David Jaffe Addresses the Concern Over Gaming Subscription Services

M

ManaByte

Banned


Some good points here:

  • Subscription services like Netflix and Amazon Prime Video didn't affect the quality of movies and TV shows. If anything the quality got better based on the number of awards streaming services are winning (the Best Picture winner this year was on Hulu).
  • He spends time talking about the budget of big games from places like Naughty Dog and Santa Monica could fade away and how the riskier games will probably move to sub services.
  • People like Druckmann and Kojima could defect to things like PS Now and GamePass for more freedom to be creative.
 
Have movies and TV shows actually gotten better though?

The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Breaking Bad.

Have any shows risen to those levels in the Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu era?

And where are the Shawshank Redemptions? The Godfathers, The Schindler's List during the Netflix, Hulu era? It feels like the industry has gotten fat on superhero schlock and John Wick copy cats.
 
gamepass bad
game show television GIF
 
Subscription based services will take over everything sooner or later and every developer and publisher will have adapt.

As long as there's an option to buy and own games I'm ok with that.
 
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Men_in_Boxes said:
Have movies and TV shows actually gotten better though?

The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Breaking Bad.

Have any shows risen to those levels in the Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu era?

And where are the Shawshank Redemptions? The Godfathers, The Schindler's List during the Netflix, Hulu era? It feels like the industry has gotten fat on superhero schlock and John Wick copy cats.
Click to expand...
Those HBO shows required subscriptions. Breaking Bad found an audience because of Netflix.
 
ManaByte said:


Some good points here:

  • Subscription services like Netflix and Amazon Prime Video didn't affect the quality of movies and TV shows. If anything the quality got better based on the number of awards streaming services are winning (the Best Picture winner this year was on Hulu).
  • He spends time talking about the budget of big games from places like Naughty Dog and Santa Monica could fade away and how the riskier games will probably move to sub services.
  • People like Druckmann and Kojima could defect to things like PS Now and GamePass for more freedom to be creative.
Click to expand...


Netflix doesn't have any great content, so he's definitely wrong

he needs to step back and stop aggressively shilling sub services

they are OK for calling all cars tier content, they don't really have a place for AAA unless publishers are willing to accept huge money hats or the service owner wants to lose tons of money
 
He still talks about game quality without talking about the problem with Microsoft's DRM Trojan horse.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
Have movies and TV shows actually gotten better though?

The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Breaking Bad.

Have any shows risen to those levels in the Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu era?

And where are the Shawshank Redemptions? The Godfathers, The Schindler's List during the Netflix, Hulu era? It feels like the industry has gotten fat on superhero schlock and John Wick copy cats.
Click to expand...
I think it's an easy argument that TV is amazing right now. And remember: Sopranos and Deadwood were both made by subscription services (HBO).

As for movies, there are amazing movies we've seen greenlit and made on these sub services (from big stuff like THE IRISHMAN and TRIAL OF THE CHICAGO 7 to the super indie like this year's best Oscar winner NOMADLAND, last year's PARASITE, ROMA, etc.) The difference is, these days movies don't seem to wedge into culture like they once did (Schindler's List, Godfathers,etc.)...these days it's tv people talk about like that, which I think HONESTLY has to do with sub services demolishing traditional run times of linear filmed entertainment and people realizing that a series is a much more satisfying watch than a 2 hour movie (that was really always simply the business model of theater exhibition driving the art).
 
Jaffe drank the Game Pass kool aid. Hope you're enjoying the plethora of last gen games at your disposal davidjaffe davidjaffe

Will only be interesting to me 2-3 years from now when there are some decent Xbox first party games on there
 
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MrS said:
Jaffe drank the Game Pass kool aid. Hope you're enjoying the plethora of last gen games at your disposal davidjaffe davidjaffe

Will only be interesting to me 2-3 years from now when there are some decent Xbox first party games on there
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It has ZERO to do with Gamepass. It has to do with the business model. I don't care if it's Gamepass, an improved PSNow, Amazon Luna, etc. And I sub to ALL of those, by the way. I'm no console fan boy (#1- cause I'm not a moron and #2- cause I'm 50 fucking years old).
 
