they don't know how to play the game. PP is getting over some shit right now, but when he bounces back, I expect him to bounce back big time and threaten Armada's spot at the top. Leffen is watching all of this right now in the hyperbolic time chamber and training his ass off, probably more hungry than ever.
It's all very exciting
A day later and I seriously can't believe I attended Genesis 3. The whole thing feels like some kind of a dream, it was so cool. Sunday was seriously some of the most fun I've had....ever.
I'd say:
1. Armada
2. Leffen
3. HBox
4. Mango
5. PPMD
6. M2K
I feel like M2K could honestly get knocked out of god status this year if he really focuses more on Smash 4. If Plup or Axe wins a major this year and M2K doesn't I'm definitely placing one of them over him.
I don't want to put Mango too high because of recency bias. He's got an uphill battle to climb from here. I think he has potential to go on another 2014-tier run this year though if he works at it and continues striving to play like he did here. I think his key to success is really analyzing how the players he loses to play and finding specific counters.
Leffen is hard to place. I put him there since that's where I'd place him before he had Visa problems and I wanna give him the benefit of the doubt for a little while. He could be the best player in the world right now or HBox and Mango could have easily surpassed him.
I'd say:
1. Armada
2. Leffen
3. HBox
4. Mango
5. PPMD
6. M2K
I feel like M2K could honestly get knocked out of god status this year if he really focuses more on Smash 4. If Plup or Axe wins a major this year and M2K doesn't I'm definitely placing one of them over him.
I don't want to put Mango too high because of recency bias. He's got an uphill battle to climb from here. I think he has potential to go on another 2014-tier run this year though if he works at it and continues striving to play like he did here. I think his key to success is really analyzing how the players he loses to play and finding specific counters.
Leffen is hard to place. I put him there since that's where I'd place him before he had Visa problems and I wanna give him the benefit of the doubt for a little while. He could be the best player in the world right now or HBox and Mango could have easily surpassed him.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I'd still put Hbox over Mango. As good as Mango was when he was on point during G3, it still took a some very uncharacteristic mistakes/SDs by Hbox for Mango to get to grands. And that one good tournament doesn't make up for his "poor" showings throughout most of last year.
1 and 2 is Armada Hbox for me. Beyond that it's so messy I just don't know.
1 and 2 is Armada Hbox for me. Beyond that it's so messy I just don't know.
I agree, this makes me tempted to put him higher, but the problem is that Mango isn't very consistent. If he played like he did yesterday all the time then I'd have him at third or maybe even second, but the problem is that he could buster out at the next major he attends and get ninth or some shit.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Peaks vs consistency is definitely a factor. If we were going by peaks I'd probably have Mango and maaaaybe M2K above Armada. Consistency wins tournaments though and is ultimately the sign of an overall better player, IMO. So I weigh that a lot more.
Even on a bad day Armada isn't losing to anyone except the top 6 and is still probably going to be sitting in grand finals. Hbox has his off moments where he might drop a set to a non-god top player, but it's rare these days, more so than the other four.
Even on a bad day Armada isn't losing to anyone except the top 6 and is still probably going to be sitting in grand finals. Hbox has his off moments where he might drop a set to a non-god top player, but it's rare these days, more so than the other four.
I know you guys love Mang0 and M2K peaks and I definitely think they are by far the best players in the world when they are on their peak
But Leffen also needs to be given props for when he is on his peak, everything he does is beautifully simple and punishing.
4 stocking Armada elegant.
Also I dunno if all of you saw but after Genesis 3 the look in Mang0's eyes, despite his amazing performance and how much I was fanboying over what I saw to be the best Fox of all time, they looked tired. More tired than I have ever seen them before. I will never sleep on the kid, but my god is he getting worn out from all the pressure he puts on himself for his fans. I really just wish he would play for himself like when he was puff. I hate to see him age so much year after year, it's truly heartbreaking. I saw the sets for MLG 2014 and he looked YEARS younger than he does now :/
But Leffen also needs to be given props for when he is on his peak, everything he does is beautifully simple and punishing.
4 stocking Armada elegant.
Also I dunno if all of you saw but after Genesis 3 the look in Mang0's eyes, despite his amazing performance and how much I was fanboying over what I saw to be the best Fox of all time, they looked tired. More tired than I have ever seen them before. I will never sleep on the kid, but my god is he getting worn out from all the pressure he puts on himself for his fans. I really just wish he would play for himself like when he was puff. I hate to see him age so much year after year, it's truly heartbreaking. I saw the sets for MLG 2014 and he looked YEARS younger than he does now :/
This past week or so has been pretty rough on him with that personal stuff.
