StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Netflix has made money since 2003. But the ramp up has only been lately since 2017.
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David Jaffe Addresses the Concern Over Gaming Subscription Services
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Dr Bass
Member
Well getting a reply from you is a little surreal.
I totally agree with ALL of this. But is Game Pass, or that model, the answer? To me the answer is to charge according to what makes sense on a per game basis. Games can cost anywhere from 5 bucks, up to the 90 bucks I paid (I think) for Chrono Trigger on SNES when I was a kid. It just depends on the title and it's value to me.
Also I just finished Returnal. Took me 40 hours to finish the first play through and was absolutely worth 70 bucks. One of the best games I've played in years. Weren't the digital sales for it really strong though? Anyway ...
I think what you're stating here is going to be universally true for entertainment for decades to come just because of the economic nature of what you're saying. Definitely. I just don't personally like the idea of sub services because of what they represent. The devaluing of software (much like what the App Store has done, I'm also a software engineer), centralized control of the sub providers etc. I love the mix we have now of creative smaller guys, and the bigger studios. GP looks like a Hail Mary pass subsidized by Windows and Office365, in effect.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
A few months ago, i wouldve agreed with you, but my favorite movie of last year was Trial of Chicago 7 which was bought by Netflix a few months before it was to come out in theaters. They basically used covid as an excuse to buy it knowing no one would go watch it in the theaters and managed to get a fantastic movie written and directed by Aaron Sorkin. A movie that was basically always going to come out in theaters. Irishman was also absolutely spellbinding though it came out a couple of years ago. One of the best movies ive seen and no one was gonna make it even with Scorese and De Niro behind it. They also just released Zach Snyder's zombie movie and he was very happy with how they just wrote him a check and let him do what he wanted. For better or worse Netflix seems to only care about filling holes in their monthly lineup and are willing to pay an ungodly amount of money to talent.
That said, 99% of what they produce is trash. lol
Stooky
Member
Netflix is fine they take all of their money and put it back into production. Its all about the content they own. Licensing films from other studios is not a good long term strategy. Netflix got huge boost from all the original comedy content they have, it was cheap to make with big returns. they used that spring board into more qualtiy films and shows. Gamepass/games subscriptions needs the same thing. Thats why Microsoft buying Bethesda makes sense. hopefully they put out some good games. they need the subscriber numbers to make it work.
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James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
It's weird. Its like you didn't even watch the video.
I assure you, I don't attack AAA games in the video, I say I love AAA games in the video, and the video is NOTHING AT ALL about the need for AAA games on sub services.
But carry on commenting on something you didn't actually watch, good sir
I have watched tons of your content, my main point isn’t necessarily about this specific video, but others you have made in the past.
I am not claiming you are attacking AAA gaming. However, you have been critical with Sony to the point where you suggest they risk getting left behind just because they aren’t all-in like Microsoft is with GamePass.
Your argument in this video is that Gaming subs represent this shift in the business landscape that allows mid-tier or AA content reach a broader audience and gain more success than a pay to play model. Perhaps you are right about this.
HOWEVER, that’s not really why people are excited about the future of GamePass, they love it because it brings AAA day-and-date to the service, the indie type content is just icing on the cake.
My issue is that a sub service at the AAA level is completely not self sufficient. Microsoft’s Windows and Office profits enable those losses so the service grows in users....but to what end goal? Eventually mandating that their AAA games stop being more ambitious or follow an episodic model?
I disagree that Sony has too much of a threat here, though. Gamers that want premium content are happy to pay for it. Just because Starfield is on GamePass doesn’t mean I will just get that service and forego God of War 2 as a stand-alone $70 title.
I also think technology is going to help dramatically lower dev costs, or at least slow their rise. The SSD, improved tool sets, and enormous asset libraries with procedural generation should help put downward pressure on AAA costs from spiraling out of control.
the only way a sub service at the AAA level could make sense and be sustainable is if Sony locks people into TV-like contracts...but then the consumer isn’t getting such a great deal, so what’s the point?
Bragr
Banned
No, it's not, you can't possibly argue that Superman 64 is as good as Super Mario Odyssey just because someone liked it. Personal variation does not remove the idea of quality products.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
The profit statements are skewed. They're losing money
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Balducci30
Member
Netflix doesn’t have any great content? What in the world
People talk as if we haven't seen what it has done to EA. EA Access shifted their focus.
EA no longer outputs things like the original Mass Effect, no more Dead Space, no more Mirrors Edge, no more Burnout Paradise level games. It's putting out GaaS crap like Anthem, seeing success with Apex legends and possibly removing SP from Battlefield in a battle royale field while cheaply cashing in on nostalgia.
EA no longer outputs things like the original Mass Effect, no more Dead Space, no more Mirrors Edge, no more Burnout Paradise level games. It's putting out GaaS crap like Anthem, seeing success with Apex legends and possibly removing SP from Battlefield in a battle royale field while cheaply cashing in on nostalgia.
