-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
David Jaffe comments on the 360/PS3 (heated words is an understatement)
- Thread starter C- Warrior
- Start date
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
element said:
My argument, along with a few others were that during the course of the Xbox 360 games, they were hindered by what was given to them at the time they had it. You said that they had to scale to the hardware. I'm assuming that you mean, they could only push what was available to them, right? Also, the PS3 kits were better since the beginning and the 360 is just finally coming around. Is this line of thinking correct?
element
Member
yes, and no. Bizzare did something interesting by having a mode that displayed everything that would be in the final release, accept for textures. So they had a model of where it will be on final hardware for gameplay, and had a slow version with textures. That was a calculated move on their part. But most devs don't have that luxury.
That sound right. PS3 devs might see one or two hardware refreshes, where very early adapters to Xbox 360 are on fourth hardware refresh. Most PS3 devs will probably get final kits or beta kits as their first kits. The hardware will be closer to final when it falls into the developers hand for the first time, compared to Xbox 360, which wasn't close.
Agent Icebeezy said:
I do accept your argument, which is why I never questioned it. My point was that Finals are getting into the hands or are in the hands of X360 developers while PS3 developers are still working on Alphas and Sony by it's own admission hasn't been able to supply them with enough dev kits. So people asking for gameplay or doing direct comparisons with current footage of X360 games, have to realise that if PS3 alphas are 60-70% potential, they will only look much better with the finals. I guess what i'm saying is apples to apples comparisons can't be made just yet as X360 devs now have access to 100% of the 360's capabilities. I believe the PS3 finals will be out in January. Not quite in time for winter CES so those demos will be run on Betas.
TheInkyVoid
Member
element said:
Nope.
You either don't work at a real dev house or you do and have nothing to do with development.
element
Member
Actually graphically, PS3 really isn't going to get much better (for launch titles) then what we are seeing right now. Since developers are profiling on 7800 GTX, which is similar in power to the RSX. The HUGE change in power in the PS3 alpha, beta, and final will be the cell processor, not the GPU. So really, for launch titles, it isn't going to be light years ahead of what you see now.
all 20 developers who have them. As I said in a post above, most PS3 developers won't see a PS3 devkit until beta. Which goes into developers will have hardware closer to ship then they had with Xbox 360. But having something even slow, is better then nothing.
TheInkyVoid
Member
android said:
When someone spouts nothing but a laundry list of MS's damage control bullet points in their posts they lose any semblance of credibility.
Speevy said:
Those games prove my point. I hope no one would actually call Halo 2 a genuinely bad game, even if they were disappointed by it. It has gameplay mechanics that are solid, even great - that are transcendent. Just like Metal Gear Solid 2, just like Zelda: Wind Waker. They would not receive such high rankings and such incredibly strong followings if they didn't. But that does not mean they all go out of their way to appeal to the denizens of GAF, or whatever. Some games just won't, just like I make fun of Animal Crossing or Nintendogs. They'll never appeal to me, and though I tease people about them... it doesn't change that they have fundamental mechanics that people who DID like it would be pissed if it had such changes.
To the point: People especially since MGS4 trailer has been shown have been sort of implying or suggesting that "we better hope MGS4 isn't like MGS2, because all this hype would be for nothing!" Because they're both the first Metal Gears in their respective gens, and they're both from the same developer/director. That's wrong. Because if it WAS just like MGS2, it would once more receive wide critical acclaim and a super hardcore userbase. It'll also sell 4 or 5 million copies. It'd once more be a great game with great gameplay mechanics that just happens not to appeal to a certain subset of people at GAF.
element
Member
MGS4, Lair, and WarHawk. Those are a good bar of what to expect. At least I mean, that is what I expect. There will always be people lower then that.Razoric said:by what we are seeing "right now" do you mean things like the MGS4 demo? Because I can more than live with that.
Where is my 'damage control' for MS? If anything I have a vested interst in both platforms now. I'm just telling it staright. Both systems have things going for them, and both have things against them.
MS made a mode to give developers the platform early and hoped that they would profile their games accordingly with the changes in hardware. Some developers it has worked, some it hasn't
Sony is making the move to provide developers with a stable platform closer to final hardware.
If I had to pick, I'd rather be on the Sony model. Working on Xbox 360 has been a bitch, in terms of hardware. Let us not forget the 2.8 GHz final goof.
you haven't given any 'insight', so what do you have to bring to the table other the slandering me?
I could be wrong. I'd actually be happy if i was wrong. But it is looking like January, at least in good numbers.
element
Member
TheInkyVoid, we don't seem to see eye to eye, but we do agree on one thing. The programmers on God of War were the real heroes of the title 
I would like to know what was 'damage control' in my post though. I didn't think I was protecting MS in any of my thread. If anything I'm far more crytical of MS then I ever have been. You should see me talk about their presentations >Die Bach Die!!!<
Any insight would be appreciated.