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Men_in_Boxes said:
Have movies and TV shows actually gotten better though?

The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Breaking Bad.

Have any shows risen to those levels in the Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu era?

And where are the Shawshank Redemptions? The Godfathers, The Schindler's List during the Netflix, Hulu era? It feels like the industry has gotten fat on superhero schlock and John Wick copy cats.
Click to expand...

Huh? Three of those four shows are HBO, requiring a premium subscription, and the other was AMC, which is also part of cable subscription services. Maybe you're thinking more along the lines of free over the air broadcasts?

Also arguing quality is pointless because it's all subjective. Imho, Ozark is as good as any season of Breaking Bad or Sopranos.
 
Those bullet points are terrible.

And they seem to support what critics are saying. I don't want bigger budget games to "fade away."

"Getting creative" via a sub service is code for you need to do something small and cheap because we can't afford a bigger game.

Netflix and Amazon Prime content typically is pretty bad. Netflix creates makes a bunch of bad documentaries, and very few quality shows. I mean "Stranger Things" was one of their big breakout hits, and there are like three seasons with ten episodes a season or so? And it's really slow going, AND the quality dropped off hard. Amazon Prime ... they couldn't even keep The Grand Tour going. I don't think they produce any TV shows or movies worth watching. It's all just filler garbage from what I see on the service.

Also the total audience for Netflix is waaaaay beyond anything GP will ever get (200 million subs) and TV content is cheaper to produce than a large game, barring big tv shows like Game of Thrones. But again, those are supported by very premium channels like HBO, not the Walmart of video that is Netflix. HBO could direct their funds in a more targeted manner, and it was probably the one show to be a cultural phenomenon until it tanked in the last season.

IMO video subs perfectly support the idea of what will happen to games if everything starts going that direction. Content will start being created as smaller, mass market, junk.
ManaByte said:
Netflix has 37 Oscar nominations this year.
Click to expand...
And your point is? Oscars have made extremely bad choices for quite some time. Also how many of those are technical?

Maybe I need to watch the video and am missing what the actual points were because I don't see how any of this makes sense.
 
ManaByte said:


Some good points here:

  • Subscription services like Netflix and Amazon Prime Video didn't affect the quality of movies and TV shows. If anything the quality got better based on the number of awards streaming services are winning (the Best Picture winner this year was on Hulu).
  • He spends time talking about the budget of big games from places like Naughty Dog and Santa Monica could fade away and how the riskier games will probably move to sub services.
  • People like Druckmann and Kojima could defect to things like PS Now and GamePass for more freedom to be creative.
Click to expand...


Jaffe likes indie games
Jaffe got chip on his shoulder about big budget games
Jaffe thinks we all buy indie games lol

I like watching him as I know whats coming, he has a clear agenda, and what seems a bit of a complex, and he tries different ways to get there and nobody gives a shit and I laugh at him trying to convince anyone.
 
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davidjaffe said:
It has ZERO to do with Gamepass. It has to do with the business model. I don't care if it's Gamepass, an improved PSNow, Amazon Luna, etc. And I sub to ALL of those, by the way. I'm no console fan boy (#1- cause I'm not a moron and #2- cause I'm 50 fucking years old).
Click to expand...
I respect it. Enjoyed your interviews with Colin the other day too. Keep it up!
 
James Sawyer Ford said:
Netflix doesn't have any great content, so he's definitely wrong

he needs to step back and stop aggressively shilling sub services

they are OK for calling all cars tier content, they don't really have a place for AAA unless publishers are willing to accept huge money hats or the service owner wants to lose tons of money
Click to expand...
It's weird. Its like you didn't even watch the video.

I assure you, I don't attack AAA games in the video, I say I love AAA games in the video, and the video is NOTHING AT ALL about the need for AAA games on sub services.

But carry on commenting on something you didn't actually watch, good sir :).
 
