The entire point of Han's death scene, IMO, was to drive home the point that there IS a choice. And he ultimately chose the dark side. Sure he was seduced and groomed by Snoke but he had every chance to leave with Han and return to his family. That's the way I interpreted it anyway. Not having any choice makes for pretty bad storytelling, especially in SW.
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Daisy Ridley Thought Reys Parentage Was Revealed in Star Wars: The Force Awakens
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The entire point of Han's death scene, IMO, was to drive home the point that there IS a choice. And he ultimately chose the dark side. Sure he was seduced and groomed by Snoke but he had every chance to leave with Han and return to his family. That's the way I interpreted it anyway. Not having any choice makes for pretty bad storytelling, especially in SW.
Jest Chillin
Member
Again, the code was NOT that they aren't allowed to love. That is not possible. The code is that they are not to have *attatchments*. Obi-Wan clearly knows that Anakin and Padme have feelings for each other throughout Ep 2 and 3. He only tells Anakin that he would violate the code by commiting to Padme. Marrying, having a family, etc...
Hell there is platonic love within the Jedi between Master and Apprentice.
And Obi Wan and Satine love each other but both are devoted enough to their roles in life to pick those over each other. It doesn't violate the code to have those feelings.
The Clone Wars cartoon series is highly regarded and has been on Netflix for years. More than 1% of the audience has seen it.
Manmademan
Member
yes, but it didn't END there:
Kylo found himself weakened and emotionally distraught after having killed han. He has yet to give in fully to the dark side, despite his actions and knows internally it was the wrong thing to do. Kylo is caught between the light and dark side, not committed to either.
Disney is putting out every road sign they possibly can that Kylo Ren is not a sith yet, still has the potential to be redeemed, and probably will be.
Hell, Darth Vader was eventually redeemed and entered the afterlife as a light side force ghost despite being the dude that struck down and killed Obi Wan- the man who practically raised him and was his master.
Do you know this guy? Shaw Gurera or whatever was his name.
I heard he became very extreme since the old days of the clone wars.
Right, and I am aware of that line, but I interpreted that more of "I just made a huge mistake and am not invested in what I've just done", which directly leads him down a path of self destrutive behavior, delving deeper into the dark side.
I don't mean to say RIGHT WHEN HE KILLED his father he's all the sudden 100% dark side, but more this action has sent him down a path he cannot return from. He'll eventually be completely consumed by it, IMO.
Also, the same exact message is sent in the film itself with his reaction. He chose the dark side, but he has no idea what that actually entails.
Anakin killed dozens of Tusken kids and came back. Doesnt matter.
It does matter, though. George Lucas isn't writing this. They're not looking at the PT as source for inspiration and there's more than one person making decisions. Anakin goes from "what have I done" to "yes I'll kill the children" in under two minutes. Clearly they're writing better characters.
Manmademan
Member
all I can say is that I interpret the events of the film differently than you do. Anakin Skywalker after becoming a sith had none of the internal conflict and struggle with the force that Kylo Ren does.
Anakin's actions were FAR worse ( killing the younglings, cruising around the galaxy as darth vader for 21 years and obliterating alderaan, killing Obi-Wan) and still ROTJ shows outright that no one is beyond redemption.
As I said above your post, George Lucas is not writing these films. A much more competent group of individuals are working together to make sure the same mistakes aren't made.
ROTJ was written without the context of the PT being released. And again, I think murdering your father in cold blood directly contrasts Vader's decision to save look. I don't think this was filmed this way on accident.
WrenchNinja
Member
repurposing a supporting cartoon character for a largely throw away role is not really the same thing as reusing a character from the original movie who died and tying him to your main character in your new trilogy of movies and also creating a brand new backstory for him that has a tonne of holes in it
The Tusken kids are dying in a completly different movie.
Not really. If the Obi Wan stuff is true, people in the cinema will be like "ok! Cool!" And thats it. I have no idea why this should be a problem.
I don't know what the original plan was, but obviously Saw should have been entirely cut from the version of Rogue One we actually got in favor of developing Jyn and maybe the lead guy some more. That went absolutely nowhere and the idea that his faction was too extreme for the other rebels clashed with all of the work done painting the mainstream rebels as morally grey. This does not strike me as a good example of a movie bringing in EU characters in a satisfying way.
Yes.. I know. I was giving you the more obvious example (of Anakin killing the kids in the Jedi Temple). All three of those shitty films were written by George Lucas. TFA/EP8/9 are not.
Manmademan
Member
The new trilogy however is NOT being written ignoring the events of the OT or the PT, regardless of who wrote what.
Episodes 7-9 are not ignoring 1-6, and all of this is taking place in a context where anakin skywalker went from a light side jedi to a sith lord with plenty of blood on his hands and was still redeemed at the end of his arc.
