Support NeoGAF

[johnnydrama]

Arrow season 3 was average at best and season 4 is straight up dumpster fire. Legends of Tomorrow was never interesting to begin with. Supergirl and Gotham are... I don't even know who watches them. Only good DC show on TV right now is The Flash. No guys, DC TV ain't that great either.

I don't read comic books. Most of my DC love comes from the animated series and animated films, which are mostly still pretty good. I hope Suicide Squad is good, or I'm gonna flip out.

 

[Future Foundation]

Arrow season 3 was average at best and season 4 is straight up dumpster fire. Legends of Tomorrow was never interesting to begin with. Supergirl and Gotham are... I don't even know who watches them. Only good DC show on TV right now is The Flash. No guys, DC TV ain't that great either.

So, you're only watching two (?) of the seven shows they've got on TV and judging the line based on that?

 

[johnnydrama]

So, you're only watching two (?) of the seven shows they've got on TV and judging the line based on that?

I've seen pretty much all of Arrow till February. All of Flash. Six episodes of Legends of Tomorrow. I think the same number of Supergirl. Season 1 of Gotham. Almost all of Constantine. What's the other shows?

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Season 2 of Gotham is pretty enjoyable if you forget everything about DC. It's just fucking crazy.

https://zippy.gfycat.com/FelineColorfulBison.webm

 

[Wingfan19]

God, I watch every superhero show (except Lucifer and iZombie). I love them all so much. For as much shit as Arrow gets, I just don't care. I enjoy watching superhero shows on TV as I never thought I'd be seeing this stuff in live action. I guess I'm just easy to please. Gotham is amazing this year and Supergirl has turned it around to distance itself from Superman references and "girl power" from the earlier episodes.

 

[GeeTeeCee]

Season 2 of Gotham is pretty enjoyable if you forget everything about DC. It's just fucking crazy.

Yeah, I can't say it's necessarily good tv, but it sure is enjoyable.

 

[Future Foundation]

I've seen pretty much all of Arrow till February. All of Flash. Six episodes of Legends of Tomorrow. I think the same number of Supergirl. Season 1 of Gotham. Almost all of Constantine. What's the other shows?

Gotcha, gotcha. iZombie (which has been AMAZING) and Lucifer are the two other ones. Supergirl got better and Gotham's been much more enjoyable.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

What is amazing about iZombie ? Maybe I'll give it a try.

 

[Discotheque]

Arrow season 3 was average at best and season 4 is straight up dumpster fire. Legends of Tomorrow was never interesting to begin with. Supergirl and Gotham are... I don't even know who watches them. Only good DC show on TV right now is The Flash. No guys, DC TV ain't that great either.

I don't read comic books. Most of my DC love comes from the animated series and animated films, which are mostly still pretty good. I hope Suicide Squad is good, or I'm gonna flip out.

Gotham season 2 is so far beyond the other dc shows in quality

Season 1 was a guilty pleasure. But 2 I can actually call one of the best shows on network tv if not the best atm

 

[jackdoe]

What is amazing about iZombie ? Maybe I'll give it a try.

It's funny as hell.

 

[bryanee]

Gotham season 2 is the best comic book show on TV. You can disagree but you would be wrong

 

[anaron]

Supergirl is amazing. who the fuck can hate Kara Danvers

 

[Poodlestrike]

iZombie, fwiw, is both Vertigo and barely resembles the source material. So there's that.

It's a good show, though, which furthers my thesis that direct proximity to the comics doesn't count for shit.

 

[Discotheque]

Supergirl I gotta get around to. I like her personality quite a bit. Just really burnt out on the berlanti formula. When you already watch like 3 of his shows it gets to you

 

[bryanee]

Supergirl I gotta get around to. I like her personality quite a bit. Just really burnt out on the berlanti formula. When you already watch like 3 of his shows it gets to you

Supergirl is really hit and miss. It has some truly great moments and then it turns to complete shit.

 

[Effect]

Gotham season 2 is the best comic book show on TV. You can disagree but you would be wrong

This where I really am. I love the Flash but Gotham is and has remained at the top for me. It's a wild show and even at it's worse I'm still insanely entertained by it. Flash clearly is the best at invoking emotion but Gotham's "To hell with canon we're doing our own thing so either get on board or not" attitude makes for great viewing. It embraces the crazy and it should because Gotham is a F'd up place. I have to remind myself this is the city's' descent as well.