James Sawyer Ford said:
Netflix doesn't have any great content, so he's definitely wrong

he needs to step back and stop aggressively shilling sub services

they are OK for calling all cars tier content, they don't really have a place for AAA unless publishers are willing to accept huge money hats or the service owner wants to lose tons of money
Click to expand...
Netflix bad
 
He spends time talking about the budget of big games from places like Naughty Dog and Santa Monica could fade away and how the riskier games will probably move to sub services.
Click to expand...

will be a sad day if that ever happens i'd rather quit gaming than submit to gamepass or sub service model in general gaas multiplayer full of mtx trash

thankfully that won't happen any time soon when Sony blockbusters keeps breaking records
 
ManaByte said:
Netflix has 37 Oscar nominations this year.
Click to expand...
But you could also argue that it has that many nominations because streaming services have decimated the movie industry, the competition is gone.

The fear is that game streaming services will go the route of Ubisoft, where free-to-play live service games earn so much money that the whole company changes their course to only focus on such games. Or how Activision is turning studios into Call of Duty support studios because of the profit it masses over any other property.

Will GamePass and the inevitable Playstation equivalent start to build towards service games that make the money and bring in the masses for the service rather than support a more diverse line-up?

I don't think so, but who knows what we are looking at down the line.
 
ManaByte said:
People are just now discovering that you can't play offline games if your console isn't set as your Home/Primary and are screaming that it's an evil DRM trojan horse to fuel their 12 year old console warring.
Click to expand...
Which you pretend to be above. It's unnecessary. I can play steam games offline for christ's sake.
 
davidjaffe said:
people realizing that a series is a much more satisfying watch than a 2 hour movie
Click to expand...
Debatable when the series just tries to keep throwing things at you hoping you come back and stick with it/remain engaged (Season 2 on How to get away with Murder is already at that point halfway in the season). There is nothing inherently better or worse in a series as a format… and I would argue that subscription at the moment is still a doped field where mega giant are investing like no tomorrow and none of them is fully in a recouping phase. This is the first hit is free step IMHO.

I think sub based gaming ultimately is like the gold rush of old: few rich people make it (big publishers get their fangs deeper in their customers) and small indies/devs chase the gold rush dream willing to risk it in the hope of a big payoff in a more and more crowded space that fights for the same $11-15/month (or we see an American style cable market where subs go into the stratosphere on a per monthly bill level and justify it by bundling hundreds of channels).
 
James Sawyer Ford said:
Netflix doesn't have any great content, so he's definitely wrong

he needs to step back and stop aggressively shilling sub services

they are OK for calling all cars tier content, they don't really have a place for AAA unless publishers are willing to accept huge money hats or the service owner wants to lose tons of money
Click to expand...
Bojack Horseman
Orange is the new Black
The Irishman
Ozark
Narcos
The Crown

these just don't exist

davidjaffe said:
I don't understand. Can you explain?
Click to expand...

The amount of DRM built into the Series X is insane and people are excusing it because of gamepass and backwards compatibility. The amount of internet integration in the Xbox consoles are nuts and downright offensive to consumers. It's a Trojan horse towards the inevitable lack of ownership for consumers and their purchases. All these streaming and subscription services were the death of music and movie ownership and it's coming for games next.
 
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Gaming subscription services are having a hard time scaling at the moment. Apple Arcade is not doing that well with billions of iPhones out there, everybody just wants to play free-to-play games. The same thing will happen to consoles, just look at Ubi focusing more on free-to-play titles.

Game Pass is not really the future. The future should be what Playsation was talking about before they launch PS Now where you can play any game instantly for 1 hr max like a demo, then you can decide to buy it or not.
 
No one. Absolutely no one. Like, ever, said Gamepass is bad.

Is just a unsustainable model that is actually mantained because a certain company have some billions to spare here and there. If MS didnt profit from Windows, we would have never seen a service like Gamepass.

If MS still have years and years of margin to be lossing money, good for them.
Still, and like on steam, creative freedom doesnt equal to quality.

Also, I wouldnt take notes from someone who will spend the rest of his life calling himself 'God of war creator' in order to get clicks.
 