Seeing how confidently he handled THAT Mango, I can't really believe that anyone will beat Armada. PP, Hbox, Mango all gave him a good run, but I can't imagine any of them really being close to Armada now.
theprodigy
Member
fredrancour
Member
how long has it been since their last tourney set? even then i feel inclined to say mango went falco for it.
Ultra Numb
Member
Not a shot fired at anyone in this thread, just a post in general.
I always found the whole 'peak' thing weird. Like how do we value it? One player in a set is sometimes playing around their peak, but not often. Both players playing around their peak? Never. Even in sets such as MLG Grand Finals? Nope.
For example, Leffen in the Summer. He was playing the best during his mini-streak last summer, no questions asked. However, that doesn't necessarily mean he had the highest peak at the time. It just means he was playing better at that time. Unless we're to assume those in his tier were playing at or near their peak too... but they weren't. Armada definitely wasn't, for example.
That's why I think it's easier and better to value consistency over 'peak skill'. It comes down to who's playing better more often, more about numbers and not some peak discussion that has so many double standards it could make my head spin.
I always found the whole 'peak' thing weird. Like how do we value it? One player in a set is sometimes playing around their peak, but not often. Both players playing around their peak? Never. Even in sets such as MLG Grand Finals? Nope.
For example, Leffen in the Summer. He was playing the best during his mini-streak last summer, no questions asked. However, that doesn't necessarily mean he had the highest peak at the time. It just means he was playing better at that time. Unless we're to assume those in his tier were playing at or near their peak too... but they weren't. Armada definitely wasn't, for example.
That's why I think it's easier and better to value consistency over 'peak skill'. It comes down to who's playing better more often, more about numbers and not some peak discussion that has so many double standards it could make my head spin.
Mango's fox is super aggressive and in-your-face. He was able to overwhelm and nearly run through everyone else in losers playing his game. But that type of style will get you killed by Armada's peach. It seems like it's super hard for Mango to adjust his gameplay. Peak Mango don't mean shit to the Princess if you can't switch it up.
Leffen plays more defensively and safer (i.e., a "wheeny" or "boring"). This is the power of Fox; you can play him however you want and still be super successful. Falco is either pressuring you into long-ass combos or getting gimped, heh.
So why does everyone think Armada is so damn good? What's the secret? I know on twitter he seems to complain about the perception of him just being a very hard worker and people discrediting his talent, which is kind of revealing. He probably rolls his eyes at the whole "Mango peak" talk, rofl! The dude really shouldn't let that get to him though. Hardcore fanboys can always be annoying at times.
Leffen plays more defensively and safer (i.e., a "wheeny" or "boring"). This is the power of Fox; you can play him however you want and still be super successful. Falco is either pressuring you into long-ass combos or getting gimped, heh.
So why does everyone think Armada is so damn good? What's the secret? I know on twitter he seems to complain about the perception of him just being a very hard worker and people discrediting his talent, which is kind of revealing. He probably rolls his eyes at the whole "Mango peak" talk, rofl! The dude really shouldn't let that get to him though. Hardcore fanboys can always be annoying at times.
Him going agro crazy is probably why Hbox managed to get him to game 5 last stock. I remember after EVO 2013 he said on the post evo MIOM stream that at first in their match (Hbox vs Mango) they were kind of even at first cause he forgot he needs to slow it down to fight Hbox. Maybe the same thing was at play here.
This is very interesting
Also D1 and another TO have already vouched for the OP so what he's saying is legit
Makes all the comments Leffen and Armada make on Twitter sound very petty tbh
Also D1 and another TO have already vouched for the OP so what he's saying is legit
Makes all the comments Leffen and Armada make on Twitter sound very petty tbh
Ultra Numb
Member
He actually said that he didn't even practice 'that' much last year, in comparison to 2014 at least. I think I remember him saying something like 8 hours a week. It's not until the last week [or month if its EVO] that he super grinds.
Honestly, Mango probably played more Melee in 2015 with how much he streamed and all.
Yeah I read this earlier. It's really interesting insight into something that we should know. I don't think it makes the swedes sound petty, leffen asked a legit question that seemingly had no public answer. Now we know.
fredrancour
Member
I felt like that was a part of the popular opinion of why the various fox matchups at TBH5 turned out the way the did, too: mango rushed in too much, mew2king's fox surrendered all stage control, and armada found the goldilocks zone. Of course, mango's all-time record against hbox is phenomenal because mango is phenomenal at playing aggressively, but I suppose 2015 was even in sets for a change, right?