 

[ReiGun]

Supergirl is nice because it's the only Berlanti show where the female characters aren't totally wretched or so one note as to barely be characters.

The writers on that one should put on workshops for their counterparts on Flash, Arrow, and Legends. Cat Grant alone shits on the entirety of their female casts.

 

[Pachimari]

Gotham is the best show on tv right now for me. I quit Arrow, Legends of Tomorrow and Supergirl. Haven't seen iZombie and Lucifer, and I continue to watch The Flash.

I also still think Batman v Superman were a great movie, and I am super excited about Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman. And Justice League.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Gotham season 2 is the best comic book show on TV. You can disagree but you would be wrong

This, it isn't even a competition.

 

[broncobuster]

Gotham S2 nails its pacing in a way all the rest don't. The mini-arc format does wonders. Flash and Daredevil higher highs, and I prefer both overall, but they drag to fill in the season.

 

[Poodlestrike]

This, it isn't even a competition.

Yup. Pure unadulterated madness, every episode.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Yup. Pure unadulterated madness, every episode.

So good

 

[Effect]

Supergirl is nice because it's the only Berlanti show where the female characters aren't totally wretched or so one note as to barely be characters.

The writers on that one should put on workshops for their counterparts on Flash, Arrow, and Legends. Cat Grant alone shits on the entirety of their female casts.

Completely true and it's going to be a huge disappointment if it doesn't get renewed.

 

[shingi70]

This thread is a den of cynicism.

 

[BadAss2961]

Zach Snyder!

Seriously how is he still going to do JL.

He's going to make the safest Justice League movie he possibly can, and the suits will see to it. That's how... No attempts at anything too heavy, dark, or hardcore this time.

Even as a Snyder fan, I see it as a good thing for JL's sake. The first JL needs to be a light, fun, crowd-pleasing event that anyone can enjoy. I always figured this would be the natural progression from BvS to JL, because really, BvS was always going to be dark as fuck, even before it turned out to be Death of Superman on top of Miller inspired. BvS reception will ensure the progression to a light JL.

It should also work for the best creatively, giving Snyder more time and perhaps more leeway to indulge more in what he does best than where he divides. Action, spectacle, cool shots.

 

[Effect]

Don't think I want them to but I fully expect Wonder Woman to not end up as dark as they originally intended. They're still filming too so they can alter its tone.

 

[Lord Virgin]

I really don't understand why, we already get those light-hearted fun with Marvel. Do we really need DC doing the same? I love the dark approach, it's different and more interesting (to me).

 

[Oddduck]

Gotham season 2 is so far beyond the other dc shows in quality.

Season 1 was a guilty pleasure. But 2 I can actually call one of the best shows on network tv if not the best atm.

Gotham S2 nails its pacing in a way all the rest don't. The mini-arc format does wonders. Flash and Daredevil higher highs, and I prefer both overall, but they drag to fill in the season.

Gotham is the best show on tv right now for me. I quit Arrow, Legends of Tomorrow and Supergirl. Haven't seen iZombie and Lucifer, and I continue to watch The Flash.

Gotham season 2 is the best comic book show on TV. You can disagree but you would be wrong

This where I really am. I love the Flash but Gotham is and has remained at the top for me. It's a wild show and even at it's worse I'm still insanely entertained by it. Flash clearly is the best at invoking emotion but Gotham's "To hell with canon we're doing our own thing so either get on board or not" attitude makes for great viewing. It embraces the crazy and it should because Gotham is a F'd up place. I have to remind myself this is the city's' descent as well.

Yup. Pure unadulterated madness, every episode.

Co-sign. Gotham S2 has been one hell of a show. I look forward to it every week.

A completely different animal from Season 1.

 

[Future Foundation]

So good

That Bruce smirk is still so fucking boss.

 

[ReiGun]

I wouldn't be surprised if the plan was always for Wonder Woman and Squad to be lighter movies.

Not that it matters. However they turn out, people will make the narrative be that they were changed due to BvS.

