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Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread

D

DryEyeRelief

Member
xezuru said:
I think it's fuckin fine, Leffen and people should be thinking long term, if this community actually and truely wants to be respected then yes we should be doing stuff like other "real" sports. I can't just walk into the dug out and start telling Ichiro to sign my shit, that's unreasonable and most of the time it's their buisiness time so you're getting in the way and making them uncomfortable. It's a danger both to the player who sometimes just wants to get their shit done, and to the venue with constant clogging of areas making the M2K line fire hazard worthy and destructive of the con experience as well.
Click to expand...

I remember reading on the smash reddit someone saying that it was important to prop up the top players because the community can't rely on corporate sponsorship like other games. I think there's some validity to it. Nairo from Smash 4 was sponsored by Shaq's esports team as their first fgc based player and I think that was largely due to how big his twitch following is.

LucidMomentum said:
It can go a lot of ways, really.

From a FB Smash group, here's what I put down:



Also y'all need to tell me when you play netplay usually. I wanna see how good GAF is.
Click to expand...

That's all reasonable. There's never going to be a set standard for VIP because every event has different circumstances. But the concept itself isn't terrible.

Paying to see the players seems like a bit much but it's not any different than Capcom Cup. They offered special marked up tickets to the afterparty featuring the top players who participated.
 
C

Codeblue

Member
The best part of this VIP stuff is that Leffen's attitude is seeping out into the general FGC.

I honestly don't see the problem with it though. I was at an regional in OK, and Oracle was getting stopped for pictures. This isn't M2K, this is a guy that got 2nd place at PM once. I don't get star struck by Smashers, but enough people do that I can see it being disruptive.

Also, my internet is real picky about who it'll play nice with, but I'd be down to netplay some time. Maybe we can get a discord going or something?
 
E

emb

Member
Regarding VIP stuff: I think most of it's fine. Dedicated warm up spots, free of general crowd distractions should absolutely be a thing, for anyone that earns their way into top 8/16/32/48/64/128, whatever. It's crazy how often 'famous' players have people interrupting them.

At a recent tournament I ended up playing friendlies with a top player, just by chance. And in between every match, someone would try to stop him and say 'hey' or "what's up", with a couple people asking for selfies or autographs. None of those people were being disrespectful or in the wrong, but if that kind of thing goes on all day, I'm sure it's a huge nuisance. Likewise for people crowing around to watch top players just play the game. Nothing wrong with it, but the buildup of people can make it difficult to get around.

I think most forms of top player privilege are actually good. Again the stronger players have earned it. If you want to give them an extra hour before DQ, let them register late, accept schedule adjustment requests for their pools, pay for them to fly to your event, etc etc etc I think that's all good. Top players are important to have a strong upper bracket and an appealing event on the spectator side of things, and I think they should get some unfair advantages and some lee-way.

Floating though, that's kinda garbage. True, there's not gonna be an upset. But give x_ssjFalcoDude_x his chance to play Mango or Hbox. That'll make the tournament experience more memorable to him, and playing the extra 3 or 4 warm up matches to get straight out of a pool on winner's side won't hurt the top players.
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
yeah with the way melee has blown up, I feel like the VIP stuff is kinda a necessity at this point.

back in the day I used to literally sit beside M2K as he played friendlies with another player. it was me, my buddy playing him, and m2k. today, you have a crowd watching his tv as if winner's finals last game last stock was going on.

it's a tough balance to strike, but it has to be done. especially at some of the larger tournaments.
 
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LucidMomentum

Member
Anth0ny said:
yeah with the way melee has blown up, I feel like the VIP stuff is kinda a necessity at this point.

back in the day I used to literally sit beside M2K as he played friendlies with another player. it was me, my buddy playing him, and m2k. today, you have a crowd watching his tv as if winner's finals last game last stock was going on.

it's a tough balance to strike, but it has to be done. especially at some of the larger tournaments.
Click to expand...

Yeah for sure. At a smaller Fresno tournament SFAT, PewPewU, and HugS were all there. I had HugS in my pool and almost took a game off him due to pulling a stitch.