I would like to know what was 'damage control' in my post though. I didn't think I was protecting MS in any of my thread. If anything I'm far more crytical of MS then I ever have been. You should see me talk about their presentations >Die Bach Die!!!<
Any insight would be appreciated.
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
element said:
A lot of late nights lately?
TheInkyVoid said:
He's been pretty even-handed in his responses, and has lots of credibility to back it up. He's basically saying what happened, not spinning it one way or the other.
You on the other hand are acting like a child who does not like what they hear, no matter who they hear it from. You're doing nothing but being a drag on an otherwise interesting conversation; the GAF equivelant of a heckler.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
PS2 KID said:
Hey, did you get to help pick the cover art for God of War too?
I was so giddy when he let us blog posters vote like that, plus being one of the lucky guys to get TWO count em' 2 God of War demo disks straight from Santa Monica. You can be sure I've got the hand written address labels locked away for safe keeping.
I can say this to everyone else here, with a high degree of certianty, David Jaffe doesn't B.S. people. I know I sound like "Total Stupid Noob Sony Fanboy STFU", but it's the truth. If David says PS3 is far more powerful than 360 it's a pretty safe bet PS3 is far more powerful than 360.
I won't be surprised to see him show up here if the thread doesn't get locked before then.
Maybe instead of screenshots and videos, next-gen we can have....
Game Developer Celebrity Death Matches.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
HomerSimpson-Man said:
Point taken.
I'm heading to bed.
For the rest of you, just take a break from all the fighting.
Make love not war.
Click me for more pretty asian girls like the one below.
Kabuki Waq
Member
i just glossed over JAffe's blog and came upon this quote
"saw the trailer for INTO THE BLUE the other day and it got me thinking about why people buy certain video games, and pass on others.
The movie- if the trailer is to be believed- is a stylish, fast paced, action-romance about deep sea divers looking for treasure in the Atlantic Ocean. It stars Paul Walker (from The Fast and Furious) and Jessica Alba (of Sin City,etc) and it looks pretty good. When the trailer was done, I was thinking, "yeah, I'll probably see that if the reviews don't suck".
:lol
If you guys have ever seen the god awful trailer you will know why i find this quote funny.
"saw the trailer for INTO THE BLUE the other day and it got me thinking about why people buy certain video games, and pass on others.
The movie- if the trailer is to be believed- is a stylish, fast paced, action-romance about deep sea divers looking for treasure in the Atlantic Ocean. It stars Paul Walker (from The Fast and Furious) and Jessica Alba (of Sin City,etc) and it looks pretty good. When the trailer was done, I was thinking, "yeah, I'll probably see that if the reviews don't suck".
:lol
If you guys have ever seen the god awful trailer you will know why i find this quote funny.
Yeah, I did vote for the winning one. Unfortunately, I got my god of war demo disk from Sony and not Jaffe.
I pointed out his blog because emotions run high here and hearing my words about Jaffe won't really sway people. Instead I want people to read his words and see that he's very open with what he says. Then decide for themselves if they would believe him.
You could say your brain would say Carmack is right for many reasons.. but your heart would say Jaffe is right because he, like many of us, is a passionate gamer and doesn't like BS.
Hopefully he'll show up and give his side of it.
Unfortunately, I got my god of war demo disk from Sony and not Jaffe. I pointed out his blog because emotions run high here and hearing my words about Jaffe won't really sway people. Instead I want people to read his words and see that he's very open with what he says. Then decide for themselves if they would believe him.
You could say your brain would say Carmack is right for many reasons.. but your heart would say Jaffe is right because he, like many of us, is a passionate gamer and doesn't like BS.
Hopefully he'll show up and give his side of it.
SolidSnakex
Member
Kabuki Waq said:
Never underestimate Jessica Alba in a bikini.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
element said:
One element (no pun intended man
) of the transition from Beta to Final hardware that worries me a bit is the change from PCI-Express-Southbridge between CPU and GPU set-up you have now (which forced them to push 512 MB of GDDR3 since they could not take advantage of data streaming through the FlexIO bus between the two chips) to the two-ways 35 GB/s FlexIO connection. I think some developers will get badly burned if their assets do not fit anymore in VRAM and they haven't set-up a good streaming model from the CPU to the GPU, but Sony should be giving final hardware by this December or earlier I hope and the launch in the U.S. and Europe will not likely happen until Q3 2006 at least with maybe the U.S. launch pushed a bit closer to the Japanese one. So there is time to fix things.I hope that RSX does hold some tricks that did not make it in G70... <cue old story about the Video Processor and those extra 20+ MTransistors that such processor would use and maybe are doing only nVIDIA and SCE know what in RSX
>.Edit: might not be too clear...