 

[Effect]

I really don't understand why, we already get those light-hearted fun with Marvel. Do we really need DC doing the same? I love the dark approach, it's different and more interesting (to me).

I don't think they need to go full Marvel. Not at all. However not scaring kids to much would be good.

I used dark when I really shouldn't have as I think that is the wrong word to really be used with these films. Serious, somber, gloomy are the words that really should be used instead of "dark" I think. There are parts in BvS I think are more scary for kids. Violence is kind in your face but there is no blood. I don't think there is any cursing save for one. On that front I don't think it's any different from other PG-13 action films.

I think a lot of the somber and gloomy aspect could be change by seriously stopping Snyder and company from using dark filters or at least not using them for the entire film. That I think would do wonders for the more mainstream audience member and even critics. You can still have the serious story and serious events taking place but without a possibly oppressive cloud over it all that some might feel due to color choices. I think this is a problem with people when they're talking about tone yet they can't really express what their issues are on this front. Marvel films are brighter. I won't say overly colorful but they look more natural look with their filter and lighting choices. I think that aspect of them is separate from the jokes or general light heartedness you might find in the characters. Look at the highway fight from Winter Solider. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o8VGH5xV4Y Still a very tense and good action scene but it's not overly dark.

The problem I see though is how do you do all the special effects you need to do without that filter to try and hide some of the problems.

My concern with Wonder Woman on this front is the footage we've seen so far. It looks darker color wise then even Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. Talking about the footage we've seen from the CW special. Suicide Squad looks to have the best use of color/lighting of the group. However like Marvel films you're dealing with street level characters that might have powers. It just might be easier to do that without applying a darker filter to it.

I hope the color direction was just for the CW special and the final film (Wonder Woman) does not look like that. That I see being a problem if it does.

 

[ReiGun]

I think I told y'all I work in a school. Well, I wanna say it trips me out that I can't show any of these new superhero movies to my students while they're in school. If it's not the violence, it's the language.

I really hope both WB and Disney make more animated movies in the future like Big Hero 6 and Lego Batman.

 

[Cheebo]

I really don't understand why, we already get those light-hearted fun with Marvel. Do we really need DC doing the same? I love the dark approach, it's different and more interesting (to me).

When a movie makes 54 million its first Friday and is down to only 6 million its third Friday then that proves audiences don't like the approach taken in a film. A readjustment is clearly required.

Look at the DCAU, how much fun that was and full of just pure fun material and that was a pitch-perfect portrayal of DC on screen. I can't see why some see this as a negative for a change going forward. DCAU is the greatest on screen super hero universe bar none.


There is a Gotham love fest now? Awesome, that show is so under appreciated. Love it and all its insanity.

 

[IconGrist]

When a movie makes 54 million its first Friday and is down to only 6 million its third Friday then that proves audiences don't like the approach taken in a film. A readjustment is clearly required.

Look at the DCAU, how much fun that was and full of just pure fun material and that was a pitch-perfect portrayal of DC on screen. I can't see why some see this as a negative for a change going forward.


There is a Gotham love fest now? Awesome, that show is so under appreciated. Love it and all its insanity.

That doesn't prove the approach is bad, just that it was executed poorly. You can still maintain the tone set by MoS and BvS but improve the execution.

 

[Cheebo]

That doesn't prove the approach is bad, just that it was executed poorly. You can still maintain the tone set by MoS and BvS but improve the execution.

There is no way to pinpoint exactly what about the two films that made audiences reject them to be fair. It likely isn't just one factor but a mix of all the various things that they got criticized for.

The only thing they can do is look at what super hero movies had good reviews and good word of mouth and see what they did right

 

[Firemind]

When a movie makes 54 million its first Friday and is down to only 6 million its third Friday then that proves audiences don't like the approach taken in a film. A readjustment is clearly required.

Look at the DCAU, how much fun that was and full of just pure fun material and that was a pitch-perfect portrayal of DC on screen. I can't see why some see this as a negative for a change going forward. DCAU is the greatest on screen super hero universe bar none.


There is a Gotham love fest now? Awesome, that show is so under appreciated. Love it and all its insanity.

Maybe the advance tickets were bloated? People who wanted to see the movie already saw it the first weekend. Of course the reviews didn't help the following weeks. That is a given.