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TV shows have gotten worse and more fragmented since the maxing out of Netflix the past few years. Compare what's being made now to what was made in 2005, 2010 or even 2015.
 
amazon prime 200+ million subscribers
netflix 200+ million subscribers
In order to attract and support big budget games and talent, these are the numbers these services need to hit. its going to take time to get there. The quality of projects on prime and netflix just started getting decent over the last 5 years.
 
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Stooky said:
amazon prime 200+ million subscribers
netflix 200+ million subscribers
In order to support big budget games and talent, those are the numbers these services need to hit. its going to take time to get there. The quality of projects on prime and netflix just started getting decent over the last 5 years.
Click to expand...

Netflix still isn't profitable. I guess they're not sustainable either.
 
Dr Bass said:
Those bullet points are terrible.

And they seem to support what critics are saying. I don't want bigger budget games to "fade away."

"Getting creative" via a sub service is code for you need to do something small and cheap because we can't afford a bigger game.

Netflix and Amazon Prime content typically is pretty bad. Netflix creates makes a bunch of bad documentaries, and very few quality shows. I mean "Stranger Things" was one of their big breakout hits, and there are like three seasons with ten episodes a season or so? And it's really slow going, AND the quality dropped off hard. Amazon Prime ... they couldn't even keep The Grand Tour going. I don't think they produce any TV shows or movies worth watching. It's all just filler garbage from what I see on the service.

Also the total audience for Netflix is waaaaay beyond anything GP will ever get (200 million subs) and TV content is cheaper to produce than a large game, barring big tv shows like Game of Thrones. But again, those are supported by very premium channels like HBO, not the Walmart of video that is Netflix. HBO could direct their funds in a more targeted manner, and it was probably the one show to be a cultural phenomenon until it tanked in the last season.

IMO video subs perfectly support the idea of what will happen to games if everything starts going that direction. Content will start being created as smaller, mass market, junk.

And your point is? Oscars have made extremely bad choices for quite some time. Also how many of those are technical?

Maybe I need to watch the video and am missing what the actual points were because I don't see how any of this makes sense.
Click to expand...
Dr Bass said:
"Getting creative" via a sub service is code for you need to do something small and cheap because we can't afford a bigger game.
Click to expand...
100%. And that's the whole point.

RETURNAL is amazing according to many- including me- but it's tumbling down the charts.
DEATH STRANDING is not for the masses but according to those who have finished it, it very much IS a GOTY contender.
DUSK is one of the best FPS games made in years but it never would have been greenlit at a 20+ million budget.
AMONG US is one of the most successful games in the last 5 years but no way Sony or MSFT woulda ever made that and stuck it in a box and sold it for 40-70 bucks.

As the budgets go to the moon and back, like EVERY OTHER commercialized medium, the comfort for risk drops proportionately. And so YES, as we get more and more like the movie biz, 'getting creative' will mean- more often than not- that inexpensive is the best, most frequent, dependable way to get there.
 
James Sawyer Ford said:
Netflix doesn't have any great content, so he's definitely wrong

he needs to step back and stop aggressively shilling sub services

they are OK for calling all cars tier content, they don't really have a place for AAA unless publishers are willing to accept huge money hats or the service owner wants to lose tons of money
Click to expand...
Better Call Saul
 
It's still a tiny service with only 23M. It needs that 10x and at full price than being mostly $1-3/mo for 3 years to have good quality and be sustainable. MTX could shortcut that as well, and we know what that means.

In the age of F2P, Gamepass sounds like LTTP.
 
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Hard disagree on the quality of Netflix movies.....watched Army of the Dead last night,was looking forward to that one......absolute dogshit.
 