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GuinGuin
Banned
And ubi with their new focus on f2p and ever increasing MTX.
Fbh
Member
The only thing I don't like about gamepass is the concept of releasing all first party stuff day 1 on it. I just don't see how that's sustainable in the long run while still making the awesome high budget single player games that I like.
Video subscription services haven't figured this out either, there's some good stuff on there but when you hear Netflix is releasing original superhero, action and sci fi movies you are getting stuff like project power, Extraction and Stoaway, not Infinity War, Mad Max Fury Road and Interstellar.
If more big studios fully embrace subscription services, then I hope they go for a model that supports both big AAA blockbuster games with their separate retail release (which then come to the subscription later on), as well as smaller (and hopefully more risky/experimental) mid-low budget projects for direct release on the subscription service.
Video subscription services haven't figured this out either, there's some good stuff on there but when you hear Netflix is releasing original superhero, action and sci fi movies you are getting stuff like project power, Extraction and Stoaway, not Infinity War, Mad Max Fury Road and Interstellar.
If more big studios fully embrace subscription services, then I hope they go for a model that supports both big AAA blockbuster games with their separate retail release (which then come to the subscription later on), as well as smaller (and hopefully more risky/experimental) mid-low budget projects for direct release on the subscription service.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
This will only give Sony more room to thrive even more being the only place to play quality games.
MacReady13
Member
And? Since when does anyone hold up the oscars as the barometer for quality? If ALL anyone is releasing at the moment due to the pandemic is on streaming services, where would you expect the nominations to come from?
The Hamburglar
Banned
Well Netflix originals had a few gems and hits once upon a time but most of their original shit both tv and movies are awful.
So Dave is wrong here about tv.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
But that's not what the video is about.
It's about today's very best AAA games being currently equatable to the great run of 80's/90's big budget movies that also had heart (Raiders, ET, Empire Strikes Back, Jurassic, Terminator 2,etc.) but as budgets go up, the heart and risk and unique aspects of today's games- like the blockbuster movies- will have no choice but to get less conceptually and mechanically interesting in order to pay for the increased production value. The video goes on to say: nothing is wrong with this. It is the way of ALL commercial entertainment mediums.
The difference is- and the point of the video is- a lot of the people championing today's AAA (nothing wrong with that) are wrong when they call themselves hard core fans of the medium of video games. They ARE hard core fans of games, sure. But it would be like ME - who loves top 40 music (the most $ successful brand of music genre)- acting as if BECAUSE I love Taylor Swift and TheWeeknd's music- I am a hard core music aficionado. When in truth, the actual afficionado's of music as a medium are those listening and loving and appreciating and seeking out ALL forms of music and comparing the forms, championing the unique bands that few have heard of but represent a shift in the art form,etc. And THOSE sorts of people will support ANY business model that allows more of the interesting, unique music to be heard and funded and supported.
Thus, to say you are a fan of the medium of games- the video argues- means you have to appreciate game sub services AT THE MOMENT. What they MAY do to games if the naysayer's are right is another issue. But what they are RIGHT NOW are a fantastic way to fund and promote games that- until sub services- would have probably faded into obscurity days after launch.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
This is the argument I buy as much as we all should have bought the “digital distribution means games are going to be a lot cheaper for gamers as they cut out the middle man, inventory management, printing costs, shipping, etc…”…
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
EA just put out IT TAKES TWO and STARWARS SQUADRONS. EA also took the time and effort and turned BATTLEFRONT 2 into a genuine fan favorite. EA also put out KNOCKOUT CITY this weekend which is fun as fuck. They put out an entire game that is a slow, female lead protag adventure about a woman on a boat dealing with her depression.
I'm not saying EA and their FIFA loot boxes and such are not worth being worried about. But to act like EA is still who they were 10ish years ago isn't really fair.
GuinGuin
Banned
There is nothing to indicate AAA games will or are stagnating in their concepts. If anything they are getting better and better pushing boundaries further and further. GoW 2018 told a much more mature and interesting story than any of the previous games. (No offense) And TLOU2 speaks for itself. The games medium is still in its infancy really and will only continue to improve as long as there are budgets to complete their visions. With new tools like Metahumans from Epic even more AA games will be able to fake AAA production values for a lower cost.
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Derift
Member
you guys need to stop disrespecting this man... we may not always agree but the disrespect is unnecessary
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
You are associating the quality of the medium with cut scenes and production value.
Which is fine.
But it proves my point.
You are a fan of games. And that is a fantastic thing to be.
But are you a fan of the MEIDUM of games? I dunno. It doesn't seem as if you are.
Also, the games medium is not in its infancy.
GAMES themselves have been around for millennia.