But no one made it awkward or swarmed him lol. I've heard stories of people trying to punch knuckles of players under the guise of a fist bump, etc.

Smash has blown up in the last 3-4 years. You look at past tournament footage and it was nowhere near as crazy, and now you've got Genesis and EVO drawing in massive crowds.

I love it, but the E-sports pains are starting to show. Especially in my local community where I'm one of like two TOs and everyone is asking us how to make money off Smash tournaments.

I make no money off my biweekly series lol.

What profit we get from venue fees goes back to the pot so our small tournaments still have payouts of 50-60$ for Melee 1st place and 70-80$ for S4 1st place. Sadly PM only gets like 20-30$ for 1st, as it's the least popular in town but my favorite game :(

I still have no clue how Xanadu / VGBootCamp do it. I wish they would release more guides on the behind the scenes / day to day operations of running a tournament series so people with ideas could figure out where to start.
 
Bakkus

Bakkus

Member
This VIP thing is really alien for me living in Europe. When Leffen entered a tournament here in Norway last year with only 60-70 attendees, he was not swarmed at all. Everyone respected his privacy outside of a few just giving him some praise when he entered the building. Same goes for the semi majors I've been on (Eclipse 1 and BEAST 6),never noticed anyone being a creeper towards the top players.
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
c216f2dee413c060f3e70p0s4e.jpg


ayyy
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
Nerfing Fox

I can't say I disagree with any of the changes. Start with PAL Fox, then make some reasonable nerfs to laser and shine. Still a damn capable character.

Only thing is... with a nerfed Fox, the other top characters are suddenly super strong. I feel like, if Melee HD is going to happen and they balance the entire cast, nerfed Fox should be the first thing implemented, and then you balance the rest of the cast after that. Cause if you balance around regular Melee Fox you have a DRASTICALLY different game to balance.

It's already generating a ton of discussion:

Laudandus thoughts on the nerfs:


Lasers aren't broken and if they were reducing their damage by 1 wouldn't help.

Shine isn't nearly as safe as he makes it out to be because it's usually a 50/50 : you can't confirm it on reaction and waveshine is shield grabbable, so if you shine but they shield it and you try to waveshine they can just grab you and that often does more damage to you than the shine would have done to them.

I think having shine break crouch cancel is REALLY good for the game. Is the way you want to change Fox really to make it so he has no options but to laser camp Samus and Peach for the first 40%? Why? He didn't even nerf ledge dashes, so this Fox is even more reliant on running away and using his intensely broken 14 frames of invincibility to never get caught by opponents he now has a really hard time fighting.

I think nerfing his recovery distance and kill moves is great though
Click to expand...

Leffen's thoughts:

"I have no interest in the "viable melee" mod but so I don't have to answer this question 372884 times on my stream - I think the fox nerfs and many other balance changes were hilariously bad, and failed the standard he himself set up (play/feel the same) :)"
Click to expand...
 
E

emb

Member
The Fox changes seem pretty awful, honestly. Imo, leave shine exactly how it is, make up B even shorter than he did, side b slightly shorter, add several frames of landing lag to up B. Laser damage down to 2 is a solid change.

That balanced version of Fox just doesn't look fun to play as or really even against, and doesn't make me more interested in the idea of playing the revised game. I'm not the biggest PM fan, nor do I think it's anywhere close to perfect, but imo they had the right goal in terms of balance, basing it on Melee's top tiers.
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
emb said:
The Fox changes seem pretty awful, honestly. Imo, leave shine exactly how it is, make up B even shorter than he did, side b slightly shorter, add several frames of landing lag to up B. Laser damage down to 2 is a solid change.

That balanced version of Fox just doesn't look fun to play as or really even against, and doesn't make me more interested in the idea of playing the revised game. I'm not the biggest PM fan, nor do I think it's anywhere close to perfect, but imo they had the right goal in terms of balance, basing it on Melee's top tiers.
Click to expand...

it's pretty clear that scrumpy thinks shine is ridiculously broken and in need of a nerf.

it is definitely a tough thing to balance, as fox is defined by that move... and its broken-ness. by nerfing shine, you nerf fox's mobility and overall feel. which sucks because fox is fun... but I don't know what the alternative is if they're going for a shine nerf. make it work like falco's shine, maybe?

alternatively, you let him keep his broken ass shine just the way it is, and then nerf the SHIT out of his other tools.
 