As for the DCAU, I saw The Killing Joke teaser and yeesh, the animation is spotty.

 

[antovolk]

For what it's worth: not only the 3hr Ultimate Cut is gonna be included with all the Blu-ray releases of the film, but also this cut, and not the theatrical cut, will be the version released on 4K Blu-ray.

 

[Schweinehund]

I really don't understand why, we already get those light-hearted fun with Marvel. Do we really need DC doing the same? I love the dark approach, it's different and more interesting (to me).

Hmm, we don't "need" any tonal changes, just it's an uphill battle whenever you're trying to change the way people perceive certain heroes or go for a more serious take. If you have a goal like that then you better make sure you can sell it. Hell I just watched the first iron man again and Tony kills like 5 people with a shoulder canon, then blows up a missile that ends up killing all the bad guys (Terrorists in this case) without batting an eye or showing remorse. The reason people accept that is because there is no image of iron man in their head, and the film doesn't reflect on how inherently awful of an act killing someone like that can be. They just roll with it like it's normal.

I'm not implying BvS's reception is only because of it's tone or anything like that of course but I think what Snyder is trying to accomplish with his films is overly ambitious and some people feel he doesn't have the chops for it. He should tone it back down to like Day of the Future Past level of storytelling.

As for BvS's WoM, I think there are some people out there that have an unhealthy obsession with this movie, even before the first trailer dropped, due to Man of Steel. BvS was like the day of reckoning for them and they went with it full throttle. It's easy to tell when the most negative threads are essentially echo chambers of 5-6 people with a few new faces popping in every once in awhile. I've never seen this level of vehemence, it even makes Man of Steel look tame. I don't doubt that it's turned some people off the movie and that can have a damaging impact when WoM is exponential on some level. Throw that in with a confusingly edited, overly ambitious movie that runs a little dry on action, and its hard to spot people that absolutely loved it.

My friends (not necessarily fans of MoS or DC) say the critics were overly harsh (I'm assuming they couldn't distinguish between RT% & Average rating) and said it was either ok or good, but they weren't raving about it on facebook or twitter.

 

[vegeta101]

God I'm getting so tired of movie threads on gaf. It seems like every single new thread made about movies people just shit post about DC related films.

 

[Ninjimbo]

Snyder hasn't really done anything lighthearted in awhile. Dawn of the Dead is probably his most upbeat flick and that was written by James Gunn too. I wonder if they could team up to do something else again. Hopefully for JL, Snyder can tap into some of that to reach a larger audience.

Anyways, I didn't know Gotham S2 was going so great. I saw the first half of season 1 and liked it. Just couldn't finish it because I kept missing episodes every week. It started to get serialized and I didn't want to miss anything. I guess I should jump back in.

 

[Error]

I really don't understand why, we already get those light-hearted fun with Marvel. Do we really need DC doing the same? I love the dark approach, it's different and more interesting (to me).

You can have a dark tone, but for the love of god just make these characters likeable. I can't get behind the version of these characters at all. I'm ok with Batman being in a dark place mentally IF Superman is the complete opposite, but there's no contrast in this movie, both characters are just dour, depressing, and plain unlikeable.

Expect a lot of comparisons between CW and BvS in the coming days from the internet, why one is successful while the other struggled, and frankly I can't blame anyone that tries to compare them... both have basically the same premise.

 

[Effect]

I don't think the drop off means people didn't like the approach. I don't think you can tell that from this. It might mean people didn't feel the need to keep going back to see the film the next weekends after first or second time. It means more of the mass market didn't feel compelled to see it like other films that pulled in more money. They can't reject something unless they've really seen it. I do think the bad reviews played a part here of course.

How many films actually get repeat viewings or appeal to all markets? Very few actually. I think because we're looking at just superhero films this is getting skewed. Especailly if we're looking at Marvel films that have been on the market for years. Yes Batman and Superman are well known but WB has to prove themselves first. I never assumed it would be a slam dunk. Especailly after some didn't like Man of Steel and before Superman Returns and we weren't having Bale as Batman again and how people feel about Snyder and how he makes films. I wanted it to but never felt it was going to. If were looking at a rejection then we should look at the latest Fantastic Four. That's what a complete rejection looks like. Some people are trying to make this seem like that but it isn't at all.

