Sibersk Esto
Banned
If BVS proved anything to me, it's that Snyder's idea of learning from his mistakes is to satisfy a checklist in order to justify the same mistakes as before.
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DC Cinematic Universe |OT| Superfriends with Benefits
- Thread starter Penguin
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Hans did her theme
Schweinehund
Member
Is she with you?
I loved that fight scene, but it was way too short. I loved seeing them do their combo attacks. I'm so fucking excited for JL. I don't care if padding it out another 2-3 minutes would add no plot value to the movie. Going to love when we get the full league going against Brainiac or Darkseid.
Looking like 172 million for the weekend. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-batman-v-superman-877979
Kenzodielocke
Banned
It's funny, a lot of people hated it.
I liked it too, but it was too much on the nose in that one scene.
Thanks. Goddamn, I LOVE THIS TRACK. <3
How is what I said in any way a personal insult?
They don't need to get rid of Snyder WB just needs to tighten the leash be more hands on if the editing is not working then bring in someone that makes it work ect ect, I'm really looking forward to JL now that the hard stuff is out of the way I hope Snyder can make it work
I think he's a hack because I think he's a bad filmmaker. That's a judgment on his work product. I don't know anything about him personally, he's prob really nice and chill.
But that's not a personal insult, it's an assessment of his competence. If we're talking about how well made a film is, if a person feels the film wasn't well made, it is fair to say the filmmaker is... incompetent.
Schweinehund
Member
I acknowledge it being cheesy but I loved that scene.
That's good. I don't know where I want this movie to land, at least high enough that they don't consider a reboot or scrap their slate, but also make it so they have more oversight on Snyder.
I don't think people fully understand what they're saying when they hope the movie crashes and burns. This is our first real opportunity to get some of the more obscure
better
That's not a personal insult. It's just a roundabout way of saying that the man continues to fail to deliver his promises, which is something almost everyone can agree with no matter how much they like his movies.
thehypocrite
Member
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
I don't know, I tend to believe that the movies that truly reflect a director's vision are the best ones. Snyder's vision is not working out but I dont think Warner trying to salvage Justice League in panic mode is going to result in a great movie either. They need a new director but they have no time... I just don't really see a scenario where Justice League is a great movie. I really hope I'm wrong though.
I kind of feel the same way - buuuut I think if they can simplify the script and really work on the editing, it can be okay. And I really don't like Zach.
thehypocrite
Member
Listen - I'm not trying to personally attack you or ruin what is a pretty great community thread. I'm going to hold off on posting my more honest but harsh criticisms here in the future, I totally get it. That said we have to agree to disagree here.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I think I can agree that Snyder is the primary culprit for BvS' issues, which I mostly chalk up to editing more than anything else. Everything comes together cohesively, but only if you view it as an abstract, rather than trying to take things purely as they're presented. Judging it by execution, it has a TON of problem, most of which can probably be laid at his feet.
Have Affleck codirect JL1, don't even have to change any of his ideas, just make sure the damn thing works properly. We're good.
Have Affleck codirect JL1, don't even have to change any of his ideas, just make sure the damn thing works properly. We're good.
I don't really agree there. BvS is clearly 3 totally different ideas that don't even fit well together, being forced together into a singular film. It's not cohesive at all. The parts are far more interesting than the whole.
thehypocrite
Member
Not a manner of opinion. You are wrong on that. Here are some examples of hack directors so you can educate yourself about it.
http://www.ifc.com/2010/01/paycheck
I mean, come on lol. It's very clearly something you can have an opinion on (my opinion not even being that controversial - or to rephrase that, it's not an uncommon thought).
Kenzodielocke
Banned
I don't want to wait 3 years for a Batman movie.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
Yeah, I could get behind that.
As much as people make fun of Aquaman, with Momoa in the role and James Wan as the director, I think that audiences could be interested in that film even if it come out before Justice League. I hope for them that they don't go overboard with the budget though, while I wouldn't mind an Aquaman movie with a 250 million dollars budget, that would probably be a stupid decision.
thehypocrite
Member
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
Seen it. I will see it again just to reassure my opinion. Until then, I will just say that I enjoyed it.