E

emb

Member
Yeah, Scrumpy definitely had it in for shine. He's used it as a go to example of the most broken move in several of those videos I think.

You're right though, it kinda defines Fox. The feel of moving around with it is a lot of what makes Fox. A nice compromise maybe would be to switch the hitbox size of Fox and Falco's shine, so that Fox has a slightly harder time connecting with it. Getting rid of the invincibility is also reasonable.

Slowing down the JC like that video does, sounds like it'd be off-putting, but maybe 2 frames would be hard to notice once you adjust. At first thought it seems like it'd make Fox feel very Falco-ish. Messing with the knockback though, that feels like going too far.
 
L

LucidMomentum

Member
Fox's movement is only one of the things that makes him great.

His shine is another.

But his most OOS / tech chase options all result in kills at around 80/90%

That's what makes him great.

Falling UAir, Standard Nair, Bair, Uair, Utilt, and Usmash are all good killers.

Very few characters have that amount of variety in viable kill options.

Fox is a "perfect storm" of great tools, options, gimps, and solid movement that is only hampered by his recovery being a bit one dimensional. But then the priority on UpB and the speed on SideB makes up for that.

TL;DR: Fox is more than his shine or his movement. Super hard to balance.

If you want a good, less OP shine look at PM. Less gimp options but still just as good, if not better on ground and for movement.
 
C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
I think lasers are more broken than shine. Nerf the ever loving shit out of those, leave shine the same (or maybe the PM shine to weaken low percentage gimps) and reduce KO power across the board. That forces Fox to play a lengthier close range and combo game which would change some matchups out of his favor, without changing how he plays apart from no laser camping. Sprinkle in a slight recovery nerf and that's my nerfed Fox.
 
C

Codeblue

Member
I 100% think Shine needs to be nerfed. Maybe reduce the hitbox to something like Falco's. Make it not invincible on frame 1. Maybe change it to how PM worked to minimize it's function as a gimp option. Give it lower priority so it doesn't clank with everything.

Other suggestions here like reduce knockback on kill moves, add lag to his recovery landing, or making his recover options look more like PAL would be cool.

I'm not saying all of this needs to be implemented, but like one or two of them wouldn't break him as a character.
 
L

LucidMomentum

Member
chaosblade said:
I think lasers are more broken than shine. Nerf the ever loving shit out of those, leave shine the same (or maybe the PM shine to weaken low percentage gimps) and reduce KO power across the board. That forces Fox to play a lengthier close range and combo game which would change some matchups out of his favor, without changing how he plays apart from no laser camping. Sprinkle in a slight recovery nerf and that's my nerfed Fox.
Click to expand...

Honestly, give Fox the PM Shine, Falco's UpB / SideB Recovery but less priority and quicker startup / recovery, and weaken his kill moves a bit so people survive 10-15% more against him on average and you're done.

Obliterating shine and taking away his kill moves is a little excessive.

Laser camping Isn't a super big issue as I've rarely seen top level foxes resort to it frequently. Laser camping is an issue more often at mid to low levels of skill, as people don't pay attention to percentages and spacing as much.

This would open up the door to Puff being a more viable hard counter as well, which then develops the meta of having character specific counter picks.
 
P

Pappasman

Member
I'd agree that I think Scrumpy went too far, but it all comes down to your goal in balancing. Personally I would try to maintain Fox's spot at the top, but lessen the raw power that puts him into a tier of his own. Bring him from SS tier into the top of S. A character is defined by their strengths, and Fox is strong in every aspect. Fox being strong or being the best is not bad. I really think he only needs a few subtle changes.

Fox is a glass cannon. Keeping the glass but turning the cannon into a pistol is not the way to go. But I think we could all agree that adding an additional 10 or so percent before fox can kill would probably be a fair change. Oh and shortening the distance of firefox would be good too.
 