The gross revenue and profit of movies and TV has never been through sales. Movies are a show you pay to watch, that's why rentals have been so popular with movies/series since forever. No one is waiting day 1 when a movie first debuts to pay $30 and buy it for their collection. If every movie was put first on sale day 1 and not given an option to watch it on theater or rent it, the movie/TV industry would disappear in a matter of months, even if the movies were $5 a piece. Gaming is not like that. Gaming is a much more involved activity, and the name of the business is sales. Google, Amazon, MS etc., they have this idea gaming is for 1 billion people or something like that. It is not. Casual gaming on phones is one thing, gaming for real, hardcore, that will always be niche, perhaps until the day we can control the game with our mind, and even then, it won't be as effortless and widespread as movies.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
Have movies and TV shows actually gotten better though?

The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Breaking Bad.

Have any shows risen to those levels in the Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu era?

And where are the Shawshank Redemptions? The Godfathers, The Schindler's List during the Netflix, Hulu era? It feels like the industry has gotten fat on superhero schlock and John Wick copy cats.
Click to expand...
Aren't subscription services cable in us and satellite in eu?
 
laser_printer said:
Bojack Horseman
Orange is the new Black
The Irishman
Ozark
Narcos
The Crown

these just don't exist



The amount of DRM built into the Series X is insane and people are excusing it because of gamepass and backwards compatibility. The amount of internet integration in the Xbox consoles are nuts and downright offensive to consumers. It's a Trojan horse towards the inevitable lack of ownership for consumers and their money. All these streaming and subscription services were the death of music and movie ownership and it's coming for games next.
Click to expand...
Oh sure. But most consumers don't care.

I appreciate you and other folks do; nothing wrong with caring. But it won't change anything cause most people don't really care about it.
 
Watching the video now.

Couple of points. Netflix depended hugely on pre-existing content to keep people subscribed. Friends and The Office were the biggest draws for years. Look at the biggest movies over the past couple years. They are still movies done through the normal channels and NOT streaming services. Netflix, Amazon do not make better content than the movie studios. At least IMO.

His argument that people who like the big productions vs "the medium" being the ones who are not ok with GP, I'm not sure I get. Was that what he was saying? It's because I love "the medium" that I WANT to pay my dollars to people who are doing the work. I don't want games to become a Microsoft/Sony/Amazon subsidized Sizzler buffet of software.

Look at the revenue MS is bringing in vs Sony with their offerings. Arguing that MS buying all these studios and needing to support them with far less cash they are pulling in ... I just don't see how it's sustainable.

I love paying 20-30 dollars for smaller games when they look good. I like big games, I like small games. I just want to pay the creator directly for them. In fact, I don't even know if the video addresses GP all that much directly, just talking about the expense of games vs. how risky they can be, which of course I totally agree with. I just don't get the long term viability of GP in terms of a healthy game industry.

As always, I could be wrong. it's happened many times before.
 
If anything, endless numbers of people subbing to Netflix, Amazon Prime, HBO show people will pay top dollar for a sub plan if it's worth it.

HBO has awesome shows and is an extra sub plan on top of people's regular cable TV plan. And it works for them.
 
ManaByte said:
Netflix still isn't profitable. I guess they're not sustainable either.
Click to expand...
No, you are absolutely a sustainable business if you are not profitable. They just have enough recurring revenue and investors hope that if they win they win big and they will be able to increase profitability to make it worth their whiles… what would that means to you and I as consumers? Well we shall see.
 
davidjaffe said:
Oh sure. But most consumers don't care.

I appreciate you and other folks do; nothing wrong with caring. But it won't change anything cause most people don't really care about it.
Click to expand...
That's a valid point, we are not the norm, we are the hardcore crowd.

That said, isn't MS lacking in a AAA exclusive since Gears5 which was released in 2019?
I see your point comparing it to Netflix, but I don't think this is oranges to oranges.

We already have a very make or break mentality in the industry, and this could hurt it even more.
Nintendo already went the way of smaller cost, MS has no output to speak of since 2019.
Out of the 3 we only have sony pushing for AAA, don't you agree that this tells us something important on the state of gaming in general?

Remember how cellphones won't influence the gaming space?
We are being F***ed in the A** with the MTX now.
Who knows what BS GP will bring, but be sure it will bring something and I doubt it will be something that we (the hardcore) will like.
 
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