The current Beta kit has the CPU and GPU separated by the Southbridge and the CPU and the GPU are connected to it using IIRC PCI-Express (surely from the GPU to the Southbridge).
Some things such as the ability of the CPU and the GPU to directly read and write into each other's memories currently does not work although you can stream data from CPU to GPU and GPU to CPU, but those copies must also face the problem of low bandwidth and higher latency that the current connection brings to the table.
I think it is for this reason that the GPU VRAM is 512 MB instead of 256 MB, 512 MB of XDR RAM is more natural in a dev-kit as they normally always give you more RAM than the amount of memory supported by the platform to allow you to keep debugging data and functions in memory, data that won't be needed in the "Release" build.
Having more VRAM allows you to pre-load much more data for the GPU to use and if you want to stream you can allow yourself the use of much smaller transfers as you would need to stream much less data: if VRAM is big enough you load the entire level's textures, normal maps, light-maps, etc... in it and also those 3D models you will not have to touch with the CPU (not animated or only processed by the Vertex Shader programs).
I think the current bandwidth between the CPU and the GPU in the current kits is about 5 GB/s while the final one should be about 35 GB/s although VRAM as it was mentioned will only be 256 MB and not 512 MB.
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Panajev2001a said:One element (no pun intended man
I hope that RSX does hold some tricks that did not make it in G70... <cue old story about the Video Processor and those extra 20+ MTransistors that such processor would use and maybe are doing only nVIDIA and SCE know what in RSX
I've always wondered, do you work for Sony? I don't mean offense by it. I'm an Xbot if you will, but I've long enjoyed reading your posts, just curious
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
No, I do not work for Sony, but that does not mean I do not want to in the future .
.Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Cool, good luck to you on that wishPanajev2001a said:No, I do not work for Sony, but that does not mean I do not want to in the future
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Agent Icebeezy said:
Thanks, you too
.I would trust Carmack. He always speaks his mind on the technological front and I believe he doesn't have a fanboy bone in his body. He has no love for any particular company, he is just interested in technology in general. I respect his opinion as a developer.
David Jaffe I am not even really familiar with.
David Jaffe I am not even really familiar with.
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Dr_Cogent said:
He made God of War, Twisted Metal, among other titles
ZombieSupaStar
Member
you know who we need in here we need the return of
and
to make IDs game count for anything anymore (sorry carmack)
and
to make IDs game count for anything anymore (sorry carmack)
fortified_concept
Banned
Most PC developers are morons who don't know shit about programming on consoles so they always start bitching about every little difficulty they find on their way. We've seen it with the Steam pimp and we'll see it again. IMO they're the amateurs of the console industry. They go with the console which resembles most to a PC because they aren't used to different architectures and they never will be, especially when they never try them. Plus the majority of them are Microsoft's bitches. Sorry but Carmack is anything but credible. Neither is Jaffe of course for obvious reasons.
celestial body
Member
I thought the memory for the GPU in the current Kits is 256MB (for the G70 version), nothing in the playstation meeting slides back in early summer mentions an increase IIRC, only that the XDR was 512. Those Goto slides have been wrong in the past but then again so have I...
GitarooMan
Member
I don't understand why anyone even argues that X360 equals the power of PS3. It's coming out earlier, so it's going to be less powerful. Does that mean it will automatically be inferior? No, depends on the games. This is probably PS2/Xbox all over again, just reversed. PS2 seemed to survive pretty well, even with its inferior hardware
fortified_concept said:
You actually make it sound like programming a console game is much harder than programming a PC game. If you don't know shit, please stay out of the conversation. Carmack has worked on consoles for your information and I'd say he's anything but an amateur.
Carmack is a god, seriously he has helped spawn more influential games that most are too young to remember. To just dismiss his point of view is stupid. Its fine not to like a guy, but someone like carmack has done so much for the industry and he deserves respect.
Its hard to believe what Jaffe has to say seing as though he is firmly set on one side of the fence, but he could be right. Wait and see i guess.
Its hard to believe what Jaffe has to say seing as though he is firmly set on one side of the fence, but he could be right. Wait and see i guess.
fortified_concept
Banned
Apenheul said:
No I make it sound like consoles have different architectures compared to PCs and since most PC devs don't know shit about how to program a console they find it hard to. So they go with what resembles the most to a PC. And btw Carmack trying to downplay physics is another indication of how biased he is.
maximum360
Member
Again, there will probably some suffering from some real emotional trauma when both consoles are out and the differences graphically are negligible.
Sony has you caught up in the hype. They always do it and people still fall for it. Unbelievable.
Cell = The New Emotion Engine.
I guess since people never learn, history will repeat itself all over again.
Sony has you caught up in the hype. They always do it and people still fall for it. Unbelievable.
Cell = The New Emotion Engine.
I guess since people never learn, history will repeat itself all over again.