I think you might be able to determine like or dislike by how the home video sales go. If people don't care to pick that up then maybe you can determine if people on mass hated the film. Who want's a film they hated in their collection after all? Yes on mass people weren't raving about the film but unlike critics they weren't bashing it. The general feeling I get that most simply liked it. Some liked it more after a second viewing. It may just be that type of film where it takes repeat viewings. There are a lot of those films. You don't feel compled to see a film multiple times in theaters if you just liked it. You have to love it. However not loving it isn't a rejection of what it was trying to do. It's not that black and white.

I know for me I saw the film three times. That opening weekend on Thursday with my sister, that Friday with other family and my sis, again that Saturday with my sister as we both wanted to see it again. A combination of that seeming like enough, especailly money wise, and not having time is why I haven't gone again even though I do want to see the film again. I'm pretty sure a lot of the people that really enjoyed the films might be in the same boat. Going to the movies isn't really a cheap thing. It adds up.

 

[jackdoe]

There is no way to pinpoint exactly what about the two films that made audiences reject them to be fair. It likely isn't just one factor but a mix of all the various things that they got criticized for.

The only thing they can do is look at what super hero movies had good reviews and good word of mouth and see what they did right

It's definitely a combination. The way I see it, there are two options. They can fix their narrative and coherence issues but maintain the tone, and actually make a film as tight as the Nolan Batman movies. Or they can focus on changing the tone to something more friendly like the Marvel movies, which should help them skirt by some complaints about coherence issues.

 

[Dead]

For the few of us that have a 4K TV + 4K Blu-Ray player, the 4K Blu-Ray will have the Ultimate Cut in 4K, the theatrical edition won't even get a 4K version. Guess that says something....

I'm looking forward to it. The Bat vs Supes fight in HDR is going to be glorious

 

[antovolk]

For the few of us that have a 4K TV + 4K Blu-Ray player, the 4K Blu-Ray will have the Ultimate Cut in 4K, the theatrical edition won't even get a 4K version. Guess that says something....

I'm looking forward to it. The Bat vs Supes fight in HDR is going to be glorious

Any film with IMAX footage will be a must in 4K.

And yeah, actually didn't Kingdom of Heaven only at first have the Director's Cut on Blu-ray too? The fact that WB are putting in money to even do a 4K Blu master for this - which at 3 hours is def pushing the boundaries of the format, that's something for sure.

 

[Dead]

Honestly I was worried we'd get the theatrical in 4K and the Ultimate on blu-ray alone. Surprised it's the other way around, but I guess it's just proving that the Ultimate Cut is really what the film was intended to be.

 

[Odoul]

That the 3 hour cut is essentially getting pushed as the movie is interesting.

I liked the movie but I definitely saw where a little fleshing out could help.

I'm almost 100% sure that Luthor is gonna be the biggest beneficiary.

 

[Dead]

That the 3 hour cut is essentially getting pushed as the movie is interesting.

I liked the movie but I definitely saw where a little fleshing out could help.

I'm almost 100% sure that Luthor is gonna be the biggest beneficiary.

I think Clark will get a big boost too. That the dude actually goes to Gotham to investigate Batman...and that it was cut...it so hurts his character and his motivations. Supposedly there is a scene where he interviews people at a Gotham prison who were victims of the Batman.

I really feel like the rumours that WB wanted more Batman were not bullshit, only it wasn't reshoots, but they literally just gutted Clark's scenes to put a heavier slant on Bruce.

 

[Firemind]

Nah, Snyder cut the most of Clark. It's super obvious during the congressional hearing. He just casually strolls in. :lol

 

[IconGrist]

I think Clark will get a big boost too. That the dude actually goes to Gotham to investigate Batman...and that it was cut...it so hurts his character and his motivations. Supposedly there is a scene where he interviews people at a Gotham prison who were victims of the Batman.

I really feel like the rumours that WB wanted more Batman were not bullshit, only it wasn't reshoots, but they literally just gutted Clark's scenes to put a heavier slant on Bruce.

I hope there is some sort of connective scene included between him being in the arctic and suddenly being available to catch Lois midfall. That to me is the biggest 'wtf?' of the whole movie.