C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
LucidMomentum said:
Honestly, give Fox the PM Shine, Falco's UpB / SideB Recovery but less priority and quicker startup / recovery, and weaken his kill moves a bit so people survive 10-15% more against him on average and you're done.

Obliterating shine and taking away his kill moves is a little excessive.

Laser camping Isn't a super big issue as I've rarely seen top level foxes resort to it frequently. Laser camping is an issue more often at mid to low levels of skill, as people don't pay attention to percentages and spacing as much.

This would open up the door to Puff being a more viable hard counter as well, which then develops the meta of having character specific counter picks.
Click to expand...

The fact laser camping is even an option is a problem, even if it's only heavily used situationally. Fox's problem isn't that he's totally broken, it's that he's just good at everything. Just removing lasers as a viable option is a huge but almost indirect nerf to Fox.

My thought is that by severely nerfing lasers and weakening KO power some (not super heavily), Fox becomes a character entirely defined by his punish and combo game. He wouldn't be able to force approaches with lasers, and he would require a bit more percent to finish stocks. Otherwise he would play basically the same (plus a slight recovery nerf and perhaps the PM shine like I mentioned before).

And presumably this nerf wouldn't exist in a vacuum, but Fox having a losing matchup wouldn't be the end of the world.
 
T

Tripon

Member
Would like to know if anybody making a thread for Big house 6. If not, will make it as part of the fighting tournament weekend threads.
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
Leffen had an interesting take on the whole Fox nerf discussion.

He says "make nerfs to numbers, not mechanics" because if you change the mechanics on Fox he is no longer fun to play.

I think that's an interesting way to look at it. In the end, fun should be the #1 priority. no one wants to play a perfectly balanced game that isn't fun to play. so for the strong characters, which are mostly fun to play, just nerf their numbers, meanwhile for the shit characters, change mechanics because they aren't fun to play (with some exceptions like Mewtwo which is fun as shit but just has some weak ass numbers lol)
 
G

GamerJM

Banned
I don't really like or agree with Scrumpy's design philosophy, but I'm happy he's making his mod nonetheless. Mainly because we already have SD Remix, which uses a design philosophy more akin to Icefrog/Dota 2's (wherein you just buff everyone to be as good as the best things in the game instead of nerfing/buffing to be about midtier). Because of this, when Scrumpy's mod is finished, we'll have TWO mods that balance and change Melee in completely different ways. We'll be able to compare and contrast the two different games to show the difference between the two different design philosophies with hard evidence and no difference in game mechanics.

I think a lot of his criticisms are fair, but some of them don't understand that this is a part of a project to nerf/buff everyone to be about Mario-level. I think what Leffen was saying about how shine has to be a committal move is an interesting perspective though, and makes the "comes out on frame 1," a much less potent criticism of it being theoretically broken.
 
X

xezuru

Member
Honestly, I think Scrumpy's changes are fine. I think all characters should have a "variety of interesting options w/ minor limitations". Literally having a character be great at everything or even the best at most things and balancing everyone around that is pretty stupid. As much as I loved Project M in the past, a ridiculous amount of times they went through phases of "another fox" design where you just have Mewtwo have infinite teleports and floats with no up-b recovery and infinite options.

Jack of all trades design is pretty detrimental to the game design imo, and Leffen's idea of shine commitment really doesn't do anything for me.

Here's putting things into perspective:
Fox's Jab is ~17 Frames. Active on 2-3. Can be IASA frame 16.
What you get out of it: Up-Smash mainly

Fox's Shine->Wavedash is ~18 Frames.
Shine up to reflect/jump frame(4)+ Jumpsquat(3+1)+Waveland Recovery(10)
What you get out of it: Everything and this is not even counting Double Shine/Shine Grab ect.

It's really dumb that you have a move like a jab that gets an infinite times more options than any other attack in the game. That said, I do think while some of Scrumpy's numbers are harsh and timing will vastly change but the core of Fox's gameplay is still there. Unfortunately Puff would be ridiculous in that meta so hopefully we see that video soon. I get that people don't want their S-tier princess to theoretically have his legs amputated
Kappa
but we got to remember this mod is a what if scenario if we launched in 2001 with a "balanced melee" and not a patch of melee just destroying your favorite characters.
 