...suddenly i'm worried that i'm remembering the wrong tournament and that the smash overdose ongoing since friday has melted my brain but i'm pretty sure that was big house.
remind me why we need final destination.
I don't like what it does to melee.
I can live without mew2king fd chain grabs or without all the great moments that i've seen on fd (mew2king's falcon vs PPMD's marth at MLG 2014 comes to mind). But it's still not worth it. I've watched too many sets that would have been better without fd.
Platforms protect us from some particularly dumb chain grabs and overly lame play against or between floaties, and that's without looking at all the things that platforms add to the game.
Taking platforms away feels like nerfing melee so that a couple of characters can have their game in chain grab city.
Final destination is lame. ban fd!!
I don't like what it does to melee.
I can live without mew2king fd chain grabs or without all the great moments that i've seen on fd (mew2king's falcon vs PPMD's marth at MLG 2014 comes to mind). But it's still not worth it. I've watched too many sets that would have been better without fd.
Platforms protect us from some particularly dumb chain grabs and overly lame play against or between floaties, and that's without looking at all the things that platforms add to the game.
Taking platforms away feels like nerfing melee so that a couple of characters can have their game in chain grab city.
Final destination is lame. ban fd!!
LucidMomentum
Member
theprodigy
Member
Hey if you actually want a change to stage rules, make it so that you can only play on a stage once per set.
They sound plenty petty all on their own lol
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Not in Bo5, but I guess that's where the get good part comes in.
Can't disagree that the counterpick to FD -> chaingrab thing isn't usually fun for a viewer though.
Also, it would be nice if Nintendo actually did verbalize their support of Smash a little more. Right now we get, at best, a tweet or two. And those are almost always specifically about Smash 4, I don't think they have ever directed tweeted about Melee (I know they have linked articles that include Melee, but that's about the extent of it).
I kind of get where they are coming from, wanting it to be about the community, but I don't think that means they have to entirely lurk in the shadows. There is a better balance to be had.
Link
I want to see if I can try and find myself lol, the guys in front of me kept holding up a Cloud 9 shirt so in all of the VODs I've seen my face is usually mostly covered by that
Without final destination, we wouldn't have to see fox (i.e. armada and leffen) taking puff (i.e. hungrybox) to fd. That alone seems like a great change.
It's a shame that such an important matchup (for-puff) is so unfair. It's hard enough without fd. And it's not only that fd is really bad for puff, it's also that fox-puff on fd is pretty lame to watch
It's a shame that such an important matchup (for-puff) is so unfair. It's hard enough without fd. And it's not only that fd is really bad for puff, it's also that fox-puff on fd is pretty lame to watch
LucidMomentum
Member
Yeah but honestly I'm not going to throw a match for the viewers. I'm going to pick the stage I have the best options on.
Also Nintendo being so secretive to me is super sketch. Like they say they want it to be about the community, but places like Capcom put in more support than they do in regards to tournament scenes. It's all out in the open too.
Having someone with a throwaway Reddit account saying "yeah Nintendo is great they do all this for us!" when the TOs aren't willing to talk about it outside of PR statements is a little odd too.
If Nintendo told us how they want to support things, that would be neat. I understand if they don't, but when people say that we should be happy to get anything I get a bit upset, because Smash was livin' well before Nintendo found out they could play ads on streams.
Speaking of TO'ing, our OG TO is getting moody because I paid for the tournament venue costs and another guy made the event page on Facebook. I thought he'd like it being a group thing but now he's acting like we took it away from him and he doesn't want to help.
When will people realize it's more than just one person that keeps the scene going? I'm super worried cause I'm out of town but I trusted the guys to run it smoothly. Worst case I'll just run the next one a bit smoother than this one, with or without him.
Without final destination, we wouldn't have to see fox (i.e. armada and leffen) taking puff (i.e. hungrybox) to fd. That alone seems like a great change.
It's a shame that such an important matchup (for-puff) is so unfair. It's hard enough without fd. And it's not only that fd is really bad for puff, it's also that fox-puff on fd is pretty lame to watch
It's like your saying 2 point conversions or onside kicks in football shouldn't be allowed. Or taking a knee to end a game is lame to watch. Sure it might be, but you play to win.
If you ban FD, might as well ban Dreamland because Peach can draw out matches there. It's a slippery slope that can really be applied to most of the stages in Melee. That's why bans and counter picks exist, to add to the strategy.
