Hurricane_Chris
DDK
Panajev2001a said:No, I do not work for Sony, but that does not mean I do not want to in the future.
mbwahahhaha
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David Jaffe comments on the 360/PS3 (heated words is an understatement)
- Thread starter C- Warrior
- Start date
mbwahahhaha
These comments should not be played off against one another - they're not contradictory, they're addressing different concerns.
Jaffe's comment and "preference" for PS3 is based explicitly on power. Carmack's comment and "preference" for X360's CPU is based on ease-of-develiopment.
There isn't a conflict here, and we shouldn't be wondering "which to believe?". Both simultaneously can be right here.
Jaffe's comment and "preference" for PS3 is based explicitly on power. Carmack's comment and "preference" for X360's CPU is based on ease-of-develiopment.
There isn't a conflict here, and we shouldn't be wondering "which to believe?". Both simultaneously can be right here.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
maximum360 said:
Are you a graduate or just working for your senior thesis at the Deadmeat College for Universal Pointlessness (DCUP) ? Another major win for 1-800-DEADMEAT people!
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
ddkawaii said:mbwahahhaha
Is it so infernal to work there
?
PanopticBlue
Member
sirris said:
QFT
Not sure if this had been mentioned, but I'd have to think Carmack's opinion is slightly biased simply because MS sees Id, their games, and their engine as very important to the console's success, while Sony apparently doesn't give much of a damn and went straight to Epic for their big name partner.
To me its like trusting what ATi says (Carmack) versus what Nvidia says (Jaffe). They both have their own reasons for saying things, neither is an unbiased source. While Jaffe's bias is as obvious as his job, Carmack's is tied to the state of the industry, and the role his company plays in it. In an MS dominated industry all the PC developers take a seat at the head of the 3rd party class, but if Sony continues to dominate we'll see PC oriented 3rd parties have to take a second class role behind Sony's long time allies such as Square Enix, Konami, Namco, Capcom, etc..
To me its like trusting what ATi says (Carmack) versus what Nvidia says (Jaffe). They both have their own reasons for saying things, neither is an unbiased source. While Jaffe's bias is as obvious as his job, Carmack's is tied to the state of the industry, and the role his company plays in it. In an MS dominated industry all the PC developers take a seat at the head of the 3rd party class, but if Sony continues to dominate we'll see PC oriented 3rd parties have to take a second class role behind Sony's long time allies such as Square Enix, Konami, Namco, Capcom, etc..
Drek said:
your comparison is shit because, as has already been stated, Carmack is an OpenGL whore, and has even recently been very critical of the path MS is taking on PC developments (basically forcing developers to migrate to Direct3D).
Why are people still doing this? You have one guy who is a first party developer, saying his console is much, much better. Then you have Carmack saying they're comparable. People are reaching to try and believe Jaffe. Wait for at least someone who is significantly less biased than him to stake your claims on.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Jaffe hasn't worked on a PS3 game yet according to his blog. They're pitching a PSP game. Great blog, btw.
Pseudo judo
Member
Gotta love this forum. Jaf blasts the 360 as a piece of crap compared to the PS3 and calls anyone who believes other wise a crack head, and almost no one here says much or anything at all in rebuttle. Carmack says he likes the 360 and that it's basicaly not the PS3's bitch and he gets flamed as a has been PC dev deep into MS pocket.
:lol
:lol
What surprises me is that no one in this thread has remembered that Jaffe's paycheque is signed by Sony, given that he works for SCE Santa Monica or whereever. So of course he'll say these things.
The ensuing argument over specs and shit is just you fishies falling hook, line and sinker for the arms race of tech details that MS and Sony want you to get drawn in by.
The ensuing argument over specs and shit is just you fishies falling hook, line and sinker for the arms race of tech details that MS and Sony want you to get drawn in by.
maximum360 said:
Does this cause you to have trouble sleeping at night? I just want you to know... I'm here for you man.. if you need to talk or whatever....
Mr Mike said:
What surprises me is that people already have pointed out that Jaffe made God of War and various Twisted Metals.. .. what thread have you been reading?
These threads always generate the follwing:
1. Posts of people supporting the statement that one console is more powerful than the other.
2. Posts of people arguing against the statement that one console is more powerful than the other.
3. Posts of 'l33t' pointing out that bias inherent in the statement that started the argumen.
4. Posts pointing out that this will change nothing.
This will change nothing.
I never said anything about OpenGL, or Direct3D for that matter. Its about the future of his company. If MS controls the industry he and many other PC devs (like Bioware) jump to the head of the 3rd party class. If Sony controls it however they'll keep the same Japan based 3rd party regime of Square Enix, Konami, Capcom, and Namco firmly in power.Nerevar said:
Remember the early days of the PS2? All that bitching Itagaki did? There was a reason for it. Tecmo, namely Team Ninja, felt slighted by Sony's treatment of them compared to how they treated the major Japanese 3rd parties regarding development support and dev kits. We've all seen Sony's double standard when it comes to their prefered 3rd parties, so it wasn't really a surprise then. Do you think another generation of dominance will change that any?