L

LucidMomentum

Member
xezuru said:
Your new venue been pickin up steam?
Click to expand...

Yes and no, in a sense.

The guy who is arguably the best in our city at Melee and PM (he trades games with Kira when they play in out of town tournaments, for example) used to be the previous TO at the old venue, and he's kind of lost interest in TO'ing / streaming tournaments after the old venue went out of business so that's a bummer.

I found the new venue in January and we started the new biweekly series. We had the two year anniversary of the biweeklies in July, and now we average 30-40 for Smash 4, 20-30 for Melee, and 10-15 for PM.

Our venue is almost at capacity with 50-60 people, so it's a bit rough around the edges and I really need to look into getting a more future proof venue.

But it's our biweekly and we make the most of it for now.

People help me run brackets, and I break even while keeping the payouts large ($80 for Melee 1st, $120 for Smash 4 1st on average) since I don't try to profit from the tournaments.

I've got a few special events planned for November / December, and we may start a less competitive / payout focused biweekly at my old university so I'm looking forward to the future!

My only regret is I TO / manage things more than I practice so I rarely get top 8 anymore, but with a group like this to be a part of I can't complain.

djW5fcq.jpg


Q3EBYX4.jpg
Click to expand...
 
C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
No mention of Summit 3 being announced? November 3-6, invited players are apparently Armada, Mango, Hbox, M2K, Leffen, Plup, Westballz, Axe, Shroomed, and SFAT.
 
P

Pappasman

Member
Don't really want to post drama stuff but I think this is pretty important. Twitter is blowing up becuase mango's gf is revealing his cheating and abuse. It all seems pretty fucked up.

I wonder what will happen from a community/sponsor perspective.
 
G

GamerJM

Banned
Pappasman said:
Don't really want to post drama stuff but I think this is pretty important. Twitter is blowing up becuase mango's gf is revealing his cheating and abuse. It all seems pretty fucked up.

I wonder what will happen from a community/sponsor perspective.
Click to expand...

Didn't see any of this and her Twitter is locked. But honestly this just makes me sick to my stomach. I feel bad for cheering for the guy at multiple nationals (assuming it's true, and I want to give benefit of the doubt to abuse victims).
 
T

Takyon

Member
Anth0ny said:
Nerfing Fox

I can't say I disagree with any of the changes. Start with PAL Fox, then make some reasonable nerfs to laser and shine. Still a damn capable character.
Click to expand...

Still good for sure, but I feel like these nerfs fuck up his match-ups with floaties to the extent that they would need significant nerfs as well.

Think about Peach, although this could apply to Puff and Samus. You now have no real way of making them approach, and your approaches just get walled by crouch cancel and shield grabbing. The Neutral is borked, and that's not even starting on the punish game.
 
A

Anteo

Member
GamerJM said:
Didn't see any of this and her Twitter is locked. But honestly this just makes me sick to my stomach. I feel bad for cheering for the guy at multiple nationals (assuming it's true, and I want to give benefit of the doubt to abuse victims).
Click to expand...

Dunno... every once in a while there was a problem related to her blowing up on twitter.

Actually there was that one time she accused him of cheating and she assaulted the other girl or something like that. I remember people in this thread hoping that she being in trouble with the police would not stop mango from going to the tournament that weekend other gods were attending.

So who knows... I rather not take sides
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
gonna wait on this mango stuff... need more details. hope it's not true.






anyways I was thinking... no one is really opposed to the nerfs they made in PAL, right? Look at the changes they made to Fox:

Weight

NTSC: 75
PAL: 73

Dash attack

NTSC: Late hit has angle of 72 and lasts 10 frames
PAL: Late hit has angle of 55 and lasts 9 frames

Up smash

NTSC: Clean hit deals 18% with 30 base knockback and 112 knockback growth
PAL: Clean hit deals 17% with 26 base knockback and 108 knockback growth

Down smash

NTSC: Sweetspot deals 15% with an angle of 25
PAL: Sweetspot deals 13% with an angle of 30

Fire Fox

NTSC: Strong hitbox deals 14%
PAL: Strong hitbox deals 12% and is 0.75x the radius; covers less distance than NTSC Fire Fox but more than Fire Bird


These are very subtle changes that don't change how Fox feels to play between versions, but also clearly weaken him. I feel like these are the kinds of nerfs that need to be made should the game be balanced to keep most people happy.
 