Having Kylo Ren suddenly be branded "completely irredeemable!" After killing Han Solo when we know outright that Snoke has been mind screwing him since birth isn't realistic.
WrenchNinja
Member
probably because after they go "ok! Cool!", they're going to go "Ummm, ok, how? When?Who? Why?"
Her being a nobody (as far as not being a child of one of the original leads) doesn't mean themes of family can't be important to her. Her arc in TFA is all about her finding new family and friends in Finn and Han/Chewie in place of the family that abandoned her, and that realization coming to fruition in her electing to go find Luke and find a new belonging. Family is core to her entire character, because the lack of family is what defines her journey so far.
Likewise, it's also possible for her to be the next in the Skywalker lineage/legacy without literally being a Skywalker, as she can take up his lightsaber and essentially be his adoptive daughter, her potentially finding a father she never had, and he finding a child he never had or lost.
Everything and nothing is on the table in regards to Rey's parents, as far as what the movie gave us and all the hinting (or lack thereof) by cast and filmmakers. Everything anyone has said really supports any theory and no theory so far.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Rey as a Kenobi descendant's direct parents don't need to matter in the same way Anakin's mother doesn't really matter.
Rey's line becomes relevant again because she is the only hope against Kylo Solo (essentially Skywalker).
It just works so much better than Luke imo.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Oh I think Lucasfilm will definitely get around to it. Obi-Wan's a popular character, people liked Ewan, it makes sense.
They're acknowledging the general story, not the specific details that were already frowned upon by fans/critics alike. It's the same reason why you're not going to hear shit about midichlorians or Jar Jar Binks in any of the ST films.
I think that scene, like I was saying before, was specifically created to contrast Vader saving his son, which to me, suggests he did not do what Vader ultimately could and therefore will not be redeemed. These films are all about the Skywalker family drama, so in that context, I do think the act of Ren killing his father in cold blood is unprecedented for the saga and deeply significant in regard to the story moving forward. I'm not saying he cannot be redeemed, just that I hope they don't take that route because there are better ways to write the story. And let's be honest.. I seriously doubt they brought on Rian Johnson to set up a redemption story for EP9. But I could be wrong.
I mean.. if Ren killed Han in that context, what will honestly bring him back to the light side? I just don't see it.
Doenst matter. I am talking about that they are not afraid to take stuff from Clone Wars or even Rebels and bring it to the screen. Arguments like the posted "its a silly cartoon, so it will be 100% not be happening" doesnt work.
And the idea that you can commit horrible shit and still be redeamed in the force is way older than these movies written by George Lucas. If they can rework shit like Darth Vader living in castle they can do this.
I know, woho, the prequels are horrible shit and lets lynch everyone who worked on them, but I dont see a single reason why they shouldnt have someone let redeemed, just because "george lucas isnt writing these movies". Good for these movies I guess.
"He had an affair during the clone wars"
Problem solved.
The general audience doesnr care about small shit like this and if they do they google it and get the answer on the 152736 articles and youtube videos that extermine it in 15 minute videos when someone farts in these kind of movies
Razgriz-Specter
Member
And Rebels is about to wrap up
Kenobi vs Maul
Thankfully, I completely doubt the writers have chosen to go that route.
So Obi-Wan having a relationship with Satine is OK with the Jedi Code as long as he didn't commit to her, OK.
Another thing, in the prequels even when Obi-Wan is an apprentice Qui-Gon is the maverick and Obi-Wan is very by the book. I don't care about the crap TCW show, Obi-Wan having a kid comes out no where based on the Obi-Wan we know in the films.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the idea is not that Ren is being signaled as irredeemable in the sense that it doesn't make sense in-universe for him to be redeemed but that he's being set up as an irredeemable character in a story. Like, in-universe it would have been totally believable for Vader to let Luke die, and everyone would then have tut-tutted about how silly Luke was to think Vader still had enough good in him, but as a matter of storytelling that was obviously not going to happen. It's certainly striking that in the OT a son refuses to fight his father and redeems him, and in TFA a father refuses to fight his son and is killed by him.
So I think it matters a lot that Ren on-screen killed a beloved character, his own father, who just wanted to love him. Vader never did anything nearly that unforgivable in the actual story people watched for 20 years - the big reveal in ESB was that Vader wasn't even as bad as we thought - and by the time the prequels came out people's attitudes towards Star Wars and Vader were pretty firm.
I don't think a Ren redemption story is impossible at this point, but it is very hard for me to see how it unfolds without his mother or closely-related-Rey doing a lot of work, and it's now a lot harder to film convincing scenes with Leia.
Yeah, there will four more sentences of exposition.