Schweinehund
Member
I think they'll slot Batman soon, for 2018. I can't imagine them signing Ben and not intending to get his solo films out ASAP.
Poodlestrike
Banned
What are the different ideas, in your opinion? I thought the various arcs of the movie fed into eachother quite nicely.
So estimates have the movie ending up at 385 million domestic. In the box office thread people are saying the film isn't doing so hot in China and will only end up at 100-110 million.
For comparison in China Ant-Man did 105, AoU 240, Avengers 86, Winter Soldier 115, Iron Man 3 121, Guardians 96, TDKR 52, MoS 63.
For comparison in China Ant-Man did 105, AoU 240, Avengers 86, Winter Soldier 115, Iron Man 3 121, Guardians 96, TDKR 52, MoS 63.
Agreed. Spoilers, sorry submitted without tags:
Batman being cynical and turning on Clark more and more.
Superman wondering more and more his place in the world.
Both being manipulated by Lex in those regards as Lois works to uncover it.
This all comes to a head when Lois finds out and everything converges. Lex is the one that ties it all together.
Superman wondering more and more his place in the world.
Both being manipulated by Lex in those regards as Lois works to uncover it.
This all comes to a head when Lois finds out and everything converges. Lex is the one that ties it all together.
Is Zach Snyder the new George Lucas?
I mean Lucas dropped out and produced his movies because he had to run his company/empire. Are we looking at a strange vision of what might have happened if he had taken the other path?
Solid SOAP
Member
I don't understand this perspective. Wouldn't you rather wait a while for then to have a competent vision of the character that's interesting and thoughtful instead of something rushed and stupid? Batman Forever and Batman & Robin came about when WB saw the money flowing from merely pushing the Batman brand with little thought or care, Batman Begins and TDK came after years of thought and debate regarding the best possible way to portray the character on the big screen.
BvS, imo, came about from feeling the need to simultaneously Kickstart a new Batman movie brand alongside the rest of DC's universe and felt rushed as fuck to me. I don't want the same from the next solo Batman movie. DC need to take their damn time and make a great movie!
For me, Doomsday is the really big thing that just sticks out and doesn't work. I agree generally with the rest of your thoughts, better execution could have tied it up more neatly
The majority of the movie is a variation of The Dark Knight Returns. Those elements work the best and feel the most organic. Then there is the desire to tie The Death of Superman into the climax as well, and that requires Doomsday. This part mostly feels tacked on and underdeveloped. The final component is all the JL tie ins. The only thing that works here is Wonder Woman, while the Knightmare stuff and the Metahumans videos are so disjointed and irrelevant to the film that they should never have been in it.
Flash and Aquaman spin out of and take place after Justice League. The solo movies aren't origin stories so moving the schedule around would require a lot of retooling I imagine. It'd be better to just delay the whole thing than start shifting things around all willy nilly.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Man, I don't know if I'd
classify the JL teases as an element unto themselves like the Dark Knight Returns or Death of Superman stuff is. They take up all of 15 minutes of the movie. You're right that they're definitely not at all well integrated, but they're also comparatively minor.
As for the rest,
the trick I think is that they're not doing the Dark Knight Returns or the Death of Superman in a vacuum, they're pulling in Death of Superman elements to sort of refute Dark Knight. Superman sacrifices himself to save humanity, showing that the fear that's consumed Batman is misplaced. Doomsday is used to kill Superman, partially because that's the story, partially because hey why not it's a big fight worthy of the Trinity. Honestly, they could have just had Luthor kill him directly with some big doomsday device rather than the actual Doomsday, but the net effect is basically the same.
Solid SOAP
Member
I would consider the inclusion of WW and the Doomsday fight a Justice League tease. It felt so out of place given the themes of the rest of the movie and was clearly inserted to help kickstart their new franchise. Instead of further the little plot the movie tried establishing.
Very nice man.
I agree with everything you said, wow.
But I do love legimatly this movie, I hope my issues with it dissapear with the DC.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Hmm... I guess that's fair.
Honestly, the
Wondy stuff was ultimately extraneous to the plot, but it was so damn good (other than the cameos) that
Doomsday fight, while maybe not strictly necessary in the sense that there were other options available, was definitely a good way to conclude Superman and Batman's arcs.