L

LucidMomentum

Member
PAL Fox is the GOAT Fox. Still viable, still high tier, but less of an unstoppable force.

As for the Mang0 situation, his baby mama's Twitter has always been all over the place but that doesn't excuse the fact that it's now private and this could very well be a real issue.

I've never been a huge Mang0 fan, but I really hope he's better than abusing someone.

Now if Armada all of a sudden gets arrested for something, I'm really gonna be a wreck.
 
S

Scythesurge

Member
Really wish the speculation and instant judgment toward any of the involved parties would wait until something more concrete is out there. I understand people want justice for shit like that but I don't know if a thread with one side of the story is the right way to go about it. It also should not be something that should be buried so it's just crappy all around.
 
Bakkus

Bakkus

Member
LucidMomentum said:
PAL Fox is the GOAT Fox. Still viable, still high tier, but less of an unstoppable force.

As for the Mang0 situation, his baby mama's Twitter has always been all over the place but that doesn't excuse the fact that it's now private and this could very well be a real issue.

I've never been a huge Mang0 fan, but I really hope he's better than abusing someone.

Now if Armada all of a sudden gets arrested for something, I'm really gonna be a wreck.
Click to expand...

Armada is a contender for the most humble person in the FGC. That would be one of the biggest shocks of all time.
 
C

Codeblue

Member
HBox just tweeted out that the Florida crew for Big House 6 was going to be:

HBox
M2K
Plup
Wizzy
Colbol

The argument is that either M2K isn't originally from Florida so he couldn't play based on origin, or HBox isn't currently living in Florida, so he couldn't be part of that crew if it's based on current location.

I feel like there should be a distinction between moving somewhere and the weird rotations HBox is doing for his job, so I think it's a valid crew. The only reason I can see for rejecting it is because it's too stacked. I don't think even Cali could compete if you combined NorCal and SoCal.
 
C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Does Hbox's job ever have him in Florida? I didn't think it did, and if it doesn't his job rotation wouldn't really matter.
 
C

Codeblue

Member
Oh, I thought he worked in Florida and was just rotating for training. If that isn't the case then that crew is definitely unfair.
 
F

fredrancour

Member
Omg this florida+georgia invitational is so entertaining. the esam/colbol/articanus/king momo pool was hilarious. esam choked vs king momo, colbol nearly choked vs articanus then got the reverse 3-0 in a janky sd bonanza, esam took colbol to game 5 before losing including a game in the fox ditto, and articanus dragged momo into the abyss with him in the final game so esam advanced as the pool's second player via the tiebreaker. I've never seen so many sets in a row alternating between funny mistakes and sick plays.

Codeblue said:
Oh, I thought he worked in Florida and was just rotating for training. If that isn't the case then that crew is definitely unfair.
Click to expand...

It sounds like he was in georgia before and is in alabama now? If he currently doesn't actually have a long-term home i can't really object to letting him play for the region he spent multiple years in.
 
E

emb

Member
fredrancour said:
Omg this florida+georgia invitational is so entertaining. the esam/colbol/articanus/king momo pool was hilarious. esam choked vs king momo, colbol nearly choked vs articanus then got the reverse 3-0 in a janky sd bonanza, esam took colbol to game 5 before losing including a game in the fox ditto, and articanus dragged momo into the abyss with him in the final game so esam advanced as the pool's second player via the tiebreaker. I've never seen so many sets in a row alternating between funny mistakes and sick plays.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good time. I'll probably try to watch a bit.
Pappasman said:
Saw this video about Alex19 on twitter.
https://youtu.be/YtyHZN3VJK0
Holy shit lmao.
Click to expand...
LOL what in the world

Also what is an Ocean man? I'm not familiar with that part.
 
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