Like I said, in the context of "these stories are all about the Skywalker family drama", I think Ren's actions are unprecedented and will be telling of where his character is going in the next two films. So I do think in the context of the SW saga, this is by far the worst thing a character has done (given the context of the way the scene was written to contrast Vader's redemption).
The difference between Vader and Kylo is that Vader was pulled to the dark side and fully gave in to it, letting it drive him and feeding off it as he did evil shit, before ultimately being faced with an unexpected test in his son and finding minor redemption of a sort in the end.
Kylo is being pulled to the light. He's being tempted to the light side, not pulled to the dark. His arc in TFA is the inverse of Luke's in ESB. He wants to be dark side, and is purposefully doing vile shit of his own volition to try get closer to the dark side. He kills Han because he thinks killing your own father is the bullshit a dark side asshole should do. He has the opportunity to go to the light and doesn't take it. He's trying to legitimize his darkness by doing evil. He's gonna come out of TFA, having killed his father and getting beaten by a girl, even more emboldened in his assholery. Dude doesn't deserve redemption.
Kylo is being pulled to the light. He's being tempted to the light side, not pulled to the dark. His arc in TFA is the inverse of Luke's in ESB. He wants to be dark side, and is purposefully doing vile shit of his own volition to try get closer to the dark side. He kills Han because he thinks killing your own father is the bullshit a dark side asshole should do. He has the opportunity to go to the light and doesn't take it. He's trying to legitimize his darkness by doing evil. He's gonna come out of TFA, having killed his father and getting beaten by a girl, even more emboldened in his assholery. Dude doesn't deserve redemption.
WrenchNinja
Member
but anakin's mom did matter. She was kind of the reason he first took any steps into the dark side and his failure there led to his overprotectiveness of padme
there's just too many gaps for this to come off palatable on screen
why would the kenobi line matter against a skywalker. There's nothing special about it. Plus Obiwan failed.
WrenchNinja
Member
this is not a small thing. If you're trying to tie your lead character with a dead one that the audience has seen on screen in multiple movies and try to weasel in that backstory like it ain't no thing, you're going to have to have more than a handwave to justify it
Manmademan
Member
Disagree STRONGLY here. Han was Kylo's father, but not the man who raised him. Han hadn't seen Kylo since he was "a child". The dude is nearly 30. Kylo was handed off to Luke at an early age because neither Leia nor Han could handle what was happening to him.
Anakin was closer to Obi-Wan than Kylo ever was to Han Solo- and Anakin struck down Kenobi in cold blood in episode IV. And this ignores things like murdering younglings or blowing up a planet.
as I mentioned above- Neither Leia nor Han raised Kylo ren beyond early childhood. Luke did.
To be fair, Obi-Wan was there to kill Vader. For the second time after letting him almost burn to death.
But yeah, killing the younglings was pretty bad.
And I don't think we know for sure that Han and Leia didn't raise Kylo beyond early childhood.
There's no reason that Obi Wan can't or won't appear in VIII himself and explain all this stuff directly to Rey, if this is the deal. I mean, we did just have a test run on bringing back a dead actor to revive his role in Rogue One. It'll be even more convincing with a year's maturation of tech and when the character is appearing as a force ghost.
So why didn't Obi-Wan appear to Rey in the first twenty years of her life?
He wasn't there to kill Vader. He was there to let Vader kill him.
He hardly struck him down in cold blood. He let Vader kill him so he could become one with the force and help Luke.
Vader: "Escape is not his plan. I must face him, alone."
Obi-Wan: "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
Also.. Han did raise him. I'm not sure why just because he left for the Academy constitutes Han not raising Ben. Maybe some shoddy parenting, but clearly Ben loves Han and that's all that matters in that moment. Even if he does resent him in lots of ways.
I wonder if Kylo resents Han for not having the Force and in some way weakening his link to Vader.
Pretty odd when for once he didn't have to be stuck on Tatooine watching over Luke.
EDIT: Didn't notice I was double posting.
That's an interesting thought. I could see him resenting both Leia and Han for not being force users.
Yeah, maybe hoping he was the child of Luke and giving him more reason to be jealous of Rey (Skywalker).
First, I don't think this stuff is going to make that big of a difference to audience reactions, and also note that it's not like Vader had anything to do with raising Luke either - Star Wars so far has cared a lot about blood relationships. But sure, I think you could try to do something along these lines. Maybe flesh out Ren's backstory so that he has some legitimate grievances against his parents. You're not justifying him killing Han but you're making it more understandable how Snoke tempted him to the Dark Side or whatever. I'd laugh if, after ATLA pulled off fantasy Star Wars so well and then made its characters horrible parents to the next generation, Star Wars comes back and does the same thing. But if Luke is so central to Ren's redemption this going to feel a lot like a Luke Skywalker story. I mean, we've seen that before, and already TFA was The Search for Skywalker. If I'm writing this I really want to bring in Rey and have her be the main Jedi.