Id is a second class citizen in a Sony controlled video game industry. They're a top tier developer though in an MS controlled industry, where the old PC developers, with their long standing ties to MS, become the new vanguard. The rewards are much greater for Carmack to partner up with Microsoft, no matter what his distaste might be for the company or the hardware, than they'd be if he were to align himself with Sony. Do you really think someone as smart as Carmack doesn't already see that?
I don't take either as iron clad fact myself, but then I'm a few courses shy of a computer science bacheleors and can make up my own mind on where I think the two systems stand.
WHOAguitarninja
Member
Mr Mike said:
This has been pointed out about a hundred times.
Great blog Jaffe's got. He really seems like a very honest guy who's not afraid to say what he thinks. I really enjoyed his post about the In to the Blue trailer, now I actually wanna see the movie :lol
I remember JC assistant saying something about JC testing the PS3 kit and saying "this is a pain in my ass" and he went back to his X360 kit. Sounded as if JC didn't gave the PS3 kit the chance.
Everything points out the PS3 is the most powerfull console but the X360 is easier to develop. But Sony has been great with the PS3 in terms of development tools compared to the PS2 fiasco.
I remember JC assistant saying something about JC testing the PS3 kit and saying "this is a pain in my ass" and he went back to his X360 kit. Sounded as if JC didn't gave the PS3 kit the chance.
Everything points out the PS3 is the most powerfull console but the X360 is easier to develop. But Sony has been great with the PS3 in terms of development tools compared to the PS2 fiasco.
Drek said:
I'm betting this isnt too far from the truth. I can't believe some people in here actually believe the great JC doesnt have any bias anywhere. My god... His company is about to push Quake 4 and probably planning a shitload more PC <-> 360 games. PS3 doesn't exactly fit into his equation and, like the poster above said, he probably wouldnt be that excepted on a PS3 platform anyway. On 360 he is god, on PS3 he's just another FPS dev.
I'm with Cogent and Element on this one...I'll trust Carmack's comments much more than I trust any 1st party developer.
Holly shit...are you guys STILL completely misquoting Carmack? That's NOT what he said...look up a full transcript and read the entire thing for once instead of looking through choice quotes picked by people with an agendaSantaCruZer said:
I don't see the controversy. One guy is saying that the PS3 and 360 are not equally powerful at all, and the other saying that the PS3 is not "an order of magnitude" (doesn't that mean 10x?). So it's somewhere in the middle. Noticeably more powerful, but not to the extent that it makes it look like there's a one gen gap between them. Something like the PS2 and Xbox situation (with the roles reversed, of course) would suit me just fine.
Oh, and MGS2 was pretty f'ing amazing. In fact, I think it's the best in the series. More balanced than MGS3, and far more complex than MGS1.
Oh, and MGS2 was pretty f'ing amazing. In fact, I think it's the best in the series. More balanced than MGS3, and far more complex than MGS1.
I don't think Carmack is biased really, just that he has different priorities. And an order of magnitude is 10x, which I doubt anyone believes. I don't think there's ever more than a percentage increase in raw performance.
Back on the alpha/beta kits. How do you explain DOA4 looking virtually the same at E3 as now? GoW? That was apparently running on 6800s at E3. What has changed for games not named Kameo and PD0 (which suffered more from gen-portitis than hw performance)? Art assets for FCK have stayed the same. The improvements have been shaders and lighting. Art assets for CoD2 have stayed the same. Again, lighting and shaders are the difference. Ditto for a number of other 360 games from summer.
The improvements sinec E3 have been incremental in almost all cases. The only thing alpha/beta kits affected was the ability to run a game at some level in realtime. Beta kits, in particular, had DX9 cards in them, so were almost feature-complete. There's not much else Xenos brings AFAIK. It's USA and has MEMEXPORT, but by the same token, PS3 alpha/beta kits are missing some functionality as well.
I don't think this is any excuse for launch titles as it would be for any console launch before this. Launch games never maximize hardware, so there will always be improvements in later gens. But the same applies to the PS3 and the Rev. Early PS3 stuff is still looking better than 360 stuff that's running on beta/final kits. The dev kit argument just doesn't hold up. PEACE.
Back on the alpha/beta kits. How do you explain DOA4 looking virtually the same at E3 as now? GoW? That was apparently running on 6800s at E3. What has changed for games not named Kameo and PD0 (which suffered more from gen-portitis than hw performance)? Art assets for FCK have stayed the same. The improvements have been shaders and lighting. Art assets for CoD2 have stayed the same. Again, lighting and shaders are the difference. Ditto for a number of other 360 games from summer.