And there's a ton of plot in the movie.
There are at least 7-8 scenes throughout the film building the JL stuff. It might be 15-20 minutes of runtime at most, sure, and a lot of it is integrated into other scenes, like the fight with Doomsday, but it's hardly minor especially when the subtitle is "Dawn of Justice". It's something they consciously wanted to do, and that one failed the most. It weakened the pace of the film and added more questions that didn't need to be there, especially for the Knightmare scene. This is probably comparable to the Avengers plotline running though Iron Man 2.
As for how they integrated themes from TDKR and DoS together, I don't feel it was organic at all. There's clearly two very separate things going on here. One is Batman being manipulated to fight Superman, and in doing so they both discover more about themselves and each other and end up joining forces. The other is Lex having a secret desperate backup plan where he creates a giant monster for honestly no reason at all other than him being insane, and that ends with Superman's death because they really wanted to have an epic Superman funeral scene in the movie. I don't feel his sacrifice is an answer to the BvS conflict at all, because I feel he already won Bruce over before Doomsday even showed up. That theme was done. This just added more layers which would be better served in another movie where it can be fleshed out more.
They don't need the Doomsday fight at the end at all. It's a random cool action 3 on 1 fight. Nothing more. If they just focused on taking elements of TDKR and making a solid BvS movie with better motivations and a better plan from Luthor, it would have been far superior. Then they could follow it up with a Death of Superman movie where Luthor continues scheming until he goes too far and Superman pays the ultimate price. Or not go there at all, because honestly, no one really buys that Superman is dead nor does anyone feel sad about it. The black coffin is cool as fuck, but that's about it! All the Justice League stuff... they can do in... Justice League. The Knightmare sequence would actually be a great fakeout to open the JL movie with, before Bruce wakes up to a warning from the Flash and the title credits come up.
As for how they integrated themes from TDKR and DoS together, I don't feel it was organic at all. There's clearly two very separate things going on here. One is Batman being manipulated to fight Superman, and in doing so they both discover more about themselves and each other and end up joining forces. The other is Lex having a secret desperate backup plan where he creates a giant monster for honestly no reason at all other than him being insane, and that ends with Superman's death because they really wanted to have an epic Superman funeral scene in the movie. I don't feel his sacrifice is an answer to the BvS conflict at all, because I feel he already won Bruce over before Doomsday even showed up. That theme was done. This just added more layers which would be better served in another movie where it can be fleshed out more.
They don't need the Doomsday fight at the end at all. It's a random cool action 3 on 1 fight. Nothing more. If they just focused on taking elements of TDKR and making a solid BvS movie with better motivations and a better plan from Luthor, it would have been far superior. Then they could follow it up with a Death of Superman movie where Luthor continues scheming until he goes too far and Superman pays the ultimate price. Or not go there at all, because honestly, no one really buys that Superman is dead nor does anyone feel sad about it. The black coffin is cool as fuck, but that's about it! All the Justice League stuff... they can do in... Justice League. The Knightmare sequence would actually be a great fakeout to open the JL movie with, before Bruce wakes up to a warning from the Flash and the title credits come up.
I enjoyed the movie a lot for what it -is-, but honestly, I don't think these themes meshed very coherently at all! They were stuck together by barbwire and sheer willpower.
Aquaman, Cyborg, Flash cameos on those videos Batman sent to WW I feel served no purpose and felt out of place, Flash warning Bruce was amazing though I loved that.
I saw Superman very naive the whole time, I could see his inner sadness and struggle, his anger and at the end his acceptance that no matter what he does maybe he will never be loved by everyone and making the ultimate sacrifice in the name of his love for Lois.
I feel very attached to this comicbook character that I got a little teary when what I predicted would happen, happened, This is my world track along with what I was watching was for me very powerfull, even my wife told me "This cant be it for Superman can it" a little sadness on her face, that I couldnt help but tell her "Dont worry he will appear on JL"
Sorry for posting all this spoilers in here but I dont want to go to those other threads lol.
In that case I'm sorry, I always assumed being called a hack was more reflective of the person and not so much his ability. I have no problem with someone calling anyone else incompetent based on their work.
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