VIDEO GAMES have been around for 50 years already. Movies were commercialized in 1900. By 1950 there were plenty of films that are still regarded as brilliant, engaging, classics today (Wizard of Oz, Casablanca, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, It's A Wonderful Life, etc.)
A Most Virtuous Cat
Banned
Lets see MS release some first party "AAAA" games as they call them on gamepass day one. If they are not crap, then GP is certainly a killer offering.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
It's not the disrespect I find notable. I don't care about that.
It genuinely concerns me that people look at making games as if it's a dream job and they seem incapable of wrapping their heads around the idea that after doing it for 20+ years, people may want to move on.
Maybe it's a young person thing where you can't imagine walking away from what you think is a dream job. But I assure you, once the dream job stops being a dream job, it's just a job. And once it's that, the best advice- be you a game director or a grocery store bagger- is to look for a new adventure as soon as you are able.
MacReady13
Member
Like what Jaffe? What games would have faded to obscurity but are thriving due to game pass?
*Nightwing
Banned
I think the thought is spot on, but think a better analogy to use in comparison was the beginning of digital instead of comparing to other streaming services.
It is inevitable that video gaming will go streaming at some point like all other mediums.
But we resist as gamers until it benefits us like the switch from physical to digital. All indie developers pretty much went digital release only and many would not have survived without the exposure games with gold and ps+ gave them. Now look how huge steam is, not to mention the psn and live. And it still took the pandemic for gamers to switch the majority of sales over to digital instead of physical.
Spot on analysis, but it’s nuance is lost on us as gamers that go down kicking and screaming at every turn... too optimistic... not that it is a detriment in anything else other than gaming
It is inevitable that video gaming will go streaming at some point like all other mediums.
But we resist as gamers until it benefits us like the switch from physical to digital. All indie developers pretty much went digital release only and many would not have survived without the exposure games with gold and ps+ gave them. Now look how huge steam is, not to mention the psn and live. And it still took the pandemic for gamers to switch the majority of sales over to digital instead of physical.
Spot on analysis, but it’s nuance is lost on us as gamers that go down kicking and screaming at every turn... too optimistic... not that it is a detriment in anything else other than gaming
megreotsugua
Banned
This is what I fear as well. If the kind of gamepass service become successful, any game outside of it will find it hard to find success. It will be a dictatorship of what game gets made because only those with guaranteed inclusion in the service will have guaranteed profit returns.
I also hate for gamepass to be successful because that means Sony will have to follow suit. Their games have to change to fit within that model.
What I think Sony can do as an alternative is to just focus on PS Plus and bolster it with day 1 release of MULTIPLAYER GAMES. Like what they did with Destruction Allstars. Instead of following the free-to-play route, they could do a sub-to-play scheme. Bombard the service with multiplayer games with ocassional day 1 AA games. We are already seeing Sony do this though. I hope this is what they plan to continue to do in the future.
Virt McPolygon
Banned
Nah, they've definitely gone the quantity over quality approach. Most of the "originals" they offer are mediocre and simply forgettable.
ArtemisClydeFrog
Banned
Make sure to post this in the other toxic threads about different game journalists getting absolutely shit on for only doing things for clicks, money, etc. Hope you're not just cucking for this one guy.
reinking
Gold Member
I watched part of the stream that compared the services. It was informative but also from an outsider looking in it allowed me to observe where things are right now. It's not pretty. Even at the very best the comments were "I almost forgot I was streaming" kind of comments. Um.. ..yes, but not that it was being played at a much lower resolution that can be had from local gaming. It's kind of a hard sell to say "for a few minutes it's almost as good as..." and that is when things are working at their best. On the other end I heard "I wouldn't show this to anyone."
The positive that streaming brings is access but only for those that have a decent enough internet connection. My overall feel for streaming right now is it is niche and that is at its best. We'll have to see how the tech and the market shake out over the next 5-10 years. I get the feeling if we go all in on streaming I will become a retro gamer.
The positive that streaming brings is access but only for those that have a decent enough internet connection. My overall feel for streaming right now is it is niche and that is at its best. We'll have to see how the tech and the market shake out over the next 5-10 years. I get the feeling if we go all in on streaming I will become a retro gamer.
dcmk7
Banned
They are now just discovering?
According to this, you didn't know anything about it. Chalked it up as FUD.
Did you not get the memo?
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Cheers, Jaffe.
Netflix has much more great content vs Gamepass, it's incomparable, really. Also with Ubisoft going F2P, many big publishers will follow suit. And when many of these already take the vast majority of players like Fortnite and many other F2P games, how can a $180/year sub be sensible when all your friends are on F2P with no extra charge?
If anything, F2P games with heavy MTX will be the new thing, and players will buy top quality, GOTY contender games occasionally. Hardcore and casual gamers will stick with quality offering and avoid mediocre games, and only subscriptions that are sustainable are PS Plus that has been bringing some great games that can be kept forever as long as you have an active sub, and even that is just less than 45% of the whole playerbase and could collapse with more F2P.