There's a reason Puff is hard to get good at. She lacks the ease of use tools a lot of the high tiers have, especially in regards to certain matchups. Same goes for Samus, and to an extent Ganon.
I know.
I only complained about fd because when watching melee tournament i tend to think:
most of the time people play on stages with platforms, and melee is awesome. From time to time, someone goes to fd. Depending on their character, it's going to be less entertaining that the matches before it.
I understand that, depending on the matchup, fd helps keeping the game more balanced and also gives us some interesting counter pick wars like armada (fox, peach) vs mango (fox, falco) when mango didn't want to play the fox vs fox matchup.
It adds to the game sure... until a game is played there xD Marth vs fox/falco doesn't fall into the lame play or dum chaingrab category, though
Marth's chaingrab is more like a regular melee combo than a cheap chain grab. But even a fd matchup as exciting as than one can feel unnecesary (if the marth is playing well).I'm pretty sure that armada would have won without final destination. You don't have to worry about that haha
But i'd prefer watching another game of armada winning on a stage with platforms than a fd game. But that's obviously from the viewer's perspective. Having fd for that matchup makes sense, as it keeps fox in check, yet it's still lame. However, fd absolutely sucks (i.e. being unbalanced or being unbalanced + lame to watch) in other matchups
Ultra Numb
Member
Close-up of the one of a kind exclusive GENESIS 3 Cube. It lights up too.
Scythesurge
Member
I don't really understand the idea of FD being boring or not fun to watch. Well, I can kinda understand the chain grab aspect (though I disagree), I really don't understand this statement because it's the opposite of what really goes on:
The question I have to ask is what is overly lame play against or between floaties? The things that come to my mind for this are platform stalling and camping. These are obviously lame tactics because they essentially stop the match to maintain neutral with no change in position. They pretty much require there to be platforms though, as on FD there is no place to really stall without giving up complete stage control (aka only edge stalling really works and that works on every legal stage).
Now as far as chain grabbing goes, for a long time it has been considered a guaranteed thing (aka M2K) and a repetitive guaranteed thing isn't great for viewers. However, in recent years I started to appreciate the execution for chain grabs and I find myself watching really closely when they start. Players now DI/SDI the grabs much more consistently to escape, as well as knowing the matchups and percentages for surviving. Even top players don't always execute chaingrabs to death, but it's still an optimal option to go for. As a viewer I'd be a bit disappointed if top players stopped doing whatever it takes to win.
e: holy crap that cube is hot
double e: This post supports FD but I really do prefer stages with platforms just don't think FD should be removed by any means.
The question I have to ask is what is overly lame play against or between floaties? The things that come to my mind for this are platform stalling and camping. These are obviously lame tactics because they essentially stop the match to maintain neutral with no change in position. They pretty much require there to be platforms though, as on FD there is no place to really stall without giving up complete stage control (aka only edge stalling really works and that works on every legal stage).
Now as far as chain grabbing goes, for a long time it has been considered a guaranteed thing (aka M2K) and a repetitive guaranteed thing isn't great for viewers. However, in recent years I started to appreciate the execution for chain grabs and I find myself watching really closely when they start. Players now DI/SDI the grabs much more consistently to escape, as well as knowing the matchups and percentages for surviving. Even top players don't always execute chaingrabs to death, but it's still an optimal option to go for. As a viewer I'd be a bit disappointed if top players stopped doing whatever it takes to win.
e: holy crap that cube is hot
double e: This post supports FD but I really do prefer stages with platforms
just don't think FD should be removed by any means.
Scythesurge
Member
Love the orange cube, didn't realize they had an orange GBP in Japan too!
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
Did you read the same reddit thread as the rest of us? The TO said about it, tweeted the Nintendo rep about the discussion who responded, and TOs like D1 & DC confirmed a lot of the stuff that they do and elaborated on it.
Jigolo
Member
Here are a few that I liked. I don't know how to download the videos from twitter
Mang0 beats Hbox
Showdown vid: https://twitter.com/ShowdownGG/status/688967423853105152
D1 (best crowd noise/video): https://twitter.com/xD1x/status/688969722180702208
Moxie pic: https://twitter.com/moxie2D/status/688961947660718080
Also LOL:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT5CjllZfaU
DID THE LAKERS JUST WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP
OR DID A VIDEO GAME PLAYER JUST KICK A PINK PUFFBALL WITH A CARTOON FOX
I CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE
GROWN MEN CRYING
LucidMomentum
Member
I only read it when it first went up, admittedly. I'll go back through it. I'm still confused why TO's waited for that thread to come up to start talking about it though.