The improvements sinec E3 have been incremental in almost all cases. The only thing alpha/beta kits affected was the ability to run a game at some level in realtime. Beta kits, in particular, had DX9 cards in them, so were almost feature-complete. There's not much else Xenos brings AFAIK. It's USA and has MEMEXPORT, but by the same token, PS3 alpha/beta kits are missing some functionality as well.
I don't think this is any excuse for launch titles as it would be for any console launch before this. Launch games never maximize hardware, so there will always be improvements in later gens. But the same applies to the PS3 and the Rev. Early PS3 stuff is still looking better than 360 stuff that's running on beta/final kits. The dev kit argument just doesn't hold up. PEACE.
All those developers out there who prefer to, you know, develop rather than bitch.Speevy said:
Hey, if those animations are good enough for you, then that's dynamite. For me, they're stiff, the transitions are poor and the lack of realistic movements is very jarring against the meticulously detailed backgrounds.Shompola said:
And Carmack isn't stuck in the past, are you fucking joking? I suggest you find a link to some of the shit he's been spouting over the past few months, especially in regards to his thoughts on physics/AI/animation vs. technical visuals.
Number one, I never said every single 360 title was disappointing, and two, are you serious? 3 fucking titles out of, what, 40?! I'm supposed to be impressed? That's a god damn joke man. As I've said before, expect more from your money for goodness sake. There is no reason why we should all have to lower our expectations and demands on MS' account.Speevy said:
So let me get this straight, I'm one of the last people on this board to talk, but you, you're totally in the clear right? Even though you've got, by your own damn admission, over $1000 invested in the 360 already, and you've purchased almost every fucking launch title to be released, and you actually come on these freakin' boards every day and act as if you can even for one fucking second speak objectively about the system, right?!Agent Icebreezy said:
...
My favorite part is that your only line of defense is calling me a fanboy, as if for one second you've thought I might actually give a shit what a guy like you has to say.
pissy little kids these daysSantaCruZer said:
SEARCH: FULL TRANSCRIPT CARMACK
RESULTS: http://ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=59227
sonycowboy
Member
shpankey said:
As has been said before, the comments aren't contradictory before. Jaffe certainly has less impartiality given that he works for Sony and for him to say that the PS3 is better has to be seen in this light.
However, he has been known to be a pretty honest and forthright guy, so I think crucifying him over this is a bit much. An interesting approach to the comment might be that absolutely nobody on the Xbox development side is saying that the 360 is more powerful other than Microsoft claiming that the whole platform from hardware to services to development are in the 360's favor, while we've had quite a few developers claim that the PS3 is noticably more powerful.
Finally, while Carmack has been an OpenGL guy, is a huge icon in the industry, as well as not being a Microsoft employee do give him ALOT of credibility, you should also know that Microsoft has been courting this guy for A LONG time. From the development of Direct X, to being on of the premier consultants for the original Xbox, he's had a ton of contact with Microsoft. I'm not sure that Sony has done anywhere near the level of "recruiting" as Microsoft. He also seems to place an incredible amount of importance of dev tools and their maturity (which really everybody should), and I think it's clear that Microsoft is in the lead in this area.
Neither of the guys are making comments in a vacuum. They both have affiliations with other parties and agenda's for their comments and to think otherwise, is unbelievably niave.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
element said:
I think FlexIO (35GB/sec) will help alot too compared to PCI-Express (2GB/sec) used in current PS3 kits...
In fact, you will probably see a decent jump in power once the final kits arrive in December:
Current Cell ~75% as fast as final PS3/PS3 Devkit
Current XDRAM ~75% as fast as final PS3/PS3 Devkit
Current GPU 70% as fast as final PS3/PS3 Devkit (but with twice the onboard memory BW) and lacks some features of RSX
PCI-Express used in current dev kit (2GB/sec) is FIVE PERCENT as fast as FlexIO(35GB/sec)
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Like hell, just take those people off Ingore dude.
Anyhow, what has Carmack done for the PS2? I'm just curious because everybody is so quick to refute the claim that he's a PC guy, thus not really qualified to comment on consoles, and I'd really like to see what he can do with my piece of hardware. Y'know sort of how Itagaki claims he maxxed out the PS2 within six months of launch. Did Carmack even come close to Itagaki's coat tails? :lol
sonycowboy
Member
element said:
Do PS3 games need to look much better than they do now for launch? They look pretty damn good already. I hope they spend as much time on just making them great playing games. Also, very few developers have had much time with the 7800 as well. The great looking games at E3 were all based off of a dual 6800, except for the NVidia & the SCE demos.