There are barely any games as good as Fortnite/Genshin/COD Warzone on Gamepass, and those are 100% free.
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Bergoglio
Member
Love you Entroyp. You're always right.
GuinGuin
Banned
The maturity of the stories, production values and the intensity and quality of the combat go hand in hand, really. Video games are an evolving medium where as movies filming live actors really isn't in the same way. Too many pitfalls comparing games and movies really. The reason AAA gaming gets the most attention is because it feels the best to play. Crappy little indies? Not so much. The jank gets in the way of the experience. Also VR is the true future of the medium and it only just begun to show its promise.
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davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Descenders, Wasteland 3, Second Extinction, Crusader Kings 3, Gears of War HiveBusters.
Some of those would go into obscurity and some would just not be as big as they are with Gamepass.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
You don't even know what this is about tho.Make sure to post this in the other toxic threads about different game journalists getting absolutely shit on for only doing things for clicks, money, etc. Hope you're not just cucking for this one guy.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
but again, this medium of games you are talking about is NOT why GamePass is being heavily promoted. It’s because of Microsoft 1st party AAA content.
and sure, it’s all rainbows and unicorns as long as someone like Microsoft is willing to write the checks, but I don’t think it establishes some utopia business model for low cost gaming.
I’d just much rather consumers vote with their own wallets on games. We don’t really have any sales data to show whether Returnal or DS are profitable in the established business model.
Truth is, something like Death Stranding is way too expensive to not be considered AAA. It’s a weird game selling at full cost. I don’t see how that gets subsidized on GamePass unless at a loss, just like any other AAA game
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
No one is talking about streaming tho.
bitbydeath
Member
This.
It would end up sinking AAA gaming if not gaming altogether because profits will eventually need to be sought out which means cuts will be required. Maybe MS can drag it out for years but it’s unrealistic to expect many (any) other companies wanting to join them in losing money.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
You make DeathStranding on Gamepass (or PSNow) without the blistering visuals (go for a more style look) and without the big budget actors and mocap. You don't NEED any of that to make what made that game special special. Just like you COULD spend 200 million on a movie like NOMADLAND or PARASITE but you really don't need to.
Kokoloko85
Member
I like big budget AAA games, its not all I play but its mostly what I play. I dont see how it will be sustainable.
We clearly know MS isnt making any money off gamespass, so how will these expensive games be made?
Kojima’s games arent cheap, never have been. Neither is Druckman or Santa Monica games, so no thanks.
Let indies be indies and let AAA games be what they are. Uncharted or Ghost of Tsushima wouldnt be the same without the visuals or animation etc
We clearly know MS isnt making any money off gamespass, so how will these expensive games be made?
Kojima’s games arent cheap, never have been. Neither is Druckman or Santa Monica games, so no thanks.
Let indies be indies and let AAA games be what they are. Uncharted or Ghost of Tsushima wouldnt be the same without the visuals or animation etc
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Evil Calvin
Afraid of Boobs
I'm ok for riskier games going to sub services because then we will get some innovation and new stuff rather than the same old sequel and rehashes year after year.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think the reason why you might be losing people with this argument is that most people here just care about the AAA games nowadays. Fancy cinematics, big setpieces, epic scale.... basically you started the whole Sony first party AAA trend with God of War which is now become Sony's blueprint for all first party games.
So while it's great that MS is able to make indie games like Medium and B games like Outriders reach an audience they wouldnt otherwise, most people who are fans of GoW, TLOU and Uncharted, are like wtf when do we get those games from Gamepass? I mean Gamepass is almost 4 years old now and aside from Gears of War 5, I cant think of a single big AAA game from them. Let alone a GOTY contender. To use your own analogy, where is their Terminator 2? Or Jurassic Park?
I am sure they will come but people can list the last four years of $60 sony first party games against the last 4 years of day one gamepass releases and it wont even be close. With games taking longer and longer to make, are we ok with paying $180 a year for one Halo caliber game a year plus some forgettable 90s romps and indies?
GuinGuin
Banned
Why put it on GamePass or PSNow though? Just sell it for $5 like Among Us and hope to get lucky like they did. From what I've heard the money from these subscription services is a crap shoot too. Some devs get a lot. Some get a little depending upon their negotiating position.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
then the game loses a significant amount of appeal with a much lower budget.
what was so damned amazing about death stranding is that it had the weird indie gameplay in an absolutely mesmerizing AAA production. You get completely lost and absorbed into that world in a way that wouldn’t be possible without a huge team backing up Kojima
This concern about game releases or GOTY contender stuff has nothing to do with the business model of subscription services. In a world where Sony offered the same thing, I don't believe Naughty Dog would be making less quality games because of a business model.
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