Yeah the biggest change they need to make in the next two films is to firmly cement Rey as the front and center of the franchise. I mean they did a good job of this in TFA, but you could make the argument that Luke is still pretty much the centerpiece of the story.
I have confidence in Luke taking more of an Obi-Wan or Yoda role in the next film.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Same reason he never did much with Luke despite him being their only hope?
Until it was time to do something.
Luke was under the care of his aunt and uncle.
Luke's Jedi Order only went down five years ago. It was fifteen years of Rey living as a scavenger on Jakku and the ghost of Obi-Wan never told Luke or anybody else to help his daughter. Doesn't sound any better than Luke dropping Rey off on Jakku to me.
Jest Chillin
Member
So Obi-Wan having a relationship with Satine is OK with the Jedi Code as long as he didn't commit to her, OK.
Another thing, in the prequels even when Obi-Wan is an apprentice Qui-Gon is the maverick and Obi-Wan is very by the book. I don't care about the crap TCW show, Obi-Wan having a kid comes out no where based on the Obi-Wan we know in the films.
It wasn't a relationship. It was an affair.
And Obi-Wan is not purely by the book. He's more by the book than Jinn, sure, but he has his own streaks of leaping before looking. This is where you need to look at the actions of the character as much as the dialogue. There's even exchanges between Obi-Wan and Anakin where, when Obi-Wan chastises Anakin for being rash, Anakin counters by pointing out the many times that his rashness was necessary to rescue Obi-Wan from his own rash and wreckless decisions. It's part of what made them more like Older and Younger brothers rather than the Father and Son type of relationship that is typical of a Master and Apprentice.
It really doesn't matter what you think about The Clone Wars. It's canon and relevant. If you want to go by your own head-canon, feel free to. It's every fans right.
But don't use your head-canon to argue against the validity of canon from the creators because it essentially amounts to "because that's the way I want it to be, so there!"
Ether_Snake
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Man if they really make this whole thing a lineage thing, you can bet they'll go over the "Jedis can't have kids cause they might go evil" or whatever shit.
If you haven't seen TCW yet, just say so instead of calling it "crap". TCW is highly rated, even among hardcore prequel haters.
I used to really care about canon but ever since most of it went out the window I really don't pay attention to anything outside the films. The films will always have much more importance within canon than any EU material.
Regardless, I have zero doubt the writers aren't linking the new main character of the ST to a TCW story that most of the audience doesn't know about, it's irrelevant what I think about canon. Within the films, Obi-Wan having a granddaughter is absolutely out of the blue and not even a good idea. I'm 100% confidant that's not going to happen.
I have watched it (at least the first four seasons), even been to Star Wars Celebration and watched episodes early, and to me, it is crap. Moreso than the prequels or the vast majority of the EU. GAF is the only place I've seen it highly rated. And I have been on a few Star Wars forums. I have to really lower my standards to enjoy it. And I'm not usually a negative person about these kinds of things.
Jest Chillin
Member
There is no EU material now. It's all canon. And they wouldn't be connecting Rey to a character in TCW, they would be connecting her to a popular major character from the mainline movies.
The people who don't care about alternate media will not particularly care about the intricacies of her lineage. Daughter of a child conceived in an affair is more than enough. The only people who will complain are those like yourself, who want to know more but shun alternate material for whatever reason.
As for it being a good idea. Some will like it, others won't. Oh well. It's not as if the old EU had no terrible, terrible, god awful choices all throughout. At least now there will be more consistency.
Compelling argument.
I think there is as much chance for Rey being a Palpatine as her being a Kenobi.
There may be no levels of canon now but the writers are aware that the general audience isn't aware of a TV show story and I 100% doubt it was even in their minds when they wrote Rey's character. There is no way a Kenobi descendant is a natural continuation of anything in the previous six films, which is what matters most. I'm not sure Lawrence Kasdan even knew who Plagueis was. It's a dream for Clone Wars fans but it's not going to happen. Rey will be the daughter of Luke, Leia, or some unknown.
And if Rey's parentage was revealed in TFA in any way like Daisy said, there was absolutely nothing revealing her to be Kenobi.
"That lightsaber was Luke's, and his father's before him, and now it calls to you." (from memory)
She's Skywalker blood or a nobody.
Jest Chillin
Member
There is no way a Kenobi descendant is a natural continuation? So it doesn't matter at all that without Obi-Wan the entire galaxy would have been doomed? It counts for nothing that he played a significant role in every Skywalker life until Ben Solo?
Ok.
Having Obi-Wan speak to Rey through the Force is enough.
"Rey, these are your first steps."
Those are basically the words he spoke to Luke - "You've taken your first step in to a larger world" , continuing the tradition of guiding the Skywalkers whether that be in life or in death.
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