In addition, The games should look quite a bit better because they'll have another 9-12 months before the titles are released in the US, whereas the 360 titles have to be ready to go in about 2 months now.
shpankey
not an idiot
sonycowboy said:
Recruiting Carmack? Uhh... ok, whatever there... if they did they wasted their time, everybody in the industry knows he likes to do his own thing with his small group, as always.
And Carmack has a history of being impartial and brutally honest. He has been on both sides of the ATI and nVidia wars many times, and always for the right reasons (reality). I've seen him dog everyone in the industry and also point out things each were doing right. He doesn't have a biased bone in his body... he's a techy through and through and if you ever read his stuff you would know he's more about all of these companies getting to where he wants so he can do what he wants to do. Which is why he sets on almost every advisory committee of every company in the business.
Jaff isn't even really a techie... he just works with a bunch of them. So you're getting second hand information from a first party developer.
I cannot even believe anyone would compare these two in this regard and call them even or a toss up. It shows a complete lack of knowledge about either of them. Carmack's opinion carries a significant amount more weight. And by that, I mean an order of magnitude more.
fortified_concept
Banned
shpankey said:
Can you reply to The Take Out Bandit's question please?
And trying to dismiss Carmack's obvious involvement with MS is kinda funny.
sonycowboy
Member
shpankey said:
EVERYBODY has a bias. His just happen to be less about the moneyhat and more about forwarding his idea of where the industry should go. His idea, of course, is very much rooted in the PC sector, one in which he has much more control.
I am not calling him a Microsoft lackey in any way. He's proven time and time again that he does have an independant voice. I'm just saying that it's possible that his interests might be more in sync with Microsoft's than with Sony's. On the other hand, can we stop portraying him as a bastion of purity here? He's a successful brilliant guy with a business. So, the bottom line is that he has exposure to a variety of factors that can influence his decisions, with the most notable being the health and success of said company.
shpankey
not an idiot
You confuse game design and direction with developing (the technical side; ie: programming, etc.). In relation to this thread, it is the developing aspect which is prevalent, which is where Carmack is a genius and where and why his opinion is so heavily respected.trmas said:
Some more from GameInformer from another dev - the developers of Rumble Roses on X360:
http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200509/N05.0916.2039.01789.htm
Maybe worth its own thread, I dunno..
http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200509/N05.0916.2039.01789.htm
Maybe worth its own thread, I dunno..
You were off the mark. He never said physics were not worth the effort, he said overly intensive physics were ("real simulation of the world")
That's quiet a bit different than him “[not even being] intrested in physics next generation because he said "it's not worth the effort"” so...yeah...you were misquoting him
Carmack favoring X360 because Sony licensed Epic's Unreal technology doesn't make sense considering Microsoft licensed Unreal, too.
The idea that the X360 isn't competitive for calculating physics and pressures less involvement on a developer like Carmack who doesn't think it should be the development focus makes no sense because the X360 can be a monster at physics between its tri-core CPU and MEMEXPORT GPU functionality.
Carmack being intimidated by console architectures, as if "console architecture" actually meant anything meaningful at all, doesn't make sense considering he personally tackled one the most "console-like" (non-PC) architecture of all when he programmed the Atari Jaguar.
The idea that the X360 isn't competitive for calculating physics and pressures less involvement on a developer like Carmack who doesn't think it should be the development focus makes no sense because the X360 can be a monster at physics between its tri-core CPU and MEMEXPORT GPU functionality.
Carmack being intimidated by console architectures, as if "console architecture" actually meant anything meaningful at all, doesn't make sense considering he personally tackled one the most "console-like" (non-PC) architecture of all when he programmed the Atari Jaguar.
Lazy8s said:
It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. A couple of things to note here are:
1) physics across both the cpu and gpu that are interdependent could be very very difficult, if not impossible, from a numerical stability point of view. so it may be one or the other.
2) using the gpu for physics would sacrifice power for graphics
3) you don't need memexport to do physics on a gpu. it would help and make things easier, but it's not a necessity. in other words, ps3 could also use its gpu in addition to cell for physics if you really wanted, and in fact, with regard to numerical stability, kutaragi has said that they have included "synchronised" rounding and cutoff modes between cell and rsx to ensure the consistency of results between the two.
Drek said:
This assumes that Carmack doesn't make a ground up engine for the PS3. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but he has proven himself more than capable of such. As well, the land of Nippon will continue looking West if they wish to grow their segment of the industry. In which case they will have to consider Western taste in games.
Ninja Scooter
Member
who cares what either of these guys says. Just wait for the games and then we'll see what they really think and can do with the respective hardware. The proof is in the pudding, everything until then is just pointless lip service.
Plenty of shit can fly without lying to do it. Worst part of conversations like this is the posters who immediately jump to sullying the character of an individual they don't even know just for the sake of making the laziest argument possible in the attempt to dismiss that individual's comments.HokieJoe said: